No regard...for the desire of women

Red Sky at Morning

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But it isn't enough, for you yes but there are many Christians who sin and take advantage of God's mercy. I think there's a line between mercy and wrath...you can't just say God loves us so much so he will forgive us all. There has to be accountability to serve justice to victims of the sin you do...
Does the word tetelestai mean anything to you?

0473AD5F-7055-4F56-9FBC-2DAF264F562B.jpeg

The word tetelestai was also written on business documents or receipts in New Testament times to show indicating that a bill had been paid in full. The Greek-English lexicon by Moulton and Milligan says this:

“Receipts are often introduced by the phrase [sic] tetelestai, usually written in an abbreviated manner...” (p. 630).​
The connection between receipts and what Christ accomplished would have been quite clear to John’s Greek-speaking readership; it would be unmistakable that Jesus Christ had died to pay for their sins.
 
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Serveto

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I’m sorry you had a bad experience in the church- I did too ...
I didn't have a bad experience in the church, and I was in it a lot and often.
There’s not an ‘adrenaline rush’ here-
I was specifically addressing @Lisa on that one. Thus far, I haven't conflated the two of you as the same person. Welcome to the discussions, by the way. I am enjoying many of your contributions
... I wish you well
Likewise to you, thanks.
 

Swiftturtle

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I didn't know Abraham believed in a Trinity. Can you show me from Scripture that Abraham worshipped the Trinity?
I’m positive that I didn’t say he worshipped the Trinity, but w/e you want to pull out. Jews worshipped God as a singular being bc that’s all that was revealed to them, and Abraham was a Jew, so.... Christians believe in the Trinity. God sent Jesus, and the Holy Spirit came after Jesus returned to heaven. Jews that don’t believe Jesus was the Messiah worship God as a singular bc they don’t believe what Christians do. There are Biblical scholars addressing numerous things on YouTube, so you can probably find a deep dive answer for any genuine question you have
 

Haich

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Does the word tetelestai mean anything to you?

View attachment 24885

The word tetelestai was also written on business documents or receipts in New Testament times to show indicating that a bill had been paid in full. The Greek-English lexicon by Moulton and Milligan says this:

“Receipts are often introduced by the phrase [sic] tetelestai, usually written in an abbreviated manner...” (p. 630). The connection between receipts and what Christ accomplished would have been quite clear to John’s Greek-speaking readership; it would be unmistakable that Jesus Christ had died to pay for their sins.
Ok, I get that you believe no matter what you do, Jesus has taken that sin from you via his death but I'm asking you if you wronged someone what is their reassurance that justice will be served?

So say a Christian stole from a neighbour, then as a result of that sin, that family went hungry for the night and struggled to buy food. The thief would never be able to measure or calculate the damage their actions caused but God sees and hears everything. Are you honestly telling me, that the wails and prayers of that family will go unanswered and their prayers to get justice for that thief will be ignored, just because the thief believed in Jesus?

Or if a man cheats on his wife. He hasn't been intimidate with his spouse for a year and he visits a prostitute in desperation. She finds out and files for divorce, breaks up the family etc...all because of his sin. So she just dies and never sees justice?

Quite scary actually.
 

Swiftturtle

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I didn't have a bad experience in the church, and I was in it a lot and often.

I was specifically addressing @Lisa on that one. Thus far, I haven't conflated the two of you as the same person. Welcome to the discussions, by the way. I am enjoying many of your contributions

Likewise to you, thanks.
I’m glad you didn’t have one! A pastor in his 60’s ‘counseling’ a married mother in her 20’s for abuse as a child from her dad- only to use that vulnerability to his advantage and have an affair w/her, really made me a bitter teen.

Ah ok..I learn a lot from the Christians here, so I was trying to think of who I’d differed with regarding an opinion apart from Lisa. Likewise, I learn a lot from some of the ppl in other religions that I don’t agree with- it’s rare to be able to have these open discussions with so many different views. For example, I didn’t know there was a debate about Muhammed’s wife actually being a 9 yr old between Muslim scholars. I’d only ever heard it one way from the Muslims I’ve had discussions with over the years, so that was brand new to me. There’s a couple of atheists that post that I find interesting. Echo chambers are dangerous, and I never want to live in one.

Thanks for the welcome!
 

Todd

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I’m positive that I didn’t say he worshipped the Trinity,
You said "If people believe in God, but not the Trinity, then it’s a different definition from the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

So yes you in fact are saying the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was the Trinity, so Abraham worshipped the Trinity. You then claim it just wasn't revealed to Abraham, but he was in fact worshipping the same God, even if it didn't believe or understand the Trinity. Yet any Jew or Muslim (or even Christian) who worships the God of Abraham today, but not the Trinity, because the Trinity hasn't been revealed to them, is worshippijng a different God than the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? I fail to see the logical consisitency in that contention.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Ok, I get that you believe no matter what you do, Jesus has taken that sin from you via his death but I'm asking you if you wronged someone what is their reassurance that justice will be served?

So say a Christian stole from a neighbour, then as a result of that sin, that family went hungry for the night and struggled to buy food. The thief would never be able to measure or calculate the damage their actions caused but God sees and hears everything. Are you honestly telling me, that the wails and prayers of that family will go unanswered and their prayers to get justice for that thief will be ignored, just because the thief believed in Jesus?

Or if a man cheats on his wife. He hasn't been intimidate with his spouse for a year and he visits a prostitute in desperation. She finds out and files for divorce, breaks up the family etc...all because of his sin. So she just dies and never sees justice?

Quite scary actually.
Is it your understanding that a Christian living a sinful life will be immune from God’s discipline or Satan’s attacks? Check out what happened to Ananias and Sapphira...

Again, much more detail here:-

 
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Haich

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Is it your understanding that a Christian living a sinful life will be immune from God’s discipline or Satan’s attacks? Check out what happened to Ananias and Sapphira...

Again, much more detail here:-

How is God's discipline exercised?

No one is unfortunately immune from Satan's attacks, the pesky fella promised to take us all down with him!
 

Red Sky at Morning

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How is God's discipline exercised?

No one is unfortunately immune from Satan's attacks, the pesky fella promised to take us all down with him!
When, why, and how does the Lord God discipline us when we sin?

Question: "When, why, and how does the Lord God discipline us when we sin?"

Answer: The Lord's discipline is an often-ignored fact of life for believers. We often complain about our circumstances without realizing that they are the consequences of our own sin and are a part of the Lord's loving and gracious discipline for that sin. This self-centered ignorance can contribute to the formation of habitual sin in a believer's life, incurring even greater discipline.

Discipline is not to be confused with cold-hearted punishment. The Lord's discipline is a response of His love for us and His desire for each of us to be holy. “My son, do not despise the LORD’s discipline and do not resent his rebuke, because the LORD disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in” (Proverbs 3:11-12; see also Hebrews 12:5-11). God will use testing, trials, and various predicaments to bring us back to Himself in repentance. The result of His discipline is a stronger faith and a renewed relationship with God (James 1:2-4), not to mention destroying the hold that particular sin had over us.

The Lord's discipline works for our own good, that He might be glorified with our lives. He wants us to exhibit lives of holiness, lives that reflect the new nature that God has given us: “As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: ‘Be holy, because I am holy’” (1 Peter 1:15-16).
 
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Haich

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When, why, and how does the Lord God discipline us when we sin?
Lord discipline, God discipline
Question: "When, why, and how does the Lord God discipline us when we sin?"

Answer: The Lord's discipline is an often-ignored fact of life for believers. We often complain about our circumstances without realizing that they are the consequences of our own sin and are a part of the Lord's loving and gracious discipline for that sin. This self-centered ignorance can contribute to the formation of habitual sin in a believer's life, incurring even greater discipline.

Discipline is not to be confused with cold-hearted punishment. The Lord's discipline is a response of His love for us and His desire for each of us to be holy. “My son, do not despise the LORD’s discipline and do not resent his rebuke, because the LORD disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in” (Proverbs 3:11-12; see also Hebrews 12:5-11). God will use testing, trials, and various predicaments to bring us back to Himself in repentance. The result of His discipline is a stronger faith and a renewed relationship with God (James 1:2-4), not to mention destroying the hold that particular sin had over us.

The Lord's discipline works for our own good, that He might be glorified with our lives. He wants us to exhibit lives of holiness, lives that reflect the new nature that God has given us: “As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: ‘Be holy, because I am holy’” (1 Peter 1:15-16).
Our life issues are a consequence of our sin? Are you sure?

So a victim of r*pe is responsible for that event because she sinned prior? (Extreme example yes but just trying to point out how that statement doesn't work in the real world)

I agree that trials and tribulations strengthen your spirituality and ease the hold a sin has over you but it doesn't quite make sense when you pair it with what you said earlier about Christians being exempt from hell. What's the point of all those trials if you're saved regardless?
 

Swiftturtle

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You said "If people believe in God, but not the Trinity, then it’s a different definition from the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

So yes you in fact are saying the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was the Trinity, so Abraham worshipped the Trinity. You then claim it just wasn't revealed to Abraham, but he was in fact worshipping the same God, even if it didn't believe or understand the Trinity. Yet any Jew or Muslim (or even Christian) who worships the God of Abraham today, but not the Trinity, because the Trinity hasn't been revealed to them, is worshippijng a different God than the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? I fail to see the logical consisitency in that contention.
I didn’t clarify that it was specifically coming from a Christian perspective, and you’re right, I should’ve bc otherwise it’s confusing. Jews and Muslims reject the Trinity bc they don’t recognize Jesus as God in the flesh, or accept the gospel. If you reject Christ, you’re rejecting God as He says He is: the Trinity. It’s basically saying ‘that’s our God...BUT, He says Jesus and the Holy Ghost are one with Him, but that’s not true’. You’re then defining God on your own terms, making God into what fits what you want. That’s ballsy, especially when Jesus’ life and everything about it was extensively documented. Even with all those historical records of Jesus confirming He’s God, and his perfect life, miracles, and resurrection and ascending to Heaven in front of hundreds of people.
It’s no longer the case where God hadn’t revealed His plan for redemption because He already sent Jesus, then sent the Holy Spirit when Jesus returned to God’s right hand.

Jesus and the Holy Spirit are a part of God, but he hadn’t revealed those facets yet. But yes, even though Abraham was far before Jesus’ time, bc Jesus is God, just His spirit in flesh, He was dwelling with God from the beginning, the Jews just didn’t know yet, and God didn’t send Jesus until it was His divine time to go.

Jesus ‘tore the veil’ ... by paying for our sins, He opened the door to experience His spirit for believers bc we’re no longer ‘unclean’. I reference ‘tore the veil’, bc that’s important and rarely mentioned. Here’s an explanation: https://www.gotquestions.org/temple-veil-torn.html

John 1:1&2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
(skipping ahead to the verse regarding the Word being Christ)
14: The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jesus also says later in John “Most assuredly I say to you, I AM”.... which is how God referred to Himself in the Old Testament.

Jesus is God, but there is an order (‘Jesus sits on the right hand of the Father’...there’s a Father/Son) which is why I say ‘God’ when I refer to mostly anything in the Old Testament. Not bc the Trinity didnt already exist, but bc God is the covering. I use Jesus when I refer to almost everything else so there isn’t any question about my belief in the Trinity, and that belief is what makes a distinction. Abraham wasn’t aware of the Trinity bc it wasn’t revealed yet, and therefore, couldn’t possibly deny it. However, he trusted God wholeheartedly, to the point of obeying when God tested him with Isaac. He had deep reverence for God, and God would speak to him directly. I can’t fathom that had he been on earth, he wouldn’t have recognized the glory of God in the flesh- aka, Jesus.
 
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Lisa

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Torah believing Jews could say the same thing about you. "It's when Christianity appropriates Biblical characters as their own is when Torah believing Jews have a problem, Or to talk about Abrahamic faiths...that's a misnomer." The same logic you used to formulate that stance is directly applicable to your beliefs by a Torah a believing Jew.
I think they do say the same thing but Paul says..
Romans‬ ‭11:11‬ ‭
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

‭‭At least the gospel was first for the Jew and not just taken over..
Romans‬ ‭1:16‬ ‭
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.​
‭‭
 

Lisa

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But you're going to heaven anyway so a Christian can sin, profess their love for jesus and never see the fire.
I’m going to be saved if I don’t fall away from the faith. But as you may have noticed many of my fellow Christians here believe in once saved always saved and I don’t.

Salvation is not a license to sin.
Romans‬ ‭6:15‬ ‭
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!​
‭‭
 

Lisa

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Did you go for afternoon tea? Simply stupendous.

Yh London tends to have odd areas and it's not safe anymore. Too much knife crime...
The first time I only had afternoon tea once. The second time when didn’t I have it? Lol! Afternoon tea is not the same in the US.

Ya, I heard about the knife crime and the acid attacks too.
 

JoChris

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You don't need to send links to basically say the same thing you've been saying for years.
I will explain why my approach is not the standard apologetics way:
Like yourself I have been here on and off since it started, me absent for several months at a time though.

I started to realise that Muslims attacked Christians via attacking Christian doctrine/ bible that Muhammad was unable to/ refused to understand. No matter how well Christians defended certain doctrines the Muslims still did not accept the explanations... because your faith Islam refuses to accept them. [And just like clockwork Haich did just that, using the Trinity doctrine as a distraction tactic from the thread's original topic.]

I learned that old-fashioned apologetics does not work on Muslims who are trained to believe the bible is corrupted. It is an essential part of your faith. When I started to research alternative explanations I discovered several Younger Gen X / Gen Y Christian apologists who go on the attack instead. A very well-known one that Red Sky mentioned earlier is Dr David Woods.
The apostate prophet channel is from an ex-Shia Muslim who became an atheist.
There are quite a few of their friends who examine Islam's theology at a deeper level.

Yes apostate prophet's short clip about the p***phile allegation towards Muhammad is very low-hanging fruit and offends moderate/ cultural only Muslims like yourselves. It is actually in your religious texts though. There is nothing in the bible anywhere about any prophets/ apostles doing such a disgusting thing. Immorality is always condemned in the bible.

It is your problem, no one else's. Guilt tricks and distraction tactics don't work any more on people who have figured out Islam's strategies. If you refuse to learn about your "prophet", I will still post the same material to warn others so fewer potential converts are made.
 

JoChris

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That wasn't my point at all. I like how you flipped it. Very Christian indeed.
That was done on purpose. I am glad you liked it. :D
Flippant responses were used at times throughout the bible. e.g. Elijah mocking the prophets of Baal when all their rituals and crying out to their god produced no results.
ESV gives a less polite version than the KJV so I am giving it here. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Kings+18:20-39&version=ESV

27 And at noon Elijah mocked them, saying, “Cry aloud, for he is a god. Either he is musing, or he is relieving himself, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.
You'll hardly find a Muslim quoting bible verses and trying to debunk them. Honestly, we don't care....
Yes, because your prophet was illiterate and had no comprehension of what the bible said.
You make that very clear you "don't care", don't you worry.
and from time you can't explain the trinity with clarity and explain why jesus prays to the father, then our work is done...
That is false and you know it. We have given multiple answers, links to Christian apologetics sites addressing the Trinity, and Muslims refuse to accept them.
We know you refuse to accept the Trinity because whatever Muhammad said, you believe mindlessly. Denial of the Trinity is an essential part of the Muslim faith. If you end up believing in the Trinity, you are now an apostate and worthy of death.
Your faith is confusing and there are numerous inconsistencies in the bible which you gloss over....
See above entries. Whatever Muhammad did not understand/ refused to understand, you refuse to understand etc etc.
I can't help you accept the facts about Mohammed pbuh, you choose to take your islamic knowledge from ex muslims or people who have no connection to the faith.
So the only people who are to be trusted on Islam are currently Muslims themselves?! That is a stupid condition and you know it.

e.g. Ex-believers in religions, especially those who had been in positions of power are often the very BEST sources to expose its inner secret doctrines and shameful practices that no person with a generally good conscience would ever join after learning the full truth.

You lose all logic and reasoning where it comes to Islam. It is quite sad to see.
Do ever consider that maybe your religious leaders chat nonsense about Islam to stop you from being tolerant of others? Sure, the same could be said for other faith leaders but YouTube is just full of losers like David Wood trying to get a reaction out of muslims, to only then point the finger when he gets a reaction and says 'O look moslemz are so crazy and extreme'. I'm sorry but it's ludicrous to think that most of you believe half of what you're told about Islam...if you want to know about this 'mysterious faith' go to your local mosque and stop being so ignorant.

on't spend minutes on end trying to 'prove christianity wrong'. You guys do a pretty good job of that yourselves!
You Muslims can't out guilt Catholic nuns. Sorry, those tactics stopped affecting me a long time ago.

I care about Muslims more and more as I learn what you people are put through in the name of religion. You genuinely deserve pity and more people should be trying to free you from religious bondage, not less.

P.S.
Here we go.

Posting more nonsense which has been addressed and debunked. If only they scrutinised their own texts like this...they'd arrive to some interesting conclusions
That entry of yours was at 3:06 am my time.
Fewer immediate responses most certainly does not equal victory on a forum. I thought you were a teacher?!!! Surely logical ability is essential part of that job?!
 
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JoChris

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First of all that Aussie imam is a joke. He is basically a troll thats being taken serious by people for whatever reason. He has made very weird statements to the point that our actual imams had to warn people to do their research before believing whatever he says.

Also the hadith you mentioned, like we've said many times in this forum, is fake. Its inauthentic. The chain of narration is weak, the narrator NEVER met Aisha r.a. so the fact that he narrated this from her point of view is very suspicious. Also the man had dementia lol.

-The hadith also is clearly fake because it says that their nikkah was when she was 6 years old. But Aisha r.a is said to be 6 when she accepted Islam as she accepted it when her father did who accepted it during year 1 of prophethood.
-The time gap between year 1 of prophethood and the migration to Medina is 13 years and Aisha and Prophet married a year AFTER the migration.
-Not just that but Aisha r.a. was the daughter of Abu Bakr's first wife who died way before the prophet started preaching Islam.
-Also Aisha took part in the battle of Badr as a nurse and you had to be 14+ to be allowed near the battlefield.
Basic math tells us she was atleast 19-20. History tells us she was 19-20. ONE hadith that has been again and again proven wrong tells us she wasn't. Quran doesn't even allow marriage unless the person is physically and mentally mature.

While our language might sound crude but you have to realize that I don't live in the first world. I know along with many others that this hadith is fake and we know that it was spread around by people who wanted to exploit Islam using misinformation and marry young girls.
I've seen young kids get married off as child brides in South Asia. And I, along with other Muslims have been trying to fight it by educating people that its wrong and that its NOT a part of Islam.
So you can't blame us for getting pissed off when someone comes in and tries to shove it down our throats that "its islam". We are the victims of this, we ARE fighting this and we don't need to be told that its islam by people who are trying to make themselves feel good about their own faith.
When you say that this hadith is correct, you are causing damage and Muslim kids are at the receiving end. This is something that needs to be exposed, spread awareness about. Not forced into Islam. Its easy to say "hurr durr if it hadith it true" when you are living in a safe space.

You can tell whether a hadith is accurate or not by whether its in accordance with the Quran. Other methods include verifying the chain of narration and time etc. Hadith are basically quotes and sayings that the Prophet said or things he did. But we aren't hearing this from him but rather people who heard it from them. It includes people who are narrating accurately, people who forgot stuff and people who spread lies.
This is the old "if its on the internet it must be true" thing. We have to verify stuff before believing them and the reason we are in such a mess is because of people who don't bother with research or context.
Quick entry now:
I actually agree with you about that Imam. In a later online show Wood said he was letting the imam having an opportunity to give his perspective to people and didn't want to interrupt him too much.
If people search for Wood's show immediately after that interview they can see he addresses people's skepticism about how trustworthy that Imam really was.
What I saw last night was a man blatantly trying to get extra book sales and dismissing what he didn't personally agree with in the Quran. Sort of like his own self-made cult.

All this explaining away of Hadiths by some Muslims and unquestioning belief of them by others really does seem to make a major difference how genuine a Muslim is.
To my understanding on a scale of 1 - 10, Muslims who only believe Hadith's general principles and traditions (1) to literal acceptance of all of them (no matter what time period they were written) and carrying them out (10).
To me you sound like you are in the 1-4 range (same for most on the forum). ISIS would be 10.
 
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lisa thinks the fact that people dont like her and people "oppose" her is a special badge from god. she goes out of her way to be as intolerable as possible to be more loved by god. martyr complex mentioned earlier was spot on.
I think you and Haich are correct. What’s interesting even shudder when I think about it, I used to work with someone who’s like Lisa. This woman swore up and down that she was God’s special child and a coworker told her that we’re all God’s special children. She responded, “...but no, I’m his SPECIAL child!” No one knew what to think about it because she was cleaning out her cubicle at the time (they didn’t extend her contract and that’s a story in of itself!). Once she left, the same coworker who told her we're all special to God had to clean what she left in her cubicle and found bible passages in her drawer and a black rose! I can only say we all breathed a huge sigh of relief when she was gone because no one knew what was going to set her off next. Some of us even planned our escape route if she was going to go postal one day – no joke.

Anyway, all I know is the all the rest of us knew this woman had issues galore and the office breathed a sigh of relief when she was gone. I’d like to think that she’s gotten the counselling she needed, but I’ve heard through the grapevine she’s still the same.
 
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