No regard...for the desire of women

[Serveto]

@Lisa,

If you were in caravan, in the heart of the Arabian desert, especially during the era prior to cars, sunscreens with SPF of 40 and such other modern conveniences as air-conditioning, I would guess that, within 5 minutes of being outside, you'd be asking for, and wearing, one of those so called "tents" to cover and thus protect yourself. I know that, when I took a camel ride through the area surrounding the pyramids of Giza, I seriously considered wearing a so called "towel" on my head for the same reason. In this case, and for what it is worth, I am thinking more anthropologically than religiously.

 

[Lisa]

@Lisa,

If you were in caravan, in the heart of the Arabian desert, especially during the era prior to cars, sunscreens with SPF of 40 and such other modern conveniences as air-conditioning, I would guess that, within 5 minutes of being outside, you'd be asking for, and wearing, one of those so called "tents" to cover and thus protect yourself. I know that, when I took a camel ride through the pyramids of Giza, I seriously considered wearing a so called "towel" on my head for the same reason. In this case, and for what it is worth, I am thinking more anthropologically than religiously.

All black...what torture!

 

[Serveto]

All black...what torture!

It's not. Examine the lightweight fabric of the Arabian abayas. The beduin (nomadic) tents, made of much heavier fabric, are black as well. What is torture is being in the sun, unprotected. Go ahead, wear a white bikini there: I dare you.

 

[Orwell's mentor]

I am a woman and as a woman, it looks exactly what it is, a cloth prison. I wouldn’t want to wear it and be nothing.

If they were able to be honest, yes I think they would like to live without the prison but I think they are also deceived as to who God is and have believed a god.

I have my opinion as do you, only in offering my opinion, I don’t belittle yours.

But how do you know it's a "prison" if you haven't spoken to them, Lisa? That's why I said your posts/opinions are ignorant because they are WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE. You don't know the first thing about how they feel about wearing a hijab because you've never asked them as you just assume. If you did, your opinion wouldn't be one of ignorance. You appear to demean and ridicule them without any information about them or their situation whatsoever.

 

[Lisa]

It's not. Examine the lightweight fabric of the Arabian abayas. The beduin (nomadic) tents, made of much heavier fabric, are black as well. What is torture is being in the sun, unprotected. Go ahead, wear a white bikini there: I dare you.

That’s odd..

 

[Lisa]

But how do you know it's a "prison" if you haven't spoken to them, Lisa? That's why I said your posts/opinions are ignorant because they are WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE. You don't know the first thing about how they feel about wearing a hijab because you've never asked them as you just assume. If you did, your opinion wouldn't be one of ignorance. You appear to demean and ridicule them without any information about them or their situation whatsoever.

Im not demeaning or ridiculing anyone, no one should have to live like that.

 

[Daciple]

Sorry but it seems like both sides are being insanely hard headed about this Burka/Hijab ideology.

Let us simplify maybe to find common ground?

Women should have the Freedom to wear anything they want, if a woman WANTS to wear clothing that covers literally every part of them from head to toe, then Amen, go for it.

If a woman wants to wear a bikini that barely covers anything (as long as it doesnt amount to literal indecency aka nudity) while I personally oppose it and would rather them cover themselves and dress modestly, then since they are not breaking the law by doing so, go for it.

However once there is ANY type of legislation, by any governing body, whether Political or Religious that mandates a certain dress and then ENFORCES a punishment, then at that time, the type of dress is no longer about freedom but about force.

And THAT is the problem people have with the Burka/Hijab, because in MANY Countries and throughout MANY communities that have a Majority of Islamic followers, the dress becomes a LAW and MANDATORY and then is ENFORCED via threats and violence or rejection from the community all together.

If the same thing was happening in Christian/Jewish/Pagan households EN MASS throughout the entire world THEN you would see an uproar from people in the same fashion that people have uproars over Islamic dress.

With that said in AMERICA where Freedom is still a thing, if only by a slight margin atm, if a Muslim WANTS to dress head to toe in black, even when its 100 degrees out, then by all means GO FOR IT. I support and stand behind your decision 1000000000%.

However if that woman is doing it because she is afraid her husband or community is going to either hurt or ostracize her then I would 10000% stand behind that woman to be allowed to dress how she wants WITHOUT threats or intimidation.

The problem however, is that in many communities the women do NOT have the actual choice and would have to endure violence or ostracization for not conforming to the dress that is being mandated.

So here is the common ground.

Let women dress how they want, and make it WRONG to FORCE them to don a Burka/Hijab if they choose NOT to do so. However that is an extremely hard thing to mandate because Culture is more persuasive than Laws, and if they come from a Culture that enacts violence or any other type of negative reaction to not wearing certain clothing, then those women will remain oppressed.

And to be clear, there is a Law in some countries in Europe BANNING the Burka, and I personally dont agree with them, the Burka or whatever other Islamic Attire should be legal...

 

[Lisa]

Let us simplify maybe to find common ground?

Do we need to find common ground?

 

[Serveto]

That’s odd..
View attachment 24310

The "Religious Memes" thread is full of equally odd, and sometimes funny, memes. You should post that there because it doesn't qualify as proof of anything except the creative activities of the meme maker.

 

[Lisa]

The "Religious Memes" thread is full of equally odd, and sometimes funny, memes. You should post that there because it doesn't qualify as proof of anything except the creative activities of the meme maker.

It came from the beautiful Islamic pictures thread...they didn’t seem to mind it there and in fact it was liked by these members..

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/beautiful-islamic-pictures.2080/page-4

 

[Serveto]

It came from the beautiful Islamic pictures thread...they didn’t seem to mind it there and in fact it was liked by these members..
View attachment 24311
https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/beautiful-islamic-pictures.2080/page-4

Now you're onto something. That is odd.

 

[Lisa]

Now you're onto something. That is odd.

I think I am..the fabric isn’t all that lightweight and obviously they all know you sweat like a pig in it...
So again, I say, what torture!

 

[Colonel Valerio]

Hey @Serveto you deleted your post but thanks for the conversation too.

I hope I didn’t come across as anti-Muslim because I’m not, honestly as long as people keep it private they can worship however they want, but I would be a hypocrite if I didn’t criticize elements of Islam, and Islamic fundamentalism the same way I do of every religion.

 

[Colonel Valerio]

@Lisa,

If you were in caravan, in the heart of the Arabian desert, especially during the era prior to cars, sunscreens with SPF of 40 and such other modern conveniences as air-conditioning, I would guess that, within 5 minutes of being outside, you'd be asking for, and wearing, one of those so called "tents" to cover and thus protect yourself. I know that, when I took a camel ride through the area surrounding the pyramids of Giza, I seriously considered wearing a so called "towel" on my head for the same reason. In this case, and for what it is worth, I am thinking more anthropologically than religiously.

This is actually correct, but why can’t they just wear a turban and the robes like the men? And in modern society it’s not really as necessary but westerners could learn a lot on how to deal with the heat from middle easterners.

That’s odd..
View attachment 24310

Not in a modern context necessarily, but the point of the dress is to cause a lot of perspiration that will cool you down.

 

[Serveto]

I think I am..the fabric isn’t all that lightweight and obviously they all know you sweat like a pig in it...
So again, I say, what torture!

Refer to the Colonel's anthropological answer above. Sweating is Nature's air-conditioning, even if it sometimes stinks.

I don't know about the niqab, but I brought an Arabian abaya to my mom, which is not the same thing, from Arabia, and they are made of lightweight fabrics, generally, though they also have heavier fabrics for the cold season in Arabia. My mom, being Christian, doesn't wear it, but thinks the fabric is sumptuous and elegant. She has good taste, appreciates some of the exotic gifts I bring from my sometimes far-flung travels, but hasn't needed, or wanted, to wear it because she hasn't been on camel caravan through the heart of the Arabian desert. Yet, that is.

 

[DesertRose]

There are differences between those who have different cultures. Islam provides guidelines only such as not too tight or see through the actual clothing is usually cultural.
Like I said some people would do well to travel but in the long run who cares what they think.
Haters gonna hate, but the caravan of well wishers is growing.
Here is an example of the more relevant conversations Muslim women are having:
Honest Tea Talk Episode 9 // Gender Roles in the Community

 

[Orwell's mentor]

There are differences between those who have different cultures. Islam provides guidelines only such as not too tight or see through the actual clothing is usually cultural.
Like I said some people would do well to travel but in the long run who cares what they think.
Haters gonna hate, but the caravan of well wishers is growing.
Here is an example of the more relevant conversations Muslim women are having:
Honest Tea Talk Episode 9 // Gender Roles in the Community

I thought this was an intriguing episode - thanks. I was listening to it rather than watching it, and what they're talking about sounded like everyday things that women would talk about. It was only when I came back to my screen, I realized they were Muslim women. Well, that and when they said "Muslim women" and "Muslim communities". They're all very articulate and intelligent individuals who are discussing challenges of relationships and families in the 21st century.

 

[Colonel Valerio]

Your point is legitimate, but it seems to me, rather like the Islamic prohibition against usury (rib'a) and alcohol, there would have been no need for the Quran to prohibit something which wasn't practiced. Again, I don't rely exclusively upon the Quran and compilers of ahadith for all of my information anyway. Ibn al-Tabari, for instance, is a good read, and he is respected by many "modern" historians exactly because he included, in his histories, at times conflicting and unflattering reports of early Arabian, pagan and Islamic, behavior. I've only read one of his Volumes, translated into English as "Muhammad at Mecca.," but it was informative and worthwhile.

Edit to add:
Ibn al-Tabari, in the Volume I reference, does not, as I recall, at any point address the issue of female infanticide. I just generally recommend him as an informative, if flawed, writer of early Arabian history

This is from an article I posted to one of this forums white nationalists that I think you may appreciate.


“A powerful illustration of this argument for complexity can be found in Córdoba: a city located in southern Spain. This area was conquered and colonized by several empires, notably the (Christian) Byzantines and (Muslim) Moors. These empires made the mistake of treating the colonized as second-class citizens in some respects, but Andalusia (Al-Andalus) nonetheless became one of the most important European centers for intellectual exchange during this period of the Umayyad Caliphate. It boasted extensive libraries and research centers, music (Flamenco is a combination of North African, Spanish, and Romani influences), food, literature, philosophy, and the creation of aqueducts and culturally hybridized architectural wonders. Córdoba was the largest city in Europe in the 10th century. Muslims, Christians, and Jews (largely) peacefully coexisted in Moorish Al-Andalus, despite some restrictions placed on non-Muslims such as paying the jizya (a non-Muslim tax). However, zakkat, or the “charitable” tax of Muslims, provided a welfare state of sorts that Muslims and non-Muslims alike were able to enjoy.

While the rest of Medieval Europe remained in the Dark Ages, the diverse exchanges in Al-Andalus led to some of the greatest mathematical discoveries in history. As a result of the Islamic emphasis on learning, people translated works from Greek, Persian, and Indian sources, putting them at the forefront of mathematical knowledge in that period. This diversity created an environment that contributed to one of the most important foundations of mathematics to date: the invention and notation the number zero, in addition to the foundations of algebra. These mathematical advances facilitated an explosion of scientific development in fields such as astronomy, cartography, and geography that ultimately led to critical inventions such as the astrolabe. One of the pivotal moments of reckoning for Don Black’s (founder of Stormfront, former Klan Grand Wizard) son Derek was when — in seeking to understand the glorified Medieval European society his community cherished — he instead found out how backwards it was in many respects, relative to its contemporaries in the Islamic world. The sheer complexity of networked diversity led to the advances in Andalusia and ethno-religious supremacy (albeit non-Western) led to the downfall of this Mecca of ideological evolution and exchange. Homogeneity is fine for white milk, but not for a species whose goal is evolution.”

I think to an extent the roles have been reversed as today we find Arab/Muslim nations clinging to superstition and nationalism, nationalism which ultimately brought down a pretty positive example of human society when compared to Europe of the time.

I will not do as some here are prone to do and romanticize the past, we have made strides and we should be grateful for it.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Wow! That’s pretty crass.

absolutely justified, my comment. He's in his 60s and only married his 'wife' 3 months ago. He's lived a playboy lifestyle banging hookers, doing coke etc. You think his 'wife' would marry him if he was a cab driver? glorified hooker.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Misogyny is a requirement for Muslim men, it’s even worse than Christianity and Judaism which are of course terrible, the Muslims are on a whole new level of woman hate.

context matters, you have a man who is king of thailand, who's lived a playboy lifestyle for most of his life. A woman marrying him, knows what she's getting involved with, but does it anyway. Why would anyone feel sorry for her? she's a glorified hooker.
you feel sad for her too?

@Serveto there's no need to champion islamic history, verses, quotes, stories etc. let people be ignorant and follow modern trends. a lot of transsexuals in the making. they're destroying themselves.