On the Trinity:

[TokiEl]

What about John 20:17?

John 20 17Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ”


What about it ?

The composition of God is threefold.

The Father is God and the Word/Son is God and the Holy spirit is God.


You may not understand it... but this is basic bible truths.

 

[bible_student]

​

Spoiler

ALL have sinned...​

ALL fall short...​

... there IS NOT a man who sinneth not​

-and-​

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.​

​

Of the persons on earth-- past and present-- there is a 100% Rate of Failure by man to 'keep the law'. To say we couldn't is correct because there is no evidence otherwise. No offense intended, either... I'm a little amazed you think it is possible.

To claim that we couldn't, would be to claim that we cannot do what God Commands. That would therefore be claiming that God unjust.

Spoiler

This is not what the Bible says:

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Isaiah
42:24 Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the "I AM", He against Whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in His Ways, neither were they obedient unto His Law.
42:25 Therefore He hath poured upon him the fury of His anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him (Israel) on fire round about, yet he understood not; and it burned him, yet he took [it] not to heart (did not learn from it).

The goal for all should be to keep the Commandments (1 John 2:6):

1 John
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us.
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the atonement for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, IF we keep His Commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth NOT His Commandments, is a LIAR, and the truth is NOT in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

When the disciples asked Jesus what God's Will was for them, they were told:

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven IS perfect." (Matthew 5:48)

"Jesus’ true teachings are designed to “Reverse the Fall of Man”, by being “Born again as your spirit (Being - John 3:5-6)” – your real self; keeping the COMMANDments; DOING God’s Will (learning directly from God how to be perfect - like God, in His eyes, not man’s eyes)." - TWH 4:18

We have all sinned, but yet the goal set before us is nevertheless to put away sin and to learn to do well - Isaiah 1:17 etc.

Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the Commandments and Ordinances of the Lord blameless.

 

[TokiEl]

It'd be a fascinating accomplishment that Lisa would've figured out what no Torah expert or scholar prior to Christian revelation was able to. But taking into consideration that this is possibly unlikely, I asked for pre-Christian texts that interpreted these verses in Genesis as God being "3 but 1", before the doctrine of the Trinity was established by ... wait for it ... the Catholic Church.

There is a timeline in the Old Testament in the book of Daniel until the Messiah.

Besides there are several prophetic verses about the Messiah.


So Torah scholars must have been hardened and blinded by God from acknowledging their Messiah.

 

[elsbet]

To claim that we couldn't, would be to claim that we cannot do what God Commands. That would therefore be claiming that God unjust.

We have all sinned, but yet the goal set before us is nevertheless to put away sin and to learn to do well - Isaiah 1:17 etc.

Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the Commandments and Ordinances of the Lord blameless.

But not perfectly, as noted in Isaiah, above.

Unless you believe otherwise-- do you think the crucifixion was unnecessary?

 

[bible_student]

But not perfectly, as noted in Isaiah, above.

The Isaiah passage we can see is talking about the collective nation of the 12 Tribes of Jacob/Israel.
The verse in Luke however speaks of individuals. Jesus told the disciples "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven IS perfect." (Matthew 5:48)

Unless you believe otherwise-- do you think the crucifixion was unnecessary?

Because Israel did not keep their promise to God (to keep The Covenant and be His demonstration people to the rest of the world) and they then also refused to accept His Son's Sovereignty and return to His Laws and their duty under the Covenant at the time of Jesus, the crucifixion was therefore made necessary (caused by Israel), as the only alternative possible to everyone (of the whole nation) dying as a punishment, due their breach of contract (broken promise) and their refusal to uphold their end of the Contract with God and accept His Son.

The crucifixion of Jesus (the Lamb of God) was then the only alternative left other than having to execute the entire nation under the penalty clauses of The Law (the curses) that are written in the Old Covenant (Contract).

If Israel however had kept the Covenant to begin with, or, if they had at Christ's appearance accepted His Sovereignty and at that time agreed to return to God's Laws and keeping The Covenant, then there would have been no reason for the crucifixion to have needed to happen, at all.

The only reason it happened, is because of Israel's failure and refusal to keep their promise to God, which was to uphold their part of the agreement (Contract) that was made (and signed) between them and God and to accept His Son.

Spoiler

Why did Christ have to be crucified?

THE PASSOVER - 1500 B.C.- foreshadowing the Second Passover.

The Israelites were in Egypt, in slavery, under the rule and laws of evil men. The word British is Hebrew and means the "People of the Covenant"; that means, the "People Israel of the Covenant".

The Passover was where the "angel of death" passed over the houses of the Israelites and killed the first-born of Egypt, from EVERY household including the pharaoh's (the king). It foreshadows the Second Passover because a lamb was sacrificed and its blood used to paint around the door of every Israelite house, to save them from death, just as the death of THE "Lamb of God" - Jesus and His blood, saved the entire nation from death at Passover, 1500 years later.

The Passover and the lamb's blood was the thing, that brought about, the end of 400 years of slavery and oppression, under the rules and laws of man, to FREEDOM under the Rule of God; His Laws and Economics, given to Moses and the British (Israel) people at Sinai.

THE SECOND PASSOVER - Wednesday 21 st April, 34 A.D. - NOT Easter of 33 AD.

It was the Second Passover because the "Lamb" died, instead of the entire nation, who were under "The Curse of The Law". What curse and why? The Law was not a curse but a blessing, to all those who kept it (God's Law, not man's) and was a "school-teacher to bring men to Christ" - the Head-"Master".

So what was this Curse of The Law, that had condemned the entire nation to death?

As the British (Israel) left Egypt and slavery, hoping to never become slaves again - "Rule Britannia" (think about the words - you all know them) - they swore that they would never kneel to any man, EVER again, only to God Who had given them freedom from the rule of evil men. BUT, a human's word and memory is cheap and short.

At Sinai, in Horeb, Moses was given God's Laws; Statutes; Judgements; Agricultural and Economic Policies, so that the British (Israel) could live in prosperity and freedom, from oppression under selfish men's laws and economic policies.

The entire British nation accepted the contract (Covenant) that had been made, at first, with Abraham their father because he did not withhold his only son, the "miracle" child Isaac, on top of Mt. Moriah.

Under The Covenant (contract), the British swore a solemnly binding oath, that you would KEEP and DO everything that God had commanded to Moses, FOR EVER and would be God's servant nation, His wife and faithful to the marriage-contract (The Covenant) and His Demonstration People to the rest of the world.

That demonstration, was, to show the rest of the world, how wonderful it was to live under God's Laws and Economics, as opposed to men's evil systems (all of them including "so-called" democracy).

Under the terms of the marriage-contract God gave the British (Israel) the "Land Flowing with Milk and Honey" - the milk of human kindness and sweetness - the land of Israel.

He said that as long as they kept His ways and did not commit adultery (unfaithfulness to Him or each other), He would bring the sun and rain in their seasons and He would make their crops grow abundantly and they would want for nothing. They would live in peace and safety and be happy and prosperous, with no need for crime, as there would be no poverty and everyone would love and help each other. ("Love your neighbour as much as you love yourself").

The idea behind this, was, so that the gentile nations, outside of Israel, would see how wonderful it was to live under God's system and want it for themselves.

They would have two options and would choose the wrong one first, as humans always do, and that would be to try to take Israel by force and steal what they had. BUT, under The Covenant (marriage-contract), God had promised the British that He (as a husband protects his wife) would fight their enemies FOR them, and defeat them and that one British man would chase a thousand and they would flee in terror.

So, then, the gentiles would have to take option two - "if you can't beat them, join them" and they would come to the British (Israel) and ask if they could join them. Whereupon, they would be told, yes, IF they agreed to keep The Covenant too. This was to be "the grafting into Israel of the Gentiles", so that, little by little, the borders of Israel would enlarge to take in these gentile nations and eventually the whole world would become the Kingdom of Israel and God's Kingdom on Earth, with justice; freedom; safety and prosperity for everyone, not just the strong, powerful and rich, like under men's evil laws.

However, they broke their promise and The Covenant and allowed greedy; selfish; evil people, from amongst their own nation, to make up their own laws; economics and customs, to make the COMMANDMENTS of God of no effect. Because of this going away from God's Laws and Economic Policy, given in the Books of Moses (the 1st five Books of the Bible), and turning to man's laws in the "Talmud", the people became slaves again. This time they were not the slaves of foreigners but of the rich people whom they had allowed to make up laws to cheat them and make them poor and themselves rich - people from within their own nation.

So they had broken the contract and were not giving God's Demonstration, as they had promised, and would not be able to help God to bring the Gentiles into the Kingdom, as there was nothing worth joining. The system had become no better than a gentile one.

The curse then came into force. Under The Covenant were blessings for keeping the contract and penalty clauses or "Curses" for breaking the contract. As they had broken the contract they came under The Curse (penalty clause) and that curse was death, for the whole nation. They had already sold themselves back into slavery, and poverty and death was to follow.

So, once again the nation needed to be freed from slavery and death, just like in the Passover in Egypt, 1500 years before.

As The Covenant came into being because Abraham did not withhold his "miracle" son Isaac, the ONLY way to save the entire nation from death, was for God to annul (cancel) the contract and the ONLY way He could do that, was by sacrificing His own "miracle" Son from the "Virgin-birth", unless the nation accepted His Son's Sovereignty and returned to His Laws and their duty under the Old Covenant, accepted at Sinai, in Horeb.

This they refused to do, so the contract had to be cancelled and the only way to do that was for God's Son to be sacrificed, instead of the whole nation.

The New Contract (Testament) then came into existence for those who wanted "Life" and freedom. It was necessary to sacrifice THE "Lamb" to free the people from slavery, poverty and death under the curse and under men's evil laws in the Jewish Talmud, and return them to freedom, under God's Laws, in the Bible, once again; under the New Covenant (Testament).

http://jahtruth.net/passnot.htm

 

[elsbet]

The Isaiah passage we can see is talking about the collective nation of the 12 Tribes of Jacob/Israel.
The verse in Luke however speaks of individuals. Jesus told the disciples "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven IS perfect." (Matthew 5:48)

Because Israel did not keep their promise to God (to keep The Covenant and be His demonstration people to the rest of the world) and they then also refused to accept His Son's Sovereignty and return to His Laws and their duty under the Covenant at the time of Jesus, the crucifixion was therefore made necessary (caused by Israel), as the only alternative possible to everyone (of the whole nation) dying as a punishment, due their breach of contract (broken promise) and their refusal to uphold their end of the Contract with God and accept His Son.

The crucifixion of Jesus (the Lamb of God) was then the only alternative left other than having to execute the entire nation under the penalty clauses of The Law (the curses) that are written in the Old Covenant (Contract).

If Israel however had kept the Covenant to begin with, or, if they had at Christ's appearance accepted His Sovereignty and at that time agreed to return to God's Laws and keeping The Covenant, then there would have been no reason for the crucifixion to have needed to happen, at all.

The only reason it happened, is because of Israel's failure and refusal to keep their promise to God, which was to uphold their part of the agreement (Contract) that was made (and signed) between them and God and to accept His Son.

Spoiler

Why did Christ have to be crucified?

THE PASSOVER - 1500 B.C.- foreshadowing the Second Passover.

The Israelites were in Egypt, in slavery, under the rule and laws of evil men. The word British is Hebrew and means the "People of the Covenant"; that means, the "People Israel of the Covenant".

The Passover was where the "angel of death" passed over the houses of the Israelites and killed the first-born of Egypt, from EVERY household including the pharaoh's (the king). It foreshadows the Second Passover because a lamb was sacrificed and its blood used to paint around the door of every Israelite house, to save them from death, just as the death of THE "Lamb of God" - Jesus and His blood, saved the entire nation from death at Passover, 1500 years later.

The Passover and the lamb's blood was the thing, that brought about, the end of 400 years of slavery and oppression, under the rules and laws of man, to FREEDOM under the Rule of God; His Laws and Economics, given to Moses and the British (Israel) people at Sinai.

THE SECOND PASSOVER - Wednesday 21 st April, 34 A.D. - NOT Easter of 33 AD.

It was the Second Passover because the "Lamb" died, instead of the entire nation, who were under "The Curse of The Law". What curse and why? The Law was not a curse but a blessing, to all those who kept it (God's Law, not man's) and was a "school-teacher to bring men to Christ" - the Head-"Master".

So what was this Curse of The Law, that had condemned the entire nation to death?

As the British (Israel) left Egypt and slavery, hoping to never become slaves again - "Rule Britannia" (think about the words - you all know them) - they swore that they would never kneel to any man, EVER again, only to God Who had given them freedom from the rule of evil men. BUT, a human's word and memory is cheap and short.

At Sinai, in Horeb, Moses was given God's Laws; Statutes; Judgements; Agricultural and Economic Policies, so that the British (Israel) could live in prosperity and freedom, from oppression under selfish men's laws and economic policies.

The entire British nation accepted the contract (Covenant) that had been made, at first, with Abraham their father because he did not withhold his only son, the "miracle" child Isaac, on top of Mt. Moriah.

Under The Covenant (contract), the British swore a solemnly binding oath, that you would KEEP and DO everything that God had commanded to Moses, FOR EVER and would be God's servant nation, His wife and faithful to the marriage-contract (The Covenant) and His Demonstration People to the rest of the world.

That demonstration, was, to show the rest of the world, how wonderful it was to live under God's Laws and Economics, as opposed to men's evil systems (all of them including "so-called" democracy).

Under the terms of the marriage-contract God gave the British (Israel) the "Land Flowing with Milk and Honey" - the milk of human kindness and sweetness - the land of Israel.

He said that as long as they kept His ways and did not commit adultery (unfaithfulness to Him or each other), He would bring the sun and rain in their seasons and He would make their crops grow abundantly and they would want for nothing. They would live in peace and safety and be happy and prosperous, with no need for crime, as there would be no poverty and everyone would love and help each other. ("Love your neighbour as much as you love yourself").

The idea behind this, was, so that the gentile nations, outside of Israel, would see how wonderful it was to live under God's system and want it for themselves.

They would have two options and would choose the wrong one first, as humans always do, and that would be to try to take Israel by force and steal what they had. BUT, under The Covenant (marriage-contract), God had promised the British that He (as a husband protects his wife) would fight their enemies FOR them, and defeat them and that one British man would chase a thousand and they would flee in terror.

So, then, the gentiles would have to take option two - "if you can't beat them, join them" and they would come to the British (Israel) and ask if they could join them. Whereupon, they would be told, yes, IF they agreed to keep The Covenant too. This was to be "the grafting into Israel of the Gentiles", so that, little by little, the borders of Israel would enlarge to take in these gentile nations and eventually the whole world would become the Kingdom of Israel and God's Kingdom on Earth, with justice; freedom; safety and prosperity for everyone, not just the strong, powerful and rich, like under men's evil laws.

However, they broke their promise and The Covenant and allowed greedy; selfish; evil people, from amongst their own nation, to make up their own laws; economics and customs, to make the COMMANDMENTS of God of no effect. Because of this going away from God's Laws and Economic Policy, given in the Books of Moses (the 1st five Books of the Bible), and turning to man's laws in the "Talmud", the people became slaves again. This time they were not the slaves of foreigners but of the rich people whom they had allowed to make up laws to cheat them and make them poor and themselves rich - people from within their own nation.

So they had broken the contract and were not giving God's Demonstration, as they had promised, and would not be able to help God to bring the Gentiles into the Kingdom, as there was nothing worth joining. The system had become no better than a gentile one.

The curse then came into force. Under The Covenant were blessings for keeping the contract and penalty clauses or "Curses" for breaking the contract. As they had broken the contract they came under The Curse (penalty clause) and that curse was death, for the whole nation. They had already sold themselves back into slavery, and poverty and death was to follow.

So, once again the nation needed to be freed from slavery and death, just like in the Passover in Egypt, 1500 years before.

As The Covenant came into being because Abraham did not withhold his "miracle" son Isaac, the ONLY way to save the entire nation from death, was for God to annul (cancel) the contract and the ONLY way He could do that, was by sacrificing His own "miracle" Son from the "Virgin-birth", unless the nation accepted His Son's Sovereignty and returned to His Laws and their duty under the Old Covenant, accepted at Sinai, in Horeb.

This they refused to do, so the contract had to be cancelled and the only way to do that was for God's Son to be sacrificed, instead of the whole nation.

The New Contract (Testament) then came into existence for those who wanted "Life" and freedom. It was necessary to sacrifice THE "Lamb" to free the people from slavery, poverty and death under the curse and under men's evil laws in the Jewish Talmud, and return them to freedom, under God's Laws, in the Bible, once again; under the New Covenant (Testament).

http://jahtruth.net/passnot.htm

Wrong-o

... and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee -- the head, and thou dost bruise him -- the heel.'​

GENESIS 3:15​

​

​

EDIT
I forgot you were into that Jahtruth thing. I'm sorry you wandered into it-- I can see how it might appeal in some ways, but this that we're discussing goes back to the beginning, long before Israel arrived on the scene.

​

 

[bible_student]

Wrong-o

... and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee -- the head, and thou dost bruise him -- the heel.'​

GENESIS 3:15​

​

​

EDIT
I forgot you were into that Jahtruth thing. I'm sorry you wandered into it-- I can see how it might appeal in some ways, but this that we're discussing goes back to the beginning, long before Israel arrived on the scene.

​

We started out by talking about whether it says people couldn't, or wouldn't live by God's Laws.

In Scripture, God says very plainly that they wouldn't (they were unwilling).

We are also given many examples of people throughout the past, who were willing (would) do what God asks and for this reason they were called righteous, upright, blameless, they walked with God, etc.

That by itself shows how church doctrine (which says that God is mistaken, because people couldn't possibly do it) to be deeply in the wrong.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the Prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children (Sura 6:92) together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

Again, we cans see how it says "would not" rather than could not.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven IS perfect.

Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying unGodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and Godly, in this present world;

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Titus :12 Teaching us that, denying unGodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and Godly, in this present world;

Titus 2:12 context....

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.



*One of my favourite verses!

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven IS perfect.

How is such perfection attained?

Hebrews 1

Christ’s Death Perfects the Sanctified

11And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

15But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,

16“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

 

[bible_student]

Titus 2:12 context....

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

View attachment 27186

*One of my favourite verses!

So in other words it is saying that we have to be striving for righteousness (verse 12) in the here and now (this present world) while we look for that blessed hope (that is yet to come),

1 Thessalonians
5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Philippians
2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Colossians
1:23 IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

So evidently, one has to strive for salvation, in the here and now (press toward the mark, work out your own salvation, putting on for a helmet the hope of salvation, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world) and not be moved away from the hope of the gospel.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

So in other words it is saying that we have to be striving for righteousness (verse 12) in the here and now (this present world) while we look for that blessed hope (that is yet to come),

1 Thessalonians
5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Philippians
2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Colossians
1:23 IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

So evidently, one has to strive for salvation, in the here and now (press toward the mark, work out your own salvation, putting on for a helmet the hope of salvation, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world) and not be moved away from the hope of the gospel.

Some time ago (!) John Westley went through a spiritual shift in understanding. When it comes to the Gospel, you see it, you can’t “unsee” it.

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/kanyes-new-album-jesus-is-king-is-out.6539/page-3#post-244005

God bless.

 

[bible_student]

Some time ago (!) John Westley went through a spiritual shift in understanding. When it comes to the Gospel, you see it, you can’t “unsee” it.

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/kanyes-new-album-jesus-is-king-is-out.6539/page-3#post-244005

God bless.

Thank you and likewise.

Spoiler

From God Calling & God at Eventide, By Two Listeners; Edited by A.J. Russell

"A classic daily devotional for the encouragement of the Christian walk"

Overcomers. - January 29

Study the "Overcomeths" in the Revelation to My servant John, and you will see the tender intimacy with Me promised as a result of overcoming. To believe is not enough. To believe Me does truly involve the possession of Eternal Life, but that is a trust to use as truly as the talent of My story.

It is not only a something to be enjoyed.

Eternal life is a refreshing; reforming; enriching; uprooting; ennobling Power to be employed to the full by those to whom I entrust it.

In this My servants so often fail, and so miss the wonder of Communion with Me. Guard this Truth.


Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven IS perfect.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his WORKS.

Matthew 22 - Jesus' parable of the Wedding Feast

Matthew 25 - Jesus' parables of the 10 Virgins and talents

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Thank you and likewise.

Spoiler

From God Calling & God at Eventide, By Two Listeners; Edited by A.J. Russell

Overcomers. - January 29

Study the "Overcomeths" in the Revelation to My servant John, and you will see the tender intimacy with Me promised as a result of overcoming. To believe is not enough. To believe Me does truly involve the possession of Eternal Life, but that is a trust to use as truly as the talent of My story.

It is not only a something to be enjoyed.

Eternal life is a refreshing; reforming; enriching; uprooting; ennobling Power to be employed to the full by those to whom I entrust it.

In this My servants so often fail, and so miss the wonder of Communion with Me. Guard this Truth.


Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven IS perfect.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his WORKS.

Matthew 22 - Jesus' parable of the Wedding Feast

Matthew 25 - Jesus' parables of the 10 Virgins and talents

Faith and / or works?

An interesting analogy from the creator of light?

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/musing-on-faith-wave-or-particle.5429/

Light exists as a “particle” just as faith is a grain of mustard seed. It either simply exists or it doesn’t. Light behaves as a particle at its transmission and its reception. On the other hand, light is experienced as a wave.

The key point is that we experience it as a wave because it is also a particle.

In a related way, good works should follow the life of someone who is born again...

But it is the fact that you are born again that makes you a Christian, not the external works.

It took centuries for physicists to understand that light was both a particle AND a wave. The transformative nature of being born again leads to good works because that is what God has put within the new nature to do. Christians don’t do good works to be saved, they do them because they are saved.

1) “Ye must be born again”
2) If you are, you should WANT to do good works

 

[Axl888]

By your faith in Jesus Christ you are already saved and able to enter the gates of heaven, and by your good works you will be greatly rewarded at Bema judgment seat of Christ.

 

[Artful Revealer]

Genesis is "Pre-Christian."

Genesis doesn't contain the Trinity. It's not the royal we either. It refers to the Most High (head of the pantheon) and his Divine Assembly (consisting of his 70 sons / angels). This divine council / 70 sons are referred to later in Deuteronomy and the Psalms as well.

More interesting though is the obsession of non-trinitarians-- gnostics (a bit of a misnomer) and pagans-- to shut down belief in the triune nature of our God. If Jesus is not divine, then the whole salvation thing is sham <--- you could just cut to the chase. Would be a far more interesting conversation, I'm sure.

There was no nontrinitarianism in Early Christianity. There was no branch in early Christianity claiming Jesus Christ wasn't divine. These are but inventions of recent unitarian denominations trying to gain legitimacy.

And where do you get the idea that gnostics aren't trinitarian?

 

[Artful Revealer]

There is a timeline in the Old Testament in the book of Daniel until the Messiah.

Besides there are several prophetic verses about the Messiah.


So Torah scholars must have been hardened and blinded by God from acknowledging their Messiah.

Not talking about prophecy, but about whether or not there are pre-Christian texts that contemplate, theorize, address the triune nature of God.

There are none. The Trinity could only have been inferred from the Gospel, not the Torah.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

And where do you get the idea that gnostics aren't trinitarian?

I thought the Gnostics were fond of “Adoptionism”? If man can ascend to Godhood by twisting a few words in Mark, you make Christianity compatible with many other religions.

 

[Infinityloop]

I thought the Gnostics were fond of “Adoptionism”? If man can ascend to Godhood by twisting a few words in Mark, you make Christianity compatible with many other religions.

Which ones? you're just speaking vague.

There wasn't any group during early Christianity that identified themselves as "The Gnostics". It's just an pejorative umbrella term given by the Catholic church to forms of Christianity they didn't like. All taking place during a period where there was NO Bible canon, nor any proper thing called "Christianity" either, nonetheless.
If you still think that there was some single group named that, then, you really have to get to doing some reading.

Even the forms of Christianity that gradually ganged up to become the early pre-Catholic Church still had no single form or version yet.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Which ones? you're just speaking vague.

There wasn't any group during early Christianity that identified themselves as "The Gnostics". It's just an pejorative umbrella term given by the Catholic church to forms of Christianity they didn't like. All taking place during a period where there was NO Bible canon, nor any proper thing called "Christianity" either, nonetheless.
If you still think that there was some single group named that, then, you really have to get to doing some reading.

Even the forms of Christianity that gradually ganged up to become the early pre-Catholic Church still had no single form or version yet.

As John McEnroe famously said...

“You cannot be serious?!”

The best place to go to understand what the early Christians believed is the Book of Acts.
Narrowing down further, Stephen’s speech in Acts 7 is an excellent “big picture” presentation of Christian understanding.

By “rightly dividing” the Bible I.e. correctly applying an understanding of how God deals with people at different stages of history (nobody here is called to build an Ark or even avoid mixing materials in fabric) you can get a clear understanding of Gods message to us right now. Start with the Gospel of John and work out from there...

 

[Infinityloop]

As John McEnroe famously said...

“You cannot be serious?!”

The best place to go to understand what the early Christians believed is the Book of Acts.
Narrowing down further, Stephen’s speech in Acts 7 is an excellent “big picture” presentation of Christian understanding.

By “rightly dividing” the Bible I.e. correctly applying an understanding of how God deals with people at different stages of history (nobody here is called to build an Ark or even avoid mixing materials in fabric) you can get a clear understanding of Gods message to us right now. Start with the Gospel of John and work out from there...

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