Nakba Day

shankara

Veteran
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
751
Today, May 15th, is Nakba day. Please take a moment to remember the 750,000 Palestinians driven from their homes and forced into refugee camps during the ethnic cleansing of 1948, and their descendants still living in those refugee camps. Not to forget the massacres, including but not only that of Deir Yassin, and the summary executions which took place.

There are those who would like to see this story forgotten, erased. May all honest people keep it's memory alive, and bear witness to the horrors which took place. Now the Americans want to completely finish with all hope for the refugees' right of return, and give East Jerusalem to the zionist state, while legalizing settlements in the West Bank.

Be conscious of this and speak of it, because the real story must be told.




Also, if anyone is interested in learning more, please read "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by Ilan Pappe
 






Joined
Mar 30, 2017
Messages
1,010
Palestine activists use virtual means to mark Nakba Day

@Karlysymon , a quote from the article as per our discussion here:

'Today the world is characterised by the total destruction of life as we know it. The world is trapped in their homes, just as experienced every day by Palestinians in the occupied territories of the West Bank and Gaza'

- Zwelivelile Mandela

What a sad and unfortunate reality.
 






Thunderian

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
6,472
“Nakba Day” is a load of shit.

How did the millions of Palestinians who are citizens of Israel today manage to escape the expulsion and massacres if they were all driven from their land and killed 70 years ago? What ignorant garbage.
 






lightseeker

Veteran
Joined
May 18, 2018
Messages
792
“Nakba Day” is a load of shit.

How did the millions of Palestinians who are citizens of Israel today manage to escape the expulsion and massacres if they were all driven from their land and killed 70 years ago? What ignorant garbage.
“How does this straw man I just made up to call something ignorant garbage exist?”

700 000 were expelled and driven from their lands. 1.1 million still live locked in gaza. And those “citizens” can’t travel on the same roads as the armed invaders (Jews) who displaced them because of their racial supremacy.
 






Thunderian

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
6,472
“How does this straw man I just made up to call something ignorant garbage exist?”

700 000 were expelled and driven from their lands. 1.1 million still live locked in gaza. And those “citizens” can’t travel on the same roads as the armed invaders (Jews) who displaced them because of their racial supremacy.
No one ever wonders how Israel is supposed to have been able to organize a mass expulsion of three-quarters of a million Arabs from Palestine, all while fighting off an invasion from all the rest of the Arabs in the Middle East. The Jews had no international support, other than a UN mandate to build a state, they had few weapons, and they were outnumbered. But they uprooted and expelled an ancient and noble people that had possessed the land for ages? How?

Most of the Arabs who were living in what is now Israel left ahead of the coming invasion by troops from surrounding Arab nations. Palestinian Arabs were told by Arab leaders to remove themselves from their homes and land so that Arab troops could massacre all the Jews and sweep the nation of Israel into the sea. Palestinians could either join the attack against the Jews, leave the area as they were instructed to by Arab leaders, or stay and become citizens of Israel, as they were invited to. Many did, and they live and prosper in the state of Israel today.

There was no systemic expulsion or massacre of Palestinians in 1948. There was a war against the Jews in Palestine, started by Arabs, that the Arabs lost. The tragedy is that the world has been told that this is Israel’s fault, while the Palestinian refugee situation continues to be promoted, tended, and used by the UN to punish Israel for not all being massacred by Arabs in 1948.

I have sympathy for the Palestinians who are paying the price for the actions of others who never cared about them, but blaming Israel for the Palestinian situation isn’t an honest reflection of the facts at all, and portraying Israel as some modern Nazi state that grinds the poor Palestinians under their Zionist heel is a damn lie.
 






shankara

Veteran
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
751
No one ever wonders how Israel is supposed to have been able to organize a mass expulsion of three-quarters of a million Arabs from Palestine, all while fighting off an invasion from all the rest of the Arabs in the Middle East. The Jews had no international support, other than a UN mandate to build a state, they had few weapons, and they were outnumbered. But they uprooted and expelled an ancient and noble people that had possessed the land for ages? How?

Most of the Arabs who were living in what is now Israel left ahead of the coming invasion by troops from surrounding Arab nations. Palestinian Arabs were told by Arab leaders to remove themselves from their homes and land so that Arab troops could massacre all the Jews and sweep the nation of Israel into the sea. Palestinians could either join the attack against the Jews, leave the area as they were instructed to by Arab leaders, or stay and become citizens of Israel, as they were invited to. Many did, and they live and prosper in the state of Israel today.

There was no systemic expulsion or massacre of Palestinians in 1948. There was a war against the Jews in Palestine, started by Arabs, that the Arabs lost. The tragedy is that the world has been told that this is Israel’s fault, while the Palestinian refugee situation continues to be promoted, tended, and used by the UN to punish Israel for not all being massacred by Arabs in 1948.

I have sympathy for the Palestinians who are paying the price for the actions of others who never cared about them, but blaming Israel for the Palestinian situation isn’t an honest reflection of the facts at all, and portraying Israel as some modern Nazi state that grinds the poor Palestinians under their Zionist heel is a damn lie.
Oh yeah so just conveniently ignore the massacres which took place and the villages which were bulldozed. Not only that but Israel removed even their names from the map so that people won't remember. The Arab armies only intervened after the ethnic cleansing had already began, and barely put up much of a fight. The story about Arab leaders giving the orders is just an Israeli fabrication, like the many others they engage in to support their apartheid state - "who controls the past controls the future, who controls the present controls the past".
 






Thunderian

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
6,472
This is from Israel’s Declaration of Independence:

WE APPEAL — in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months — to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.​

As I said, Israel kept the promise of full and equal citizenship and representation for non-Jews in Israel. There have been Arab members of parliament in Israel since the very first election, and Arabs have served in cabinet, have been named to the Israeli Supreme Court, and have been promoted to general in the IDF.

There was no ethnic cleansing. That’s a lie. There is no apartheid. Another lie. Gaza is not an open air prison. Lies upon lies upon lies. Only fools believe and spread things that are so easily proven to be false.
 






shankara

Veteran
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
751
This is from Israel’s Declaration of Independence:
WE APPEAL — in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months — to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.​

As I said, Israel kept the promise of full and equal citizenship and representation for non-Jews in Israel. There have been Arab members of parliament in Israel since the very first election, and Arabs have served in cabinet, have been named to the Israeli Supreme Court, and have been promoted to general in the IDF.

There was no ethnic cleansing. That’s a lie. There is no apartheid. Another lie. Gaza is not an open air prison. Lies upon lies upon lies. Only fools believe and spread things that are so easily proven to be false.
Have you read Ilan Pappe? Because the story as he tells it is pretty clear, and he's looked into both eyewitness testimonies and military records. Israel is always playing the victim, like in the 1967 war which they started with a pre-emptive attack and then claimed it was they who were attacked when in reality all that had happened to them was that a shipping lane was temporarily closed.

So yeah, the state has allowed some semblance of civil rights to those Arabs who were allowed to remain in Israel, mostly to preserve their public image I'd say. Of course the reason that the expulsions took place were to limit that number of Arabs. If they really cared about the people of Palestine they could easily stop the settlement building, allow Jerusalem to be an internationally administered shared capital etc. They could also stop doing things like shooting at Gazans with exploding bullets.

When Israel lets the refugees return, I'll believe that there was no intention to engage in ethnic cleansing.
 






Thunderian

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
6,472
Have you read Ilan Pappe? Because the story as he tells it is pretty clear, and he's looked into both eyewitness testimonies and military records.
Ilan Pappe is not a credible historian. Benny Morris said about him: "At best, Ilan Pappe must be one of the world’s sloppiest historians; at worst, one of the most dishonest." Morris said of Pappe's book: "... distortions, large and small, characterize almost every page of The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine."

I prize truth above all else, but Pappe said about the truth: “Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts, Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers.”

Why would anyone believe a so-called historian who is rejected by his peers and who himself rejects the idea of a "fact"? What credibility could he possibly have? And you base your view of Israel on this liar? Why?
 






shankara

Veteran
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
751
Ilan Pappe is not a credible historian. Benny Morris said about him: "At best, Ilan Pappe must be one of the world’s sloppiest historians; at worst, one of the most dishonest." Morris said of Pappe's book: "... distortions, large and small, characterize almost every page of The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine."

I prize truth above all else, but Pappe said about the truth: “Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts, Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers.”

Why would anyone believe a so-called historian who is rejected by his peers and who himself rejects the idea of a "fact"? What credibility could he possibly have? And you base your view of Israel on this liar? Why?
So the full quote you mentioned I found:

I think both my political commitment and historian known position developped simultaneously. And one supported the other. Because of my ideology I understood documents I saw in the archives the way I understood them, and because of the documents in the archives I became more convinced in the ideological way I took. A complicated process! Some colleague told me I ruined our cause by admitting my ideological platform. Why? Everbody in Israel and Palestine has an ideological platform. Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts. Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers.
First he is saying that he developed his position through studies, and that the more he studied, the more his position developed. Then, in a very honest way, he is saying that really none of us are free from projection and bias. The pronoun "we" obviously signifies that he is talking about historians in general, not just himself. So I don't think that such a statement really reflects anything about his own work, which should really be judged on it's own merits and not based on something he said in an interview.

Clearly Israel has a horrific policy of blood and terror towards the Palestinians, we only have to look at the things that went on during the "Great March of Return". There are all kinds of cases, too many to cite, of human rights abuses, executions, disproportionate responses to any kind of Palestinian resistance. For example, the Israeli soldier who shot a disarmed Palestinian man and received, I believe it was 9 months of imprisonment, and for some elements of Israeli society that was considered too much.

Israel is not some poor suffering victim living under siege. It is a nuclear-armed state created by Zionists in accordance with an agenda, by craft, subterfuge and without regard for the suffering of those who were already living there.
 






lightseeker

Veteran
Joined
May 18, 2018
Messages
792
For example, the Israeli soldier who shot a disarmed Palestinian man and received, I believe it was 9 months of imprisonment, and for some elements of Israeli society that was considered too much.
Are you talking about the Palestinian man who fell out of his wheelchair and an IDF soldier executed him by gunshot? There was big protests that that soldier shouldn't be punished. Absolutely baffling and enraging that people defend this behavior.
 






shankara

Veteran
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
751
Are you talking about the Palestinian man who fell out of his wheelchair and an IDF soldier executed him by gunshot? There was big protests that that soldier shouldn't be punished. Absolutely baffling and enraging that people defend this behavior.
I don't think that was the particular case I was thinking of, actually hadn't heard of it.
 






shankara

Veteran
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
751
Are you talking about the Palestinian man who fell out of his wheelchair and an IDF soldier executed him by gunshot? There was big protests that that soldier shouldn't be punished. Absolutely baffling and enraging that people defend this behavior.
This was the one I was thinking of:
Israeli Soldier Sentenced To 18 Months

Maybe you have a link to something about the case you mentioned? Of course there are tons of stories about the protests, snipers shooting at people clearly wearing vests saying "medic"
 






lightseeker

Veteran
Joined
May 18, 2018
Messages
792
This was the one I was thinking of:
Israeli Soldier Sentenced To 18 Months

Maybe you have a link to something about the case you mentioned? Of course there are tons of stories about the protests, snipers shooting at people clearly wearing vests saying "medic"
Yeah I was getting this story
Mixed up with this
And then there’s this story
Where israeli commandos boarded a ship bringing wheelchairs to the Palestinians and executed them.

There’s so many atrocities committed by the Israelis that it gets tiring to keep them all in order. That's just from my initial search I'll see if I find that story

And all of this because the tribe of Judea controlled a city in modern Palestine for 130 years or so. Literally one city in the region. Judea is only one of the 12 tribes of Israel which biblically described a huge chunk of humanity not just the Jews. And the Rothschild family started a campaign to change the Jewish religion from a spiritual one to a national one so they’d have a lawless base for their crimes. No idea how so many boomers got brainwashed so strongly into this
 






Last edited:

Thunderian

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
6,472
First he is saying that he developed his position through studies, and that the more he studied, the more his position developed. Then, in a very honest way, he is saying that really none of us are free from projection and bias. The pronoun "we" obviously signifies that he is talking about historians in general, not just himself. So I don't think that such a statement really reflects anything about his own work, which should really be judged on it's own merits and not based on something he said in an interview.
So you agree with Pappe that the facts aren't important, and that it's ideology that should drive the work of a historian?

Clearly Israel has a horrific policy of blood and terror towards the Palestinians, we only have to look at the things that went on during the "Great March of Return". There are all kinds of cases, too many to cite, of human rights abuses, executions, disproportionate responses to any kind of Palestinian resistance. For example, the Israeli soldier who shot a disarmed Palestinian man and received, I believe it was 9 months of imprisonment, and for some elements of Israeli society that was considered too much.
Israel is known as being the most humane army in the world. Even during conflicts they supply power, water, and humanitarian relief to Palestinians in Gaza, and when a Hamas rocket knocked out power lines in Gaza, Israel sent it's own technicians into a war zone to repair it. If you bring specific accusations of human rights abuses by Israel against Palestinians, I am sure I can refute them. Most of what you believe to be true about the way Israel treats Palestinians is false, and I am happy to prove that to you. For instance, the unarmed Palestinian that the IDF soldier shot had just stabbed another soldier in a terrorist attack, and wasn't just some hapless Palestinian. I don't agree with his execution, but I'm not going to shed any tears over his death as long as Palestinians are committing terror attacks against innocent Israelis, as he was. The IDF doesn't make a habit of killing innocent Palestinians in cold blood, despite what you believe, or there would be more examples than just one. I bet you think there are more, but there aren't.

Israel is not some poor suffering victim living under siege.
What would you call a nation that has had more than 10,000 rockets launched at it's civilians in the last decade and a half, and has been under constant attack from surrounding nations for the last 70 years? Your choice of historians does your powers of reason and judgement great disservice on this subject.

It is a nuclear-armed state created by Zionists in accordance with an agenda, by craft, subterfuge and without regard for the suffering of those who were already living there.
That's not an accurate representation of the facts at all, but if you accept Pappe as a credible historian, it's no wonder you believe it. As I showed, the people "living there" (most of whom were as recent arrivals as the Jews there) could have joined the new state of Israel as full citizens. Conversely, they could have declared the remainder of Palestine to be an Arab state. Those who chose neither have only themselves to blame if they don't have a country today.
 






Kung Fu

Star
Joined
Mar 24, 2017
Messages
4,790

pescatarian09

Established
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
440
Wikipedia, according to its own founder (Larry Sanger), has become 'badly biased'.

“It is time for Wikipedia to come clean and admit that it has abandoned NPOV (i.e., neutrality as a policy). At the very least they should admit that that they have redefined the term in a way that makes it utterly incompatible with its original notion of neutrality, which is the ordinary and common one,” Sanger stated.

However, he concluded by acknowledging that “Wikipedians are unlikely to concede any such thing; they live in a fantasy world of their own making. This might finally be having an effect, as Wikipedia’s Alexa ranking has dropped within the last year from five to 12 or 13.”

 






Top