Milennials and Socialism

[justjess]

Your an RN right? They get paid pretty damn well. Do you know how many came before you to fight for the fair wages you enjoy?

 

[Lurker]

Are you being stupid on purpose?

You made me think of this

 

[Lurker]

Your an RN right? They get paid pretty damn well. Do you know how many came before you to fight for the fair wages you enjoy?

And doctors used to work for chickens. I think you are misplacing the credit for high wages. The RNs of the past didn't really do anything. The for-profit death care system did it all.

 

[rainerann]

Lurker has a point. The pharmaceutical companies are why healthcare has the opportunity to provide wages towards what I would consider a specialized charity. This is why they were able to pursue greater incentives in the form of higher wages. Healthcare is a specialized charity that cannot provide this otherwise, but this is irrelevant to how much money I make when you consider how I choose to spend my money. Say I did make more money than the average person and I use that money to support an economy where a store like this co-op can grow, individuals who sell items on Etsy make money, and a creative blogger does as well. How much money I make or don't make is not relevant to my participating towards economic justice. I distribute my paycheck towards creating a fair and just economy to the best of my ability. Many, many people are doing this and making a purchase is the same as making an economic decision that has an effect on other people. Therefore, economic justice is not to be confused with socialism.

However, the fact that healthcare workers, in general, make more money is also the direct result of pursuing higher incentives to do a thankless yucky job. I don't know how many people like suctioning mucus from someone only to be stored in a canister that is placed behind their bed because the amount of mucus has to be measured and recorded at certain times of the day. Someone literally has to look at a canister filled with the mucus of varying color and record how much is in this container.

We have to measure urine because this relates to how the kidney is functioning and there is literally pee and poop all throughout the day that you have to see, measure, and describe. We look at poop and send poop to a lab to check whether there is blood in the stool. I have had people telling me all the time that they don't think they could do my job. I don't think this is true. Most people will at some point because they will care for a relative. They just haven't had the same experience I have had that makes it appear like it is easy to them at the time.

So I really don't see how this would be relevant outside of suggesting that increasing wages in healthcare was the result of socialism, which it isn't. Higher wages have been pursued in order to create a greater incentive for doing a really crappy job that has a high risk of injury and infection. Creating a greater incentive using capital as the incentive to do a job like this is the promotion of capitalism. I am still paid a wage. My employer doesn't provide housing or have an onsite grocery store that provides food so that I am able to work for free in exchange for something like this. The incentive is created with capital.

Working in a hospital requires some incentive, but providing this incentive is created by pharmaceutical companies and other things. Without this incentive, people will not want to do this sort of job, which is another reason socialism won't work. Without wages, there are thousands of people who would readily not go to work. The trash person probably doesn't want to spend their day collecting trash if they don't have to do this. The people who work at the sewage plant probably don't want to have to work there if they don't have to do this, and this is a primary reason that these jobs pay the wages they do, because you have to create an incentive to do certain jobs that society requires. Capital is required for this. Therefore, you would never be able to replace this with a different system and think that you could create the same quality of life that we presently have where wages create the incentive to do yucky jobs that no one wants to do unless they have to do them.

Capitalism is just the reality that capital is required to create economic growth, what people choose to do with this capital is up to them. This is where the government assists to help create a fair economy that capitalism cannot do by itself because it is not an ideology, and the consumer is responsible for this as well.

 

[mecca]

Without wages, there are thousands of people who would readily not go to work. The trash person probably doesn't want to spend their day collecting trash if they don't have to do this. The people who work at the sewage plant probably don't want to have to work there if they don't have to do this, and this is a primary reason that these jobs pay the wages they do, because you have to create an incentive to do certain jobs that society requires. Capital is required for this.

Money is not the only incentive for jobs. Communism is based on mutual aid so the jobs you do help yourself and everyone else. Processing waste and cleaning up trash are necessary for the functioning of society, so a major incentive to get them done is that it is literally necessary. If you want a clean city and you don't want to destroy the planet or pollute your environment then trash will have to be picked up and collected. People literally volunteer to clean up trash for free because of these reasons. A big incentive is your own well being along with the well being of everyone else. Also there are some people who just like their jobs even though those jobs are seen as lesser under capitalism, some people like being trash collectors. Wastewater management requires a college degree so people might go into that field because they care about clean water.

 

[enderpotato00]

Money is not the only incentive for jobs. Communism is based on mutual aid so the jobs you do help yourself and everyone else. Processing waste and cleaning up trash are necessary for the functioning of society, so a major incentive to get them done is that it is literally necessary. If you want a clean city and you don't want to destroy the planet or pollute your environment then trash will have to be picked up and collected. People literally volunteer to clean up trash for free because of these reasons. A big incentive is your own well being along with the well being of everyone else. Also there are some people who just like their jobs even though those jobs are seen as lesser under capitalism, some people like being trash collectors. Wastewater management requires a college degree so people might go into that field because they care about clean water.

Do you not understand communism cannot exist in the real world. We have never lived in communes, the most primitive we lived in were called pastorals or hunter-gatherers. We were way more nomadic before the agricultural revolution

 

[mecca]

Do you not understand communism cannot exist in the real world. We have never lived in communes, the most primitive we lived in were called pastorals or hunter-gatherers. We were way more nomadic before the agricultural revolution

We already talked about this. Early human societies and different cultures and groups over time have lived in ways similar to what communism is. People owned land in common and they did not have to work for someone. They did not have to sell their labor to a capitalist landowner, all the work they did directly benefited themselves and their community. They did not have to answer to an oppressive state government either. And that's what communism is... it's when the people themselves control their own labor and means of production.

This basic form of communism has existed since the beginning of humankind so for you to say that it is impossible is very ignorant. Communism today has these same basic principles but it just wants to expand on and improve upon it. Because now we have technology and automation and many other things that can and should make life easier... but technology is mostly being used to hurt others and benefit the few wealthy elite people. It should not be that way.

By the way, I love how you didn't actually address anything I said.

 

[enderpotato00]

We already talked about this. Early human societies and different cultures and groups over time have lived in ways similar to what communism is. People owned land in common and they did not have to work for someone. They did not have to sell their labor to a capitalist landowner, all the work they did directly benefited themselves and their community. They did not have to answer to an oppressive state government either.

Ever heard of monarchies? They were oppressive

 

[mecca]

Ever heard of monarchies? They were oppressive

I'm obviously not talking about a monarchy but nice reading comprehension...

 

[enderpotato00]

I'm obviously not talking about a monarchy but nice reading comprehension...

I’m saying because you just seem to think that only capitalism and the government is oppressive.

 

[enderpotato00]

I'm obviously not talking about a monarchy but nice reading comprehension...

Real communism is also oppressive and so is Shariah Law in the Middle East.

 

[mecca]

I’m saying because you just seem to think that only capitalism and the government is oppressive.

You don't know what I think... and monarchies are completely irrelevant to everything I said. If you want to actually read my post and reply to something I was actually talking about then do that.

 

[enderpotato00]

You don't know what I think... and monarchies are completely irrelevant to everything I said. If you want to actually read my post and reply to something I was actually talking about then do that.

How is it irrelevant? You said oppressive governments!

 

[justjess]

Lurker has a point. The pharmaceutical companies are why healthcare has the opportunity to provide wages towards what I would consider a specialized charity. This is why they were able to pursue greater incentives in the form of higher wages. Healthcare is a specialized charity that cannot provide this otherwise, but this is irrelevant to how much money I make when you consider how I choose to spend my money. Say I did make more money than the average person and I use that money to support an economy where a store like this co-op can grow, individuals who sell items on Etsy make money, and a creative blogger does as well. How much money I make or don't make is not relevant to my participating towards economic justice. I distribute my paycheck towards creating a fair and just economy to the best of my ability. Many, many people are doing this and making a purchase is the same as making an economic decision that has an effect on other people. Therefore, economic justice is not to be confused with socialism.

However, the fact that healthcare workers, in general, make more money is also the direct result of pursuing higher incentives to do a thankless yucky job. I don't know how many people like suctioning mucus from someone only to be stored in a canister that is placed behind their bed because the amount of mucus has to be measured and recorded at certain times of the day. Someone literally has to look at a canister filled with the mucus of varying color and record how much is in this container.

We have to measure urine because this relates to how the kidney is functioning and there is literally pee and poop all throughout the day that you have to see, measure, and describe. We look at poop and send poop to a lab to check whether there is blood in the stool. I have had people telling me all the time that they don't think they could do my job. I don't think this is true. Most people will at some point because they will care for a relative. They just haven't had the same experience I have had that makes it appear like it is easy to them at the time.

So I really don't see how this would be relevant outside of suggesting that increasing wages in healthcare was the result of socialism, which it isn't. Higher wages have been pursued in order to create a greater incentive for doing a really crappy job that has a high risk of injury and infection. Creating a greater incentive using capital as the incentive to do a job like this is the promotion of capitalism. I am still paid a wage. My employer doesn't provide housing or have an onsite grocery store that provides food so that I am able to work for free in exchange for something like this. The incentive is created with capital.

Working in a hospital requires some incentive, but providing this incentive is created by pharmaceutical companies and other things. Without this incentive, people will not want to do this sort of job, which is another reason socialism won't work. Without wages, there are thousands of people who would readily not go to work. The trash person probably doesn't want to spend their day collecting trash if they don't have to do this. The people who work at the sewage plant probably don't want to have to work there if they don't have to do this, and this is a primary reason that these jobs pay the wages they do, because you have to create an incentive to do certain jobs that society requires. Capital is required for this. Therefore, you would never be able to replace this with a different system and think that you could create the same quality of life that we presently have where wages create the incentive to do yucky jobs that no one wants to do unless they have to do them.

Capitalism is just the reality that capital is required to create economic growth, what people choose to do with this capital is up to them. This is where the government assists to help create a fair economy that capitalism cannot do by itself because it is not an ideology, and the consumer is responsible for this as well.

Look. There were a couple things i was trying to say that i dont even have the patience to expand on right now..

But we can start with this: it is a privilage to make enough money to be able to be picky about where you spend it.

Many people just cant, wherevers cheapest is the only option so i end up supporting walmart even though i hate them cuz otherwise i will have even less of the bare necessities my family needs. I cant afford the higher prices to buy food at a social justice coop. Most people cant.

Your trying to base a fair system on peoples good will but if charity had ever been enough to meet the need we never would have moved to government programs to begin with.

 

[mecca]

How is it irrelevant? You said oppressive governments!

I said people have lived in communal ways that did not necessitate government. I'm talking about people living in stateless societies without oppressive governments and then you bring up how oppressive monarchies are... I obviously know that monarchies are oppressive but they literally have nothing to do with this conversation.

 

[enderpotato00]

I said people have lived in communal ways that did not necessitate government. I'm talking about people living in stateless societies without oppressive governments and then you bring up how oppressive monarchies are... I obviously know that monarchies are oppressive but they literally have nothing to do with this conversation.

1. Show me an example.
2. We’ve had governments for a long ass time
3. We’ve never had stateless societies. Only 50,000 years ago we did. Before civilization.

 

[mecca]

Show me an example.

I'm not obligated to do research for you, I've already gone into detail on this subject and provided resources and books for you to read but you obviously have not looked at them. Figure it out yourself, study history and anthropology.

We’ve never had stateless societies.

Yes we have and we have a few now too.

Before civilization.

They are a civilization. Humans have always grouped together and formed communities and societies with complex social interactions, there is no "before civilization".

 

[enderpotato00]

I'm not obligated to do research for you, I've already gone into detail on this subject and provided resources and books for you to read but you obviously have not looked at them. Figure it out yourself, study history and anthropology.

Yes we have and we have a few now too.

They are a civilization. Humans have always grouped together and formed communities and societies with complex social interactions, there is no "before civilization".

No civilization was only possible after the agricultural revolution

 

[enderpotato00]

I'm not obligated to do research for you, I've already gone into detail on this subject and provided resources and books for you to read but you obviously have not looked at them. Figure it out yourself, study history and anthropology.

Yes we have and we have a few now too.

They are a civilization. Humans have always grouped together and formed communities and societies with complex social interactions, there is no "before civilization".

civilization
[siv-uh-luh-zey-shuh n]
noun
an advanced state of human society, in which a high level of culture, science, industry, and government has been reached.
those people or nations that have reached such a state.

Hunter-gatherers or nomads were not complex

 

[Aero]

Humans have always had complex minds. That's why the parallels to animals are so obvious, and transcendent. If you take a sharp rock, and tie it to a stick. You now have an axe. If you make more axes you now have a stockpile. You can then trade those axes, or you can go chop down little trees. What I'm saying is, you don't need rocket science to be advanced.

It doesn't take some mystery or alien visitors to figure out how to start a civilization. It's literally coded into our DNA. And I've thought about the whole Utopia thing a little bit. All I've really figured out is the things that make a Utopia impossible to achieve. First off, you cannot have a single monopoly. You can't have banks. So when you earn money in my Utopia it's yours. It's literally in your possession, but it's not called money per say.

A Utopia can't have special interest groups and government contracts. But there has to be some kind of leadership. A Utopia has to be protected with an Iron Fist. Or these ideals would be subverted in no time. I'm seeing a system that doesn't depend on the traditional idea of "employment". Most people in my Utopia will be independent contractors basically. That's the essential driving force of the new economy. People will have so many choices for work they won't know what to do.

Gone should be the days of specialized education. Everyone should just be that educated! Obviously everyone can't be made into a master of everything. But there's no reason why every person in America shouldn't be educated enough to stand their ground. Pretty soon we may have machines doing brain surgery. So everyone will probably be reduced to computer operators anyway.