Nakba Day

Thunderian

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Asking the question "What caused the Palestinian refugee problem?" with an answer that doesn't include "Ideological zionists violently invading the land of Palestine" is called propoganda. I'm still researching this information, but if you are blind to the cause of the entire situation, all the other subsequent little details and no more than that
See, this is why you believe lies. I provide you with an actual fact-based argument, and you automatically assume it's propaganda because it doesn't agree with what you've already chosen to believe. Don't you care what the truth is?
 






lightseeker

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See, this is why you believe lies. I provide you with an actual fact-based argument, and you automatically assume it's propaganda because it doesn't agree with what you've already chosen to believe. Don't you care what the truth is?
Yes I do care what the truth is. And truth is not exclusionary, it takes the entirety into account. Zionists invaded the land of palestine, a land which had a native population, with the intention of conquoring it on the basis of a racially supremacist and exclusionary ideology. The natives were then displaced because of this invasion. Skewing that fact and ignoring it, justifying it, downplaying it, acting like it doesnt matter, is not taking into account what "the truth" of that situation is. When you or zio propogandists speak about Israel, you talk about it like "we were defending our land!" when the reason they were there in the first place was due to uncountable crimes and atrocities like those of the Irgun. If these didn't happen, none of the subsequent problems would exist.
 






Thunderian

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Yes I do care what the truth is. And truth is not exclusionary, it takes the entirety into account. Zionists invaded the land of palestine, a land which had a native population, with the intention of conquoring it on the basis of a racially supremacist and exclusionary ideology. The natives were then displaced because of this invasion. Skewing that fact and ignoring it, justifying it, downplaying it, acting like it doesnt matter, is not taking into account what "the truth" of that situation is. When you or zio propogandists speak about Israel, you talk about it like "we were defending our land!" when the reason they were there in the first place was due to uncountable crimes and atrocities like those of the Irgun. If these didn't happen, none of the subsequent problems would exist.
OK, what was the date of the Zionist invasion?
 






Thunderian

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It started at the first zionist conference in 1897. The first military activities were the early Irgun terrorist movements in the late 1920s and early 1930s
So how did the invasion work? It would have had to be a pretty big invading force, to push out all the indigenous Arabs. Can you provide a timeline or something, with major conflicts and demographic information? That surely exists, right? I mean, if you’re not just pulling these statements out of your ass. I provided dates, quotes, and other information to back up what I’m saying. Where’s your hard data?

Also, what was the deal until 1948? If the Jews started invading back in the 1890’s, why did it take so long for the Arabs to fight back? Did they not know they were being invaded? Were all the Jews hiding until they declared independence, and then they jumped out and started pushing Palestinians toward Syria and Jordan?

I don’t tend to believe things until I’m convinced, and I’ve seen not one convincing detail on this or any other thread that makes me think I’m wrong to accept facts and not your fantastical tales of invading Jews.
 






lightseeker

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So how did the invasion work? It would have had to be a pretty big invading force, to push out all the indigenous Arabs. Can you provide a timeline or something, with major conflicts and demographic information? That surely exists, right? I mean, if you’re not just pulling these statements out of your ass. I provided dates, quotes, and other information to back up what I’m saying. Where’s your hard data?

Also, what was the deal until 1948? If the Jews started invading back in the 1890’s, why did it take so long for the Arabs to fight back? Did they not know they were being invaded? Were all the Jews hiding until they declared independence, and then they jumped out and started pushing Palestinians toward Syria and Jordan?

I don’t tend to believe things until I’m convinced, and I’ve seen not one convincing detail on this or any other thread that makes me think I’m wrong to accept facts and not your fantastical tales of invading Jews.
Not sure what your looking for here boss. You don’t think Jews invaded the land with the intention to colonize it? If we’re switching to overarching meta statements maybe you could provide me with what you believe happened, how and why the Jewish people ended up there as the rulers of the land when most lived in Russia or elsewhere before
 






lightseeker

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Nakba day is not just a historical micro event that can be taken out of its greater context, but a continuing process that started in the 1890s. Not sure if that went over your head. You can’t just start in the middle saying, “Jews didn’t kick the Palestinians out of their homes, they left hecause there was a war starting“ yeah there was a war starting because of the racial supremacist ideology of the zionists. The fact that Arabs asked them to leave their homes, if that is true, is irrelavant. Sure the zionists would have been happy to kill them all in their homes I’m sure, as they continually demonstrate. It doesn’t change “the truth” of the situation as you say which is the entire context of the events.
 






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Tidal

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Please take a moment to remember the 750,000 Palestinians driven from their homes and forced into refugee camps during the ethnic cleansing of 1948..

How many of the 750,000 did the Israelis actually kill? And did they do it with firing squads or gassing or what?
 






shankara

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What caused the Palestinian refugee problem? 13 important stories told by refugees from 1948
Itamar Marcus | May 16, 2018

What caused the Palestinian refugee problem?

Exclusive PMW video compilation of 13 personal stories
told by refugees themselves

  • "Cars with megaphones roamed the streets, demanding that people leave"
  • "The one who made us leave was the Jordanian army"
  • "The radio stations of the Arab regimes kept repeating to us: 'Get away'"
  • "Our [Arab] district officer issued an order that whoever stays in Palestine is a traitor"
  • The Arab Salvation Army told the Palestinians: "We have come to you in order to exterminate the Zionists... Leave your houses and villages, you'll return to them safely in a few days."

  • "The Arab Salvation Army said: 'Leave, but don't go far from the village because they [the Jews] will make a short visit...' The people left with nothing, even without bread."

By Itamar Marcus
What caused the Palestinian refugee problem? Why did hundreds of thousands of Arabs leave their homes during Israel's War of Independence in 1948?

This new Palestinian Media Watch video compilation adds important evidence to help clarify this question of historical importance. The video includes 13 personal stories mostly by Palestinian refugees from different regions telling what caused them to leave their homes in 1948. The common denominator of these testimonies is that the massive flight of Arabs was not from an Israeli "expulsion," as the PA claims, but was the result of a strategic decision by the Arab leaders and Arab armies who demanded that the Arabs leave. Others describe their families' decisions to leave because of fear of the coming battles. Some of the testimonies are from people who moved on to leadership positions, such as PA leader Mahmoud Abbas, who explains why his family along with the Arabs of Safed made the choice to leave. A few of the accounts are by Palestinian journalists who describe what caused the general flight.

Summing up the reasons Arabs left, Mahmoud Al-Habbash, currently one of the top Palestinian Authority religious figures, wrote:
"Most of them did not leave until they believed the false promises made by the [Arab] leaders and the political elites."
[Official PA daily, Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Dec. 13, 2006]

See full transcripts of all 13 testimonies below

One of the common messages is bitterness over those "false promises" by the Arab leaders. One expressed it this way:
"The Arab regimes kept repeating...: 'Get away... It's a matter of ten days, or at most two weeks, and we'll bring you back...' We said to ourselves, 'That's a very long time. Two weeks is too much.' That's what we thought [then]. And now 50 years have gone by."

[Official PA TV, July 7, 2009]
Another lamented:
"Indeed there were among us those who left a fire burning under the pot, those who left their flocks of sheep, and those who left their money and gold behind, based on the assumption that we would return after a few hours."

[Al-Ayyam, May 16, 2006]
One refugee blamed Jordan:
"The one who made us leave was the Jordanian army... They told us: 'Leave. In 2 hours we liberate it and then you'll return.' ... We're still waiting for those 2 hours to this day."

[Official PA TV, May 15, 2013]
A striking example of how the Arabs of Israel ended up in refugee camps in neighboring countries is what happened in Jaffa (Tel Aviv):
"Cars with megaphones roamed the streets, demanding that people leave so the fighting [against Israel] would succeed... We went to the port and boarded a ship."

[Official PA TV, Oct. 2, 2014]
A number of points are very significant. First, these testimonies - though personal stories - are also describing large-scale movements, such as the flight from major cities like Jaffa and Safed. Second, they describe general orders to leave by Arab leaders and armies, broadcast on Arab radio to the entire Arab population. Third, the testimonies are presented openly by refugees themselves and by public figures, including leaders, in the official PA media. All of this suggests that awareness of Arab responsibility for the refugee problem must be widespread among the Palestinian population itself - even though Palestinian leaders refuse to accept responsibility in international forums.

These testimonies are even more critical today as tens of thousands of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, the majority of whose residents the PA still classifies as "refugees," are participating in the violent demonstrations Hamas has named "the March of Return" - meaning, the return to "Palestine" and the end of the State of Israel. Hamas' claim to "return" is based on the Palestinian allegation that they were unjustly expelled by Israel. However, these personal testimonies by Palestinian refugees themselves tell a very different story.

The following is the transcript of the personal stories and testimonies in the video compilation:

How we really became refugees:
13 Palestinians tell their personal stories

Why I left Bir Ma'in - Orders of Jordanian army, promised we would "return in 2 hours"
PA TV reporter:
"How did you leave Bir Ma'in? Did you experience the Nakba?"
Fuad Khader: "We left, I mean, the one who made us leave was the Jordanian army, because there were going to be battles and we would be under their feet. They told us: 'Leave. In 2 hours we liberate it and then you'll return.' We left only with our clothes, we didn't take anything because we were supposed to return in 2 hours. Why carry anything? We're still waiting for those 2 hours to this day."
[Official PA TV, May 15, 2013]
Why I left Ein Karem - Orders from Arab regimes: "Get away [for] at most two weeks"
Refugee from Ein Karem:
"The radio stations of the Arab regimes kept repeating to us: 'Get away from the frontline. It's a matter of ten days, or at most two weeks, and we'll bring you back to Ein Karem [in Jerusalem].' And we said to ourselves, 'That's a very long time. Two weeks is too much.' That's what we thought [then]. And now 50 years have gone by."
[Official PA TV, July 7, 2009]
Why I left Safed - Out of fear
PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas:
"The [Arab] Salvation Army withdrew from the city [Safed in 1948], causing the [Arab] people to begin emigrating. In Safed, just like Hebron, people were afraid that the Jews would take revenge for the [Arab] massacre in 1929 (Note: 65 Jews were murdered in Hebron, 18 in Safed) ... [In 1948] the people were overcome with fear, and it caused them to leave the city in a disorderly way."
[Official PA TV, Jan. 1, 2013]
Why I left Jaffa - Orders from Arab fighters
Pa TV host:
"Abu Ghazaleh, tell us nice memories of Jaffa..."
Former Jordanian MP Talal Abu Ghazaleh: "Cars with megaphones roamed the streets, demanding that people leave so the fighting [against Israel] would succeed. They called to us in Arabic to leave our homes: 'We - the Palestinians, the fighters - want to fight, and don't want you to impede us so we ask you to leave the city [Jaffa] immediately ...' All of us - me, my family, and the others - left any way we could. We went to the port and boarded a ship."
[Official PA TV, Oct. 2, 2014]
Why I left Kafr Saba - We were told to "evacuate village" and assumed we would "return after a few hours"
Asmaa Jabir Balasimah (PMW narration of newspaper):
"We heard sounds of explosions and of gunfire at the beginning of the summer in the year of the Nakba [1948]. We were told that the Jews attacked our region and it is better to evacuate the village and return after the battle is over. And indeed there were among us those who left a fire burning under the pot, those who left their flocks of sheep, and those who left their money and gold behind, based on the assumption that we would return after a few hours."
[Al-Ayyam, May 16, 2006]
Why I left Majdal - Orders from Arab district officer
Refugee in Gaza (talking on the phone):
"My grandfather and my father told me that during the Nakba our [Arab] district officer issued an order that whoever stays in Palestine and in Majdal is a traitor."
Head of Islamic Movement in Israel Ibrahim Sarsur: "The one who gave the order forbidding them to stay there bears guilt for this, in this life and the Afterlife throughout history until Resurrection Day."
[Official PA TV, April 30, 1999]
Why I left Dir Al-Qasi - We were told we'd return "in a week or two"
Sadek Mufid:
"We headed first from Dir Al-Qasi to Rmaich [in Lebanon], because of what they said at the time: 'By Allah, in a week or two, you'll return to Palestine.' The Arab armies entered Palestine, along with the Arab Salvation Army. We left - we and those who fled with us - and we all headed for Lebanon."
[Official PA TV, Feb. 9, 2010]
Why I left Safed - Family decision out of fear "hoping we would return
PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas:
"To be honest, we were afraid. My family decided - I was the oldest of those who left with my brother's wife and his two children - that they would move us... I had two pairs of shoes, a new pair and an old pair. I said: ''I'll leave with the old pair, and leave the new pair for when we come back...'' We left hoping we would return. They took us east, east of Safed, to the Jordan River."
[Abbas' Facebook page May 14, 2014]
Why I left Jerusalem - Out of fear expecting to return in "two weeks"
PA TV narrator about poet Iskandar Khuri:
"His family left first with other families due to the increasing pressure of terror by the Zionist gangs, in order to protect their lives, and because they thought that their absence from their homes would not last longer than two weeks, and that they would return to them after the entry of the Arab armies into Palestine."
[Official PA TV, Sept. 8, 2016]
Why Arabs left - Orders of Arab Salvation Army, you'll return "in a few days"
Journalist Jawad Al Bashiti (PMW narration of newspaper):
"In the Palestinian Nakba, the first war between Arabs and Israel had started and the Arab Salvation Army told the Palestinians: 'We have come to you in order to exterminate the Zionists and their state. Leave your houses and villages, you'll return to them safely in a few days.'"
[Al-Ayyam, May 13, 2008]
Why Arabs left - Promises by Arab leaders they would return in "a few days or months"
Mahmoud Al-Habbash (PMW narration of newspaper):
"The leaders and the elites promised us at the beginning of the Nakba in 1948, that the duration of the exile would not be long, and that it would not last more than a few days or months, and afterwards the refugees would return to their homes, which most of them did not leave until they believed the false promises made by the leaders and the political elites."
[Official PA daily, Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Dec. 13, 2006]
Why Arabs left in 1948 - Orders of Arab leaders
PA daily columnist Fuad Abu Hajla (PMW narration of newspaper):
"You [Arab leaders] are still searching for the way to provide aid, like one who is looking for a needle in a haystack, or like the armies of your predecessors in 1948 who forced us to emigrate, on the pretext of clearing the battlefields of civilians."
[Official PA daily, Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, March 19, 2001]
Why I left Allar - Orders of Arab army - "Leave... then you will return"
Ali Muhammad Karake:
"When news reached us that the Jews were nearing our village, the Arab [Salvation] Army - may Allah protect them - came and said: Leave the village so it won't happen to you, like Deir Yassin." They slaughter, and do things." They said: "Leave, but don't go far from the village because they [the Jews] will make a short visit to the village, leave, and then you'll return to the village." The people left with nothing, even without bread and went to the mountains, and pitched [tents]."
[Al-Quds daily YouTube channel, May 17, 2016]
Arabs rejected Jews' offer to live together in Israel
Abu Muhammad 'Amara:
"The truth is that the Jews brought a mediator to us, a person we knew and who knew us. They gave us choices. The first choice was that you hand over your weapons and stay on your land and live the way you live. The second choice was that you leave if you don't want to hand over [your weapons]. If you don't want to leave and go away, prepare yourselves for battle. All three were hard... For me, handing over my rifle at that time [was] actually like handing over my wife."
[Official PA TV May 15, 2013]

Hmm, there are plenty of oral testimonies which say the exact opposite as well, that it was the Israelis who intentionally made the expulsions. In any case, even if in some places (certainly not all) there might once the expulsions by the Israelis had already begun been Arab advice to leave, the refugees nonetheless would remain entitled to the land they left i.e. they have the right to return. Even if others persuaded them to leave, the Israelis have no right to take control of their houses and farms just due to that.

You quote this:
"When news reached us that the Jews were nearing our village, the Arab [Salvation] Army - may Allah protect them - came and said: Leave the village so it won't happen to you, like Deir Yassin."

What this is saying is that they were told to leave so as not to be massacred by the Zionists, as was the case in Deir Yassin.


How many of the 750,000 did the Israelis actually kill? And did they do it with firing squads or gassing or what?
I don't think anyone would be able to come up with an exact figure, for example the best records of that sort of thing would be military archives but they are obviously biased and on occasion altered. Basically the expulsion was with the threat of violence, though there was shelling, shooting by snipers etc. In many villages they executed anyone suspected of being against them.

Really it's not so much about how many were killed in the process, but about the fact that so many people were driven from their land, which had been inhabited by their ancestors for centuries. Though of course if you look at the casualty figures in the Zionist-Palestinian conflict, they are much higher on the Palestinian side.
 






Stucky

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I don’t tend to believe things until I’m convinced, and I’ve seen not one convincing detail on this or any other thread that makes me think I’m wrong to accept facts and not your fantastical tales of invading Jews.
The things that you got wrong that immediately stuck out were the Economist article's claims which were at best a 2nd hand account or at worst an outright lie. and the claim about the "the Near East Broadcasting Station (Cyprus) ..." every broadcast was checked by Childers and he didn't find a single Arab order for civilians to flee. He actually found the opposite to be true.
 






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Tidal

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I'm puzzled. According to Wiki there are almost 2 million Arabs living in Israel alongside over 6 million jews, so if the jews really are nasty, why haven't they expelled or genocided or ethnically cleansed those Arabs?
 






lightseeker

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Because the Israelis are obsessed with their public image. That’s why they, with the biggest lobby in the united states being their foreign government, have been working to pass laws in the United States against anyone criticizing or boycotting them. If American sentiment turned against them and America didn’t fight their wars for them or send them billions of their tax payers money their country probably couldn’t exist. But most Israelis would be happy to genocide them and express it pretty candidly

 






Thunderian

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Not sure what your looking for here boss. You don’t think Jews invaded the land with the intention to colonize it? If we’re switching to overarching meta statements maybe you could provide me with what you believe happened, how and why the Jewish people ended up there as the rulers of the land when most lived in Russia or elsewhere before
I'm looking for your honest, fact-based case for the invasion you and others keep talking about, because there's nothing historical to support anything like that, and I'm not sure why anyone would believe it.

The Jews didn't ever make it a secret that they consider the land in question as their homeland, and history agrees with them. But they didn't invade it when they began to return in the 1800's. They immigrated to the land, just as most of the Arabs who live there now immigrated to at some point. Invaders don't bring along their kids and grandparents, and the Jews didn't show up as an invading force. They simply wanted to live in the land where their people had been living for thousands of years, and they had no problem sharing it with anyone else who was already living there.

Or do you believe that every Jew who moved to Palestine displaced an opposite who was an Arab? The evidence is that Jews purchased land from landowners who wished to sell it, or legally reclaimed desert land that no one owned or wanted. As they brought money and technology with them, they built businesses that, in turn, attracted more immigration from surrounding Arab countries. The descendants of those economic immigrants from Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere are today's "Palestinians", who have no more ancestral claim on the land than anyone else does.

There has always been plenty of room in Palestine, but Arabs didn't want to share with the Jews who wished to live in their ancestral home. When the British pulled out, all Palestinians -- Jew and Arab -- were given the opportunity to form a nation together. Arabs rejected the idea completely, so the Jews created Israel, and invited any Arabs living within the boundaries of Israel to become citizens and join them in building the country. Arabs responded with a war of extermination.

That is history. That is fact. The narrative that invading Zionist Jews came in and took over Palestine is a totally unsupported lie. Why do you continue to believe it?
 






lightseeker

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I'm looking for your honest, fact-based case for the invasion you and others keep talking about, because there's nothing historical to support anything like that, and I'm not sure why anyone would believe it.

The Jews didn't ever make it a secret that they consider the land in question as their homeland, and history agrees with them. But they didn't invade it when they began to return in the 1800's. They immigrated to the land, just as most of the Arabs who live there now immigrated to at some point. Invaders don't bring along their kids and grandparents, and the Jews didn't show up as an invading force. They simply wanted to live in the land where their people had been living for thousands of years, and they had no problem sharing it with anyone else who was already living there.

Or do you believe that every Jew who moved to Palestine displaced an opposite who was an Arab? The evidence is that Jews purchased land from landowners who wished to sell it, or legally reclaimed desert land that no one owned or wanted. As they brought money and technology with them, they built businesses that, in turn, attracted more immigration from surrounding Arab countries. The descendants of those economic immigrants from Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere are today's "Palestinians", who have no more ancestral claim on the land than anyone else does.

There has always been plenty of room in Palestine, but Arabs didn't want to share with the Jews who wished to live in their ancestral home. When the British pulled out, all Palestinians -- Jew and Arab -- were given the opportunity to form a nation together. Arabs rejected the idea completely, so the Jews created Israel, and invited any Arabs living within the boundaries of Israel to become citizens and join them in building the country. Arabs responded with a war of extermination.

That is history. That is fact. The narrative that invading Zionist Jews came in and took over Palestine is a totally unsupported lie. Why do you continue to believe it?
What a beautiful fairy tale. So nice I almost don't even want to tell you its a complete fabrication and just let you live in your boomer fantasies

Here's why murdering people and taking their houses for the chosen race of god is racist and insane 101
1. Palestinian family living in the West bank
2. Israelis come under any pretext they want with the army and smash the house down
3. Using the IDF, force the Palestinians to go live in a refugee camp
4. Where the house used to be, the Israeli government builds Jewish only colonies
5. The settlers go and live in the homes, protected by a wall and armed guards, which by law only Jews can live in


Sleep now boomer....the good guys have won every war....
 






TokiEl

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Today, May 15th, is the day after the State of Israel was born. Please take a moment to remember the 6 million jews burnt up in ovens over Europe and the 78 israeli medics whose lives was cut short in the Hadassah convoy massacre during the civil war of 1948, and their descendants still being blown up shot stabbed and car rammed by arabs who still feel they are entitled to jewish land.
 






Sarge

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I'm puzzled. According to Wiki there are almost 2 million Arabs living in Israel alongside over 6 million jews, so if the jews really are nasty, why haven't they expelled or genocided or ethnically cleansed those Arabs?
You're not puzzled, you just thought you made a smart point but you didn't.
 






Tidal

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Tidal said- I'm puzzled. According to Wiki there are almost 2 million Arabs living in Israel alongside over 6 million jews, so if the jews really are nasty, why haven't they expelled or genocided or ethnically cleansed those Arabs?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You're not puzzled, you just thought you made a smart point but you didn't.
O god please make me smart (sniffle)..
The way I see it, the Jews must be very easy-going to let 2 mill muslims live among them.. :p
 






Sarge

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So easy going they turned an entire city into an open air prison,

Apparently occupying land and annexing more of it forcefully makes you easy going, so long as you don't kill them off too quickly.

Lets hope your lord answers your prayers for 2 brain cells. "amen" ;)
 






Stephania

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“Nakba Day” is a load of shit.

How did the millions of Palestinians who are citizens of Israel today manage to escape the expulsion and massacres if they were all driven from their land and killed 70 years ago? What ignorant garbage.
Your comments are ignorant garbage. One day they will be equated with Holocaust denial.. you ignorant P.O.S.
 






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