Men are socialized to be rapists

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It's a made up culture. It's not a normal thing men engage in.
What I find more distressing and constantly overlooked everywhere from Hollywood on down is the sexual abuse of children. Little boys abused. Little girls abused. Children abused.
 





rex

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I remember the outrage this article from mens fitness caused bc it promoted r*pe culture. That Nick Savoy dude is said to be a "relationship and dating coach" but he build his name on violating women. More like a guide to coercion
First off I don't know anything behind that guy. Could well be scum. Technically, anyone on the loose could be one of those rare but existing serial rapists that pounce from dark alleys and get away with it.

But try to look at his ad without hauling in associations you've absorbed from the culture that socializes you.
Remove the sexual context for a second.
What you have left is a persuasion class.
Try to see that by itself as incriminating.
By extension, every salesperson that overcomes your initial disinterest is a thief.
But this mentality is reserved for men's sexuality.
E.G. you can try to change a kid's mind, stopping something stupid or just asking for a favor, without it being child abuse.
But when it comes to seduction the prevailing expectation is that at the slightest hint of disinterest from the other, you erase yourself and fade into the background like that Homer Simpson Backing Off Into The Bushes gif.
Evidence? Anyone that goes "erm, not really" is instantly vilified. Thanks for providing Exhibit A, ishigo.
 





rex

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Their desire for rationed women shows their complete acceptance of r*pe. Since you know, sexual slavery is r*pe.
Slavery insofar as every soldier, public school teacher, and ambulance driver is a slave. Considering the mentality than enables becoming incel in the first place, I guarantee that having any of those imaginary rationed women saying "no" would end the encounter, with a success rate above average. (Not that I condone this incel fantasy)

"society, as a whole, conditions men to feel entitled to women's bodies. "

Where do you get this?
You think watching girls throw themselves at James Bond or some rapper conditions men to harass, somehow? Buzzwords all. It's part of the whole cycle of titillation and scorn most men are subjected to.
 





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First off I don't know anything behind that guy. Could well be scum. Technically, anyone on the loose could be one of those rare but existing serial rapists that pounce from dark alleys and get away with it.

But try to look at his ad without hauling in associations you've absorbed from the culture that socializes you.
Remove the sexual context for a second.
What you have left is a persuasion class.
Try to see that by itself as incriminating.
By extension, every salesperson that overcomes your initial disinterest is a thief.
I'll bite. A salesman that doesn't leave you alone if you express disinterest might not be a thief. But he is an asshole because he's so intent on selling you a product and taking your money he doesn't care if you want it. He's acting in an exploitive way. Advertising is the same.

But this mentality is reserved for men's sexuality.
Men's sexuality isn't about beating down a girl's will unless she consents to let you have sex with her. If you think that's how men need to work to get laid, you need much better male role models in your life.

And if you manage to get a woman to agree after a dozen no's... Well, not only does it make you sleazy, it also means she's almost likely not going to enjoy it.

E.G. you can try to change a kid's mind, stopping something stupid or just asking for a favor, without it being child abuse.
Adult women have fully formed minds. Children do not. If a child is doing something dangerous, you have to stop them. But if you're manipulating kids to do things for you, yeah... I'd call that child abuse.

If you keep trying to wear down a woman's will, so you can have sex with you. you're an asshole. You're sleazy. I wouldn't go as far as calling you a rapist... But lordy, son, you need to have more respect for the women in your life. And more self-respect for yourself.

But when it comes to seduction the prevailing expectation is that at the slightest hint of disinterest from the other, you erase yourself and fade into the background like that Homer Simpson Backing Off Into The Bushes gif.
I mean, why not? If someone's not into you, find someone who is?

Evidence? Anyone that goes "erm, not really" is instantly vilified. Thanks for providing Exhibit A, ishigo.
Have you ever took a minute to think that if someone thinks you're acting creepy or sleazy... You might actually be acting creepy or sleazy?

Slavery insofar as every soldier, public school teacher, and ambulance driver is a slave.
And shouldn't we work towards liberation? As an anarchist, I don't want any form of slavery.

Considering the mentality than enables becoming incel in the first place, I guarantee that having any of those imaginary rationed women saying "no" would end the encounter, with a success rate above average. (Not that I condone this incel fantasy)
I'm very glad you agree that rationing women is a bad thing.

Where do you get this?
You think watching girls throw themselves at James Bond or some rapper conditions men to harass, somehow?
James Bond is fictional. In at least one James Bond movie, he raped a woman. He forced himself on her. She eventually "came around" because it's fiction and if she didn't it would kind of make you root for the bad guy...

Some women throw themselves at famous people, too. Most don't. But let me ask you this.... Jane sleep with John, a famous musician... Do you get to sleep with Jane, too?

No, you don't. And if you think because Jane sleeps with John, you get a have a chance at her too... Well, you feel entitled to her body.


Buzzwords all. It's part of the whole cycle of titillation and scorn most men are subjected to.
...Holy shit, that victim complex. Maybe if you got rid of it... You'd actually be successful with women?
 





rex

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Victim complex? I didn't invent the zeitgeist, I'm pointing things out to you, not dictating some righteous victim reaction.
if you think because Jane sleeps with John, you get a have a chance at her too... Well, you feel entitled to her body.
OK you're just describing a possible potential thought process that turns envy into "entitlement". But that's all you give. I don't know what to do with it. Am I to understand you think neutral phenomena tend to make men entitled and there's nothing we can/should do about it but we have to counteract the entitlement through scolding or...?...
 





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I don’t know if this is helpful or not to the conversation, but I thought it was an interesting video when I watched it earlier this year.
 





rex

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I'll bite. A salesman that doesn't leave you alone if you express disinterest might not be a thief. But he is an asshole because he's so intent on selling you a product and taking your money he doesn't care if you want it. He's acting in an exploitive way. Advertising is the same.
If I believed that, I'd be hollering "abuse" at your face for trying to change my mind.
Are you a sleazy exploitative asshole for disrespecting my opinion?
No, this is called having a conversation.
But if we were negotiating our nonreciprocal sexual attraction... sleaze! Why?

People don't have perfect information. They can't make perfect decisions. They can use help. Sometimes they don't know what they don't know, and you need to open their eyes.

Children are not the point. I could offer my friends a job, a great opportunity they never considered before, and they'd be right to be skeptical.

Or what about premature prepositions: requests you don't expect to be met but propose anyway to suggest things to come. Why the hell should they be off the table. (Because supposedly getting that expected 'no' entails you have to GTFO in general.) People aren't robots.

To counterpoint what amounts to dating advice... you're pushing a tepid, reluctant form of engagement that screams insecurity.

I'm actually a fan of anarchism but you come off to me as resentful of anything that "threatens" "independence". I picture your utopia as everyone living in their little bubbles, scared to death of anyone intruding upon independence. This is actually a drive repurposed to dismantle society, so everyone lives in fear of reaching out to help and correct one another. I didn't expect to become armchair psychologist but I think you failed to be taken seriously over and over again and became very sensitive to anyone trying to poo-poo your judgement, then you started hyper-reacting "lemme make my own decision dammit", then universalized it. Or maybe you found unsought influences to be overwhelmingly negative. Me, I don't find a repeated request offensive.

And yes it is a more masculine characteristic to put yourself on the line and intervene when something is going wrong, or even just not as well as it could.

Mmm I just thought of that scene in They Live where the guys wrestle over the sunglasses for several minutes.
 





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Victim complex? I didn't invent the zeitgeist, I'm pointing things out to you, not dictating some righteous victim reaction.
If you actually believe the things you're saying, you absolutely either have a victim complex.

OK you're just describing a possible potential thought process that turns envy into "entitlement". But that's all you give. I don't know what to do with it. Am I to understand you think neutral phenomena tend to make men entitled and there's nothing we can/should do about it but we have to counteract the entitlement through scolding or...?...
You make it sound like you're owed a sexual relationship and that you should be able to get one by acting however you want. Maybe that isn't what you mean or are implying... But that's what it sounds like, man.

If I believed that, I'd be hollering "abuse" at your face for trying to change my mind.
If you believed women should be forced to have sex with you I wouldn't even have a conversation with you. You'd believe it's alright oppress people which means.

Are you a sleazy exploitative asshole for disrespecting my opinion?
No, this is called having a conversation.
But if we were negotiating our nonreciprocal sexual attraction... sleaze! Why?
Why? Since you're not respecting someone's personal space. If you're not respecting someone's personal space when it comes to sex, you're sleazy. It doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman, gay or straight. If someone says "no", you step away.

I won't pretend that these rules are set in stone. I won't pretend that sometimes, some people deliberately play hard to get and you need persue them. There are absolutely expections to the rule...

But if the only way you can get laid is to keep asking someone to sleep with you until they eventually cave in and agree to it... Well, you might want to rethink how you play the dating game if you don't want people judging you.

People don't have perfect information. They can't make perfect decisions. They can use help. Sometimes they don't know what they don't know, and you need to open their eyes.
...like you? Who actually believes either the incel philosophy or pick-up artistry?

That's why I'm telling you to rethink the way you think, dude. And I'm not even being sarcastic when I say that. You won't live a happy life if you keep thinking the way you are. You might have spikes of "happiness" but you won't be truly happy.

Listen, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and apologize if came off harsh. I just don't think that thinking the way you're thinking is going to help you. It's only going to make you miserable.

Children are not the point. I could offer my friends a job, a great opportunity they never considered before, and they'd be right to be skeptical.

Or what about premature prepositions: requests you don't expect to be met but propose anyway to suggest things to come. Why the hell should they be off the table. (Because supposedly getting that expected 'no' entails you have to GTFO in general.) People aren't robots.
For the record, someone saying no doesn't mean you have to leave. It just means that maybe instead of trying to keep sleeping with them, treating them as possible sexual conquest... You treat them like a human being?

To counterpoint what amounts to dating advice... you're pushing a tepid, reluctant form of engagement that screams insecurity.
Alternatively, I'm old enough and been around people to realize one of the most unattractive traits is desperation and there's no better way to sound desperate than to keep orbiting a potential lover when they aren't into you. That doesn't only hurt your chances with that person in question... But anyone else observing.

I'm actually a fan of anarchism but you come off to me as resentful of anything that "threatens" "independence".
I do reject anything that threatens my individual autonomy or anyone else's.

I picture your utopia as everyone living in their little bubbles, scared to death of anyone intruding upon independence. This is actually a drive repurposed to dismantle society, so everyone lives in fear of reaching out to help and correct one another.
You're picturing a world I don't want. This thread isn't a place to discuss it and if I did it would take this thread way off topic... But that's not wanted I want.


I didn't expect to become armchair psychologist but I think you failed to be taken seriously over and over again and became very sensitive to anyone trying to poo-poo your judgement, then you started hyper-reacting "lemme make my own decision dammit", then universalized it. Or maybe you found unsought influences to be overwhelmingly negative. Me, I don't find a repeated request offensive.
Dude, again... You're free to do what you want. But let me ask you. How's it working out for you? Are you fighting off women with sticks? Do you have a new one every night? Someone. I don't think that's the case. And if it is, power to you.

I'm trying to get you to realize that this worldview isn't helpful for you. I'm trying to get you to realize that it isn't going to help you get laid. (Not that it can't get you laid.) And it's totally not going to get you a healthy relationship.




And yes it is a more masculine characteristic to put yourself on the line and intervene when something is going wrong, or even just not as well as it could.
This is kind of a true comment, although I think it's something everyone should do. Attributing it to getting laid seems a little weird though...
 





rex

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I do have a dream of a world where making advances isn't treated like you're whipping your dick out in public. (edit: I appreciate your permission to "chase skirts" but there's a bigger world out there to contend with.) And I don't see the net advantage of promoting your "but once mayst thou come onto a woman, and ne'er shalt thou comest a second time as the first, lest thou be a creep and asshole, and also desperate" attitude. It leaves the more impressionable behind while the less affected psychopaths do what they need to do and get their shit done when it suits them.
You make it sound like you're owed a sexual relationship and that you should be able to get one by acting however you want. Maybe that isn't what you mean or are implying... But that's what it sounds like, man.
No. You simply define "entitlement" in this quote here. I don't know what you have to say about entitlement, other than explain what it means.
Why? Since you're not respecting someone's personal space.
Nobody's said anything about violating personal space.
It just means that maybe instead of trying to keep sleeping with them, treating them as possible sexual conquest... You treat them like a human being?
False dichotomy alert. Humans are sexual. Sexualization =/= dehumanization. You may as well argue that trying to get someone to play chess with you is dehumanizing them.

this worldview isn't helpful for you...………….
You won't live a happy life if you keep thinking the way you are.
That is really heavy. I don't think I gather what you ascertain this "worldview" of mine to be.
 





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I do have a dream of a world where making advances isn't treated like you're whipping your dick out in public. (edit: I appreciate your permission to "chase skirts" but there's a bigger world out there to contend with.) And I don't see the net advantage of promoting your "but once mayst thou come onto a woman, and ne'er shalt thou comest a second time as the first, lest thou be a creep and asshole, and also desperate" attitude. It leaves the more impressionable behind while the less affected psychopaths do what they need to do and get their shit done when it suits them.
It isn't limited to men with women. I've know creepy women, too.

And the benefit of walking away if you strike out is threefold; 1.) you don't waste your time, 2.) you have enough respect for them to not continue to bother them with unwanted advances, and 3.) you won't come off as creepy when to other potential lovers.

If you're a a bar, hounding a girl who's not into you, and don't take the hint any other girl that sees this is going to have zero intrest in you.

No. You simply define "entitlement" in this quote here. I don't know what you have to say about entitlement, other than explain what it means.
Entitlement. The belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment. If you think you deserve sex, you're entitled. You won't die if you don't have sex.

Nobody's said anything about violating personal space.
If you keep presting someone you're in their personal space...

False dichotomy alert. Humans are sexual. Sexualization =/= dehumanization. You may as well argue that trying to get someone to play chess with you is dehumanizing them.


Humans are (usually) sexual. But doesn't mean we all want to sleep with each other. And if you don't respect the fact that a potential sexual partner doesn't want to sleep with you, at the very least you're disrespecting them. Let's use you little chest analogy.

Person 1: Play chess with me.
Person 2: I really don't want to.
Person 1: C'mon, play chess with me.
Person 2: Dude, I said I don't want to.
Person 1: I'll buy you a beer.
Person 2: Cool, but I don't want to play chess.
Person 1: How about if I buy pizza, too?

One of two things will happen is likely to happen. Person 2 will eventually cave and play chess, although won't give it their all, because they don't really care about it or Person 2 will be hostile to Person 1. Are either productive if Person 1 wants to play a good game of chess?




That is really heavy. I don't think I gather what you ascertain this "worldview" of mine to be.
...I can make assumptions when you're arguing from what seems to somewhere between an incel and a pick-up artst.
 





rex

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Holy shit I didn't know those groups of people represent worldviews. You seem really good at pulling together a coherent worldview from mere collections of personal history, observation, and strategy. Can't view the facts in isolation. I actually wonder if this is a natural process you are drawn to repeat, or a developed technique.

Thank you for defining entitlement. Now since you think it's a good idea to bring it up for some reason, maybe you can point out stuff like who is entitled, how you see that, why entitlement develops, answer "so what", "ok now what".
One of two things will happen is likely to happen. Person 2 will eventually cave and play chess, although won't give it their all, because they don't really care about it or Person 2 will be hostile to Person 1. Are either productive if Person 1 wants to play a good game of chess?
I believe the best rebuttal to this is Green Eggs And Ham.
Holy shit, is Dr Seuss socializing men to be rapists?
 





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So... years ago I was out at a bar, guy offered to buy me a drink I politely declined, said “I got it thanks” he loses his mind at me screaming and yelling do I think “I’m too good to take a drink from him”

Another night out at a bar visiting my friend who worked there. Guy offers to buy me a drink. I say I’m married (I am) guy starts screaming and yelling “what the fuck are you doing here if you aren’t available”

Another night out at a bar guy approaches me tells me I “look miserable” (that’s what you call negging or something right) I tell him “I’m actually great fuck off” he spends the next hour trying to approach me getting intermittently nicer and then ruder the whole night. I leave the bar. I’m still not interested and none of his pick up tactics have accomplished anything other than making me angry and uncomfortable and ruining my night.

I don’t go to bars anymore.

If a woman rejects you out the gate sexually, maybe try being her FRIEND and she’ll come around naturally. I’m sure these tactics work on some women, I’m just as sure that most women view them as despicable and have no respect for the men who use them and no matter what you do with those women that will never change.
 





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It isn't limited to men with women. I've know creepy women, too.

And the benefit of walking away if you strike out is threefold; 1.) you don't waste your time, 2.) you have enough respect for them to not continue to bother them with unwanted advances, and 3.) you won't come off as creepy when to other potential lovers.

If you're a a bar, hounding a girl who's not into you, and don't take the hint any other girl that sees this is going to have zero intrest in you.
A major part of the problem is that young women are not taught to be cautious enough. They are generally expected to be “pleasant” and “polite” which can be misconstrued as actual interest and can even lead a woman straight into a dangerous situation ...of course we recognize the danger and would never tell children to always be “polite” to strangers or say ridiculous things like “not ALL strangers”

Women, this is important: f*ck politeness. You don’t have to be pleasant toward anyone who sets off the creep alarm. Don’t be afraid to be vulgar to help make your message as clear and concise as possible. Have an arsenal of phrases ready:

“I’m not interested in talking to you at all, and I’m just waiting for my husband (or waiting for a friend, or I am a lesbian etc). Goodbye.”

If he persists:
“F*ck off, creep. Leave me alone now.”

“Go f*ck yourself, douchebag. You’re creeping me out”

If being outright and rude is still not effective, unfortunately you might have to just leave or otherwise safely remove yourself from the situation.
 





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I agree with you 100%

But just to let you know... telling them your married or a lesbian doesn’t generally help at all. The men who will care about those kinds of things aren’t the ones you have to be worried about to begin with. I’ve used both... married being true. No one cares, and the lesbian one just gets them more “excited” to put it nicely.
 





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I agree with you 100%

But just to let you know... telling them your married or a lesbian doesn’t generally help at all. The men who will care about those kinds of things aren’t the ones you have to be worried about to begin with. I’ve used both... married being true. No one cares, and the lesbian one just gets them more “excited” to put it nicely.
Exactly, which is why it’s much better to say you’re waiting for your husband than to just say you’re married. It’s also the reason you shouldn’t be afraid to use stronger language immediately. Basically you should say exactly what’s on your mind without holding back lol
 





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Exactly, which is why it’s much better to say you’re waiting for your husband than to just say you’re married. It’s also the reason you shouldn’t be afraid to use stronger language immediately. Basically you should say exactly what’s on your mind without holding back lol
In my experience stronger language just results in verbal harassment. See above examples. But it’s still better then leaving the impression you are “leading them on” by being a polite human being
 





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In my experience stronger language just results in verbal harassment. See above examples. But it’s still better then leaving the impression you are “leading them on” by being a polite human being
Yeah you gotta be on your toes because they usually don’t expect it coming from a female. It makes them angry to know they are being shut down immediately, and if they can’t handle it like an adult they tend to act out like a child and blame the other person for feeling uncomfortable. A real man would immediately recognize and own up to the fact that it was their own behavior that put the other person in an uncomfortable situation in the first place, even if it was completely unintentional
 





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It’s actually sorta ironically funny... I’m sitting here contemplating this and realizing and about to post “and this is why jess has always dated the biggest baddest boys on the block - protection”

Which is true. However for the first time in my life I just connected that thought to the bigger picture.

When men who struggle to pick up women treat them LIKE THIS they are actually pushing them further into the arms of the “competition” they misguidingly believe they are emulating/copying.

Being an alpha or a beta (I hate these terms) isn’t solely about how they act and the actual traits that make them one or the other are being overlooked for an exaggerated oversimplification. Women go for alphas because they make them feel safe and secure. When you try to imitate what you think an alpha does with “fake assertiveness” without the natural self confidence they possess behind it instead of making a woman feel safe and secure you make her feel scared and nervous.

This has the opposite effect so these men are truly just ensuring their continued failures with women.
 





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Personally i think most cat-callers are either drunk, nonchalant or inexperienced.

I remember myself when new term in school started, there was many new students and one girl in particular was very pretty.
I was shy and inexperienced but i thought to myself: Either i do something or i will always be a quitter.

So i said something like: Hey baby or Dayum you're fine! (I don't remember) and she replied: "Ew gross!"
I took it to heart and never spoke to her like that anymore and learned my lesson that cat-calling don't work..

If i would blame myself and ask myself who i imitated then it probably be:
Beavis and Butt-Head i loved watching them and thought they were cool.

But anyway i never dated that girl but i would always buy her flowers on her birthday even though she dated my previous class-mate The Italian Black belt Stallion of the school =))

After few years they broke up and he dated my primary school friend (i gave her few good words about him before they started) and i found out from her that apparently his previous girl always complained on why he couldn't be nice like me. ^_^

So my point is, sometimes we just in a good mood or in a silly mode, we see a beautiful girl and just don't know the right way to give her a compliment...

Sometimes we see a girl dressed in revealing clothes and just want to do a wolf whistle and just don't care of the reaction.
A song comes to mind: Express yourself...

Sometimes we just drunk and stupid... Being in those types of places and cat-calling actually worked positively few times, some actually took it as a compliment and we had good times and memories...

But that's me! Others are different...
Some go negative, some don't care of the reaction and some actually get smiles and other positive reactions..

Most of the girls i was friends with, when they complained about the cat-calling, the number one problem for them was
is that most of the cat-calling was from old men builders.. They didn't mind if they were young and alright looking.

So again, for every person it's different. It's what's in the heart..
We should strive to understand each other instead of hyper judging..

This thought policing mentality is gonna cost us our freedom some day once they go deeper, exploit it and turn it into something else.
I'm afraid the world is gonna turn into something like when you see someone with a beautiful smile, it might make your day, you want to give something back, you near a shop, you buy a flower, give it to a girl who made you smile, blush, walk away, she misunderstands you or she crazy and screams: R*pe!
And a innocent person is in trouble...

Anyway what im trying to say is: We are all different and so are our intentions..

And i'm sorry if you get harassed by cat-calls when you walk down the street, my advice is: Just ignore them and avoid eye contact.
Same goes when your a cute couple walking down the street.