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A.J.

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These are deep and mysterious things, but if we rightly divide the word, truth will be known and God willing experientially known....


Matthew 13 King James Version (KJV)
13 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
 






A.J.

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I really don’t like the term, OSAS, cause presumption and complacency are consistent threats to the faith and vitality of the Christian. It’s not about what we are but rather who He is. God prefer we remain thirsty and filled in Christ rather then place faith in our security. The security is merely the byproduct, not the story. It’s why I don’t debate these things anymore. There’s humility in the doctrine but often not in the debate.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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The book of revelation constantly uses the word overcome, but how do we overcome...

1John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

I really believe that to adopt the belief that a born again child of God can fall away is to undermine the love of God. What parent would let their child perish, yet God is much more abounding in love and power than an earthly parent. We overcome by the spirit that is in us, because greater is he in us than he that is in the world.
I have mentioned this before but the context of Hebrews 6 is specifically Jewish, and involves Jewish converts potentially returning to the sacrificial system (I.e. making the atonement of Jesus appear insufficient to cover sin).

Andy Woods unpacks the idea very well here:-


To read the Hebrews passage otherwise leads to the conclusion that anyone who “falls away” at any point, to any degree CANNOT be restored. As vast Christian experience and testimony argues with this interpretation, I favour the explanation above! ^
 






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What do you think the assurance of salvation is based on @Infinityloop ?
There is no "assurance" of salvation in the sense you say - as that breeds pride, contempt, arrogance, ignorance, gluttony, boastfulness, vanity and removes all of one's personal accountability.

Salvation is far deeper than your religious label or your skin color like you seem to think. It is a matter of the heart, the mind, of one's actions and how one strives for the good. There will be many 'born again' Christians in hell, just like every other religious group. If you're not able to understand that, then you haven't grown into adult spirituality yet.
 






Lyfe

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Its all throughout scripture that God desires to comfort his people and that they be at peace and trust and wait on him for deliverance. Its the fathers good pleasure to give the kingdom. This assurance is a token of Gods love for his people that he desires they take rest in him. We are called to trust in the father for ultimate deliverance, even the deliverance of being delivered from this present evil age. God wants us to know....

1John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
 






Lyfe

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There has always been the ilk tho that would rather their salvation be about works so they may boast before men rather than the goodness of and grace of God
 






Kung Fu

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There has always been the ilk tho that would rather their salvation be about works so they may boast before men rather than the goodness of and grace of God
It has always been about faith and works. One without the other is meaningless. Now tell us do you only believe in faith or a combination of both?
 






Lyfe

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It is God by his spirit that works in us to bear fruit.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

Jesus said that he can do nothing of himself, but it is the father that works in him to bear fruit
 






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Always good to remember Matthew 7:21-23:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
 






Lyfe

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Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 






Lyfe

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Always good to remember Matthew 7:21-23:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Yes, sadly this will be the fate of many who professed to be Christians
 






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Always good to also recall Matthew 5:17-20 as well:
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law/Torah or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law/Torah until everything is accomplished.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law/Torah, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
 






Lyfe

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Its the father that works in the vessel of the saint to bring about his will upon earth. This is the doctrine of regeneration in which God through the holy spirit brings inward renewal and transformation of the inner man.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Through receiving Christ man is indwelt by the holy spirit and it is the spirit of Christ that dwells within us.
 






elsbet

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As a saved person, you should now glorify and praise God for His eternal gift to you. Lose your salvation? Not on your life, and not on the life of Jesus Christ!

It’s much more simple than the author realizes..just fall away from the faith..

Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
‭‭​

Or shrink back..

Hebrews‬ ‭10:38-39‬ ‭
BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.​
‭‭
I think the author does a nice job of illustrating the impossibility of removing our own salvation.

Good find. ☆

I think the falling away is not what it seems, on the surface-- I cannot fathom that. To be given even a taste--> it would be irresistible.
 






Lisa

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I am personally of the belief that all those who fall away were never regenerated in the first place, or born again of the spirit of God. This passage got my attention a while back.

John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
John 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
John 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 6:66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

I used to go back and forth with OSAS, but ultimately came to the conclusion that if one is truly born again and become a new creature in Christ and been adopted as a son then it would be profoundly hard to fall away, which is why I believe that those who fell away were never regenerate. The Bible says we are sealed until the day of redemption and that no man can pluck us out of the fathers hands. Even in the book of 1st Corinthians there was a man among them that slept with his fathers wife and was chastised with the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit may live.

There are times I have backslid, but think about what it would take for someone who is a son of God and born by the spirit of God to fall away. If you have ever backslidden as a Christian you know it is a miserable place to be, because the whole time you are grieving yourself by grieving the spirit of God. To remain in a constant place of grieving the spirit of God is to remain in a place of great sadness and torment to the Christian. Not only that, but Gods word promises to chastise us in the book of Hebrews. He chastises us as his son.

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?


In order for a born again Christian to completely fall away he would have to endure and than somehow bypass not only his own nature as a new creation that shares the same disposition of sin as God, but also bypass Gods rod of correction as a loving father. I have backslid allot, but I have never been able to fall away to the point where I was able to bypass living in godly sorrow and a constant state of grieving the holy spirit, and then on top of it bypassing Gods rod of correction. He goes out and searches for that one sheep that is lost while leaving the 99 behind. If you truly belong to Christ than God will find you. Recently I was in a place where I could no longer feel conviction over sin, I couldnt feel God, nothing, but then one day in a near death experience God had visited me and brought me to repentance. Sometimes thats what it takes and sometimes thats what God allows.
They are Christians.
Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.


‭‭‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.
 






Lisa

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I have mentioned this before but the context of Hebrews 6 is specifically Jewish, and involves Jewish converts potentially returning to the sacrificial system (I.e. making the atonement of Jesus appear insufficient to cover sin).

Andy Woods unpacks the idea very well here:-


To read the Hebrews passage otherwise leads to the conclusion that anyone who “falls away” at any point, to any degree CANNOT be restored. As vast Christian experience and testimony argues with this interpretation, I favour the explanation above! ^
Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

The only people that can be made partakers of the Holy Spirit are Christians.
 






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