"Not Real Christians"

[TokiEl]

See, as bizarre as it sounds to thank the people who got Jesus killed, you logically have to, if you're of the opinion that his creepy human sacrifice was needed to magically redeem everyone.

Jesus Christ is God in a human body.

So God paid the price for sins... so when a human repents then God forgives.

This is how it is.

 

[Lisa]

I've read the gospels. (Which common sense dictates cannot possibly be infallible since there are four versions.

What do you mean there are four versions? How many people remember the same things the same way?

I've read much of the rest, once upon a time, as much as I could stomach without puking.

Really? That’s a little dramatic don’t ya think?

I do like Revelations, no one seems to realize it's all one long series of mostly harmless metaphors.

It’s not that harmless...it’s literal enough to get that from reading it.

I'm chastising Christians who believe that "the Jews killed Jesus", and if those same Christians support Israel then I'm going to take a wild guess that it's because of Israel's supposed role in the end times, i.e., you love Israel because God plans to annihilate it. Yeah?

The Jews did want Him dead and had Him killed and their rejection of Jesus became gain for gentiles...but don’t worry the Jews will realize their mistake and know Jesus Christ as their messiah.

I think it’s more that God will bless those who bless Israel and Israel is still God’s chosen people who will again know God..why would I curse them then?

 

[Robin]

They took risks, sure, and paid the ultimate price. But if their plan had worked as they'd hoped, and they avoided martyrdom, they would have possessed religious mind control over millions before they died. That's power. Ultimately their plan did work, letting the gentiles join the club without having to do any work was a smashing success, and their version of Christianity captured the Roman Empire and dominated history for the next 2000 years.

You know, If I wasn't sure that you were speaking from a place of negative emotion before, I am now. Jesus' character is a study in humility. Never once did he give the command to consolidate power or religious influence, the disciples were warned that sharing the Gospel would result in tribulation and that they would be hated by the world. Their lives played out according to those words. What the Roman Empire did to co-opt and use Christianity as a political strong-arm has nothing to do with original belief system and all you have to do is read for yourself to see how theocratic oppression is diametrically opposed to what the book itself says.

 

[Robin]

Jesus told them to spread the good news, sure. To their fellow JEWS. Jesus never told them to increase the flock by massively lowering the bar to include non-Jews.

A bold statement.

Mark 16:15
"And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Whether they were fueled by a conscious quest for power (which you're right would be too cynical an interpretation) or an unconscious urge for power (more likely) or a pure desire to open the club to as many people as possible (generous), the result is the same.

That result does not effect the integrity of the message.

If I'm a corporate executive trying to expand the market share of a product spun off from an established brand that demands a lot from its customers, instead of encouraging prospective customers to pay the same old steep price and try on the burden, instead of explaining the complex instructions and promising they'll be rewarded for it in the end, I'll just make the product ridiculously simple and cheap and promise the same reward. Tada, the brand will skyrocket. Whether the apostles who decided you don't have to be a Jew were coldly calculating or passionately innocent, the effect is the same.

This would take the conversation to a different tangent of doctrinal discussion. All I will say is that your perspective seems to be based on the faulty assumption that the Gospel is something be pitched and sold and that there is no purpose to "getting saved". Anyone who has had a genuine change of heart and mind will tell you that there is nothing easy about being born again. The whole point is that your old desires and addictions, your former temptations and indulgences, they are all cast away. The law of God is supposed to be written on your heart.

Matthew 22:37-40
"Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment.39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

The implication there is not to go and live recklessly as you wish. People who describe Christianity as nihilistic often misinterpret that and forget that we're called to "take up our cross" and crucify our flesh every day. It's humbling and most certainly not a free ride.

Did the apostles face persecution? Were they hated? Sure! You can't make any significant changes in this world without attracting the wrath of people invested in the status quo. I respect their commitment. Doesn't change the fact that they revised the religion of Jesus into a new religion of their own devising. And yeah, from what I've read, their new Non-Jewish Christianity is precisely what enabled the tyrants who posed as Christians in the centuries to come.

How exactly do the disciples "revise" any of the sayings of Jesus? Can you provide a contrast between their teachings and that of Jesus's? And again to what purpose? Yes, many historical atrocities were committed in the name of Christianity and even to this day there are industries built on profiting off the Gospel. Again, doesn't change the integrity of the message.

 

[Lisa]

Soooo...you're saying the memories of the human gospel writers were...fallible?

No..I’m just saying that people think of things differently..God inspired them to write..but they wrote from their own pov.

No. Manipulation makes me barf.

So..you barf quite a lot in life then? Haha! What’s manipulative about the Bible?

The Jews"...you should really cut that shit out, you know.

So you expect the people of Israel to accept Jesus someday, but in the process they'll have to be annihilated, is all? Your blessing of Israel kind of seems like a priest blessing an animal before cutting its throat. Another human sacrifice to fulfill God's plan, yay. Millions more Jews need to be murdered for your utopia to materialize. Wonderful. You sure that the God you worship wasn't switched with the Devil at some point about 2000 years ago?

Alright...God’s chosen people, the Jews..better?

I know they will accept Jesus someday soon...its in prophecy.

I didn’t bless them...I just said I’d rather bless them then curse them. God’s chosen people, the Jews won’t be the only ones to die at the end.

Quite sure. The devil wouldn’t give anyone a way out.

 

[Lisa]

Uh huh. That's a cute way of saying they wrote down what they thought they saw and heard but since they're human their memory was faulty so one or more of them misremembered some details, i.e., FALLIBLE.

Unless you want to posit some sci fi weirdness where there were no discrepancies because each person was remembering their own parallel universe. Your call.

No, its not a cute way to put anything. I go to the movies with my spouse...we talk about the movie afterwards..and though we saw the same movie...we noticed different things or think about the same event differently. That’s just how it works.

I want to barf a lot, yes.

The most manipulative parts are when the writers insist on telling the readers to only pay attention to them and don't ever listen to other people with different ideas. It's a ruthless tactic straight out of a book I once read called Tenetics. How to ensure that your meme will beat other memes, basically.

Haha...you sound pathetic...

You can listen to anyone you want...but things need to line up with the Bible which is the plumb line for truth...that’s where God comes in..if it were just written by fallible men..fine. But the Bible was inspired by an infallible God.

Maybe you're right. But I bet it won't happen the way you think.

Bet it will..I’ve read the Bible.

So, again, you fully expect and think you need Israel to be annihilated in order for Jesus to return or reign or whatever the fantasy arrangement is. You don't think maybe, if Jesus returned, that all the mass murder could be avoided? Don't you believe in a God that changes his mind sometimes? Do you realize that if you and other like-minded Christians require all that catastrophe in order to fulfill prophecy, that you're actually incentivized to bring it about, i.e., no better than Satanists?

I’m actually waiting for God’s chosen people, the Jews, to find a spotless red heifer and then I think they will really want to have the third temple built...but I think they will need a treaty to get it done..since a mosque sits on the area they will want that temple. When that happens..then that’s the countdown to Jesus return.

I don’t believe that God will change His mind and invalidate prophecy if that’s what you mean.

Catastrophe is going to happen to everyone, since Jesus says it will be the worst time in the history of the world and if it wasn’t cut short no one would live...so, Its not just the Jews that will suffer...or do you not get that?

 

[FaithAndStrength]

Eh, regarding the creator of this threads first post, truly, God chooses who he wants as his servants-
lukewarm/cold Christians who do NOT repent will get cast into the lake of fire. Of course none of us are perfect, we have turned lukewarm and/or cold before but as long as we repent daily and continue serving the Lord and doing his will and having our hearts away from the world, we'll be fine. Christians who turn away from their faith are those God didn't choose, but rather wanted them to experience a relationship with him so that they can have the opportunity to know him, but because they later reject him- it's their fault and they aren't chosen. So that makes a fair Judgment, we all know God is just and fair so on Judgment Day, he will tell those people they experienced a relationship with him but they're also the ones that rejected him so they can't say they aren't guilty. People like to tell me that whenever I say this, it must mean I'm actually blaming God, but that isn't the case. To have a fair judgment, God must have us experience pain and pleasures and so forth so on that great and terrible day, we will be judged righteously by God himself. If we happened to kill each other, and God prevented it, thus having us not experience it, then it wouldn't be a fair judgment so that means we have to endure these trials and tribulations. This whole paragraph was me pointing out in conclusion that everything is planned, and if people leave God, then that is their fault, and they will stand before God.

 

[Robin]

Right: "MAKE EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD A JEW WHO BELIEVES IN ME." Would've been a lot harder for the apostles to pull off, for sure. Too bad they gave up and chose the easier route.

You project a lot onto this don't you? Jesus's instruction was to share the Gospel. What do you think the purpose of the OT laws were just for interest's sake?

In your everyday life, when someone lowers her standards and chooses a way more convenient option, does that process affect how you think about her choice?

This question is again built on a false premise. If you find being saved and living accordingly convenient . . . Then you're probably doing it wrong.

If you were required to convert to Judaism before then turning your life over to Jesus, that would be harder, right? So, yeah, there is something easy about being a born again Christian. You can choose to just feel like the law of God is written on your heart, instead of actually memorizing and obeying the law of God. You know, the law that Jesus followed and merely completed. Jewish law.

Well, if true transformation has take place then the whole point of the law being written on your heart is that you'll be led into obedience. Memorizing the law never stopped even the mightiest godly men in the bible from falling into temptation and sin. There's more to being saved than just mouthing the words and claiming to be born again. Which is why we're also called to produce fruits of the spirit -that serves as proof of the Holy Spirit's work within us. Out actions, ultimately, should serve a greater testimony than our words.

I appreciate the example Jesus set. Not so much the human sacrifice part, I'm not a fan of masochism and suicide, but everything else. But yeah, I do catch a strong whiff of nihilism in Christianity. It's a complex scent, a real paradox, because on the one hand you still feel forced to punish yourself merely for being alive, which is nihilistic, but on the other hand, since you believe Jesus died to cleanse your sins, as long as you repent and ask for forgiveness you're continually off the hook for whatever sins you commit, which is also nihilistic. Live perfectly, but still feel crushed by guilt; live recklessly, but always enjoy a get-out-of-jail-free card. Kind of insane. The whole point should be: Live like Jesus did. Period. Who cares about the reward or punishment of an afterlife. Just be like him, now, on earth. The rest will take care of itself.

Masochism and suicide . . . Right. Well, if that's your version of Christianity then no amount of argument from anyone else will change your mind. I am sorry that this is what you've come to believe it to be.

Here's an example I keep repeating: Jesus never said you didn't still have to be a Jew. That was a revision. He expected people to still obey Jewish law, and Paul just decided to scratch a line through that. Maybe Paul just wasn't good enough to persuade his fellow Jews, so he gave up and rewrote the rules. The other apostles seemed to have great success getting fellow Jews to believe in Jesus.

Let me ask again - what do you think was/is the purpose of Jewish law? The God-given laws and not the extra self-imposed rules that were added on later.

 

[TokiEl]

You can think that Jesus choosing to let himself be tortured and executed is necessary, redemptive, divine, etc. but it's still also literally masochistic and suicidal.

Somebody got to pay the price for fuk ups like you... so you can have a second chance.

 

[Lisa]

No. No one has to pay that price. There are a zillion other ways that an omnipotent God could choose to redeem us. Torturing and killing himself in human form is a strange choice. Almost as if it's more like a human projection of primitive shamanistic impulses onto God, rather than a representation of the actual God. Kill the scapegoat. Sacrifice the king. Transfer your sins into a chicken and slit its throat to purge yourself. That kind of thing. Bizarre. Ungodly, if you ask me.

What other zillion ways could He have chosen? You could start by naming say 100...

I thought God‘s Son being the sacrifice really showed how much God loves us..He took our punishment on ourselves to save us from sin. That’s true love don’t ya think?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I'm not God. But God has the power to do literally anything, right? So, a zillion is actually an understatement. (Unless whatever God exists isn't omnipotent?)

But here's a few ideas:

"Humans, I hereby pronounce you redeemed. You're welcome."

"Humans, I'm going to grant you all the unfailing wisdom to make good choices."

"Humans, I'm going to pretend like I'm about to sacrifice myself in human form, and then at the last second I will stop it. That'll show you."

"Humans, watch this. [Series of undeniably divine demonstrations] Now, who can dispute that I am God and that I should be obeyed? Oh, still some holdouts? Okay. [Completely blows the minds of the holdouts with irrefutable magic] Everyone convinced? Great. Now do as I say..."



Was it God's son or God himself? Make up your mind. No, true love is not subjecting yourself to torture and a gruesome human sacrifice when there are other ways of making the same point. That's true pathology.

Do any of the above truly square with the concept of free will (and hence a universe where love is possible) and which also reflects a God of absolute righteousness and justice and also of love and mercy.

I can’t envisage an alternate plan of salvation that takes into account God’s revealed character and the true nature of Mankind.

Job 9

29If I am condemned,
Why then do I labor in vain?
30If I wash myself with snow water,
And cleanse my hands with soap,
31Yet You will plunge me into the pit,
And my own clothes will abhor me.
32“For He is not a man, as I am,
That I may answer Him,
And that we should go to court together.
33Nor is there any mediator between us,
Who may lay his hand on us both.

 

[Lisa]

I'm not God. But God has the power to do literally anything, right? So, a zillion is actually an understatement. (Unless whatever God exists isn't omnipotent?)

But here's a few ideas:

"Humans, I hereby pronounce you redeemed. You're welcome."

"Humans, I'm going to grant you all the unfailing wisdom to make good choices."

"Humans, I'm going to pretend like I'm about to sacrifice myself in human form, and then at the last second I will stop it. That'll show you."

"Humans, watch this. [Series of undeniably divine demonstrations] Now, who can dispute that I am God and that I should be obeyed? Oh, still some holdouts? Okay. [Completely blows the minds of the holdouts with irrefutable magic] Everyone convinced? Great. Now do as I say..."



Was it God's son or God himself? Make up your mind. No, true love is not subjecting yourself to torture and a gruesome human sacrifice when there are other ways of making the same point. That's true pathology.

Lol! Well, all yours are sounding the same...humans, I’ll let ya off the hook which doesn’t really teach anyone anything.

However, we must not forget that God is a holy God and that means something. A holy God isn’t going to let people off the hook...His holiness can’t. The punishment though...is something He did let us off the hook on but one must believe in Jesus to access that grace. We must admit our need for such a person to save us because we can’t save ourselves.

It was God’s Son...God the Son.

Jesus thought it was a good and loving thing to do...

John‬ ‭15:13‬ ‭
Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.​

‭‭

 

[Wigi]

Was it God's son or God himself? Make up your mind. No, true love is not subjecting yourself to torture and a gruesome human sacrifice when there are other ways of making the same point. That's true pathology.

I think you're not realizing the problem of sin in mankind because the cross is not about 'making a point'.
It's about atonement, about curing our spiritual blindness. It's about changing what the law or a therapy can't change which is man's heart.

His wounds putted an end to our separation with God and He gifted us our restoration. A restoration you can't have even with good works.

"But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."
Isaiah 53:5‭-‬6


You can punish evil with the law but you can't prevent it nor compel anyone to be good with the law.

That's why the letter kills :

"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."
2 Corinthians 3:5‭-‬6

The moment you think the cross is unnecessary, you're implying that the prophets spoke for no reasons and the law is enough despite the fact that our nature will ruin everything.

 

[TokiEl]

No. No one has to pay that price.

God's justice demands reparations for crimes.