On Protestantism:

Wigi

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Aug 24, 2017
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@Infinityloop
I try to understand something because you began with :

The Bible wasn't written by God though. People could easily be wrong about God though couldn't they?
Which means that for you, all the Bible is from human inspiration.
Then you say:
So were Michelangelo's paintings, so was any art inspired by awe of God, much poetry has been written inspired by God.
So, it's not solely human inspiration?
But you said:
I do believe that sacred divine authority exists, which is exactly why I reject Christianity
Why you don't want to believe the Bible?
 






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@Infinityloop
I try to understand something because you began with :



Which means that for you, all the Bible is from human inspiration.
No, it's that wasn't revealed to anyone (let alone the concept of canonization).
Many books in the Bible are supposed historical accounts of various figures, the Gospels are this as much as both books of Kings or Joshua. They have a clear narrative style, depicting things in a biographical sense.
Then other books in the Bible, such as the Psalms, the Ecclesiastes, the Proverbs, Job, Ruth, Song of Solomon and so forth are liturgy and wisdom literature.
Then we've got predominantly letters ("epistles") written from one person to an entire Church in most of the the New Testament, plus the vision texts (Ezekiel, Isaiah, Apocalypse of St John, Daniel etc).

The only Biblical books that truly have street-cred as Revelation in the serious sense, is contained in the Pentateuch (which itself is only the 'written Torah" and not the "Oral Torah"), seeing how Deuteronomy itself has particular direct significance (and that it is referred to everywhere in both 'canonical' and 'noncanonical' texts), not only to Moses himself and the Israelites but every single religion associated with the Abrahamic faith.
Other books in the Pentateuch such as Genesis, Exodus, Numbers etc are far more contentious.


Then you say:


So, it's not solely human inspiration?
Well the word 'inspired' itself doesn't connotate much. If you're looking for just 'inspiration by God', then many of the Catholic 'saints' have written extraordinary works in that field. I don't say this with sarcasm.

But you said:


Why you don't want to believe the Bible?
This is more of a misunderstanding of what my own views are (which is frankly not appropriate to discuss in detail for the time being), many books of the Bible are twice, three times, five times removed from Revelation and many stages very far from their historicity at that (like Genesis).
I don't regard any book of the Bible as authority but many books are relevant by connection of material and contents, not in any direct sense (with exception of Deuteronomy). This is all I can say on my own views for the time being. Bless you.
 






Wigi

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Aug 24, 2017
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No, it's that wasn't revealed to anyone
What do you mean by that?

If you're looking for just 'inspiration by God', then many of the Catholic 'saints' have written extraordinary works in that field
Does it mean that you think human inspiration and divine inspiration is one and the same because both can be flawed by inapropriate interpretation?

A divine inspiration is by definition a revelation since it's not the product of human thought.
 






Lisa

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So why not post an intelligent scholarly post, detailing the meaning of the word begotten, including the etymology of actual greek word that is translated as "begotten" in the original manuscript.
Why?
 






Lisa

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To lend some credence to your statement. It's called the art of discussion...you know, presenting facts and information to back up your beliefs and opinions. Oh yeah, I forgot you don't really know anyting about that, do you?
I presented the Bible, where I got my info from...
 






Red Sky at Morning

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@Red Sky at Morning has said a lot about that kind of stuff, so he would agree with me on that, in that divine and sacred authority doesn't come from nothing, if it does exist. (and I do believe that sacred divine authority exists, which is exactly why I reject Christianity)
lol - I can’t quite remember making that point
To lend some credence to your statement. It's called the art of discussion...you know, presenting facts and information to back up your beliefs and opinions. Oh yeah, I forgot you don't really know anyting about that, do you?
A couple of links to help the discussion along.

From the Textus Receptus:-

http://textus-receptus.com/wiki/John_3:16

and from the Greek,

https://biblehub.com/text/john/3-16.htm
 






Lisa

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Mar 13, 2017
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Interesting that you think assuming things, rather presenting facts and information, is a laughing matter.
I was laughing at your comment which I thought was funny...
 






DavidSon

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Jan 10, 2019
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I wish I had more free time so I could go over more of Lisa's posts. They always provide a good laugh. Keep them coming my old friend :D.
The return of a VC legend! I've read your posts from years ago, glad to see you visiting again. As you well know nothing ever changes here- you haven't missed much. :D
 






DavidSon

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Jan 10, 2019
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Great video:


also:


Another great one:

I watched all three. They're each approaching Protestantism from a different angle. The 1st was from a historical/theological perspective, the 2nd was with a scriptural/doctrinal comparison, and the 3rd is questioning from the aspect of logic and reason. I think some the 2nd video's arguments were only slightly less biased than who they're challenging... not feeling it. These were just mini-intros but I'm more interested in the other two speakers.

On the theme of individualism and personal revelation that grew out of Luther/Calvinism, I've been checking out the eras of the Great Awakenings:

Great Awakenings

"The First Great Awakening was a wave of religious enthusiasm among Protestants in the American colonies (1730-1755), emphasizing the traditional Reformed virtues of Godly preaching, rudimentary liturgy, and a deep sense of personal guilt and redemption by Christ Jesus. Historian Sydney E. Ahlstrom saw it as part of a "great international Protestant upheaval" that also created Pietism in Germany, the Evangelical Revival, and Methodism in England. It centered on reviving the spirituality of established congregations, and mostly affected Congregational, Presbyterian, Dutch Reformed, German Reformed, Baptist, and Methodist churches, while also spreading within the slave population. The Second Great Awakening (1790–1840), unlike the first, focused on the unchurched and sought to instill in them a deep sense of personal salvation as experienced in revival meetings. It also sparked the beginnings of Restorationist groups such as the Mormons and the Holiness movement. The Third Great Awakening began from 1857 and was most notable for taking the movement throughout the world, especially in English speaking countries. The final group to emerge from the "great awakenings" in North America was Pentecostalism, which had its roots in the Methodist, Wesleyan, and Holiness movements, and began in 1906 on Azusa Street, in Los Angeles. Pentecostalism would later lead to the Charismatic movement."

I'll be researching deeper into this era to really unwind and understand where the form of Christianity we see today has come from. From Wesely and Whitehead to the SBC, it's this period that cemented the Protestant concepts we see projected on a mass scale. It's worth having an honest discussion about.
 






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