Nations taking their places for Ezekiel 38

Red Sky at Morning

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Being on topic I always thought of Ezekiel 38 taking place after the thousand year reign of Jesus Christ when then dragon is set loose. It was people like Tim Lahaye and Hal Lindsey that made the chapter focus on an end times state of Israel. Its a newer teaching that didn't exist before then.
Some people are of the view that a pre-trib perspective is a new development (in Christian history terms), not realising that Amillennialism was only really popularised by Augustine of Hippo (in the early 5th century AD in his book “City of God”) much later. Irenaeus of Lyon (disciple of Polycarp, disciple of John the apostle) described a pre-trib rapture in his “Against Heresies” writings…

 






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Bubbajay

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Some people are of the view that a pre-trib perspective is a new development (in Christian history terms), not realising that Amillennialism was only really popularised by Augustine of Hippo (in the early 5th century AD in his book “City of God”) much later. Irenaeus of Lyon (disciple of Polycarp, disciple of John the apostle) described a pre-trib rapture in his “Against Heresies” writings…

I'm not sure what the early Christians wrote on the subject, but I do know modern pre-trib rapture and dispensationism goes back to the Spanish Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera. It was given to Evangelical Irving by a Jesuit named Manuel Lacunza who was masquerading as a Jewish rabbi named Juan Josafat Ben Ezra. La Cunza under the guise of Ben Ezra gave it to Edward Irving, Irving gave it to Charles Nelson Darby of the Plymouth brethren. The rest is modern history. It was all a Jesuit ruse to plant the theology in Christendom at that time. It worked very well.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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I'm not sure what the early Christians wrote on the subject, but I do know modern pre-trib rapture and dispensationism goes back to the Spanish Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera. It was given to Evangelical Irving by a Jesuit named Manuel Lacunza who was masquerading as a Jewish rabbi named Juan Josafat Ben Ezra. La Cunza under the guise of Ben Ezra gave it to Edward Irving, Irving gave it to Charles Nelson Darby of the Plymouth brethren. The rest is modern history. It was all a Jesuit ruse to plant the theology in Christendom at that time. It worked very well.
What’s your stance on these issues @Bubbajay ? There are a range of eschatological positions I am aware of, and am interested in why people who hold different views come to those conclusions (e.g. Oswald T. Allis and Covenental Theology).

p.s. for wider context, Shakespeare invented the word “lonely”, yet I dare say people experienced loneliness before Shakespeare introduced the word. Athanasius formalised the doctrine of the Trinity, but it is clear that many held to a Trinitarian understanding of God prior to his creed. The 5 “sola”s existed conceptually in the Bible long before Luther. That the word “dispensationalism” should one day solidify into a particular systematic theology doesn’t preclude the idea that Christians have long understood that God has dealt with mankind in various “ages” in different ways.

e.g.


Ephesians 3:2-13
King James Version


2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
 






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Bubbajay

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I just believe what the bible says. The rapture and the second coming of Christ are the same thing, and people were saved in the OT by faith as they were in the NT.

Shakespeare may have invented the word lonely, but there were other words to represent the same thing. Athanasius didnt invent the Trinity, he may have coined the term, but didn't invent the doctrine.

The word dispensation in Ephesians means dispensed, as in dispenser. Like a PEZ dispenser for lack of a better analogy lol. It doesn't mean what Charles Nelson Darby meant by dispensationism, or different church ages.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith.
 






Bubbajay

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I was just reading how Irenaeus supposedly taught a pretrib rapture, but after reading what he really said, he writes that the great tribulation is the last tribulations Christians will go through. What church fathers taught a pre tribulation rapture?
 






Red Sky at Morning

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I was just reading how Irenaeus supposedly taught a pretrib rapture, but after reading what he really said, he writes that the great tribulation is the last tribulations Christians will go through. What church fathers taught a pre tribulation rapture?
I am convinced this is extravagant overkill, but it’s also as thorough analysis of the doctrine of the Rapture as I have come across recently:-

 






Bubbajay

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I am convinced this is extravagant overkill, but it’s also as thorough analysis of the doctrine of the Rapture as I have come across recently:-

I still can't find any references where a "church father" taught a pretrib rapture. Can you please give a reference. Its a subject that interests me, not that I give any credence to their beliefs if they're not biblical, but it would be good to know for sure if the doctrine is that old. I've searched for a few hours and still can't find anything.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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I still can't find any references where a "church father" taught a pretrib rapture. Can you please give a reference. Its a subject that interests me, not that I give any credence to their beliefs if they're not biblical, but it would be good to know for sure if the doctrine is that old. I've searched for a few hours and still can't find anything.
Here are a few I came across…


Early Witnesses
After the time of the apostles, a number of writings indicate belief in the imminence of Christ’s return, which is consistent with pre-tribulationism. Clement of Rome (35-101), Ignatius of Antioch (died 110), The Didache (a late first-century anonymous Christian treatise), The Epistle of Pseudo-Barnabas (circa 70-130), and The Shepherd of Hermas (second century) all reference Christ’s imminent return.[2] Even though it appears that the apostolic fathers were largely post-tribulational (because they believed the persecution they were enduring was the tribulation itself), they held to the doctrine of imminency. J. Barton Payne (a post-tribulationist) concluded that “belief in the imminence of the return of Jesus was the uniform hope of the early church.”[3]

But it appears that Irenaeus of Lyon (120-202) was a pre-tribulationist. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John) and articulated his eschatological views in Against Heresies, Book 5. First, he referred to Enoch’s translation and Elijah’s being “caught up” as previews of the Rapture. “For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just. Elijah, too, was caught up [when he was yet] in the substance of the [natural] form; thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in the way of their body being translated and caught up.”[4] Second, Irenaeus refers to the Church’s being “caught up” before the tribulation. “And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be’ (Mat 24:21). For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”[5] The italicized “this” in his quotation is clearly a reference to the tribulation, which he then introduces.

Victorinus of Petrovium (died 304) was a bishop in modern Slovenia, martyred during Diocletian’s reign. In his commentary on Revelation (6:14), he writes, “And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.] For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away.”[6] Later, while explaining Revelation 15, he writes, “And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.] For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst.”[7] Therefore, Victorinus believed the Church would be raptured before the breaking of the seventh seal (and therefore, before the seven trumpet judgments and the seven bowl judgments), making him, at least, what we refer to as “pre-wrath” in his eschatology.

In a sermon entitled “On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World,” Syrian church father Pseudo-Ephraem (fourth to sixth century) wrote, “For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”[8] The gathering Pseudo-Ephraem mentions appears to refer to a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church.

 






Bubbajay

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Here are a few I came across…


Early Witnesses
After the time of the apostles, a number of writings indicate belief in the imminence of Christ’s return, which is consistent with pre-tribulationism. Clement of Rome (35-101), Ignatius of Antioch (died 110), The Didache (a late first-century anonymous Christian treatise), The Epistle of Pseudo-Barnabas (circa 70-130), and The Shepherd of Hermas (second century) all reference Christ’s imminent return.[2] Even though it appears that the apostolic fathers were largely post-tribulational (because they believed the persecution they were enduring was the tribulation itself), they held to the doctrine of imminency. J. Barton Payne (a post-tribulationist) concluded that “belief in the imminence of the return of Jesus was the uniform hope of the early church.”[3]

But it appears that Irenaeus of Lyon (120-202) was a pre-tribulationist. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John) and articulated his eschatological views in Against Heresies, Book 5. First, he referred to Enoch’s translation and Elijah’s being “caught up” as previews of the Rapture. “For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just. Elijah, too, was caught up [when he was yet] in the substance of the [natural] form; thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in the way of their body being translated and caught up.”[4] Second, Irenaeus refers to the Church’s being “caught up” before the tribulation. “And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be’ (Mat 24:21). For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”[5] The italicized “this” in his quotation is clearly a reference to the tribulation, which he then introduces.

Victorinus of Petrovium (died 304) was a bishop in modern Slovenia, martyred during Diocletian’s reign. In his commentary on Revelation (6:14), he writes, “And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.] For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away.”[6] Later, while explaining Revelation 15, he writes, “And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.] For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst.”[7] Therefore, Victorinus believed the Church would be raptured before the breaking of the seventh seal (and therefore, before the seven trumpet judgments and the seven bowl judgments), making him, at least, what we refer to as “pre-wrath” in his eschatology.

In a sermon entitled “On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World,” Syrian church father Pseudo-Ephraem (fourth to sixth century) wrote, “For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”[8] The gathering Pseudo-Ephraem mentions appears to refer to a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church.

That's the website I was reading as well. The person who wrote it claims Irenaeus is teaching a pretrib rapture when the part he quoted from him says the opposite, that the tribulation of Matthew will be the last tribulation Christians will suffer. he clearly says Christians will see the great tribulation of Matthew. The person who made the site was trying to twist his words

"here shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be’ (Mat 24:21). For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”
 






SomeNOBODY0

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Yeah right, the whole world already knows these guys ain't gonna do anything but talk, everybody is just waiting for the first shoe to drop. I think it's funny in a tragic way that most Americans have no care at all about how this is gonna shake out for us little guys that are stuck with these evil officials, both elected and otherwise, who destroy the world and set us up to bleed for them when vengeance is served. I mean no disrespect towards you Red :)
 






TokiEl

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Victorinus of Petrovium (died 304) was a bishop in modern Slovenia, martyred during Diocletian’s reign. In his commentary on Revelation (6:14), he writes, “And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.] For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away.”[6] Later, while explaining Revelation 15, he writes, “And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.] For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst.”[7] Therefore, Victorinus believed the Church would be raptured before the breaking of the seventh seal (and therefore, before the seven trumpet judgments and the seven bowl judgments), making him, at least, what we refer to as “pre-wrath” in his eschatology.
Victorinus believe in a rapture at the 6th seal.

And of course it can't possibly be before that... because christians are martyred at the 5th seal.


Now we are at the 1st seal... and are awaiting the 2nd seal.

Or at least that's what i feel.
 






Bubbajay

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Victorinus believe in a rapture at the 6th seal.

And of course it can't possibly be before that... because christians are martyred at the 5th seal.


Now we are at the 1st seal... and are awaiting the 2nd seal.

Or at least that's what i feel.
I believe Christians will be called up when Jesus returns right before the wrath of God is poured out. We Christians will not see the wrath of God. I believe we will see persecution, but we will be here to win people to the Lord before he arrives. I also believe that during the tribulation there will be a revival of the gospel because of the believers spreading the gospel as well.
 






Bubbajay

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Victorinus believe in a rapture at the 6th seal.

And of course it can't possibly be before that... because christians are martyred at the 5th seal.


Now we are at the 1st seal... and are awaiting the 2nd seal.

Or at least that's what i feel.
It sounds as though he's teaching that the rapture will occur right before Gods wrath. I could be wrong, but that's what I make of it.
 






elsbet

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Yeah right, the whole world already knows these guys ain't gonna do anything but talk, everybody is just waiting for the first shoe to drop. I think it's funny in a tragic way that most Americans have no care at all about how this is gonna shake out for us little guys that are stuck with these evil officials, both elected and otherwise, who destroy the world and set us up to bleed for them when vengeance is served. I mean no disrespect towards you Red :)
Oi... Red's English.
(And he's probably never said Oi in his life.)

:)
 






SomeNOBODY0

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Oi... Red's English.
(And he's probably never said Oi in his life.)

:)
Yeah I just meant I had something nasty to say to his post, I just really don't like anything about this administration or their words and deeds and I couldn't resist saying something mildly nasty at their expense :)
 






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