Once Saved Always Saved

TokiEl

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I'm still confused about the Catholics. If a Catholic genuinely believes that Jesus died on the cross for his sins, that he rose afterwards, and that humans are sinners how could they not be saved? Are those not the core tenets of being a Christian and saved?
Phil 3 17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern.

18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.
 






Lisa

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If you think about it... being deceived by the evil one is what set it all into motion, back in the garden--> God reconciling us to Himself...

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.

Not that it was a good thing-- obviously, it wasn't. It does, however, show the lengths to which our God will go, to pull us 'from the snare of the fowler... and from the deadly plague.'

'Because he loves me, I will deliver him...'
Sure, but what does that have to do with the Spirit telling us that some will fall away from the faith? Even Jesus says that many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. The falling away is going to get ugly.

For me, if you fall away from the faith..don’t you have to be of the faith first?

Which then makes Hebrews 6:4-6 really stand out.
 






elsbet

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Sure, but what does that have to do with the Spirit telling us that some will fall away from the faith? Even Jesus says that many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. The falling away is going to get ugly.

For me, if you fall away from the faith..don’t you have to be of the faith first?

Which then makes Hebrews 6:4-6 really stand out.
This isn't an easy verse, the way it is worded.

If we assume it is speaking of someone who is possessed of the holy spirit, we would have to believe the doctrines of demons are more powerful than the spirit of God, who inhabits us. We know they are not.

I can hear someone saying to this, Yeah, but if you...

We are told, in no uncertain terms, that Salvation is not of ourselves that no one may boast-- nothing can snatch us from His hand-- His Grace is sufficient. There is no verse that supports an exception.

So... in addition to the explanation from @Red Sky at Morning about the Jews returning to the sacrificial system, the law, etc., I think the parable of the good soil v. the bad or rocky soil may fit, here.

HEBREWS 6:4 CAN WE LOSE OUR SALVATION?

MARK 4:2-9

And He began teaching them many things in parables, and in His teaching He was saying to them, “Listen! Behold, the one sowing went out to sow. And it came to pass as he sowed, some fell along the road, and the birds came and devoured it.

And other fell upon the rocky place where it had not much soil, and it sprang up immediately, because of not having depth of soil. And after the sun rose, it was scorched, and because of not having root, it withered away.


And other fell among the thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

And other fell into the good soil and began yielding fruit, growing up and increasing, and one bearing thirtyfold, and one sixty, and one a hundred.”

And He was saying, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

What do you think?

...
 






TokiEl

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We are told, in no uncertain terms, that Salvation is not of ourselves that no one may boast-- nothing can snatch us from His hand-- His Grace is sufficient. There is no verse that supports an exception.
There are a lot of verses where Jesus and the apostles warn christians.
 






TokiEl

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Well you posted one... but there are many more.

Luke 8 11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of [g]temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.


Hebrews 3 12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.


1 Tim 4 Now the Spirit [a]expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
 






elsbet

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Well you posted one... but there are many more.

Luke 8 11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of [g]temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.


Hebrews 3 12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.


1 Tim 4 Now the Spirit [a]expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
I'll address Hebrews, since the other two are the subject of the previous post.

However, the thought is not posted in its entirety-- only verses 12 and 13 are included. The conclusion is this, v. 16-19...

For who were those having heard, rebelled, but not all those having come out of Egypt by the leading of Moses? And with whom was He indignant forty years, if not with those having sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they shall not enter into His rest, if not to those having disobeyed?​
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.

This is referring to those who did not believe, in spite of participation in the exodus, serving as a witness to the parting of the Red Sea and having their enemies crushed, through no effort of their own. That is a great description of the people who would 'fall away' in Hebrews 6:4.

So, thanks for that. :)
 






TokiEl

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And to whom did He swear that they shall not enter into His rest, if not to those having disobeyed?
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.
You see disobedience is unbelief.
 






TokiEl

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Nope.
The disobedience was due to their lack of belief, in this situation-- only a symptom. Storing up manna, when God told them not to, etc. Unless you believe God couldn't know such a thing..?
Yes.

Disobedience is unbelief... and obedience is belief.

I know this is where the shepherde and many modern christians disagree... but the shepherde is always right.
 






Tidal

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..I talked with a mormon woman who didn’t grow up mormon, she was a baptist....but became a mormon after they came to her door. She read their book to try to refute them and ended up believing their book..
The poor dumb woman turned to Mormonism and fulfilled this prophecy-
"The time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear" (2 Tim 4:3)

Mormonism is rotten and satanic to the core..: :eek:
"Whoever thinks the Bible is sufficient and infallible are fools" (Book of Mormon II Nephi 29:3-10)
 






Tidal

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It's an immature attitude to claim that one is already saved. It's infantile... it's what baby milk christians are prone to do.
Yes, you can always spot the christians who think they're saved,, they walk around with big silly grins like crackheads..:)
No true christian automatically assumes they're saved; even the great Paul was man enough to admit-
"My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time" (1 Cor 4:3)
 






elsbet

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Yes, you can always spot the christians who think they're saved,, they walk around with big silly grins like crackheads..:)
No true christian automatically assumes they're saved; even the great Paul was man enough to admit-
"My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time" (1 Cor 4:3)
Hmm... in context, it seems he is saying something a little different.
So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. Now it is required of stewards that they be found faithful.​
I care very little, however, if I am judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself.​
YOUR QUOTE BEGINS HERE-> 1 CORINTHIANS 4:4--
4My conscience is clear, but that does not vindicate me. It is the Lord who judges me.​
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts.​

It seems Paul is simply saying that no man-- himself, included-- is his judge. It is God who justifies us-- and we should withhold judgment of others, as well, since God will bring to light the motives of men’s hearts.
Js.
 






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For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,
These are people who have heard the gospel, considered it, but went back to their own ways of sinful lust and pride, They are like the swine that has been cleaned and return to the mud they were cleaned from. The Gospel is as a washing of water to the soul, The Truth revealed, Hearing the gospel and receiving it with joy, but was planted in rocky soil and never took root. They are responsible for how they react to the Gospel. They never repented, therefore they were never regenerated (received the Holy Spirit), but have no excuse because they were given the way of how to escape the pollution of this world through the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, But went back to their own ways.
 






Lyfe

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1John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1John 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I am under the belief that those who fall away never received the circumcision of the holy spirit and thus fell away because they were subject to the power of the spirit of the world(1 Corinthians 2:12). In John 6 it says those who walked with him no more BELIEVED NOT, but if anyone truly believes they are indwelt by the holy ghost and receive salvation. They fell away because they loved the world and the love of the father was not in them, but the love of the father can only indwell someone through the holy spirit(Romans 5:5). Not that we loved God on our own when we were lost, but we can only love him through the holy spirit. In 1 John 2 it says those who went out from among them were never one of them. Those who remained had the holy spirit and received it through genuine belief.

1John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
 






Lyfe

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1John 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

How can we know truth? We have to be indwelt by the spirit of truth(the holy spirit).

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
 






Lyfe

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Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

FFW

Jude 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jude 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jude 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

So I don't believe those who fall away were regenerated and tasted of the holy spirit.
 






Lisa

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This isn't an easy verse, the way it is worded.

If we assume it is speaking of someone who is possessed of the holy spirit, we would have to believe the doctrines of demons are more powerful than the spirit of God, who inhabits us. We know they are not.

I can hear someone saying to this, Yeah, but if you...

We are told, in no uncertain terms, that Salvation is not of ourselves that no one may boast-- nothing can snatch us from His hand-- His Grace is sufficient. There is no verse that supports an exception.

So... in addition to the explanation from @Red Sky at Morning about the Jews returning to the sacrificial system, the law, etc., I think the parable of the good soil v. the bad or rocky soil may fit, here.

HEBREWS 6:4 CAN WE LOSE OUR SALVATION?

MARK 4:2-9

And He began teaching them many things in parables, and in His teaching He was saying to them, “Listen! Behold, the one sowing went out to sow. And it came to pass as he sowed, some fell along the road, and the birds came and devoured it.

And other fell upon the rocky place where it had not much soil, and it sprang up immediately, because of not having depth of soil. And after the sun rose, it was scorched, and because of not having root, it withered away.

And other fell among the thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

And other fell into the good soil and began yielding fruit, growing up and increasing, and one bearing thirtyfold, and one sixty, and one a hundred.”

And He was saying, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

What do you think?

...
My whole hang up with it Elsbet, is the words falling away from the faith..which means you had to be part of the faith in the first place doesn’t it? And having been made partakers of the Holy Spirit...to my knowledge..only Christians can be made partakers of the Holy Spirit..so it seems to me that these verses are talking about Christians. I think the verses you bring up...were those people made partakers of the Holy Spirit? Were they thought to be in the faith? If not..then those verses don‘t count towards refuting the verses I brought up.


Jesus talks about people falling away...many will fall away and betray one another Matt. 24:10. Peter talks about it..if everyone falls away, I never will Matt. 26:33. Its those verses that I think talk about something people don’t really want to think is possible. The funny thing is..once I noticed those verses I noticed other ones with if’s in them. Like if you abide in Me and My words abide in you John 15:7 if we are once saved always saved...why would Jesus say if? Isn’t it a given..that we will abide in Him once we started to? Or does it matter if we still abide in Him we are osas?

I know we can shrink back to destruction...Heb. 10:39 And the cherry on top for me...if those verses didn’t do it..why warn us of false teachers or false prophets? Why would that ever even matter? If you can’t lose your salvation...it doesn’t matter what we believe does it?

I guess that’s my conundrum..and the verses that people bring up don’t really negate the fact that the Holy Spirit explicitly says that some will fall away from the faith in the later times. To me that is so cut and dried...and you have verses in Hebrews that tell us that if you fall away you aren’t osas on top of it. I also think that if people actually thought that there was a danger in falling away..of following the wrong way...they might be more alert for bad theology or false teachers? They might be more inclined to search the scriptures like the Bereans and not fall for what anyone says...not follow just anyone or think that they can follow any teacher and keep the good while throwing out the bad...which could work..or maybe you might end up following the bad anyway. That’s why I stick to the Bible as my words of truth and don’t really lark about in false texts like the book of enoch etc...Ya never know what it is that you might take in that isn’t good..and that little leaven can leaven the whole lump of dough Gal. 5:8-9 Or the other warning is that there is a narrow path and only a few find it..the others go the broad path where everyone goes. Matt 7:13-14

Anyway, thanks for talking with me.
 






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