Members 'brainwashed' by mega-church into donating thousands

saki

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#1
...this is a new church to me... but sadly, it sounds like an age-old phenomenon.... Can someone better educated than me on C3 Australia elaborate on the claims in this report?

https://www.9news.com.au/national/a...uEeOHxU3QAgAXc-R_FX9_0njoM5ULWJJEU8_g4t0l7RN8

Members 'brainwashed' by mega-church into donating thousands

By Sacha Passi 8:16pm Sep 30, 2019


He's the flashy church leader who takes money for miracles and is living a million-dollar lifestyle thanks to the tax-free donations from his thousands of believers.

Phil Pringle rose from humble garbage collector to leader of C3 Church – one of the biggest churches you've probably never heard of, and the focus of a two-part exclusive investigation by A Current Affair.

Its target is God's hipsters - a following of young faithful hooked on Instagram.

Over three decades Phil Pringle has built an empire including around 400 churches world-wide, and the church claims more than 100,000 members.

And for a man of God, Phil Pringle is incredibly rich. He drives a luxury car and owns a palatial clifftop mansion overlooking the beach at Sydney's Mona Vale. It comes complete with an infinity pool and cost him $3.4 million seven years ago - it's now valued well above $4 million.

Phil Pringle is the leader of C3 Church. (A Current Affair)

He also enjoys skippering yachts in exotic destinations around the world. His message seems to be less about repenting your sins and more about building your finances.

"Go make millions and give it to the House of God ... Amen!" Phil Pringle preaches at one conference, recorded and published online. In another clip, the leader of C3 Americas Jurgen Matthesius is also captured giving the hard sell to parishioners.

"God is brilliant with ledgers. God is the most perfect accountant, he knows everything you give and he makes sure it comes back to you with interest," he said.

Another deputy and leader of C3, John Pearce, is even more blunt about how God's blessings work.

Phil Pringle with his wife, Chris. (A Current Affair)

"Some of you are going to walk into heaven and God is going to go 'massive mansion over there for you' like what's that for? He'll go, well you were part of C3 powerhouse," he said.

In a special investigation, former members reveal the extent of the pressure put on followers, starting with tithing – a term that requires you to donate 10 per cent of your pre-tax salary.

"The first 10 per cent of whatever they earn. So if you're on $100,000 that's $10,000 that you're giving per annum to them," former C3 Church member, Aaron said.

When asked by A Current Affair Reporter Dan Nolan about tithing, Phil Pringle said tithing is optional, but on C3's website, it's made clear that even if you are in "significant debt", your regular tithe is still expected.

C3 claims more than 100,000 members. (A Current Affair)

The preachers claim this is okay because if you give money to C3, God will bless you with more money in return.

"They would describe giving as like a seed," Aaron said.

"You not only give once, you've got to continue to give, which is like your watering of the seed and then it will grow and then eventually you'll get this big blessing and this good stuff will happen to you."

It's claimed by giving, followers can be blessed with 'miracles' - curing the sick and exorcising demons.

Phil Pringle lives a million-dollar lifestyle. (A Current Affair)

"In one offering, $50,000, $100,000, a million dollars in some cases, just at the drop of a hat like that," Aaron said.

The most recent information lodged on Australia's charity register reveals the total revenue declared by all C3 churches in Australia is $40 million annually - less than half of Hillsong Church's $103 million, but growing fast.

Most of that revenue was from donations and everything is tax-free. C3 Church Sydney Limited, a company that Phil Pringle is a director of has total assets of $46 million.

That includes 11 church locations, including the sprawling C3 Headquarters at Oxford Falls.

Reporter Dan Nolan questions Phil Pringle. (A Current Affair)

Kerri Ferguson was a member of Christian City Church before it became C3.

"They call it a free will gift or free will giving, that simply isn't true. You're brainwashed into giving this kind of money," she said.

She says even when she was raising five kids on her own, the pressure to tithe remained.

"There were nights in our house when my children did not have food. And I never got any assistance whatsoever from anybody," she said.

Phil Pringle skippers yachts around the world. (A Current Affair)

Chris Rosebrough is from Fighting For The Faith, a podcast dedicated to exposing prosperity preachers like Phil Pringle.

"They're playing on people's greed, playing on people's needs and basically exploiting them," he said.

The Christian pastor has analysed C3 Church and Pringle for years.

"Stories like these they are intended to bring large amounts of money, and convince somebody that God wants them to empty their savings account," he said.

Ex-church member Kerri Ferguson said people were "brainwashed" into donating money. (A Current Affair)

At the recent C3 Australia Conference at the Gold Coast, a speech about giving was streamed online before being removed the next day.

In the clip, worshipers are directed to the portable eftpos machines before stories of healing take centre stage. One man, who happens to be the son of another C3 Pastor John Pearce, claims Phil Pringle cured him of his epilepsy last year. Another man seeks a cure for his gut health.

And then there are 'miracle offerings', encouraging believers to donate a one-off hefty amount for a special need in their life - often to have children.

"They would portray it in this way of do this and you get this back, kind of thing. So whether that's new job, new house, new car, is it kids for some people?" Aaron said.

The total revenue declared by C3 Church in Australia was $40 million annually. (A Current Affair)

Chris Rosebrough, a devoted Christian, says the church's teachings don't align with the bible.

"The gifts of God are not for sale. Gifts of God are received as gifts, they are given freely by God, they cannot be purchased," he said.

Phil Pringle denied preaching about miracle offerings when approach by A Current Affair, saying, "well we certainly haven't preached that."

But audio recordings, since deleted offline, capture Phil Pringle explaining how "miracle offerings" work.

"It's a miracle because as you bring an offering to the Lord and stretch yourself into a zone you've never been before you're going to find yourself, God stretching his resources to you," he said.

"I believe there's a person here today who can give $1 million. In fact I believe there's two people who could do that."

Statement from C3 Church:

C3 Church has robust governance policies in place regarding remuneration of Pastors which extends to the remuneration of Ps Phil Pringle. All remuneration is set by an independent board of Directors and the quantum is benchmarked to organisations of a comparable size in the Education sector.

C3 Church complies with the disclosure guidelines articulated by the Australian Charities and Not-for-profits Commission (ACNC).

Ps Pringle confirms he fully complies with all his taxation obligations.
 





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#2
He sells God, and people buy it. He's just better at selling than your average vicar/,pastor/priest etc.

It's obviously a very profitable business model. No stock to sell.....just beliefs..
 





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#3
This is disgusting. The pastor of community bible church passed around an offering plate (they don’t do offering plates- there are boxes in the back or a digital app) two weeks ago and told his congregation ‘we never do this, you know tithes and offerings are between you and God. Today, if you feel led to, put something in the bucket- and of you NEED money, take it.’ At one service a single mom, with a special needs child whose husband had just left her, had friends putting money in her lap- then her whole section was asking how they can help. He said they don’t know how much went ‘in and out’ but there was $75k left over that’s going straight to the church members that need help with medical bills, or to pay an electric bill. I love that pastor. They also ‘tithe’ from the church back into the city directly. They bought school uniforms for the students at the low income schools in their city.

Pastors like that C3 dude, the ones at Hillsong, Joel Osteen... preach ‘prosperity’ and not the gospel. I don’t understand why there aren’t whistleblowers coming forward to spill the tea.
 





saki

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#4
This is disgusting. The pastor of community bible church passed around an offering plate (they don’t do offering plates- there are boxes in the back or a digital app) two weeks ago and told his congregation ‘we never do this, you know tithes and offerings are between you and God. Today, if you feel led to, put something in the bucket- and of you NEED money, take it.’ At one service a single mom, with a special needs child whose husband had just left her, had friends putting money in her lap- then her whole section was asking how they can help. He said they don’t know how much went ‘in and out’ but there was $75k left over that’s going straight to the church members that need help with medical bills, or to pay an electric bill. I love that pastor. They also ‘tithe’ from the church back into the city directly. They bought school uniforms for the students at the low income schools in their city.

Pastors like that C3 dude, the ones at Hillsong, Joel Osteen... preach ‘prosperity’ and not the gospel. I don’t understand why there aren’t whistleblowers coming forward to spill the tea.
....now that is what I would call spirit-led tithing.... and the way it ought to be.....
...I remember at one church I was visiting, they took up a 'special collection' to retire the debt on the new addition and gymnasium.... "we as a church cannot move forward while burdened with this debt", or somesuch....
....I was floored when the pastor began opening the tithing envelopes and reading out loud to the congregation the name(s) of the person/family and the amount given.... with great emphasis and enthusiasm when he opened up a very large check... acknowledging 'the Williams family' (for example) for their extra generous contribution of $5,000, etc....
...it was revolting and disgusting...
...I did not go back...
 





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#5
....now that is what I would call spirit-led tithing.... and the way it ought to be.....
...I remember at one church I was visiting, they took up a 'special collection' to retire the debt on the new addition and gymnasium.... "we as a church cannot move forward while burdened with this debt", or somesuch....
....I was floored when the pastor began opening the tithing envelopes and reading out loud to the congregation the name(s) of the person/family and the amount given.... with great emphasis and enthusiasm when he opened up a very large check... acknowledging 'the Williams family' (for example) for their extra generous contribution of $5,000, etc....
...it was revolting and disgusting...
...I did not go back...
That’s revolting. He was literally doing what the Pharisees did (making a show of their tithe and the amount), the type of behavior Jesus condemned.
 





saki

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#7
....then there's this news from The Vatican..... maybe the Catholics are starting to throw their money over to C3? ha!

https://nypost.com/2019/10/22/vatic...medium=site buttons&utm_campaign=site buttons

Vatican at risk of default due to plummeting donations: exposé
By Lia Eustachewich

October 22, 2019 | 9:33am | Updated


The Vatican is in need of salvation.

Donations to the Catholic Church have plummeted in the wake of its pervasive clergy sex abuse scandal — so much so that it’s at risk of default by 2023, according to a new exposé.

In 2006, the church raked in 101 million euros ($112 million) in contributions. By 2016, that number was 70 million euros ($77.9 million), and now could be less than 60 million euros, the Telegraph reported.

The startling bottom line is according to Italian investigative journalist Gianluigi Nuzzi, whose new book, “Universal Judgment,” came out Monday.

He blames the church’s financial mess on a dip in donations, as well as poor money management and bad real estate deals.

“If the pontificate of Francis fails, it won’t be because of the attacks of conservative Catholics or the crisis in vocations or because of the declining number of faithful,” Nuzzi writes in the book. “It will be because of the financial collapse that is coming ever closer.”

The Administration of the Patrimony of the Apostolic See, a department of the Vatican which oversees real estate and investments, lost the equivalent of nearly $49 million last year — prompting officials to set up an emergency task force, according to Nuzzi.

He said the real estate portfolio was worth an estimated 2.7 billion euros ($3 billion) and was poorly managed. Some 800 properties were empty, while 15 percent of the 3,200 rented properties were being leased for free or for below-market prices.

“The deficit is recurring and structural and has reached worrying levels,” a Vatican official wrote in a memo obtained by Nuzzi. “We risk a default if no urgent steps are taken.”

Only a fifth of total donations go to the poor and the rest is held in bank accounts or used toward the debts of the Vatican’s governing body, the Curia, Nuzzi said.

Sex abuse scandals have rocked dioceses in the US, Ireland, Chile, Australia and other countries.

Pope Francis’ economic adviser slapped down allegations in Nuzzi’s book, calling them an attempt to discredit the pontiff.

“To say that the Vatican is at danger of default is false,” said Honduran Cardinal Oscar Maradiaga in an interview with Repubblica newspaper on Tuesday. “It seems to me there is a discrediting strategy underway.”
 





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#8
This is only an outrage because of the size and success of the C3 church and the corresponding wealth of the man who built that success. The reality is that almost all non-denominational churches operate on the same tithe model. C3 just happens to be more successful at it than most churches. The average non-denominational church does not get criticized the same, because the pastor isn't living a visibly wealthy lifestyle like Phil here. However the same teaching about tithing is used to manipulate and guilt members into giving 10% of their income to pay for a building and people who make their living off preaching.

Tithing is not a new testament biblical teaching. Tithing is part of the Old Testament temple/priest system. The same system that Jesus preached against and abolished with the new covenant. The reason most Christian's cannot hear from God accurately themselves is because they are paying a priest or pastor to be the "go between" God and themselves. By following and accepting the terms of the old priestly system, were the priests were the only ones who could enter the presence of God, they are preventing themselves from hearing God for themselves and hindering their ability to enter the presence of God on their own.

By accepting the false teaching of tithing, Christians are metaphorically re-hanging the temple veil that was torn in two at the crucifixion of Christ.

Yes there are many "Pastors" who teach tithing to the church, but do not make themselves rich off it. But it still does not change the fact that tithing is part of the old temple/priest system that has been done away with.
 





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#9
This is only an outrage because of the size and success of the C3 church and the corresponding wealth of the man who built that success. The reality is that almost all non-denominational churches operate on the same tithe model. C3 just happens to be more successful at it than most churches. The average non-denominational church does not get criticized the same, because the pastor isn't living a visibly wealthy lifestyle like Phil here. However the same teaching about tithing is used to manipulate and guilt members into giving 10% of their income to pay for a building and people who make their living off preaching.

Tithing is not a new testament biblical teaching. Tithing is part of the Old Testament temple/priest system. The same system that Jesus preached against and abolished with the new covenant. The reason most Christian's cannot hear from God accurately themselves is because they are paying a priest or pastor to be the "go between" God and themselves. By following and accepting the terms of the old priestly system, were the priests were the only ones who could enter the presence of God, they are preventing themselves from hearing God for themselves and hindering their ability to enter the presence of God on their own.

By accepting the false teaching of tithing, Christians are metaphorically re-hanging the temple veil that was torn in two at the crucifixion of Christ.

Yes there are many "Pastors" who teach tithing to the church, but do not make themselves rich off it. But it still does not change the fact that tithing is part of the old temple/priest system that has been done away with.
Tithing is in the New Testament teaching too.

Tithing has never been abolished and never will be till Jesus returns.

Jesus endorsed tithing in the New Testament. In Matthew 23:23 He said, “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.” Jesus rebuked the Jews for omitting the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy, faith—even though they were meticulous tithers. He then plainly told them they should continue tithing but should also be just and merciful and faithful.

Hebrews 7:8 says, “Here mortal men receive tithes, but there He [Jesus] receives them” That indicates giving tithes was not done away with and its Jesus who really receives our tithes.

Tithes are meant to support those who work in the ministry as their living. 1 Corinthians 9:13-14, “Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat of the things of the temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of the offerings of the altar? Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel” That's what the tithes were for in the Old Testament too. “I have given the children of Levi all the tithes in Israel as an inheritance in return for the work which they perform, the work of the tabernacle of meeting” (Numbers 18:21).

So the promise of Malachi 3:10-12 still stands and will stand till Jesus returns.

In the New Testament we see that during the time Jesus was on earth, tithes were still being given and the early Christian church also tithed. So when exactly did it stop?
 





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#10
...this is a new church to me... but sadly, it sounds like an age-old phenomenon.... Can someone better educated than me on C3 Australia elaborate on the claims in this report?

https://www.9news.com.au/national/a...uEeOHxU3QAgAXc-R_FX9_0njoM5ULWJJEU8_g4t0l7RN8

Members 'brainwashed' by mega-church into donating thousands

By Sacha Passi 8:16pm Sep 30, 2019


He's the flashy church leader who takes money for miracles and is living a million-dollar lifestyle thanks to the tax-free donations from his thousands of believers.

Phil Pringle rose from humble garbage collector to leader of C3 Church – one of the biggest churches you've probably never heard of, and the focus of a two-part exclusive investigation by A Current Affair.

Its target is God's hipsters - a following of young faithful hooked on Instagram.

Over three decades Phil Pringle has built an empire including around 400 churches world-wide, and the church claims more than 100,000 members.

And for a man of God, Phil Pringle is incredibly rich. He drives a luxury car and owns a palatial clifftop mansion overlooking the beach at Sydney's Mona Vale. It comes complete with an infinity pool and cost him $3.4 million seven years ago - it's now valued well above $4 million.

Phil Pringle is the leader of C3 Church. (A Current Affair)

He also enjoys skippering yachts in exotic destinations around the world. His message seems to be less about repenting your sins and more about building your finances.

"Go make millions and give it to the House of God ... Amen!" Phil Pringle preaches at one conference, recorded and published online. In another clip, the leader of C3 Americas Jurgen Matthesius is also captured giving the hard sell to parishioners.

"God is brilliant with ledgers. God is the most perfect accountant, he knows everything you give and he makes sure it comes back to you with interest," he said.

Another deputy and leader of C3, John Pearce, is even more blunt about how God's blessings work.

Phil Pringle with his wife, Chris. (A Current Affair)

"Some of you are going to walk into heaven and God is going to go 'massive mansion over there for you' like what's that for? He'll go, well you were part of C3 powerhouse," he said.

In a special investigation, former members reveal the extent of the pressure put on followers, starting with tithing – a term that requires you to donate 10 per cent of your pre-tax salary.

"The first 10 per cent of whatever they earn. So if you're on $100,000 that's $10,000 that you're giving per annum to them," former C3 Church member, Aaron said.

When asked by A Current Affair Reporter Dan Nolan about tithing, Phil Pringle said tithing is optional, but on C3's website, it's made clear that even if you are in "significant debt", your regular tithe is still expected.

C3 claims more than 100,000 members. (A Current Affair)

The preachers claim this is okay because if you give money to C3, God will bless you with more money in return.

"They would describe giving as like a seed," Aaron said.

"You not only give once, you've got to continue to give, which is like your watering of the seed and then it will grow and then eventually you'll get this big blessing and this good stuff will happen to you."

It's claimed by giving, followers can be blessed with 'miracles' - curing the sick and exorcising demons.

Phil Pringle lives a million-dollar lifestyle. (A Current Affair)

"In one offering, $50,000, $100,000, a million dollars in some cases, just at the drop of a hat like that," Aaron said.

The most recent information lodged on Australia's charity register reveals the total revenue declared by all C3 churches in Australia is $40 million annually - less than half of Hillsong Church's $103 million, but growing fast.

Most of that revenue was from donations and everything is tax-free. C3 Church Sydney Limited, a company that Phil Pringle is a director of has total assets of $46 million.

That includes 11 church locations, including the sprawling C3 Headquarters at Oxford Falls.

Reporter Dan Nolan questions Phil Pringle. (A Current Affair)

Kerri Ferguson was a member of Christian City Church before it became C3.

"They call it a free will gift or free will giving, that simply isn't true. You're brainwashed into giving this kind of money," she said.

She says even when she was raising five kids on her own, the pressure to tithe remained.

"There were nights in our house when my children did not have food. And I never got any assistance whatsoever from anybody," she said.

Phil Pringle skippers yachts around the world. (A Current Affair)

Chris Rosebrough is from Fighting For The Faith, a podcast dedicated to exposing prosperity preachers like Phil Pringle.

"They're playing on people's greed, playing on people's needs and basically exploiting them," he said.

The Christian pastor has analysed C3 Church and Pringle for years.

"Stories like these they are intended to bring large amounts of money, and convince somebody that God wants them to empty their savings account," he said.

Ex-church member Kerri Ferguson said people were "brainwashed" into donating money. (A Current Affair)

At the recent C3 Australia Conference at the Gold Coast, a speech about giving was streamed online before being removed the next day.

In the clip, worshipers are directed to the portable eftpos machines before stories of healing take centre stage. One man, who happens to be the son of another C3 Pastor John Pearce, claims Phil Pringle cured him of his epilepsy last year. Another man seeks a cure for his gut health.

And then there are 'miracle offerings', encouraging believers to donate a one-off hefty amount for a special need in their life - often to have children.

"They would portray it in this way of do this and you get this back, kind of thing. So whether that's new job, new house, new car, is it kids for some people?" Aaron said.

The total revenue declared by C3 Church in Australia was $40 million annually. (A Current Affair)

Chris Rosebrough, a devoted Christian, says the church's teachings don't align with the bible.

"The gifts of God are not for sale. Gifts of God are received as gifts, they are given freely by God, they cannot be purchased," he said.

Phil Pringle denied preaching about miracle offerings when approach by A Current Affair, saying, "well we certainly haven't preached that."

But audio recordings, since deleted offline, capture Phil Pringle explaining how "miracle offerings" work.

"It's a miracle because as you bring an offering to the Lord and stretch yourself into a zone you've never been before you're going to find yourself, God stretching his resources to you," he said.

"I believe there's a person here today who can give $1 million. In fact I believe there's two people who could do that."

Statement from C3 Church:

C3 Church has robust governance policies in place regarding remuneration of Pastors which extends to the remuneration of Ps Phil Pringle. All remuneration is set by an independent board of Directors and the quantum is benchmarked to organisations of a comparable size in the Education sector.

C3 Church complies with the disclosure guidelines articulated by the Australian Charities and Not-for-profits Commission (ACNC).

Ps Pringle confirms he fully complies with all his taxation obligations.
Its really sad that many false teachers are using the Word of God to enrich themselves. Its because of ministers like them that many turn away from Christianity. They misrepresent God and what He is about. They will have to answer to God one day for what they do if they don't repent and stop what they are doing.
 





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#11
Tithing is in the New Testament teaching too.
If you understood the tithe and it's purpose you would realize it is not valid today.

Tithing has never been abolished and never will be till Jesus returns.
Tithing was an intricate part of the temple/priest that Jesus constantly rebuked. If you think tithing is still valid today, you better re-instate the animal sacrifices and the levitacl priesthood.

Jesus endorsed tithing in the New Testament. In Matthew 23:23 He said, “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.” Jesus rebuked the Jews for omitting the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy, faith—even though they were meticulous tithers. He then plainly told them they should continue tithing but should also be just and merciful and faithful.
Your literal fundamentalist approach is blinding you from the truth Jesus is trying to teach. Justice mercy and faith are clearly what Jesus is promoting here, not the Tithe.

Hebrews 7:8 says, “Here mortal men receive tithes, but there He [Jesus] receives them” That indicates giving tithes was not done away with and its Jesus who really receives our tithes.
The book of Hebrews was written before the temple was destroyed, so of course tithing was not yet done away with. The context of the whole chapter is about Jesus becoming our priest and us no longer having need of nautral priesthoold. The purpose of the tithe was to support the natural priesthood. You think Jesus needs our tithe to make a living?

26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, [i]harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.

The tithe was needed to support the priesthood of man "who have weakness". Jesus does not have weakness and does not require our natural tithe. If you want to make some spiritual analogy and that Jesus deserves a spritual tithe, go ahead. But the tithe of 10% of the work of our natural hand to institutional religion is no longer valid.

Tithes are meant to support those who work in the ministry as their living. 1 Corinthians 9:13-14, “Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat of the things of the temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of the offerings of the altar? Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel” That's what the tithes were for in the Old Testament too. “I have given the children of Levi all the tithes in Israel as an inheritance in return for the work which they perform, the work of the tabernacle of meeting” (Numbers 18:21).

Which completely contradicts what Jesus said about preaching the gospel. We are all to preach the gospel. Jesus never intended the preaching of the gospel to be a vocation.


John 10:12-14
Luke 16:13
Math 10:8
1 Peter 5:2-3


In Luke 10:1-10 Jesus does say that itinerant ministers (those who travel to spread the gospel) are worthy of his wages, but then explicitly states that the wages are hospitality and food, not a salary or tithe of anyones income.

This is confirmed in Math 10:8-10. " Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food. "



In the New Testament we see that during the time Jesus was on earth, tithes were still being given and the early Christian church also tithed. So when exactly did it stop?
When the temple was destroyed in 70AD! Clearly you don't understand the purpose of the tithe, or you would clearly see there is no need of it today.
 





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#12
If you understood the tithe and it's purpose you would realize it is not valid today.


Tithing was an intricate part of the temple/priest that Jesus constantly rebuked. If you think tithing is still valid today, you better re-instate the animal sacrifices and the levitacl priesthood.


Your literal fundamentalist approach is blinding you from the truth Jesus is trying to teach. Justice mercy and faith are clearly what Jesus is promoting here, not the Tithe.


The book of Hebrews was written before the temple was destroyed, so of course tithing was not yet done away with. The context of the whole chapter is about Jesus becoming our priest and us no longer having need of nautral priesthoold. The purpose of the tithe was to support the natural priesthood. You think Jesus needs our tithe to make a living?

26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, [i]harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.

The tithe was needed to support the priesthood of man "who have weakness". Jesus does not have weakness and does not require our natural tithe. If you want to make some spiritual analogy and that Jesus deserves a spritual tithe, go ahead. But the tithe of 10% of the work of our natural hand to institutional religion is no longer valid.


Which completely contradicts what Jesus said about preaching the gospel. We are all to preach the gospel. Jesus never intended the preaching of the gospel to be a vocation.

John 10:12-14
Luke 16:13
Math 10:8
1 Peter 5:2-3


In Luke 10:1-10 Jesus does say that itinerant ministers (those who travel to spread the gospel) are worthy of his wages, but then explicitly states that the wages are hospitality and food, not a salary or tithe of anyones income.

This is confirmed in Math 10:8-10. " Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food. "




When the temple was destroyed in 70AD! Clearly you don't understand the purpose of the tithe, or you would clearly see there is no need of it today.
If you understood the tithe and it's purpose you would realize it is not valid today.
I understand it and I showed you why, that is why I know that giving tithe is still valid and will be until Jesus returns.

Tithing was an intricate part of the temple/priest that Jesus constantly rebuked. If you think tithing is still valid today, you better re-instate the animal sacrifices and the levitacl priesthood.
Tithing was important in the Old and New Testaments and still is today. Jesus never rebuked it. This is not biblical at all.

Your literal fundamentalist approach is blinding you from the truth Jesus is trying to teach. Justice mercy and faith are clearly what Jesus is promoting here, not the Tithe.
How is my approach fundamentalist when I'm using scripture and using Jesus' own words. I know I'm not blinded, its you and let me show you why again.

Matthew 23:23, “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.Jesus told the Pharisees they ought to have given tithe but also not to neglect the weightier matters of the law such as justice, mercy and faith. Please do not twist Jesus' words to fit in with your doctrine. That is wrong!

And if following the actual word of God is fundamentalist according to you, then I want to be a fundamentalist because no one who doesn't follow God's will will make it to heaven. i want to meet my Saviour when He returns and be with Him for eternity.

The book of Hebrews was written before the temple was destroyed, so of course tithing was not yet done away with. The context of the whole chapter is about Jesus becoming our priest and us no longer having need of nautral priesthoold. The purpose of the tithe was to support the natural priesthood. You think Jesus needs our tithe to make a living?
Really? So what about what Paul wrote in Hebrews 7:8, "Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives." Was that also about the Priests in Jerusalem? Remember the New Testament is for everyone and the message in it was never just for Jews.

Jesus never needs anything from us seeing that He is God, but those who work in the ministry full time for a living need our money which is the point Paul made in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14, “Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat of the things of the temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of the offerings of the altar? Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel”

For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, [i]harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
You've misunderstood these verses. You should read teh whole Chapter to understand. The verses are about the flawed high priests in the Old Testament compared to Jesus Christ our High Priest in heaven.

The high Priests of the Old Testament were flawed but appointed by God-given Law to serve their purpose at that time. Jesus, on the other hand, is perfect because He is sinless and perfect morally. Jesus has been appointed to His position directly by God unlike the Levitical priests who inherited their titles. Jesus lives forever, and will not lose His priesthood to death as mortal priests did. Human efforts were incomplete, but Jesus' efforts remove our sins completely.

Don't spin these verses to mean something they don't. Hebrews chapter 7 talks about Jesus as our High Priest and how great He and how much we need Him. Chapters 8-10 are also about the differences of the earthly and heavenly Sanctuary. check them out and you'll see.

The tithe was needed to support the priesthood of man "who have weakness". Jesus does not have weakness and does not require our natural tithe. If you want to make some spiritual analogy and that Jesus deserves a spritual tithe, go ahead. But the tithe of 10% of the work of our natural hand to institutional religion is no longer valid.
I would never think let alone say or imply that giving tithes has anything to do with Jesus or Him having weaknesses. Jesus is God, He has no weaknesses. God asked us to give tithes for a reason and that is to support gospel workers, it has nothing to do with Jesus needing anything from us. I have no analogy about Jesus deserving spiritual tithes because it doesn't exist. When we give tithes Jesus takes note of that as our obedience, faith and trust in Him. That is what is meant by Jesus receiving our tithes. You have completely missed the point that Paul made.

Which completely contradicts what Jesus said about preaching the gospel. We are all to preach the gospel. Jesus never intended the preaching of the gospel to be a vocation.
John 10:12-14
Luke 16:13
Math 10:8
1 Peter 5:2-3
Yes we are all to preach the gospel but there are those who have/had a calling to minister to people full time like the apostles, Paul, Barnabas, etc. They were called to be missionaries and to preach the Gospel of God. God called them to this particular kind of work. And hasn't God all throughout the Bible from the Old to the New Testament called people to do particular kinds of tasks? Noah, Moses, Aaron, the Levitical Priests, Samuel and other prophets, kings, craftsmen to build the temple etc. So also today they are people who God calls through the Holy spirit into ministry.

John 10 is about Jesus the Shepard who is true, good and knows His sheep. Why have you posted this scripture here?

Luke 16:1-13 is the parable of the Unjust Steward and verse 13 says, "No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.”

1 Peter 5:1-4 is about how the elders in the Church should Shepard or lead the flock. The elder is to accept office, not under coercion, but willingly, not to make a shameful profit out of it, but eagerly and not to be a petty tyrant, but to be the shepherd and the example of the flock.

Matthew 10 shows that Jesus chose the 12 apostles to preach the gospel and is also about how Christ trained His disciples to carry on His work, which included physical and spiritual healing. Matthew 10:8-10 says, "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food." Jesus is telling the apostles, as they received their teaching freely from Him, they are not to teach people expecting payment for it. They had a special message and it was their duty to preach without expecting any privileges or out for what they can get. As ministers they must show that their first interest is god not money and material things. When Jesus says "for a worker is worthy of his food", He was talking about the support they would get from the Church as the Levites were supported by the Israelites in the olden days.

I don't know if you know this but during Jesus' full time ministry with the apostles, people gave them money and Judas was in charge of that money (Luke 8:3, John 12:6). That money supported them with food and their day to day needs so they could get on with the business of preaching the word of God. Of course Judas was stealing from the money box but the apostles didn't know except Jesus (John 13:18-30).

So Jesus was not talking about tithes in Matthew 10. Jesus does not contradict Himself.

In Luke 10:1-10 Jesus does say that itinerant ministers (those who travel to spread the gospel) are worthy of his wages, but then explicitly states that the wages are hospitality and food, not a salary or tithe of anyones income.
In Luke 10:1-10 we see that Jesus chose ministers to go preaching and gives them almost the same instructions as He gave the twelve apostles in Matthew 10 but not once does He say anything about tithe nor does He abolish it.

When the temple was destroyed in 70AD! Clearly you don't understand the purpose of the tithe, or you would clearly see there is no need of it today.
Where does it say in the Bible that tithe were only to be given until the temple was destroyed? Don't you know that long before the temple was destroyed, it had ceased to mean anything? When Jesus died, the veil that separated the holy and most holy rooms was torn from top to bottom at the very hour He died because Jesus the lamb had died for our sins on the cross (Matthew 27:45-55). Why? Because the earthly temple system was about Jesus' sacrifice represented by animal sacrifices. Since Jesus had died on the cross, animal sacrifices were cancelled out. Also when Jesus went back to heaven, He went into the heavenly temple and officiated as High Priest making intercession for us (Hebrews 7:25). There was no point for the high priest in the earthly temple carrying out his duties any more because Jesus had replaced him in heaven with better sacrifices.

Hebrews 9:11-12, "But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption."

You still haven't shown me scripture where giving tithe was abolished? Until you do everything you've posted to me is just your opinion isn't it?

Its clear you're the one that doesn't understand the purpose of tithes and are misunderstanding and using scripture out of context to claim that tithes are not needed today when Jesus and His Word doesn't.
 





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Johnny5

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#13
That C3 organization, wont call it a church, is preaching the prosperity doctrine. Which is false teaching. It sounds like his version is on steroids though.
 





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#15
I understand it and I showed you why, that is why I know that giving tithe is still valid and will be until Jesus returns.
I must have missed where you explained the purpose of tithe thorugh exposition of the Old Testament scriptures. The only part I saw was the out of context quotes of irrelevant new testament quotes containing the word tithe.

Tithing was important in the Old and New Testaments and still is today. Jesus never rebuked it. This is not biblical at all.
It was important in the OT but not really a main subject of any text in the new testament.

How is my approach fundamentalist when I'm using scripture and using Jesus' own words. I know I'm not blinded, its you and let me show you why again.
I'm not sure you understand the definition of fundamentalist.

Matthew 23:23, “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.Jesus told the Pharisees they ought to have given tithe but also not to neglect the weightier matters of the law such as justice, mercy and faith. Please do not twist Jesus' words to fit in with your doctrine. That is wrong!
Yes Jesus told the priests they ought to have tithed, because they were still operating under the old covenant, temple system. Are yo still operating under the old covenant temple system?

And if following the actual word of God is fundamentalist according to you, then I want to be a fundamentalist because no one who doesn't follow God's will will make it to heaven. i want to meet my Saviour when He returns and be with Him for eternity.
fundamentalism is following the doctrine and dogma of institionalized religion. Yes it's followers think it's based on the word of God, but it's really not.

Really? So what about what Paul wrote in Hebrews 7:8, "Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives." Was that also about the Priests in Jerusalem? Remember the New Testament is for everyone and the message in it was never just for Jews.
You might want to read the whole context, before you assume you know what this verse means. The fact that "receives them" is italicized in your paticular translation, ought to be the first clue.

Hebrew 7 is comparing the old levitical priesthood with the new priesthood of Jesus Christ. The receiving of tithes is one of the indicators of the difference between the old priesthood and the new. Hebrews 7:8 is saying we knew who the old priesthood was because they (mortal men) received tithes, but we know who the new priest is because of the witness of his resurrection. The reason "recieves of them" is italicized, is because it is not found in the original manuscripts. It was inserted by the Church as an attempt to justify the continutation of the tithe, which is a part of the obsolete temple/priesthood.

Jesus never needs anything from us seeing that He is God, but those who work in the ministry full time for a living need our money which is the point Paul made in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14, “Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat of the things of the temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of the offerings of the altar? Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel”
See now you are contradicting yourself. First you try to use Heberews 7:8 as proof that Jesus receives our tithes and now your are claiming that Jesus doesn't need our tithes and that it's for those in full time ministry. This right here indicates that you have bought into the lie of the Nicolatians that there is still a distinction and seperation between clergy and laity. Don't you know that according to 1 Peter 2:9 all who have recieved grace are a royal priesthood?

The high Priests of the Old Testament were flawed but appointed by God-given Law to serve their purpose at that time. Jesus, on the other hand, is perfect because He is sinless and perfect morally. Jesus has been appointed to His position directly by God unlike the Levitical priests who inherited their titles. Jesus lives forever, and will not lose His priesthood to death as mortal priests did. Human efforts were incomplete, but Jesus' efforts remove our sins completely.
I agree, but this seems more like an argument to abolish the tithe, then a reason to keep it.

God asked us to give tithes for a reason and that is to support gospel workers, it has nothing to do with Jesus needing anything from us.
No God commanded Isreal to tithe to support the levitical priesthood. I find no mention of Jesus or God saying the tithe would be "changed" to support gospel workers. Aren't we all supposed to be "gospel workers"?

Yes we are all to preach the gospel but there are those who have/had a calling to minister to people full time like the apostles, Paul, Barnabas, etc. They were called to be missionaries and to preach the Gospel of God. God called them to this particular kind of work. And hasn't God all throughout the Bible from the Old to the New Testament called people to do particular kinds of tasks? Noah, Moses, Aaron, the Levitical Priests, Samuel and other prophets, kings, craftsmen to build the temple etc. So also today they are people who God calls through the Holy spirit into ministry.
That's a nice thought but it's not biblical and there is no scriptural basis that the tithe was changed to support apostles or any other mimnisty vocations. If that were the case we would see examples of the apsotles receiving the tithe, but we don't. Paul made tents to support himself so he could continue the work of his ministry. If the tithe was still a commandment from God, Paul would be leading other's astray by his example of not accepting the tithe for his livelyhood.

John 10 is about Jesus the Shepard who is true, good and knows His sheep. Why have you posted this scripture here?
To show that Jesus did not agree with your fundamentalist paradigm of paid clergy/shephereds.

12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

Luke 16:1-13 is the parable of the Unjust Steward and verse 13 says, "No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.”
Again it is Jesus words contradicting the fundamentalist paradigm of salaried ministry.

1 Peter 5:1-4 is about how the elders in the Church should Shepard or lead the flock. The elder is to accept office, not under coercion, but willingly, not to make a shameful profit out of it, but eagerly and not to be a petty tyrant, but to be the shepherd and the example of the flock.
Yes, money is the greatest form of coercion.

Matthew 10 shows that Jesus chose the 12 apostles to preach the gospel and is also about how Christ trained His disciples to carry on His work, which included physical and spiritual healing. Matthew 10:8-10 says, "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food." Jesus is telling the apostles, as they received their teaching freely from Him, they are not to teach people expecting payment for it. They had a special message and it was their duty to preach without expecting any privileges or out for what they can get. As ministers they must show that their first interest is god not money and material things. When Jesus says "for a worker is worthy of his food", He was talking about the support they would get from the Church as the Levites were supported by the Israelites in the olden days.
Oh really? How many people pay their tithe in the form of food and how many "fulltime ministers" accept their salary in food only. Jesus clearly was speaking about itinerant preachers accepting the hospitality of people who accepted them when the travelled. Jesus didn't send out his disciples with a stipend and expect them to stay at the local "motel 6".

I don't know if you know this but during Jesus' full time ministry with the apostles, people gave them money and Judas was in charge of that money (Luke 8:3, John 12:6). That money supported them with food and their day to day needs so they could get on with the business of preaching the word of God. Of course Judas was stealing from the money box but the apostles didn't know except Jesus (John 13:18-30).
Actually if you look closer, that money was used as Alms to help the poor, widows and orphans. That is the only biblical reason for giving money to the church, so that the church can look out for those in need, not pay ministers.

So Jesus was not talking about tithes in Matthew 10. Jesus does not contradict Himself.
I see no mention of tithes at all in Matthew 10. What I see is voluntary giving to those in need (not full time ministry). I.e. Alms, which is a completely diffferent concept than tithing.

40 “Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. 41 Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.”

In Luke 10:1-10 we see that Jesus chose ministers to go preaching and gives them almost the same instructions as He gave the twelve apostles in Matthew 10 but not once does He say anything about tithe nor does He abolish it.
There is no mention of tithe in Luke 10 becuase it has absolutely no bearing on the situation. Tithe was for the levitical priesthood. Jesus never said his disciples were taking up the office or position of the levitical priesthood.

Where does it say in the Bible that tithe were only to be given until the temple was destroyed? Don't you know that long before the temple was destroyed, it had ceased to mean anything? When Jesus died, the veil that separated the holy and most holy rooms was torn from top to bottom at the very hour He died because Jesus the lamb had died for our sins on the cross (Matthew 27:45-55). Why? Because the earthly temple system was about Jesus' sacrifice represented by animal sacrifices. Since Jesus had died on the cross, animal sacrifices were cancelled out. Also when Jesus went back to heaven, He went into the heavenly temple and officiated as High Priest making intercession for us (Hebrews 7:25). There was no point for the high priest in the earthly temple carrying out his duties any more because Jesus had replaced him in heaven with better sacrifices.
Agreed and since the purpose of the tithe was to support the temple system and it's priesthood, it is only logical that when the temple was destroyed there would no longer be a valid reason for the tithe.

Hebrews 9:11-12, "But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption."
You still haven't shown me scripture where giving tithe was abolished? Until you do everything you've posted to me is just your opinion isn't it?
Its clear you're the one that doesn't understand the purpose of tithes and are misunderstanding and using scripture out of context to claim that tithes are not needed today when Jesus and His Word doesn't.[/QUOTE]
I think you have it exactly backwards. The purpose of the tithe was to support the temple system, so unless you believe the temple system is still intact and valid today you have no basis to claim the tithe is still valid.[/quote]
 





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#16
I must have missed where you explained the purpose of tithe thorugh exposition of the Old Testament scriptures. The only part I saw was the out of context quotes of irrelevant new testament quotes containing the word tithe.


It was important in the OT but not really a main subject of any text in the new testament.


I'm not sure you understand the definition of fundamentalist.


Yes Jesus told the priests they ought to have tithed, because they were still operating under the old covenant, temple system. Are yo still operating under the old covenant temple system?


fundamentalism is following the doctrine and dogma of institionalized religion. Yes it's followers think it's based on the word of God, but it's really not.


You might want to read the whole context, before you assume you know what this verse means. The fact that "receives them" is italicized in your paticular translation, ought to be the first clue.

Hebrew 7 is comparing the old levitical priesthood with the new priesthood of Jesus Christ. The receiving of tithes is one of the indicators of the difference between the old priesthood and the new. Hebrews 7:8 is saying we knew who the old priesthood was because they (mortal men) received tithes, but we know who the new priest is because of the witness of his resurrection. The reason "recieves of them" is italicized, is because it is not found in the original manuscripts. It was inserted by the Church as an attempt to justify the continutation of the tithe, which is a part of the obsolete temple/priesthood.


See now you are contradicting yourself. First you try to use Heberews 7:8 as proof that Jesus receives our tithes and now your are claiming that Jesus doesn't need our tithes and that it's for those in full time ministry. This right here indicates that you have bought into the lie of the Nicolatians that there is still a distinction and seperation between clergy and laity. Don't you know that according to 1 Peter 2:9 all who have recieved grace are a royal priesthood?


I agree, but this seems more like an argument to abolish the tithe, then a reason to keep it.


No God commanded Isreal to tithe to support the levitical priesthood. I find no mention of Jesus or God saying the tithe would be "changed" to support gospel workers. Aren't we all supposed to be "gospel workers"?


That's a nice thought but it's not biblical and there is no scriptural basis that the tithe was changed to support apostles or any other mimnisty vocations. If that were the case we would see examples of the apsotles receiving the tithe, but we don't. Paul made tents to support himself so he could continue the work of his ministry. If the tithe was still a commandment from God, Paul would be leading other's astray by his example of not accepting the tithe for his livelyhood.


To show that Jesus did not agree with your fundamentalist paradigm of paid clergy/shephereds.

12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.


Again it is Jesus words contradicting the fundamentalist paradigm of salaried ministry.


Yes, money is the greatest form of coercion.


Oh really? How many people pay their tithe in the form of food and how many "fulltime ministers" accept their salary in food only. Jesus clearly was speaking about itinerant preachers accepting the hospitality of people who accepted them when the travelled. Jesus didn't send out his disciples with a stipend and expect them to stay at the local "motel 6".


Actually if you look closer, that money was used as Alms to help the poor, widows and orphans. That is the only biblical reason for giving money to the church, so that the church can look out for those in need, not pay ministers.


I see no mention of tithes at all in Matthew 10. What I see is voluntary giving to those in need (not full time ministry). I.e. Alms, which is a completely diffferent concept than tithing.

40 “Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. 41 Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.”


There is no mention of tithe in Luke 10 becuase it has absolutely no bearing on the situation. Tithe was for the levitical priesthood. Jesus never said his disciples were taking up the office or position of the levitical priesthood.


Agreed and since the purpose of the tithe was to support the temple system and it's priesthood, it is only logical that when the temple was destroyed there would no longer be a valid reason for the tithe.


You still haven't shown me scripture where giving tithe was abolished? Until you do everything you've posted to me is just your opinion isn't it?
Its clear you're the one that doesn't understand the purpose of tithes and are misunderstanding and using scripture out of context to claim that tithes are not needed today when Jesus and His Word doesn't.
I think you have it exactly backwards. The purpose of the tithe was to support the temple system, so unless you believe the temple system is still intact and valid today you have no basis to claim the tithe is still valid.[/quote][/QUOTE]

I must have missed where you explained the purpose of tithe thorugh exposition of the Old Testament scriptures. The only part I saw was the out of context quotes of irrelevant new testament quotes containing the word tithe.
I have a forum on this subject where I explain this in more detail. Tithing has never been abolished and never will be till Jesus returns

It was important in the OT but not really a main subject of any text in the new testament.
There are many things in the Bible that are not main subjects but are to be followed by faithful Christians. Sexual sin like homosexuality, incest, fornication etc are not main subjects but are sins never the less. So just because something isn't a main subject doesn't mean it doesn't matter. Everything in the Bible matters and is there for a reason.

I'm not sure you understand the definition of fundamentalist.
Oh I understood. I just twisted it round to make a point.

Yes Jesus told the priests they ought to have tithed, because they were still operating under the old covenant, temple system. Are yo still operating under the old covenant temple system?
The Bible does not say once that tithing would stop operating under the Old covenant. In fact tithing began before the Old covenant temple system. You don't seem to know the history of tithing. Genesis 14:20 says, “And he [Abram] gave him a tithe of all.” And in Genesis 28:22, Jacob said, “Of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You.” These passages reveal that both Abraham and Jacob, who lived long before Moses’ day, tithed their income. We can therefore conclude that God’s plan of tithing is not limited to Moses’ law and applies to all people of all times.

fundamentalism is following the doctrine and dogma of institionalized religion. Yes it's followers think it's based on the word of God, but it's really not.
Aren't you sweet to explain fundamentalism to me. I don't believe in organised religion nor do I belong in one. You just presume I do. I have shown you actual scripture that its based on the word of God, you on the other hand have just told me your opinions. There is a difference and you know it!

You might want to read the whole context, before you assume you know what this verse means. The fact that "receives them" is italicized in your paticular translation, ought to be the first clue.

Hebrew 7 is comparing the old levitical priesthood with the new priesthood of Jesus Christ. The receiving of tithes is one of the indicators of the difference between the old priesthood and the new. Hebrews 7:8 is saying we knew who the old priesthood was because they (mortal men) received tithes, but we know who the new priest is because of the witness of his resurrection. The reason "recieves of them" is italicized, is because it is not found in the original manuscripts. It was inserted by the Church as an attempt to justify the continutation of the tithe, which is a part of the obsolete temple/priesthood.
That is not what Hebrews 7:8 is saying.

See now you are contradicting yourself. First you try to use Heberews 7:8 as proof that Jesus receives our tithes and now your are claiming that Jesus doesn't need our tithes and that it's for those in full time ministry. This right here indicates that you have bought into the lie of the Nicolatians that there is still a distinction and seperation between clergy and laity. Don't you know that according to 1 Peter 2:9 all who have recieved grace are a royal priesthood?
So you still don't get it. Jesus receives our tithes in that He sees that we are doing what He asked of us. Jesus does not need our money or anything from us. Paul was saying that Jesus could see that we are being faithful and trusting. Paul Himself made it clear that the money goes to those in the ministry. But Jesus can see what is in our hearts. The money doesn't somehow go to heaven you know. Come on now!

I agree, but this seems more like an argument to abolish the tithe, then a reason to keep it.
In your mind yes but not biblically.

No God commanded Isreal to tithe to support the levitical priesthood. I find no mention of Jesus or God saying the tithe would be "changed" to support gospel workers. Aren't we all supposed to be "gospel workers"?
According to your opinion not according to the Word of God.

That's a nice thought but it's not biblical and there is no scriptural basis that the tithe was changed to support apostles or any other mimnisty vocations. If that were the case we would see examples of the apsotles receiving the tithe, but we don't. Paul made tents to support himself so he could continue the work of his ministry. If the tithe was still a commandment from God, Paul would be leading other's astray by his example of not accepting the tithe for his livelyhood.
It is and in the Bible we read about it. I will choose to accept the Word of God, not yours thank you. Paul made tents but he was also supported financially by the Philippians.

To show that Jesus did not agree with your fundamentalist paradigm of paid clergy/shephereds.

12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
You used John 10, Luke 16, 1 peter 5 and Matthew 10 out of context because they are not about tithes, they are about entirely different subjects that you spinned to make a point . Stop doing that btw. Its not right as I told you before!

Actually if you look closer, that money was used as Alms to help the poor, widows and orphans. That is the only biblical reason for giving money to the church, so that the church can look out for those in need, not pay ministers.
Show me scripture to prove this. Your words are useless without proof from the Bible.

I see no mention of tithes at all in Matthew 10. What I see is voluntary giving to those in need (not full time ministry). I.e. Alms, which is a completely diffferent concept than tithing.
Exactly, there is no mention of tithes in Matthew 10 and that is the point I was making. Tithes are not mentioned but that doesn't mean they were done away with. The subject matter was just not brought up in those verses because they were about something else altogether. This also applies to Luke 10. I also refer you to what Paul said about tithes again.

Agreed and since the purpose of the tithe was to support the temple system and it's priesthood, it is only logical that when the temple was destroyed there would no longer be a valid reason for the tithe.
This is wrong and I explained why above. Tithe are mentioned in Hebrews and said Jesus receives them so it has got nothing to do with the temple system. Paul was aware by then that the earthly temple system had already ended. Not once does he say stop giving tithes because the earthly temple system has ended. That is your man made tradition talking and its not logical or biblical.

I think you have it exactly backwards. The purpose of the tithe was to support the temple system, so unless you believe the temple system is still intact and valid today you have no basis to claim the tithe is still valid.
No I don't have anything backwards, that's you. You have convinced yourself what tithes were for but that is not biblical as I've shown you. And I still see no scripture from you that says tithing was abolished. I know you can't show me because it doesn't exist. You are wrong on this subject and I don't mean that in bad way. I hope and pray you go to my forum to find out more about this subject. Do more research but first ask God to reveal the truth to you through the Holy Spirit. This is my last response to you on this subject. God bless.
 





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No I don't have anything backwards, that's you. You have convinced yourself what tithes were for but that is not biblical as I've shown you. And I still see no scripture from you that says tithing was abolished. I know you can't show me because it doesn't exist. You are wrong on this subject and I don't mean that in bad way. I hope and pray you go to my forum to find out more about this subject. Do more research but first ask God to reveal the truth to you through the Holy Spirit. This is my last response to you on this subject. God bless.
You think I haven't already done that?

So if you don't belong to organized religion, who do you tithe to?

Since you brought up the orginal tithe of Abraham and then Jacob, you realize that the tithe was 10% of the land, so produce and livestock. Tithing was not about money. Do you grow crops and raise livestock on your land? If not, I'm not really sure how you think you are tithing according to the pattern of Abraham and Jacob. Jacob did not have a priesthood to tithe to, so it's likely that he kept his oath by burning sacrifices directly to God. Do you take wads of cash and burn them as sacrifices to God?

Even if we assume that monetary tithing is the same as what Abraham and Jacob did, by tithing to men you are saying you need a priesthood as an intermediary between you and God. That is what the original tithe was for, to provide an intermediary between oneself and God. Yes even Abraham's tithing was to Medchizedek the priest of Salem. Jacob on the other hand likely gave his tithe to God through burnt offerings. Is that how you are doing it?

Anyways, have it and enjoy putting yourself under the curse of tithing if that's what you want to do. I did it for 15 years incorrectly assuming that what the church told me was biblical when I saw for myself that it wasn't. The paradigm of organized religion is to threaten that if you don't tithe you will be finacially cursed. I am no worse off finacially after 15 years of no tithing. What I have observed is that when I am generous with my resources to help others in need, God always blesses me back. But I give to those in need directly out of the cheerfullness of my heart. I don't tithe out of obligation to an institution of religion.
 





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#18
The history of tithing is so shrouded in antiquity that we do not know just how it began, but it may be nearly as ancient as the Sabbath and marriage. The first mention of tithing in the Bible is a casual mention of Abraham returning a tithe to Melchizedek (Genesis 14:18-20) whom Paul later refers to as a type of Christ. (Hebrews 5:6-10, 7:1-9)

Just like the Ten Commandments, the practice of tithing was confirmed at Mt Sinai in the Exodus (Levitcus 27:30-33). It is not introduced as a new practice, but it is stated matter-of-factly that “A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord.” The tithe was devoted to the support of the Levites who were consecrated to the service of the sanctuary and had no other source of income. (Numbers 18:21,24) Thus, in the Christian era, the tithe is reserved to support those who are recognized by the body of believers as having consecrated their lives to the service of God, leaving them no other source of income (1 Corinthians 9:8-14). The tithe, because it belongs to God, is thus “holy” (Leviticus 27:30) and using it for our own purposes is not keeping what belongs to us, but it is stealing from God (Malachi 3:8).

While Christ did not specifically command tithing any more than He specifically commanded Sabbath keeping or marriage, He referred to it when He pointed out that the scribes and Pharisees tithed even the herbs of the garden while they neglected justice and mercy and faith. When he said, “These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone,” He implicitly affirmed tithing by saying they ought not leave tithing “undone” (Matthew 23:23).

The principle of tithing rests upon the fact that the Lord is our Maker, and we belong to Him by virtue of creation and also redemption. Thus all our time and possessions belong to Him as well. He asks us to reserve 1/7 of our time exclusively for Him as well as 1/10 of our material possessions in acknowledgement of His being Creator and thus Possessor of all (Psalms 24:1). The tithe is also an acknowledgement of the fact that God is the one who gives us the power to make an income (Deuteronomy 8:18).

That’s why we return tithe to God; we do not pay tithe. We recognize that we are only managers or “stewards” of the Lord’s possessions. We are to manage His possessions in a way to glorify Him, the owner, not us, the managers. And I believe that the blessings promised in Malachi are ours to claim as well (Malachi 3:10-12). From experience, I am quite sure that the 9/10 that the Lord allows us to keep will stretch much further with the Lord’s blessing than the whole would without His blessings. What a privilege to be in partnership with God as His managers!

The process of “testing” is generally reserved for the Lord, and the Bible warns us generally that we are not to “test God” (Exodus 17:2; Deuteronomy 6:16). However, in the matter of tithing, the Lord specifically challenges His people, saying

"Test me in this,” says the Lord Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it." (Malachi 3:10) NIV

I have tested the Lord and found His promises true. And if you’ve never tested the Lord this way, why not start this very day?
 





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#19
And if you’ve never tested the Lord this way, why not start this very day?
I tested what the church taught me and found bondage and curse.
I tested what God showed me and found blessings!

The tithe is the obligatory requirement that instiutuional religion uses to keep people in bondage and guilt.
The new testament model is giving to the needy out of a cheerful heart....you know mercy one of the weightier matters.
 





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#20
Tithe Is to Be Used for Only One Purpose

What is the tithe money to be used for in the Lord's work? Please turn to 1 Corinthians 9:13: "Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?" Here Paul is referring to the priesthood of the Old Testament and how they received a livelihood for their work of ministry at the ancient altar. But now read the very next verse: "Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel." Verse 14. This text clearly teaches that the gospel minister is to be supported exactly the same way as the priests of the Old Testament.

We now turn to the Scriptures to find out what God's plan was for the support of the ministry, both in the Old Testament and in the New. In Numbers 18:21 we read, "And behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation." The tribe of Levi was not given any inheritance as the other Israelites were. They had no herds, or business ventures. All the other tribes paid tithe and that one-tenth was used to pay the priests, the Levites.

All right, "Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel," so Paul said. The tithe is not to be used for an education fund, a church expense fund, or even a poor fund. It is ordained of God only to pay the ministry. This is the biblical way for preachers to be supported.

I heard of one preacher who closed all the doors of the church and refused to preach until the offering goal of a certain sum was reached. Other churches have resorted to religious fairs, lotteries, bingo, etc. to meet their pastoral financial obligations. Is this the plan of God? Is this the way He had ordained for churches to meet the deficit in their budgets? This is not according to God's plan. Something is desperately wrong with a church which has to bring the world into its operating plan. If Christ should walk into some of these temples and cathedrals of our day, He would be just as indignant as He was in days of old. He would say once more, "Take these things hence. You have made my house of prayer a den of thieves." What a tragedy it is that many young people have learned to be expert in gambling inside the walls of their own church. What a sad commentary on the state of modern religious leaders who encourage such demonstrations. Is this what God expects from the people who are called by His name?

Some Preachers Fear to Preach Truth Because of Money

God never intended for preachers to dabble in real estate, car sales, or some side business. A man called of God should give his whole time to the Word of God. His livelihood, in other words, should be supplied by the divine plan of the tithing system. This system eliminates one of the greatest temptations facing the modern minister of the gospel. Some preachers are actually afraid to preach the plain truth for fear of cutting off their own salary.

When a pastor is paid directly by the local congregation and has to depend solely upon the liberality of one church group, he is in an anxious dilemma. If he rebukes sin as it should be rebuked, he may offend the very ones who may stop giving offerings, and thus his own salary will be jeopardized.

Now I know that no true pastor would preach smooth things just for worldly gain; nevertheless, many are actually afraid to preach plainly under the conditions I've just described. God's plan eliminates that temptation to soften the truth. A local congregation shouldn't be directly paying the man who preaches to them, and this would eliminate that great danger. His method of tithing eliminates the temptation for a pastor to soften the truth.

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