Todd
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This thread is specifically to give @Douglas Summers my idea of salvation. It's going to be a long post as it is so for know I will leave out the scripture quotes and references. However anyone is free to ask for scripture references to back up anything I say in this post.
What Salvation is.
Salvation is not escape form eternal damnation. Salvation is freedom from the power of sin.
In the old testament there is no concept of hell as a place of eternal torment. When mankind fell into sin God declared that the punishment (wages) of sin is death. God never said the wages of sin was eternal suffering and torment.
There are two kinds of death. Spiritual death which is separation from fellowship with God and physical death, which is simply ceasing to exist. We do not have immortal souls that exist without a body.
No where in the OT did God ever say the punishment for sin is eternal damnation. It simply says it’s death. Death is a process. Any doctor or scientist will tell you that once we have matured from a physical child to a mature physical adult our bodies are in a constant state of decay until we eventually die. This is the nature of the fallen world we live in. Because of the sin nature our bodies are in a gradual state of decay. Death is constantly working in our physical bodies.
The Old Testament talks about God chastening those he loves to purify them. Fire is representative of God’s corrective punishment that is used to purify those he loves. Just as a decent natural parent has unconditional love for his or her Child, God has unconditional love for every person ever born.
We all suffer the consequences of our sin, both spiritually and physically in the here and now. Spiritually we must all die to ourselves and surrender to the will of God to be freed from the power of sin, or else we will live apart form God in state of spiritual death. In our own strength and ability we are not capable of doing this.
Physically we will all endure death and cease to exist. We do not have immortal souls. Every person who has ever existed on the earth and died physically is dead and gone and currently ceases to exist in any state. There are no humans in heaven yet, save for one, who is the first fruit of the resurrection. None of us (including Ray Kurzweil no matter how hard he tries) have the ability to escape physical death.
Because God loved the world he sent his Son so that we could have the life of the ages. (“eternal” is a poor translation of the word aionios). What is the life of the ages (or what most Christians call eternal life)? Eternal life is not simply the continuation of life in the ages to come. The life of the ages is simply to know God and have fellowship with him. Those who don’t know God cannot have life. Because their sin separates them from God, they only have death.
We who know God have life and we have life more abundantly. It’s not a promise of life in the ages to come, it’s the realization of life (fellowship with God) in the here and now. When the bible says the unbeliever shall perish, it’s not talking about a future state. Those who don’t know God are perishing (dying) in the here and now. They shall perish (cease to exist) in their sin.
If we truly know God, then we will be grieved by sin. If we are grieved by our sin, we will have Godly sorrow which the bible says leads us to repentance. Repentance is turning away from sin. When we turn away from our sin, God forgives us and we can remain in fellowship with him.
However due to the fallen nature of the world we are born into, we are all conditioned to live selfishly by our sin nature. We are not capable of repenting and turning from our sin in our own strength or ability.
God sent Jesus the messiah to be our example and show us what a man completely surrendered to God looks like. Because the wages of sin is death, all of mankind is held captive by the power of death.
God did not need Jesus to die on the cross to forgive our sin. God continually forgave sin in the OT. It’s a common misunderstanding that blood is required for the forgiveness of sin. This misunderstanding is based on a poor understanding of Hebrews 9:22. The word translated as forgiveness in that verse is “Aphesis” and it really means release or deliverance. As in the deliverance of the Israelites from Egypt. The story of the Exodus is a foreshadow of our release from the power of sin, so that we can have life. In the OT God commanded the Israelites to choose life by choosing the terms of his covenant after he released them from Egypt. If they committed to live according to God’s ways he would give them abundant life. The Blood of the exodus lamb on the doorposts was not for forgiveness of sin. The blood was for the release of the Israelites form Egypt and to initiate a covenant. The release from Egypt represents our release from our former lives of Sin. The blood of Jesus was not required so that God could forgive our sin, it was required to initiate the new covenant, where God’s laws are written on our heart.
When laws are written on stone tablets we do not have the ability in our own strength and will to follow them. When God writes his law on our heart by his grace, we surrender to Christ as Lord and let him live through us. We are able to live according to God’s way so that we may have life and life more abundantly. Jesus blood was not for forgiveness it was for atonement. Atonement is the reparation ( making amends for a wrong) of our sin. The wrong of our sin is that we are under the curse of death and cannot experience the life God has for us. The atonement is what allows us to regain fellowship with God.
Christians make sin a bigger issue to God than it really is. It is nothing for God to forgive sin. It’s an annoyance to him, as it is a serious determent to our ability to experience life. Sin is only a big deal to God because of what it does to us, not what it does to him. We cannot hurt God by our sin, we only hurt ourselves. Because he loves us and wants the best for us, sin grieves God, but it cannot hurt him or change him. God does not require healing or reparation for sin. The atonement is necessary for us so that we can be repaired and healed from the lifestyle of sin we have lived. It is not for God’s sake it is for ours.
Jesus sacrifice on the cross was not to forgive our sin, it was to pay the ransom to release us from the curse of death and initiate the new covenant where God’s law is written on our hearts. That is why Jesus died and was risen. He is our assurance that God is able to raise us all from the dead and break the curse and power of death.
It’s absurd to think that when an unbeliever dies in sin and no longer exists, (because the penalty of sin is death), that God would raise that sinner from the dead just so he could punish him again for eternity with no purpose or intent of correction or reconciliation. Sinners have already paid what the bible says the wages or punishment is for sin when they die. For God to raise them from the dead and make them suffer eternal torment for no purpose would make him unjust and vengeful.
However, it is God’s will that all men be saved and reconciled to him. So he will raise from the dead those who do not experience the life of ages (eternal life, knowing God) in the present age, to correct them and purify them in the Lake of Fire. They will not receive the same rewards as the saints of God, the bride of Christ, but they will be reconciled to God.
So back to the original question, what is salvation. Salvation is accepting the new covenant that Jesus initiated by his death and resurrection. Baptism is the symbolic act of identifying with the death of Christ, by crucifying our own sin nature and being raised to life (born again) in Christ. I am not saved from the wrath of God, I am saved from the power of sin over my life. I can experience the life of God in the here and now because I walk according to the covenant God has written on my heart. It is no longer I that live, but the Spirit of Christ that lives within me.
Part of salvation is sanctification and purification. This is the process by which God conforms us to the image of his son, the perfect prototype of a spirit led man of God. Every Christian that is truly born of God is somewhere in this process of sanctification. Does it mean we never sin? Of course not. But when we do sin, the grace of God leads us to godly sorrow which in turn leads us to repentance and forgiveness. (No additional blood needed). That is why Paul said to work out our salvation. Salvation is not a one time event. It’s a process that begins by accepting the covenant that Jesus initiated by dying on the cross for the atonement of the sins of the world. Atonement allows the process of sanctification to begin so that our soul can be repaired, healed and set free from the power of sin, which is death.
I am saved form the power and curse of sin over my life.
That is what salvation is to me.
What Salvation is.
Salvation is not escape form eternal damnation. Salvation is freedom from the power of sin.
In the old testament there is no concept of hell as a place of eternal torment. When mankind fell into sin God declared that the punishment (wages) of sin is death. God never said the wages of sin was eternal suffering and torment.
There are two kinds of death. Spiritual death which is separation from fellowship with God and physical death, which is simply ceasing to exist. We do not have immortal souls that exist without a body.
No where in the OT did God ever say the punishment for sin is eternal damnation. It simply says it’s death. Death is a process. Any doctor or scientist will tell you that once we have matured from a physical child to a mature physical adult our bodies are in a constant state of decay until we eventually die. This is the nature of the fallen world we live in. Because of the sin nature our bodies are in a gradual state of decay. Death is constantly working in our physical bodies.
The Old Testament talks about God chastening those he loves to purify them. Fire is representative of God’s corrective punishment that is used to purify those he loves. Just as a decent natural parent has unconditional love for his or her Child, God has unconditional love for every person ever born.
We all suffer the consequences of our sin, both spiritually and physically in the here and now. Spiritually we must all die to ourselves and surrender to the will of God to be freed from the power of sin, or else we will live apart form God in state of spiritual death. In our own strength and ability we are not capable of doing this.
Physically we will all endure death and cease to exist. We do not have immortal souls. Every person who has ever existed on the earth and died physically is dead and gone and currently ceases to exist in any state. There are no humans in heaven yet, save for one, who is the first fruit of the resurrection. None of us (including Ray Kurzweil no matter how hard he tries) have the ability to escape physical death.
Because God loved the world he sent his Son so that we could have the life of the ages. (“eternal” is a poor translation of the word aionios). What is the life of the ages (or what most Christians call eternal life)? Eternal life is not simply the continuation of life in the ages to come. The life of the ages is simply to know God and have fellowship with him. Those who don’t know God cannot have life. Because their sin separates them from God, they only have death.
We who know God have life and we have life more abundantly. It’s not a promise of life in the ages to come, it’s the realization of life (fellowship with God) in the here and now. When the bible says the unbeliever shall perish, it’s not talking about a future state. Those who don’t know God are perishing (dying) in the here and now. They shall perish (cease to exist) in their sin.
If we truly know God, then we will be grieved by sin. If we are grieved by our sin, we will have Godly sorrow which the bible says leads us to repentance. Repentance is turning away from sin. When we turn away from our sin, God forgives us and we can remain in fellowship with him.
However due to the fallen nature of the world we are born into, we are all conditioned to live selfishly by our sin nature. We are not capable of repenting and turning from our sin in our own strength or ability.
God sent Jesus the messiah to be our example and show us what a man completely surrendered to God looks like. Because the wages of sin is death, all of mankind is held captive by the power of death.
God did not need Jesus to die on the cross to forgive our sin. God continually forgave sin in the OT. It’s a common misunderstanding that blood is required for the forgiveness of sin. This misunderstanding is based on a poor understanding of Hebrews 9:22. The word translated as forgiveness in that verse is “Aphesis” and it really means release or deliverance. As in the deliverance of the Israelites from Egypt. The story of the Exodus is a foreshadow of our release from the power of sin, so that we can have life. In the OT God commanded the Israelites to choose life by choosing the terms of his covenant after he released them from Egypt. If they committed to live according to God’s ways he would give them abundant life. The Blood of the exodus lamb on the doorposts was not for forgiveness of sin. The blood was for the release of the Israelites form Egypt and to initiate a covenant. The release from Egypt represents our release from our former lives of Sin. The blood of Jesus was not required so that God could forgive our sin, it was required to initiate the new covenant, where God’s laws are written on our heart.
When laws are written on stone tablets we do not have the ability in our own strength and will to follow them. When God writes his law on our heart by his grace, we surrender to Christ as Lord and let him live through us. We are able to live according to God’s way so that we may have life and life more abundantly. Jesus blood was not for forgiveness it was for atonement. Atonement is the reparation ( making amends for a wrong) of our sin. The wrong of our sin is that we are under the curse of death and cannot experience the life God has for us. The atonement is what allows us to regain fellowship with God.
Christians make sin a bigger issue to God than it really is. It is nothing for God to forgive sin. It’s an annoyance to him, as it is a serious determent to our ability to experience life. Sin is only a big deal to God because of what it does to us, not what it does to him. We cannot hurt God by our sin, we only hurt ourselves. Because he loves us and wants the best for us, sin grieves God, but it cannot hurt him or change him. God does not require healing or reparation for sin. The atonement is necessary for us so that we can be repaired and healed from the lifestyle of sin we have lived. It is not for God’s sake it is for ours.
Jesus sacrifice on the cross was not to forgive our sin, it was to pay the ransom to release us from the curse of death and initiate the new covenant where God’s law is written on our hearts. That is why Jesus died and was risen. He is our assurance that God is able to raise us all from the dead and break the curse and power of death.
It’s absurd to think that when an unbeliever dies in sin and no longer exists, (because the penalty of sin is death), that God would raise that sinner from the dead just so he could punish him again for eternity with no purpose or intent of correction or reconciliation. Sinners have already paid what the bible says the wages or punishment is for sin when they die. For God to raise them from the dead and make them suffer eternal torment for no purpose would make him unjust and vengeful.
However, it is God’s will that all men be saved and reconciled to him. So he will raise from the dead those who do not experience the life of ages (eternal life, knowing God) in the present age, to correct them and purify them in the Lake of Fire. They will not receive the same rewards as the saints of God, the bride of Christ, but they will be reconciled to God.
So back to the original question, what is salvation. Salvation is accepting the new covenant that Jesus initiated by his death and resurrection. Baptism is the symbolic act of identifying with the death of Christ, by crucifying our own sin nature and being raised to life (born again) in Christ. I am not saved from the wrath of God, I am saved from the power of sin over my life. I can experience the life of God in the here and now because I walk according to the covenant God has written on my heart. It is no longer I that live, but the Spirit of Christ that lives within me.
Part of salvation is sanctification and purification. This is the process by which God conforms us to the image of his son, the perfect prototype of a spirit led man of God. Every Christian that is truly born of God is somewhere in this process of sanctification. Does it mean we never sin? Of course not. But when we do sin, the grace of God leads us to godly sorrow which in turn leads us to repentance and forgiveness. (No additional blood needed). That is why Paul said to work out our salvation. Salvation is not a one time event. It’s a process that begins by accepting the covenant that Jesus initiated by dying on the cross for the atonement of the sins of the world. Atonement allows the process of sanctification to begin so that our soul can be repaired, healed and set free from the power of sin, which is death.
I am saved form the power and curse of sin over my life.
That is what salvation is to me.