Nakba Day

Sarge

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Ilan Pappe is not a credible historian. Benny Morris said about him: "At best, Ilan Pappe must be one of the world’s sloppiest historians; at worst, one of the most dishonest." Morris said of Pappe's book: "... distortions, large and small, characterize almost every page of The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine."

I prize truth above all else, but Pappe said about the truth: “Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts, Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers.”

Why would anyone believe a so-called historian who is rejected by his peers and who himself rejects the idea of a "fact"? What credibility could he possibly have? And you base your view of Israel on this liar? Why?
Thunder, i was reading your replies with curiosity as i'm always happy to learn from the other side, but you lost me here when you used Benny Morris, an Israeli Historian to be critical of Ilan Pappe.

Ilan Pappe would be rejected by 90% of Israeli Historians, simply because they have Israeli bias.

When you are critical of someones work and use phrases like "sloppiest, dishonest, distortions", you can almost guarantee there is a personal element to it. This kind of vitriol is used by Israeli academics/media all the time.
 






Sarge

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Israel is known as being the most humane army in the world.
By whom, Israel and the US. Laughable :)

Apparently being in contravention of over 50 UN resolutions and humanitarian laws makes you the most humane army in the world. Targeting hospitals, using children as human shields and imprisoning your own soldiers who defect must be the way to go these days?
 






Kung Fu

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By whom, Israel and the US. Laughable :)

Apparently being in contravention of over 50 UN resolutions and humanitarian laws makes you the most humane army in the world. Targeting hospitals, using children as human shields and imprisoning your own soldiers who defect must be the way to go these days?
I had to do a double take to make sure what I was reading was real. I'm still in shock. If there was a time to bookmark and save a comment it would be now.
 






shankara

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So you agree with Pappe that the facts aren't important, and that it's ideology that should drive the work of a historian?
Again, if you look at the full quote it seems that he is just saying that nobody is really beyond being influenced by ideology and projecting in some way (hence why he uses the pronoun "we" rather than "I"). Seems to me like an honest assessment of the human condition, and certainly not a reason to reject offhand the work he has produced. So far as I could tell "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" was pretty well-sourced, it didn't strike me as being just an opinion piece. Also, as someone has mentioned, he's obviously going to be attacked by the Israeli historical "establishment" like the guy you quoted, just as happens to anyone who questions the dominant narrative.
 






Stucky

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To deny the Nakba is to deny reality. On the question of Benny 'the great retractor' Morris, here's a couple of quotes,

“Following the outbreak of 1936, no mainstream (Zionist) leader was able to conceive of future coexistence without a clear physical separation between the two peoples — achievable only by transfer and expulsion. Publicly they all continued to speak of coexistence and to attribute the violence to a small minority of zealots and agitators. But this was merely a public pose..Ben Gurion summed up: ‘With compulsory transfer we (would) have a vast area (for settlement)…I support compulsory transfer. I don’t see anything immoral in it,’” Israel historian, Benny Morris, Righteous Victims.


“During May [1948] ideas about how to consolidate and give permanence to the Palestinian exile began to crystallize, and the destruction of villages was immediately perceived as a primary means of achieving this aim…[Even earlier,] On 10 April, Haganah units took Abu Shusha… The village was destroyed that night… Khulda was leveled by Jewish bulldozers on 20 April… Abu Zureiq was completely demolished… Al Mansi and An Naghnaghiya, to the southeast, were also leveled. . .By mid-1949, the majority of [the 350 depopulated Arab villages] were either completely or partly in ruins and uninhabitable.” Benny Morris, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949.

Then there's this as reported in NYT,

"A censorship board composed of five Cabinet members prohibited former Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin from including in his memoirs a first-person account of the expulsion of 50,000 Palestinian civilians from their homes near Tel Aviv during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.”

And if anyone is interested in finding the truth about those Arab messages telling villagers to flee i would suggest looking up Erskine Childers as he exposed the zionist narrative for what it was....A pack of lies!
 






Thunderian

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Thunder, i was reading your replies with curiosity as i'm always happy to learn from the other side, but you lost me here when you used Benny Morris, an Israeli Historian to be critical of Ilan Pappe.

Ilan Pappe would be rejected by 90% of Israeli Historians, simply because they have Israeli bias.

When you are critical of someones work and use phrases like "sloppiest, dishonest, distortions", you can almost guarantee there is a personal element to it. This kind of vitriol is used by Israeli academics/media all the time.
I used Benny Morris because he's another historian that Palestinian history revisionists like to use for their arguments, and it says something that even those who tell some of the same lies Pappe does think his falsehoods are too egregious to stand. As well, Morris gives examples of the lies that Pappe told his book, and those examples stand on their own, and are not affected by Morris's credibility. But don't make the mistake of thinking that Morris is the only one who thinks Pappe is full of shit, and gives examples.

Filmmaker Porter Speakman, Jr., producer and director of the 2010 movie With God on Our Side, has issued a press release acknowledging that a quote attributed to David Ben-Gurion by historian Ilan Pappé is not reliable.​
In his 2006 book The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine (Oneworld Publications), Pappé reported that in a 1937 letter to his son, David Ben-Gurion wrote the following: “The Arabs will have to go, but one needs an opportune moment for making it happen, such as a war.”​
It’s a damning quote and is featured prominently in With God on Our Side. But it does not appear in any of the sources Pappé cites.​
Other critics have also exposed factual errors and fabrications in Pappé’s work. In a review of Pappé’s A History of Modern Palestine for Middle East Quarterly, Israeli scholar Efraim Karsh, a leading critic of the “new historians,” listed many of these falsehoods:​
Yasir Arafat’s birthplace is Cairo and not Jerusalem. The U.N. Special Commission on Palestine (UNSCOP) presented its report on August 31, 1947, not on November 29. Deir Yasin is a village near Jerusalem, and not in Haifa. Lawrence of Arabia had nothing to do with the Anglo-Hashemite correspondence that led to the “Great Arab Revolt” of World War I. Further, this correspondence was initiated by the Hashemites not by the British. Pappé even misspells the official English transliteration of President Weizmann’s first name (Chaim, not Haim).​
More serious is the book’s consistent resort to factual misrepresentation, distortion, and outright falsehood. Readers are told of events that never happened, such as the nonexistent May 1948 Tantura “massacre” or the expulsion of Arabs within twelve days of the partition resolution. They learn of political decisions that were never made, such as the Anglo-French 1912 plan for the occupation of Palestine or the contriving of “a master plan to rid the future Jewish state of as many Palestinians as possible.” And they are misinformed about military and political developments, such as the rationale for the Balfour declaration . . .​
 






Thunderian

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Again, if you look at the full quote it seems that he is just saying that nobody is really beyond being influenced by ideology and projecting in some way (hence why he uses the pronoun "we" rather than "I"). Seems to me like an honest assessment of the human condition, and certainly not a reason to reject offhand the work he has produced. So far as I could tell "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" was pretty well-sourced, it didn't strike me as being just an opinion piece. Also, as someone has mentioned, he's obviously going to be attacked by the Israeli historical "establishment" like the guy you quoted, just as happens to anyone who questions the dominant narrative.
You don't have to be on one side or the other to look at the evidence of Pappe's untrustworthiness as an historian and have serious questions about his credibility. Is what he says not being said by anyone else? Why not use those historians, then?
 






Thunderian

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Below is the case, with notes and references that anyone can check for themselves, that Arab leaders did, in fact, tell Palestinians to leave their homes. You guys are great at denying this, but I think you need to refute these direct quotes from Arabs, or somehow otherwise challenge these facts.


MYTH
"Arab leaders never encouraged the Palestinians to flee."
FACT
A plethora of evidence exists demonstrating that Palestinians were encouraged to leave their homes to make way for the invading Arab armies.​
The Economist, a frequent critic of the Zionists, reported on October 2, 1948: "Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit....It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."​
Time's report of the battle for Haifa (May 3, 1948) was similar: "The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by orders of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city....By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa."​
Benny Morris, the historian who documented instances where Palestinians were expelled, also found that Arab leaders encouraged their brethren to leave. The Arab National Committee in Jerusalem, following the March 8, 1948, instructions of the Arab Higher Committee, ordered women, children and the elderly in various parts of Jerusalem to leave their homes: "Any opposition to this order...is an obstacle to the holy war...and will hamper the operations of the fighters in these districts" (Middle Eastern Studies, January 1986).​
Morris also said that in early May units of the Arab Legion reportedly ordered the evacuation of all women and children from the town of Beisan. The Arab Liberation Army was also reported to have ordered the evacuation of another village south of Haifa. The departure of the women and children, Morris says, "tended to sap the morale of the menfolk who were left behind to guard the homes and fields, contributing ultimately to the final evacuation of villages. Such two-tier evacuation — women and children first, the men following weeks later — occurred in Qumiya in the Jezreel Valley, among the Awarna bedouin in Haifa Bay and in various other places."​
Who gave such orders? Leaders like Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, who declared: "We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down."24
The Secretary of the Arab League Office in London, Edward Atiyah, wrote in his book, The Arabs: "This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boastings of an unrealistic Arabic press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re?enter and retake possession of their country."25
In his memoirs, Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, also admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave:
“Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.”26
"The refugees were confident their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two," Monsignor George Hakim, a Greek Orthodox Catholic Bishop of Galilee told the Beirut newspaper, Sada al-Janub (August 16, 1948). "Their leaders had promised them that the Arab Armies would crush the 'Zionist gangs' very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile."​
On April 3, 1949, the Near East Broadcasting Station (Cyprus) said: "It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa and Jerusalem."27
"The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies," according to the Jordanian newspaper Filastin (February 19, 1949).​
One refugee quoted in the Jordan newspaper, Ad Difaa (September 6, 1954), said: "The Arab government told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."​
"The Secretary-General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade," said Habib Issa in the New York Lebanese paper, Al Hoda (June 8, 1951). "He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean....Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down."​
The Arabs' fear was naturally exacerbated by fabricated stories of Jewish atrocities following the attack on Deir Yassin. The native population lacked leaders who could calm them; their spokesmen, such as the Arab Higher Committee, were operating from the safety of neighboring states and did more to arouse their fears than to pacify them. Local military leaders were of little or no comfort. In one instance the commander of Arab troops in Safed went to Damascus. The following day, his troops withdrew from the town. When the residents realized they were defenseless, they fled in panic.28
According to Dr. Walid al-Qamhawi, a former member of the Executive Committee of the PLO, "it was collective fear, moral disintegration and chaos in every field that exiled the Arabs of Tiberias, Haifa and dozens of towns and villages."29
As panic spread throughout Palestine, the early trickle of refugees became a flood, numbering more than 200,000 by the time the provisional government declared the independence of the State of Israel.​
Even Jordan's King Abdullah, writing in his memoirs, blamed Palestinian leaders for the refugee problem:​
The tragedy of the Palestinians was that most of their leaders had paralyzed them with false and unsubstantiated promises that they were not alone; that 80 million Arabs and 400 million Muslims would instantly and miraculously come to their rescue.30
“The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live.”
? Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Mahmud Abbas ("Abu Mazen")31
 






Thunderian

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What caused the Palestinian refugee problem? 13 important stories told by refugees from 1948
Itamar Marcus | May 16, 2018

What caused the Palestinian refugee problem?

Exclusive PMW video compilation of 13 personal stories
told by refugees themselves
  • "Cars with megaphones roamed the streets, demanding that people leave"
  • "The one who made us leave was the Jordanian army"
  • "The radio stations of the Arab regimes kept repeating to us: 'Get away'"
  • "Our [Arab] district officer issued an order that whoever stays in Palestine is a traitor"
  • The Arab Salvation Army told the Palestinians: "We have come to you in order to exterminate the Zionists... Leave your houses and villages, you'll return to them safely in a few days."
  • "The Arab Salvation Army said: 'Leave, but don't go far from the village because they [the Jews] will make a short visit...' The people left with nothing, even without bread."

By Itamar Marcus​
What caused the Palestinian refugee problem? Why did hundreds of thousands of Arabs leave their homes during Israel's War of Independence in 1948?

This new Palestinian Media Watch video compilation adds important evidence to help clarify this question of historical importance. The video includes 13 personal stories mostly by Palestinian refugees from different regions telling what caused them to leave their homes in 1948. The common denominator of these testimonies is that the massive flight of Arabs was not from an Israeli "expulsion," as the PA claims, but was the result of a strategic decision by the Arab leaders and Arab armies who demanded that the Arabs leave. Others describe their families' decisions to leave because of fear of the coming battles. Some of the testimonies are from people who moved on to leadership positions, such as PA leader Mahmoud Abbas, who explains why his family along with the Arabs of Safed made the choice to leave. A few of the accounts are by Palestinian journalists who describe what caused the general flight.

Summing up the reasons Arabs left, Mahmoud Al-Habbash, currently one of the top Palestinian Authority religious figures, wrote:
"Most of them did not leave until they believed the false promises made by the [Arab] leaders and the political elites."
[Official PA daily, Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Dec. 13, 2006]

See full transcripts of all 13 testimonies below

One of the common messages is bitterness over those "false promises" by the Arab leaders. One expressed it this way:
"The Arab regimes kept repeating...: 'Get away... It's a matter of ten days, or at most two weeks, and we'll bring you back...' We said to ourselves, 'That's a very long time. Two weeks is too much.' That's what we thought [then]. And now 50 years have gone by."
[Official PA TV, July 7, 2009]​
Another lamented:
"Indeed there were among us those who left a fire burning under the pot, those who left their flocks of sheep, and those who left their money and gold behind, based on the assumption that we would return after a few hours."
[Al-Ayyam, May 16, 2006]​
One refugee blamed Jordan:
"The one who made us leave was the Jordanian army... They told us: 'Leave. In 2 hours we liberate it and then you'll return.' ... We're still waiting for those 2 hours to this day."
[Official PA TV, May 15, 2013]​
A striking example of how the Arabs of Israel ended up in refugee camps in neighboring countries is what happened in Jaffa (Tel Aviv):
"Cars with megaphones roamed the streets, demanding that people leave so the fighting [against Israel] would succeed... We went to the port and boarded a ship."
[Official PA TV, Oct. 2, 2014]​
A number of points are very significant. First, these testimonies - though personal stories - are also describing large-scale movements, such as the flight from major cities like Jaffa and Safed. Second, they describe general orders to leave by Arab leaders and armies, broadcast on Arab radio to the entire Arab population. Third, the testimonies are presented openly by refugees themselves and by public figures, including leaders, in the official PA media. All of this suggests that awareness of Arab responsibility for the refugee problem must be widespread among the Palestinian population itself - even though Palestinian leaders refuse to accept responsibility in international forums.

These testimonies are even more critical today as tens of thousands of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, the majority of whose residents the PA still classifies as "refugees," are participating in the violent demonstrations Hamas has named "the March of Return" - meaning, the return to "Palestine" and the end of the State of Israel. Hamas' claim to "return" is based on the Palestinian allegation that they were unjustly expelled by Israel. However, these personal testimonies by Palestinian refugees themselves tell a very different story.

The following is the transcript of the personal stories and testimonies in the video compilation:

How we really became refugees:
13 Palestinians tell their personal stories

Why I left Bir Ma'in - Orders of Jordanian army, promised we would "return in 2 hours"
PA TV reporter:
"How did you leave Bir Ma'in? Did you experience the Nakba?"
Fuad Khader: "We left, I mean, the one who made us leave was the Jordanian army, because there were going to be battles and we would be under their feet. They told us: 'Leave. In 2 hours we liberate it and then you'll return.' We left only with our clothes, we didn't take anything because we were supposed to return in 2 hours. Why carry anything? We're still waiting for those 2 hours to this day."
[Official PA TV, May 15, 2013]​
Why I left Ein Karem - Orders from Arab regimes: "Get away [for] at most two weeks"
Refugee from Ein Karem:
"The radio stations of the Arab regimes kept repeating to us: 'Get away from the frontline. It's a matter of ten days, or at most two weeks, and we'll bring you back to Ein Karem [in Jerusalem].' And we said to ourselves, 'That's a very long time. Two weeks is too much.' That's what we thought [then]. And now 50 years have gone by."
[Official PA TV, July 7, 2009]​
Why I left Safed - Out of fear
PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas:
"The [Arab] Salvation Army withdrew from the city [Safed in 1948], causing the [Arab] people to begin emigrating. In Safed, just like Hebron, people were afraid that the Jews would take revenge for the [Arab] massacre in 1929 (Note: 65 Jews were murdered in Hebron, 18 in Safed) ... [In 1948] the people were overcome with fear, and it caused them to leave the city in a disorderly way."
[Official PA TV, Jan. 1, 2013]​
Why I left Jaffa - Orders from Arab fighters
Pa TV host:
"Abu Ghazaleh, tell us nice memories of Jaffa..."
Former Jordanian MP Talal Abu Ghazaleh: "Cars with megaphones roamed the streets, demanding that people leave so the fighting [against Israel] would succeed. They called to us in Arabic to leave our homes: 'We - the Palestinians, the fighters - want to fight, and don't want you to impede us so we ask you to leave the city [Jaffa] immediately ...' All of us - me, my family, and the others - left any way we could. We went to the port and boarded a ship."
[Official PA TV, Oct. 2, 2014]​
Why I left Kafr Saba - We were told to "evacuate village" and assumed we would "return after a few hours"
Asmaa Jabir Balasimah (PMW narration of newspaper):
"We heard sounds of explosions and of gunfire at the beginning of the summer in the year of the Nakba [1948]. We were told that the Jews attacked our region and it is better to evacuate the village and return after the battle is over. And indeed there were among us those who left a fire burning under the pot, those who left their flocks of sheep, and those who left their money and gold behind, based on the assumption that we would return after a few hours."
[Al-Ayyam, May 16, 2006]​
Why I left Majdal - Orders from Arab district officer
Refugee in Gaza (talking on the phone):
"My grandfather and my father told me that during the Nakba our [Arab] district officer issued an order that whoever stays in Palestine and in Majdal is a traitor."
Head of Islamic Movement in Israel Ibrahim Sarsur: "The one who gave the order forbidding them to stay there bears guilt for this, in this life and the Afterlife throughout history until Resurrection Day."
[Official PA TV, April 30, 1999]​
Why I left Dir Al-Qasi - We were told we'd return "in a week or two"
Sadek Mufid:
"We headed first from Dir Al-Qasi to Rmaich [in Lebanon], because of what they said at the time: 'By Allah, in a week or two, you'll return to Palestine.' The Arab armies entered Palestine, along with the Arab Salvation Army. We left - we and those who fled with us - and we all headed for Lebanon."
[Official PA TV, Feb. 9, 2010]​
Why I left Safed - Family decision out of fear "hoping we would return
PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas:
"To be honest, we were afraid. My family decided - I was the oldest of those who left with my brother's wife and his two children - that they would move us... I had two pairs of shoes, a new pair and an old pair. I said: ''I'll leave with the old pair, and leave the new pair for when we come back...'' We left hoping we would return. They took us east, east of Safed, to the Jordan River."
[Abbas' Facebook page May 14, 2014]​
Why I left Jerusalem - Out of fear expecting to return in "two weeks"
PA TV narrator about poet Iskandar Khuri:
"His family left first with other families due to the increasing pressure of terror by the Zionist gangs, in order to protect their lives, and because they thought that their absence from their homes would not last longer than two weeks, and that they would return to them after the entry of the Arab armies into Palestine."
[Official PA TV, Sept. 8, 2016]​
Why Arabs left - Orders of Arab Salvation Army, you'll return "in a few days"
Journalist Jawad Al Bashiti (PMW narration of newspaper):
"In the Palestinian Nakba, the first war between Arabs and Israel had started and the Arab Salvation Army told the Palestinians: 'We have come to you in order to exterminate the Zionists and their state. Leave your houses and villages, you'll return to them safely in a few days.'"
[Al-Ayyam, May 13, 2008]​
Why Arabs left - Promises by Arab leaders they would return in "a few days or months"
Mahmoud Al-Habbash (PMW narration of newspaper):
"The leaders and the elites promised us at the beginning of the Nakba in 1948, that the duration of the exile would not be long, and that it would not last more than a few days or months, and afterwards the refugees would return to their homes, which most of them did not leave until they believed the false promises made by the leaders and the political elites."
[Official PA daily, Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Dec. 13, 2006]​
Why Arabs left in 1948 - Orders of Arab leaders
PA daily columnist Fuad Abu Hajla (PMW narration of newspaper):
"You [Arab leaders] are still searching for the way to provide aid, like one who is looking for a needle in a haystack, or like the armies of your predecessors in 1948 who forced us to emigrate, on the pretext of clearing the battlefields of civilians."
[Official PA daily, Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, March 19, 2001]​
Why I left Allar - Orders of Arab army - "Leave... then you will return"
Ali Muhammad Karake:
"When news reached us that the Jews were nearing our village, the Arab [Salvation] Army - may Allah protect them - came and said: Leave the village so it won't happen to you, like Deir Yassin." They slaughter, and do things." They said: "Leave, but don't go far from the village because they [the Jews] will make a short visit to the village, leave, and then you'll return to the village." The people left with nothing, even without bread and went to the mountains, and pitched [tents]."
[Al-Quds daily YouTube channel, May 17, 2016]​
Arabs rejected Jews' offer to live together in Israel
Abu Muhammad 'Amara:
"The truth is that the Jews brought a mediator to us, a person we knew and who knew us. They gave us choices. The first choice was that you hand over your weapons and stay on your land and live the way you live. The second choice was that you leave if you don't want to hand over [your weapons]. If you don't want to leave and go away, prepare yourselves for battle. All three were hard... For me, handing over my rifle at that time [was] actually like handing over my wife."
[Official PA TV May 15, 2013]​

 






Stucky

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Erskine Childers went through every broadcast made and never found any report of Arab leaders asking civilians to flee. Check up on his findings then look at them side by side with what the JVL reports.
 






Thunderian

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Erskine Childers went through every broadcast made and never found any report of Arab leaders asking civilians to flee. Check up on his findings then look at them side by side with what the JVL reports.
Who is Erskine Childers? You can watch Arab leaders who were there openly agreeing on tape that Palestinians were told to leave. Does that not trump anything Erskine Childers says?
 






Stucky

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Actually, no. Check up on him and you'll discover what was really happening.
 






shankara

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You don't have to be on one side or the other to look at the evidence of Pappe's untrustworthiness as an historian and have serious questions about his credibility. Is what he says not being said by anyone else? Why not use those historians, then?
Well if you're giving Benny Morris as a source, it's pretty clear that he is coming at things from an ideological perspective seeing as he claimed that there were expulsions but that these were justified to avoid some kind of Arab genocide of the Jewish presence. This seems to me a rather weak argument, given the Islamic civilization's history of living quite peaceably with the other Abrahamic faiths.

As for everything else you've quoted (rather a lot of information, even "information overload") I'm going to have to do some research and get back to you.
 






Thunderian

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Actually, no. Check up on him and you'll discover what was really happening.
Do you actually expect me to wade through what he’s said to figure out what you’re talking about? Why do you people always ask everyone to do the work for you? If you have an argument, post it for us to read. So far in this thread, the arguments have been, “Read Ilan Pappe,” and, “Read Erskine Childers.” That’s not how it’s done.

What does Childers have to say that abrogates the direct and recorded quotes I’ve provided of people who were there during the “Nakba”?
 






Thunderian

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Well if you're giving Benny Morris as a source,
I gave other examples of people who say Pappe’s full of shit, and there’s a list of some of the things he’s said that are completely made up. Morris has nothing to do with this.
 






lightseeker

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Do you actually expect me to wade through what he’s said to figure out what you’re talking about? Why do you people always ask everyone to do the work for you? If you have an argument, post it for us to read. So far in this thread, the arguments have been, “Read Ilan Pappe,” and, “Read Erskine Childers.” That’s not how it’s done.

What does Childers have to say that abrogates the direct and recorded quotes I’ve provided of people who were there during the “Nakba”?
To be fair all you did was copy and paste some massive walls of text/propoganda and expected that to you your argument as well
 






Thunderian

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To be fair all you did was copy and paste some massive walls of text/propoganda and expected that to you your argument as well
I provided information that backed up what I was saying. I know that's a totally alien concept to you and others on this thread, but it's how arguments generally work.
 






lightseeker

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I provided information that backed up what I was saying. I know that's a totally alien concept to you and others on this thread, but it's how arguments generally work.
Asking the question "What caused the Palestinian refugee problem?" with an answer that doesn't include "Ideological zionists violently invading the land of Palestine" is called propoganda. I'm still researching the particulars in this information, but if you are blind to the cause of the entire situation, all the other subsequent little details and no more than that
 






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