"Mike Pence - US should do what Israel wants"

DesertRose

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Why do you believe it all comes down to religion?
Good point.
Colonization.
Human rights abuses.
Theft

Whether they like it or not there was peace for centuries on that land under Muslim rule this they can not erase from history.

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): ” If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

Hear from the Jews of Palestine , how do they lived in palestine before the zionisim occpuation
 
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Good point.
Colonization.
Human rights abuses.
Theft

Whether they like it or not there was peace for centuries on that land under Muslim rule this they can not erase from history.

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): ” If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

Hear from the Jews of Palestine , how do they lived in palestine before the zionisim occpuation
I commend the orthodox Jews in the video. It also reminds me of one our walks years ago for Palestine where some of them showed up. Overall, the turnout was huge, but I remember the organizers wanting the orthodox Jews in the front with the banner and seeing a smidgen of hesitation in their faces as I'm guessing they had no idea what to expect with the protesters that would line the route of the walk. I remember people patting their shoulders in reassurance with a “we've got your back” look and they acknowledged them with a quick nod. Humanity at its’ finest.

That said, you’re right, it’s ultimately about the colonization.
 

Serveto

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SNL is crap I don't watch that.
You might consider making an exception in this case. It's quite a commentary, by way of grotesque parody, on the American political scene and the very real controversy which attended Chuck Hagel's nomination.
As for Israel, most people on this board who bash her constantly augment their "criticism" with mentions of the Protocols, and everything that I have brought up in my previous post. And if you look globally, not just on this board, you will have the same anti-semitic patterns.
Actually, when I look globally, at least at the European far right, the Protocols seem somewhat passé -like last year's newspaper. They have been, in the conspiratorial mind, sort of replaced by the so called Coudenhove-Kalergi Plan, which is thought to be backed by George Soros and others.
The Protocols of Zion circulate freely in the Muslim world and they are taken as truth.
They seem to be a demonic -and I don't use the word frequently- document.
Then some watching the conflict over there wonder why Israel has to deal with Hamas terrorists who will never accept a 2 state solution. They are only interested in getting rid of the Jewish population--something that will never happen obviously. While Israelians are divided 50%/50% over whether they should share the land with the Palestinians. And a majority of secular Jews would favor a peace deal with them. How is that for a Jewish conspiracy.
Not bad. It could be presented at the next Oslo Accord meetings. A number of people would probably buy it.
 
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TempestOfTempo

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African American slavery.
Shhhhh, you are not supposed to mention the ongoing effects of the trans-Atlantic slave trade and subsequent African and Indigenous American holocaust....... And you must NEVER mention the prominent role Jewish peoples played in it, how much they have (and continue to) benefit form it nor their intentional predatory history in American communities of color. And ESPECIALLY never mention the stranglehold they have on media and how they INTENTIONALLY flood communities of color (and the youth in general) with specific, crafted messages designed to sew destruction......
 

TempestOfTempo

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It is always an attack on Jews. It's not like its limited to Israel... it's the Jews in the US, too, and really, all over the world, once the 'Protocols' are invoked. Its dishonest to pretend it's about only about the state of Israel.
Who here introduced the "protocols" to our discussion other than you?
 

TempestOfTempo

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Well, Tempest, you ask an interesting question. The OP appears to suppose a strategy of an ongoing colonial style relationship between the US and Israel in which it is envisioned they might create together an idyllic Zionist-ran future world order. This concept appears to be the essence of much of the talk on this forum as well as in the wider "conspiratorial" world.

In order to answer your question from a Biblical point of view, I must right away stress that I am not omniscient and, though I might have a settled Biblical opinion on certain issues, I may equally be wrong in some details. I will try to answer your question to the best of my ability even if the reply is a bit long...

One of the hardest forms of communication is to talk about a topic people already think they have figured out. Common descriptions may hide differences that may be assumed to be shared understandings etc.

The Bible doesn't talk about America directly, not being one of the nations involved in the 1st Century Middle Eastern world. That having been said, scripture often alludes to places and people through types and shadows e.g. Jesus is referred to in the OT in various ways - "The Branch", "Shiloh", "My Servant", "Son of Man", "The Angel of the Lord" etc etc. These reveal something of his nature. In the same way, nations are spoken of under names that define them, e.g. Esau, Ephraim etc. The danger in gaining a little understanding of this is that you may leap for a certainty on something that is a possibility.

So, assuming that past prophecies can be shown to have come to pass, you might reasonably expect that in the fullness of time, those prophecies identified to take place around the time of the end will come to pass in the same way. Understanding the language and symbolism in the decoding of the past ones provide good indications on how to read the unfulfilled ones.

Christians "read" prophecy and understand "The Kingdom", "Israel" and how to best understand prophecy differently. I can't hope to address these differences here other than to say that the perspective I take is that we live presently in an era (or "dispensation") called the "Church Age". This was not spoken of (except by allusion) in the OT. Rather it exists as a parenthesis in God's unfolding relationship with the World. Right now, anyone who believes the gospel and is born again can be "grafted in" to spiritual Israel and be saved. If you are familiar with algebra, the part of the sum that appears in the parenthesis e.g. (2x +1) is done first before the rest. Even from the perspective of the Gospels, the church is somewhat of a mystery, only finding its full explanation through Paul.

The time we are living in now will come to an end (in my view) with the Rapture of the Church. From my reading of scripture I think this event will coincide with several things:-

1: Zechariah 9:14 indicates that the Lord blows a trumpet in the context of a conflict involving Israel.


2: Isaiah 17 and Ezekiel 38 may both take place in a short time window soon after.


3: A great deception arrives. This is a source of much speculation but an educated guess suggests an alternative, persuasive narrative will emerge that will aim to displace our present "religious" understanding of things.


As the US has recently announced a pull-out of Syria, what happens next with respect to this prophecy is anyone's guess, but the stage appears to be set.

To America then, there are those who believe America is absent from the latter stages of history because it is destroyed by war. An identification of the US as "Mystery Babylon" would indicate this. Others see the faltering of the US in the face of an invasion of Israel as an indication that the Rapture may have taken place, changing the composition of the leadership in such a way as the much disliked "evangelical Christian" voice will disappear from the nation, leaving those in power the ones that will stand by and do nothing when an attack takes place. Another possibility would be that the nation identified as "Gog" in Ezekiel 38, frequently associated with Russia gains sufficient military dominance that the US decides that stepping in to a war in the Middle East may be unwinnable. Here, something like the hypersonic weapons in Russia's possession may act as a tipping point.

Just me thinking out loud, but that's where I see things headed, and why I put much of our current world order in the parentheses mentioned earlier. I share all this because I wouldn't want my worst enemy to go through what follows. I suspect most people will dismiss or ignore what I have said, but I would be a wretched human being if I didn't at least try to explain the critical prophetic point world events are currently balanced at.
Thanks for that breakdown of your perspective!
 

Damien50

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Shhhhh, you are not supposed to mention the ongoing effects of the trans-Atlantic slave trade and subsequent African and Indigenous American holocaust....... And you must NEVER mention the prominent role Jewish peoples played in it, how much they have (and continue to) benefit form it nor their intentional predatory history in American communities of color. And ESPECIALLY never mention the stranglehold they have on media and how they INTENTIONALLY flood communities of color (and the youth in general) with specific, crafted messages designed to sew destruction......
The dichotomy is insane yet no one in this thread addressed this point but people start getting called out for anti Semitic sentiments when the Americans are just pissed about their tax dollars going to an illegal state that creates suffering and inhumane conditions but no one is going to touch on the genocide of colored people.

Where the Christians supporting the African Americans that had a false version of Christianity forced on them? Bowing down to Israel. Less than 10 years of the holocaust> 200+ years of slavery and genocide of indigenous and colored people. It's laughable. It's deplorable. This is America. Hail Israel, enslave the blacks again, let everyone else rot.

Where's the 40 acres and a mule? In Israel melted into a golden calf lol.
 
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The dichotomy is insane yet no one in this thread addressed this point but people start getting called out for anti Semitic sentiments when the Americans are just pissed about their tax dollars going to an illegal state that creates suffering and inhumane conditions but no one is going to touch on the genocide of colored people.

Where the Christians supporting the African Americans that had a false version of Christianity forced on them? Bowing down to Israel. Less than 10 years of the holocaust> 200+ years of slavery and genocide of indigenous and colored people. It's laughable. It's deplorable. This is America. Hail Israel, enslave the blacks again, let everyone else rot.

Where's the 40 acres and a mule? In Israel melted into a golden calf lol.
What about the Arab (therefore Muslim) role in the Slave trade? It predates that of the Europeans and let’s not forget that the Bible was the biggest justification for slavery.

I don’t think people talk about slavery or native genocide nearly enough and it’s unfortunate that people don’t know about say the colonial mass murder done under the rule of Leopold the II but that doesn’t make the Holocaust a fake either.

I’ve stated that America should not aid Israel ( or any country) militarily but anyhope for a change on this is going to come from the Left.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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What about the Arab (therefore Muslim) role in the Slave trade? It predates that of the Europeans and let’s not forget that the Bible was the biggest justification for slavery.

I don’t think people talk about slavery or native genocide nearly enough and it’s unfortunate that people don’t know about say the colonial mass murder done under the rule of Leopold the II but that doesn’t make the Holocaust a fake either.

I’ve stated that America should not aid Israel ( or any country) militarily but anyhope for a change on this is going to come from the Left.
As in...

Islamic Slavery:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0TKiKX1srq1FVmt75x01B8d3viVCAekN
 

Damien50

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What about the Arab (therefore Muslim) role in the Slave trade? It predates that of the Europeans and let’s not forget that the Bible was the biggest justification for slavery.

I don’t think people talk about slavery or native genocide nearly enough and it’s unfortunate that people don’t know about say the colonial mass murder done under the rule of Leopold the II but that doesn’t make the Holocaust a fake either.

I’ve stated that America should not aid Israel ( or any country) militarily but anyhope for a change on this is going to come from the Left.
We can go there too lol. It wasn't unique to North America but I'm not even saying the holocaust is fake. What in getting at is the dichotomy of how the Jews are and were treated from the 40's and comparing it to the systematic destruction of the African American from the ship to the plantation and beyond.
 
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We can go there too lol. It wasn't unique to North America but I'm not even saying the holocaust is fake. What in getting at is the dichotomy of how the Jews are and were treated from the 40's and comparing it to the systematic destruction of the African American from the ship to the plantation and beyond.
While the world was in denial it was black American newspapers sounding the alarm on the atrocities being committed by the Germans against Jews and others.

Yeah man it’s not fair and it’s not right but America is built off of white supremacy ( really the world as we know it is ) Jews being mostly white in appearance at least made it easier for them to operate and they have strong family structures that value things like education.

We can talk about the political assaninations of the late 60s, the infiltration and destruction of the Panthers, the rise of gangs and crack and mass incarceration if you want, all of which is real and deliberate.
 

DesertRose

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Just for the record: Slavery Pre-dates Islam.
The Quran allowed for the gradual ending by attaching freedom to good deeds and freeing slaves was ordered.

"Islam is a very merciful religion on slaves. Islam came and fought many bloody battles against the Arabs who believed in slavery and who brutally enslaved many people. Islam also sees the importance of liberating slaves, and had helped to gradually liberate slaves until all of them were ultimately freed. Islam allows for any slave to request from his Muslim owner his freedom, and orders the Muslim owner to grant that slave his freedom and to pay him money on top of it to help him get a good start in his new free life."
https://www.answering-christianity.com/equality.htm

Please visit: Slavery in the Bible. Total humiliation and despising to slaves in both the Old Testament and the New Testament in the Bible.
 

Damien50

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While the world was in denial it was black American newspapers sounding the alarm on the atrocities being committed by the Germans against Jews and others.

Yeah man it’s not fair and it’s not right but America is built off of white supremacy ( really the world as we know it is ) Jews being mostly white in appearance at least made it easier for them to operate and they have strong family structures that value things like education.

We can talk about the political assaninations of the late 60s, the infiltration and destruction of the Panthers, the rise of gangs and crack and mass incarceration if you want, all of which is real and deliberate.

It deserves a thread it's own thread honestly
 
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Just for the record: Slavery Pre-dates Islam.
The Quran allowed for the gradual ending by attaching freedom to good deeds and freeing slaves was ordered.

"Islam is a very merciful religion on slaves. Islam came and fought many bloody battles against the Arabs who believed in slavery and who brutally enslaved many people. Islam also sees the importance of liberating slaves, and had helped to gradually liberate slaves until all of them were ultimately freed. Islam allows for any slave to request from his Muslim owner his freedom, and orders the Muslim owner to grant that slave his freedom and to pay him money on top of it to help him get a good start in his new free life."
https://www.answering-christianity.com/equality.htm

Please visit: Slavery in the Bible. Total humiliation and despising to slaves in both the Old Testament and the New Testament in the Bible.
There is no moral way to own other people and for believing that they still helped to enslave up to 22 million people and can’t be whitewashed.

You are correct however that when it comes to slavery the Bible is really bad.

Let’s also never forget that slavery still exists

https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/05/19/slavery-now-migrant-labor-in-the-persian-gulf-and-saudi-arabia/

https://www.ozy.com/fast-forward/rising-in-the-middle-east-forced-labor-from-africa/82554
 

DesertRose

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There is no moral way to own other people and for believing that they still helped to enslave up to 22 million people and can’t be whitewashed.
You are correct however that when it comes to slavery the Bible is really bad.
Slavery is wrong and against our path.
However, if you want we can hold that discussion on the religious thread.
Muslims speak for Islam and the Quran not what some people do.

I commend the orthodox Jews in the video. It also reminds me of one our walks years ago for Palestine where some of them showed up. Overall, the turnout was huge, but I remember the organizers wanting the orthodox Jews in the front with the banner and seeing a smidgen of hesitation in their faces as I'm guessing they had no idea what to expect with the protesters that would line the route of the walk. I remember people patting their shoulders in reassurance with a “we've got your back” look and they acknowledged them with a quick nod. Humanity at its’ finest.

That said, you’re right, it’s ultimately about the colonization.
Yup that is the meat and potatoes of this discussion.
Why anyone would support immoral policies while claiming to be religious is beyond me.
Righteousness is not a robe to take on and off.
Human rights should not be ignored.
 
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TempestOfTempo

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We can go there too lol. It wasn't unique to North America but I'm not even saying the holocaust is fake. What in getting at is the dichotomy of how the Jews are and were treated from the 40's and comparing it to the systematic destruction of the African American from the ship to the plantation and beyond.
You notice how posters here just REFUSE to address certain issues while they derail dialog on others? I brought up something specific and relevent to this thread.... whats the Distracto-borg's response? Bu-b-b-bu-b-but......... AYRABZ!
 
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