New YouTube series: Islamicize me

manama

Star
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
3,827
I think we may have very different viewpoints on marriage thanks to cultural as well as religious beliefs.

I believe that a woman should only marry a man if she loves him. Money and gifts should not be given like a business transaction. We are not cattle or servants.
Lol use half a brain please. The money mentioned in the verse isn't just money but provision or living expenses in general because it the RIGHT of a woman. Alimony? Ever heard of it?

Don't make this about culture, you live in a country that gives half of everything to a woman after divorce which is, to be honest, abusive to the man to the point youngsters are against getting married.

AND Since for someone that says the word "history" alot but doesn't know it, in the Christian west, there was something called left-hand marriage, where a man signified that his lower class woman wasn't really a true wife but rather a good fuck and to show this, he always had her on his left side. Because of this, the children born to these "wives" were slaves, and not free. Concubinage was everywhere.

These two verses that you are trying to make an issue out of without even properly reading SAVED those women
That is why "what your right hand possess" is written which nullifies the practice of the Christian west. It says that those "women" have the rights of your wives, they are FREE, their children are your children and they are by DEFAULT free.

Islam provided solution to the problems created, all problems. It has every solution out there. So don't talk about "marriage" or "my culture" when in your culture, marriage is becoming less and less common with many young people my age absolutely hating it.

Well I have said more than enough now. If you are determined to believe the words of Muhammad no matter what is shown about his history and character then no outsider will convince you. See you on other threads.
Aww how cute.
-Tries to make bathroom manner an issue = fails
-Tries to bring science in = gets scienced instead
-Tries to make "living expenses" an issue = fails

"I have said more than enough now" how cute.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
3,150
The bible, on the other hand, makes no revelatory mention of islam or muhammed-- we are warned only that if any other doctrine (gospel) is presented to us, whether by man or angel... let him be anathema.

-
It does dear, it does. Unfortunately, they have been concealed, removed or you've been taught to misinterpret those revelatory mentions.

Almighty God says in His Noble Quran:


Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful.
And He the Most High says:


Those to whom We gave the Scripture know him as they know their own sons. But indeed, a party of them conceal the truth while they know [it].
Your Creator speaks of the Quran saying:

And indeed, it is [mentioned] in the scriptures of former peoples.​

and He describes the monotheist believers, Muhammad's followers:


Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating [in prayer], seeking bounty from Allah and [His] pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward.
 

elsbet

Superstar
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
5,122
AND Since for someone that says the word "history" alot but doesn't know it, in the Christian west, there was something called left-hand marriage, where a man signified that his lower class woman wasn't really a true wife but rather a good fuck and to show this, he always had her on his left side. Because of this, the children born to these "wives" were slaves, and not free. Concubinage was everywhere.
Medieval Germany, I believe.

Left-handed Wife (Grose 1811 Dictionary)
Left-handed Wife

A concubine; an allusion to an ancient German custom, according to which, when a man married his concubine, or a woman greatly his inferior, he gave her his left hand.

Definition taken from The 1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue*, originally by Francis Grose.

Nathan Bailey's 1736 Dictionary of canting and thieving slang

John S. Farmer's collection of canting songs and slang rhymes


*The vulgar tongue... noted. Tbh, I loathe this kind of exchange, but this is not a Christian tradition, and the correction seems warranted. More here about Morgantic marriage.
 

manama

Star
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
3,827
Medieval Germany, I believe.

Left-handed Wife (Grose 1811 Dictionary)
Left-handed Wife

A concubine; an allusion to an ancient German custom, according to which, when a man married his concubine, or a woman greatly his inferior, he gave her his left hand.

Definition taken from The 1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue*, originally by Francis Grose.

Nathan Bailey's 1736 Dictionary of canting and thieving slang

John S. Farmer's collection of canting songs and slang rhymes


*The vulgar tongue... noted. Tbh, I loathe this kind of exchange, but this is not a Christian tradition, and the correction seems warranted. More here about Morgantic marriage.
I know this is not in Christianity, but the fact that it was practiced in Christian countries by their monarchies(And more), because having "concubines" was just way too direct, so they gave it the name marriage, to justify their sins. JoChris brought up cultures, so I brought up a part of her "culture" that my religion ended. She claims to be a feminist and calls us misogynists. I'm just correcting her.
 

elsbet

Superstar
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
5,122
It does dear, it does. Unfortunately, they have been concealed, removed or you've been taught to misinterpret those revelatory mentions.
It really doesn't. :/
You were told that it has been hidden... to explain the absence of biblical support-- really? I didn't know that. There's no historical corroboration either-- that would certainly explain much of the ongoing animosity toward Christianity and Judaism.
I'm at a bit of a loss tbh.
 

elsbet

Superstar
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
5,122
I know this is not in Christianity, but the fact that it was practiced in Christian countries by their monarchies(And more), because having "concubines" was just way too direct, so they gave it the name marriage, to justify their sins. JoChris brought up cultures, so I brought up a part of her "culture" that my religion ended. She claims to be a feminist and calls us misogynists. I'm just correcting her.
I didn't look at your argument with JoChris.. but to the best of my knowledge, these people were part of the Catholic church, which has been many things over the centuries... but Christian is not a title I would allow for them. Protestantism is pretty diverse though. Idk that we can nail down a culture to be *conquered* in this context.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
3,908
It would be great if Muslims stopped equating criticism of their religion and prophet to hatred and Islamophobia. It makes you all sound childish and unable to defend Muhammad.
"Yeah but what about your beliefs..." is a variation of schoolyard taunting. It is a poor system of attack.

Well I have said more than enough now. If you are determined to believe the words of Muhammad no matter what is shown about his history and character then no outsider will convince you. See you on other threads.
This thread, posting a video from David wood.
That was childish.

Unlike people like you, Muslims here tend to defend our religion with strong arguments. In my case I regularly use strong arguments from your own scripture that ultimately condemn you.
As always...there's never a direct response.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
3,908
@elsbet please don't just add things that are not there.
Islam may not go into depth on Jesus...because it doesn't have to. These topics esp the 'risen christ' are neither confirmed nor rejected in plain writing.
What Islam fundamentally teaches is that Jesus is alive and not dead...
That means essentially the same thing since we believe in his second coming.

What Islam rejects are words and Ideas that remove people from monotheism.

Furthermore God is here anytime anyplace you want God. If you sincerely repent to God then you are most certainly forgiven provided you believe.
I don't need to substitute Jesus for God.

The crucifixion imo pertains to the nature of sin via our carnal nature. The flesh. It deals with our carnal attachments and we are meant to die to the flesh through the mystical union with Jesus ie "because he died we all died"
Yet this mystical union also depends on keeping true to the teachings of Jesus and even having a mystical connection through the church. The apostles were the founders of churches and likened to the branches.
So 2000 years later you need to be connected to this tree to attain the benefits of Christianity. If you don't then what is the point?
It's my absolute and firm belief that Christians are certainly 'cut off' from this tree. After inventing the false trinitarian doctrine that rejects the words of Jesus and then the many innovations all that remains is faux Christianity.


If Christianity was legitimate then there is no chance whatsoever God would have enough given the holy land to Muslims to posess for over 1200+ years. For God sake that is longer than the Jews even had it. When Jews had it, there was idolatory in the temple many times over, mass bloodshed and prophets were persecuted or killed.
When Christians had it, they disrespected the temple mount and the Jews. The Jews were massacred in large numbers in the 7th century prior to Muslim takeover.

The only peace that land had was under Muslim rule and yet the only flipping time Jerusalem was flowing with blood was when the crusaders arrived.

Remember one thing about me that's unique amongst Muslims. I believe in the crucifixion...yet I deny that you have any real mystical connection to jesus.
I am supported by the ideas within the new testament.
I believe the logos is the son and the logos is the expression through which the Trancendence Essence of God reveals His attributes and is Immanent on the macrocosmic level.
I further believe the holy spirit reflects the logos in the microcosmic level and that God is Immanent here also ie God is also in us.

The Qur'an teaches us this in so many ways.
In Islam we are told that Allah is closer to us than our jugular vein.
I believe Islam has kept the original unity of God whilst the 3 fold aspect of God's manifestation is there in the words
Bismillah irRahman irRaheem
But it requires knowledge to understand this


Furthermore from what I have read the original trinitarian idea also saw the son and holy spirit is revealers of God's Immanence and so they never once confused the Trancendence God with the son and holy spirit. So they were aware of this seperation.
So ironically my view doesn't even contradict the original Unitarian idea behind the trinity.
It is only later that Christians went too far and made baby jezuz into the son and the holy ghost as some personal spririt you can lay claim to anytime you want.
It is no wonder Jesus said he will reject Many.
Also I swear to God I have never ever met anyone so far who has argued that the use of the title LORD by Christians is completely false ie you call him THE LORD As in a diety.
Yet in Psalm 110 the word clearly was adoni whereas God was Adonai. So Jesus was lord of David yet he wasn't the same as God. There were also many lords but only one Adonai.
Time and time again in the epistles we see the apostles refer to Jesus seperately as lord but never as God. The only instance where this is not the case is easily explained as above ie that the logos reveals god's Immanence. So the fullness of diety is in the son yet the son does not regard himself as something to be worshipped.

Whatever it is you follow it is basically empty and I swear I'm not being petty when I say this but I've thought about it many times and fjnd it to get pointless and lacking any real substance.
 

elsbet

Superstar
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
5,122
@elsbet please don't just add things that are not there.
Islam may not go into depth on Jesus...because it doesn't have to. These topics esp the 'risen christ' are neither confirmed nor rejected in plain writing.
What Islam fundamentally teaches is that Jesus is alive and not dead...
That means essentially the same thing since we believe in his second coming.
No.. it doesn't mean the same thing, at all.

That aside, I'm not really sure what you are talking about-- many tangents and much confusion.

You have a highly unorthodox set of beliefs-- that they are your own, and clearly come from a great deal of study, is something I respect quite a bit. But I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to @gratefulservant who believes that the forty some odd authors of the Torah and the Bible have merely hidden the information that would validate the quran.. And it baffles me that you feel the need to run interference for a religion that you don't want to follow, yourself.

"... please don't just add things that are not there."

And.. I have no idea what you think I added.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
3,908
No.. it doesn't mean the same thing, at all.

That aside, I'm not really sure what you are talking about-- many tangents and much confusion.

You have a highly unorthodox set of beliefs-- that they are your own, and clearly come from a great deal of study, is something I respect quite a bit. But I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to @gratefulservant who believes that the forty some odd authors of the Torah and the Bible have merely hidden the information that would validate the quran.. And it baffles me that you feel the need to run interference for a religion that you don't want to follow, yourself.

"... please don't just add things that are not there."

And.. I have no idea what you think I added.
Ok I apologise I just thought you are claiming things against Islam that are not there.
Bottom line is the Qur'an is clear in supporting the bible Inc the Torah.
In the hadith the prophet once got angry with Umar Ra because he was reading a translation of the Torah ..and he said "neither confirm or deny what they give you because something might be the word of Allah and you don't know and something else might be their own opinion which they present as the word of Allah". Yet most Muslims who deal with this topic think their knowledge of the Qur'an gives them authority to accept or reject parts of previous scriptures.
When our prophet actually held the Hebrew Torah in his hands he showed it respect. So he wasn't attacking the book previously but he was questioning the interpretations.
So on that, the Qur'an states that some of them write the book with their own hands and say "it is from Allah". It doesn't refer to the actual Torah but the interpretations and this matches what it says in Jeremiah about the lying hand of the scribes and Jesus also confirmed this.
The biggest irony actually is that this very verse in the Qur'an is then interpreted by Muslim interprators and instead they make s different claim (one that contradicts the Qur'an itself) ie that the Jews changed the book itself ie that the book cannot be trusted.
So a large reason why Muslims have opinions today like this is primarily because of these very had interpretations.

Mohsin khan's translation is by far the worst imo because it is full of his opinions so he can influence people according to his own views. I have looked into some topics closer and can easily find many holes in their perspective and yet the solution ie knowing how to spot those errors is to study words and contexts found in the bible.

The most important thing is to seek knowledge and the prophet saw said "seek knowledge wherever you find it".
So my methods are sound not flawed.

Also Islam is very diverse. The orthodox side of Islam pertains to core theology and fight/law...but in areas of religious knowledge /perspective it is very very diverse.
In the modern age anyone can change history according to their personal ideas by selecting that which matches their view from the past.
If I had access to more material thats translated from Arabic I could find more to support my views.


About Jesus risen...Islam already tells is martyrs are alive. So the crux of the message in the risen Christ is the same.
Fundamentally the Jews did not believe in life after death and yet the Qur'an taught that martyrs are living not dead.
Jesus being risen was to prove that martyrs don't die.
Why?
Because the one who died to the world...can't die. They only appear dead.
 

manama

Star
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
3,827
I didn't look at your argument with JoChris.. but to the best of my knowledge, these people were part of the Catholic church, which has been many things over the centuries... but Christian is not a title I would allow for them. Protestantism is pretty diverse though. Idk that we can nail down a culture to be *conquered* in this context.
Please stop lol You are completely off the rail about the original argument and you are confusing both yourself and I.

JoChris failed to use "science" to support her weak argument so she went ahead and picked a verse from Quran. And using that verse she said that Islam and us Muslims are misogynists, while good ol fellow here is a "feminist", then went about how its because we are from different cultures.

I'm just saying that she is hardly someone who should talk about culture because the verse she quoted (rather stupidly i might say) tackles the very problem that originated from HER culture, something that was common IN her culture. I'm just calling out her hypocrisy, nothing more.
 

Karlysymon

Superstar
Joined
Mar 18, 2017
Messages
6,722
So don't talk about "marriage" or "my culture" when in your culture, marriage is becoming less and less common with many young people my age absolutely hating it.
I just watched this. Lebanon: Single by Choice

That's just Lebanon. But its actually a world-wide trend. And while its often said that its women who initiate divorce in the West, unsurprisingly, its the same story in the film.
 

manama

Star
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
3,827
I just watched this. Lebanon: Single by Choice

That's just Lebanon. But its actually a world-wide trend. And while its often said that its women who initiate divorce in the West, unsurprisingly, its the same story in the film.
47 minutes is already terrifying but i don't mean people who are single because they want to be but rather people in a relationship who think that marriage is the dumbest invention ever.
 
Top