My critics to the "Believe in Science!" and Coronavac

Mr.Anderson

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While I was in pharmacy school we have been taught about two disasters in recent medicine story. First was the talidomide disaster and then the Tuskegee Experiment.

First I'll write some stuff and then connect them all later, right? So don't become confused.

The "science is always right" hysteria -

The common populace think it is a folly to be distrutful of vaccines, specially the new coronavac, and they keep repeating the motto "believe in science!" or "but it is backed up by science!" or similar.

Well, it might have been a valid point until the early 2000's where the science in general was still young, specially considering the exponential growth of new discoveries. This same exponential rate of new inventions gave birth to the somewhat famous "publish or perish" mentality that plagues the academic world nowadays. It was already a problem when I started college back in 2009, it is a worse problem by now.

Publish or Perish, Publication Bias, Replication Crisis, Negative Results and so many others are just some of the current problems that the scientific community faces right now. It has come to a point that even if a paper is published we can't be sure that it is true or not after all. Today's science has become a business and not a sincere try to understand nature.

The Tuskegee and Guatemala Experiments -

The Tuskegee University, somewhere in Alabama, realized an experiment that ran from 1932 to 1972 using the local black community. First they innoculated local black people with sifilis without their consent and then simply let the disease go untreated to see how it would develop. Meanwhile, the people envolved with the tuskegee experiment did the same in Guatemala, with the local government approval.

They lied to the locals, saying that they were receiving free health care when they were actually being used as lab rats.

The Talidomide Crisis -

Talidomide was an antiemetic drug that was widely used around the 60's. It came in two forms, the L-Talidomide and the D-Talidomide. Both were synthetised at the same time, and it was a pain in the ass to separate them. So they just put them two togheter in the pill and sold it. While one of the forms of the talidomide was deemed safe, the other one had no effect besides being teratogenic. Lots of babies were born with birth defects and this disaster led to the clinical experiments that we use today. But it took a real long time until the link between the drug and the birth defects was made.

What I mean by telling you all of this -

The point here is: we've seen the government experimenting with people before, more than once. We can't really trust scientific papers anymore, and they are rushing the coronavac and we can't be sure of the future damage they will bring. What makes me more worried is that there were at least three drugs that were controversial about their effectiveness (Ivermectine, Hydroxicloroquine and Nitazoxamide) but at least here in my city worked damm well fine. Any treatment besides Remdensivir and the Vaccine are bashed by scientific papers while the later are pushed and rushed to disregarding what history has taught us. It is almost like we are part of a worldwide tuskegee experiment.

And regarding the coronavac itself: a pregnant woman can't use the rubella vaccine because it might cause miscarriage. I had a cousin who had a miscarriage because she took a shot and didn't knew she was pregnant. Also it is well known that the dengue fever models we have right now might cause even worse problems later on, and the scientists still didn't figured how to solve them.

In a sense, the guys who say "trust the science" actually are missing important lessons that history and science itself has taught us.

And as final worlds: if any of you or people you know still believe this is nuts, what would you think if you lived in the 40's and someone told you that the USA was working a bomb that could level a whole city in a matter of seconds? And how did they hid project Manhattan for so long? Experiment Tuskegee dragged on for 40 years dammit.
 






Karlysymon

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Often times, when the media says "trust the science", they mean you should trust the science that benefits/enriches Big Pharma and the ruling establishment.

When these doctors came out to talk about hydroxychloroquine as a treatment for coronavirus, they were called quacks.
1608149624544.png
Businesses such as airlines are going to demand proof of vaccination just so you can use their service. If i showed up with a pill bottle of HCQ or a prescription for Remdesivir, why isn't that good enough inorder to access the service? I guess the "science" only supports what is delivered through a hypodermic needle.

Edit:
 






Last edited:

Mr.Anderson

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Business such as airlines are going to demand proof of vaccination just so you can use their service. If i showed up with a pill bottle of HCQ or a prescription for Remdesivir, why isn't that good enough inorder to access the service? I guess the "science" only supports what is delivered through a hypodermic needle.
There are some places around the world like some parts of Africa and some parts of Brazil that you're obligated to take some vaccines and some drugs as preventive measures. Stuff like yellow fever and malaria.

Also at least here in brazil we have a vaccination card to keep track of the vaccines, and new applications are stored at federal computers network and stuff. You just have to show them your ID or the vaccination card and you're done like when you want to travel to the amazon basin or something.

What I mean is that asking for a vaccine before traveling is nothing new, but why on earth this time they're doing stuff like QR Codes and such things when there is already a system that is good enough? I'm not telling the vaccine is a vector for microchip or it is changing our DNA and stuff, but this smells like a rudimentary tracking system that kinda aligns with the idea that they're testing this rubbish using us as lab rats
 






Karlysymon

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There are some places around the world like some parts of Africa and some parts of Brazil that you're obligated to take some vaccines and some drugs as preventive measures. Stuff like yellow fever and malaria.

Also at least here in brazil we have a vaccination card to keep track of the vaccines, and new applications are stored at federal computers network and stuff. You just have to show them your ID or the vaccination card and you're done like when you want to travel to the amazon basin or something.

What I mean is that asking for a vaccine before traveling is nothing new, but why on earth this time they're doing stuff like QR Codes and such things when there is already a system that is good enough? I'm not telling the vaccine is a vector for microchip or it is changing our DNA and stuff, but this smells like a rudimentary tracking system that kinda aligns with the idea that they're testing this rubbish using us as lab rats
True, vaccination for travel isn't really new but this time, things like going to a restaurant or concert will require it. The plans were already in place, there were just waiting for the right crisis to roll it out.

The CEO of CLEAR explains
 






Maes17

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I believe in science. But a vax this early in a pandemic or scamdemic to some here.

No


The thing is vaccines have unwanted side effects. Given the unknown nature of covid. I am not willing to accept it personally
 






manama

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I am completely pro-vax due to obvious reasons. The reason I am not taking and do not want my close family and friends to take the COVID vaccine is because i believe in science and since there is not enough "scientific data" on the vaccine and its long terms and short terms effect. The lack of scientific information is exactly why I am hesitant.
 






Karlysymon

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I am completely pro-vax due to obvious reasons. The reason I am not taking and do not want my close family and friends to take the COVID vaccine is because i believe in science and since there is not enough "scientific data" on the vaccine and its long terms and short terms effect. The lack of scientific information is exactly why I am hesitant.
Shocker!!! If even you aren't on board with this...it is saying ALOT!! :)

While I was in pharmacy school we have been taught about two disasters in recent medicine story. First was the talidomide disaster and then the Tuskegee Experiment.

First I'll write some stuff and then connect them all later, right? So don't become confused.

The "science is always right" hysteria -

The common populace think it is a folly to be distrutful of vaccines, specially the new coronavac, and they keep repeating the motto "believe in science!" or "but it is backed up by science!" or similar.

Well, it might have been a valid point until the early 2000's where the science in general was still young, specially considering the exponential growth of new discoveries. This same exponential rate of new inventions gave birth to the somewhat famous "publish or perish" mentality that plagues the academic world nowadays. It was already a problem when I started college back in 2009, it is a worse problem by now.

Publish or Perish, Publication Bias, Replication Crisis, Negative Results and so many others are just some of the current problems that the scientific community faces right now. It has come to a point that even if a paper is published we can't be sure that it is true or not after all. Today's science has become a business and not a sincere try to understand nature.

The Tuskegee and Guatemala Experiments -

The Tuskegee University, somewhere in Alabama, realized an experiment that ran from 1932 to 1972 using the local black community. First they innoculated local black people with sifilis without their consent and then simply let the disease go untreated to see how it would develop. Meanwhile, the people envolved with the tuskegee experiment did the same in Guatemala, with the local government approval.

They lied to the locals, saying that they were receiving free health care when they were actually being used as lab rats.

The Talidomide Crisis -

Talidomide was an antiemetic drug that was widely used around the 60's. It came in two forms, the L-Talidomide and the D-Talidomide. Both were synthetised at the same time, and it was a pain in the ass to separate them. So they just put them two togheter in the pill and sold it. While one of the forms of the talidomide was deemed safe, the other one had no effect besides being teratogenic. Lots of babies were born with birth defects and this disaster led to the clinical experiments that we use today. But it took a real long time until the link between the drug and the birth defects was made.

What I mean by telling you all of this -

The point here is: we've seen the government experimenting with people before, more than once. We can't really trust scientific papers anymore, and they are rushing the coronavac and we can't be sure of the future damage they will bring. What makes me more worried is that there were at least three drugs that were controversial about their effectiveness (Ivermectine, Hydroxicloroquine and Nitazoxamide) but at least here in my city worked damm well fine. Any treatment besides Remdensivir and the Vaccine are bashed by scientific papers while the later are pushed and rushed to disregarding what history has taught us. It is almost like we are part of a worldwide tuskegee experiment.

And regarding the coronavac itself: a pregnant woman can't use the rubella vaccine because it might cause miscarriage. I had a cousin who had a miscarriage because she took a shot and didn't knew she was pregnant. Also it is well known that the dengue fever models we have right now might cause even worse problems later on, and the scientists still didn't figured how to solve them.

In a sense, the guys who say "trust the science" actually are missing important lessons that history and science itself has taught us.

And as final worlds: if any of you or people you know still believe this is nuts, what would you think if you lived in the 40's and someone told you that the USA was working a bomb that could level a whole city in a matter of seconds? And how did they hid project Manhattan for so long? Experiment Tuskegee dragged on for 40 years dammit.
Someone else originally posted this in another thread. Thought i'd drop it here
1608227948227.png
 






Maes17

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I am completely pro-vax due to obvious reasons. The reason I am not taking and do not want my close family and friends to take the COVID vaccine is because i believe in science and since there is not enough "scientific data" on the vaccine and its long terms and short terms effect. The lack of scientific information is exactly why I am hesitant.
Yes ma’am. My thoughts too
 






recure

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Science is the Gopel of the Neognostics which insists that everyone worship at the altar of the Apollonian god of knowledge or else suffer eternal condemnation. Its prophets are numerous and their library is extensive; its two witnesses are Freud and Jung, and their doctrines are preached at the merchant temples called universities. Its cult of personality requires blind faith in its creed, which promises that knowledge, not God, will bring salvation to mankind.
 






free2018

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Science is the Gopel of the Neognostics which insists that everyone worship at the altar of the Apollonian god of knowledge or else suffer eternal condemnation. Its prophets are numerous and their library is extensive; its two witnesses are Freud and Jung, and their doctrines are preached at the merchant temples called universities. Its cult of personality requires blind faith in its creed, which promises that knowledge, not God, will bring salvation to mankind.
Truth.
 






Maes17

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Science is the Gopel of the Neognostics which insists that everyone worship at the altar of the Apollonian god of knowledge or else suffer eternal condemnation. Its prophets are numerous and their library is extensive; its two witnesses are Freud and Jung, and their doctrines are preached at the merchant temples called universities. Its cult of personality requires blind faith in its creed, which promises that knowledge, not God, will bring salvation to mankind.
Don’t you think advancement in scientific studies are God’s miracles?

I don’t think any one looks at scientist as prophets.
Freud and Jung were a huge part sure, but there is a lot more to science than their findings.

Idk. I’ve always went by common sense.
Kinda contradictory to say it’s blind faith when followers of God follow blindly as well.

I believe in God, but I also believe in the progress of human civilization through science or STEM.
 






recure

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Unfortunately, much of the analogy was lost on you. You called something that is correlative a contradiction. But I've said all I wanted to on the topic, and to those who understand, what I said will suffice.
 






Maes17

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Unfortunately, much of the analogy was lost on you. You called something that is correlative a contradiction. But I've said all I wanted to on the topic, and to those who understand, what I said will suffice.
I’m simplifying ;)
 






Mr.Anderson

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@manama, @Maes17 Exactly! The problem aren't vaccines per se, it's just this vaccine in particular!

Also, regarding this:
I don’t think any one looks at scientist as prophets.
Yeah, people are looking foward scientits as prophets! There is a cult-like mentality regarding the vaccine as the salvation (yeah, i've people using this term) of humanity right now.

This has been going for quite a long time. I remember this episode of south park, Oh my science! - YouTube (mild gore warning).

Back when I used to tag along with godless atheists and progressive illuminati agenda followers this was pretty much how they used to behave.
 






Maes17

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@manama, @Maes17 Exactly! The problem aren't vaccines per se, it's just this vaccine in particular!

Also, regarding this:


Yeah, people are looking foward scientits as prophets! There is a cult-like mentality regarding the vaccine as the salvation (yeah, i've people using this term) of humanity right now.

This has been going for quite a long time. I remember this episode of south park, Oh my science! - YouTube (mild gore warning).

Back when I used to tag along with godless atheists and progressive illuminati agenda followers this was pretty much how they used to behave.
I respect your approach.
You guys should know by now I don’t bash on anyone’s religion/beliefs.

But I’m all for science and progress. Guess because I don’t see scientist as prophets. This seems more
“lol” or “wtf” in my eyes.

Physics, research are vastly improving our lives.
I’ve always been a skeptic in paranormal. I mean I believe in God and free will. I also believe in doing good. Kindness is often misunderstood for weakness or naive. But I just don’t carry ill will towards anyone unless they have an intention to hurt me. Then my war side comes out lol.

Anywho back to subject. I just believe science and logical explanations are there but people hold on to some type of paranormal belief to give them purpose and a not so fearful approach of death
 






Tidal

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...I just believe science and logical explanations are there but people hold on to some type of paranormal belief to give them purpose and a not so fearful approach of death

Jesus is not a 'paranormal belief', he's JESUS..:)
In modern terms he was a solid flesh-and-blood alien visitor-
"I am not of this world" (John 8:23)

And used a "superscience" as his credentials-
"Though you do not believe me, believe the miracles" (John 10:38 )

And said he'd clue us in on things-
"i'll tell you things hidden since the creation of the world" (Matt 13:35)

Hey Spock will you listen to an alien visitor?

"Affirmative, it would be illogical not to listen, I'm all ears"
 






Maes17

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Jesus is not a 'paranormal belief', he's JESUS..:)
In modern terms he was a solid flesh-and-blood alien visitor-
"I am not of this world" (John 8:23)

And used a "superscience" as his credentials-
"Though you do not believe me, believe the miracles" (John 10:38 )

And said he'd clue us in on things-
"i'll tell you things hidden since the creation of the world" (Matt 13:35)

Hey Spock will you listen to an alien visitor?

"Affirmative, it would be illogical not to listen, I'm all ears"
I don’t hold Jesus in a paranormal way but from my observation religion and paranormal experiences intertwine
 






Tidal

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I don’t hold Jesus in a paranormal way but from my observation religion and paranormal experiences intertwine

Yes, and we could speculate that our "reality" is just a dream, and that Jesus was a 'Master of the Art of Dream Manipulation', able to influence the dream to perform what looked like miracles to people.
Furthermore he said WE could do it too if we knew how. ("move mountains")
He also said we should pray a lot, so we could speculate that prayer is "thought pressure" that can nudge the dream in the direction we want it to go..:)

"All that we see or seem, is but a dream within a dream" - Edgar Allen Poe
"You can be in my dream if i can be in your dream" -Bob Dylan
"We are such stuff as dreams are made on" -The Tempest
"Strawberry Fields, nothing is real" - The Beatles
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one'' -Einstein
"What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes" (Bible: James 4:14)
"Have you ever had a dream that you were so sure was real? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?" -Morpheus in The Matrix
"The quantum atoms or elementary particles themselves are not real; they form a world of potentialities or possibilities rather than one of things or facts"
– Prof. Werner Heisenberg (Nobel Prize winner in Physics)

 






Maes17

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Yes, and we could speculate that our "reality" is just a dream, and that Jesus was a 'Master of the Art of Dream Manipulation', able to influence the dream to perform what looked like miracles to people.
Furthermore he said WE could do it too if we knew how. ("move mountains")
He also said we should pray a lot, so we could speculate that prayer is "thought pressure" that can nudge the dream in the direction we want it to go..:)

"All that we see or seem, is but a dream within a dream" - Edgar Allen Poe
"You can be in my dream if i can be in your dream" -Bob Dylan
"We are such stuff as dreams are made on" -The Tempest
"Strawberry Fields, nothing is real" - The Beatles
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one'' -Einstein
"What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes" (Bible: James 4:14)
"Have you ever had a dream that you were so sure was real? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?" -Morpheus in The Matrix
"The quantum atoms or elementary particles themselves are not real; they form a world of potentialities or possibilities rather than one of things or facts"
– Prof. Werner Heisenberg (Nobel Prize winner in Physics)

I think faith in the bible may have been written a little too sensationalized at the time. Just my take
 






Tidal

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I think faith in the bible may have been written a little too sensationalized at the time. Just my take

The Bible is a fascinating list of human encounters with offworld beings (angels, demons etc) spanning thousands of years of earth history; for example in the first chapter of Ezekiel he describes in detail his own UFO close encounter; at one point falling to his knees in a near-faint, and one of the occupants says "Stand up, I want to talk to you"..

 






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