Man enough

[Daze]

It's not the women that seemed threatened, though.

This thread was made to show men how their testosterone is being purposefully lowered and some ways to counter it. Yet by your own words, somehow it was Destined to be derailed.

By who? Who would get triggered by this concept? Who was most offended by this thread? Did a single man take offense? Or was it multiple feminists? As if this thread is somehow an attack on feminism.

Honestly, i had no idea man vs woman was up there with black and white, rich and poor and other divisive talking points. Yet there are at least 5 feminists here when we barely have 2 dozen active posters.

A joke is what it is. Pro man does not equal Anti woman. When are you people gonna wake up? Everything is not a competition.

 

[justjess]

Too much estrogen makes men docile and easier to subjugate.

For example you were quick to mask up. Cowering to the fear porn put out by our modern day tyrants.

I often wonder if you were not a member of these forums, if you yourself would have taken the vaccine.
When i remember your arguments a year ago i believe you would have.

Edit : btw, low testosterone does not make one gay, just.. for lack of a better word.. more controllable.

Here is where “five feminists” (I counted three, myself included) have an issue. You are saying low testosterone is making men into women and that low testosterone makes you docile and controllable. So you are saying women are controllable. We are not. Sorry. All the “negative”things you think men are suffering from you attribute cause to the lack of a hormone women naturally lack. So your saying women naturally are all those negative things. You can try to dance around it but your just sugarcoating a thread which insults women. I have low testosterone, I’m a female, I DARE you or anyone else to try to control me - it won’t work in your favor. Ask my high testosterone mans man husband

you modern men are easily controlled because you are pampered, spoiled and entitled. No hormone imbalance necessary. I do blame women for picking up your slack for so many centuries that you’ve become convinced that this is the natural order of things and no longer know how to deal with conflict or adversity on your own but it is what it is.

 

[Daze]

just shaking my head. I am so tired of the victim card and everyone being so desperate for it. Just stop, everything is not about YOU.

 

[The Agrarian]

@Daze

Bless you for this thread.
I needed the motivation to hit the weights.

 

[lightseeker]

I'm not a feminist btw. My previous post on this thread is literally me saying I don't identify with it bc feminism has gone to shit and it's filled with male-pleasers and they participate in the nuclear family for the most part.

 

[justjess]

just shaking my head. I am so tired of the victim card and everyone being so desperate for it. Just stop, everything is not about YOU.

Who’s the victim? Your making yourself out to be one blaming your lack of testosterone on the water supply tbh. Maybe your just deficient in your own right - more likely.

 

[Daze]

Who’s the victim?

Apparently you are

So you are saying women are controllable. We are not. Sorry

We both know i never said this but your need to imply and then turn it on yourself makes you a victim, does it not?

In what world does a weak man = a woman? How is a controllable man equal to a woman?
The question is rhetorical because i have zero desire to debate any of this.

Post all you want Jess, complain about everything. I have zero desire to engage in this because you and a few others have taken the topic and turned it into something else completely. If you want to play victim, then play alone because i am tired of it.

 

[Karlysymon]

I tried to give what you cited a quick run-through. But I didn't see how the low testosterone angle is represented. Also, one of the articles seemed really pro-MGTOW (are you for real?). So mostly what I see is a lot of anecdotal evidence, and conflating psycho-social factors with hormone levels.

From what I see, most material on this subject (“why men are no longer men”) examines it solely through social-cultural lens OR the environmental/hormonal lens. The articles I posted ofcourse fall in the former category and yet both factors combine to wrought changes that we are seeing in the male demographic. For example, we could imagine that testosterone levels in men are at pre-Industrial Revolution levels, how helpful would that be if there was mass, prolonged unemployment that affects sectors dominated by men? Because every time that happens, suicide in males skyrockets and suicide is often seen as a sign of weakness. I could try other examples but the point being “chemical castration” isn’t the one & only cause of the problem.

The quote you put down that you said stuck with you really gives me pause. It gives me pause for several reasons. The idea that the best time to marry is age 18-22 sounds crazy. Like how the hell does anyone know what a good marriageable man is when they are barely even adults? I get that the commenter is making a numbers-based argument, but the divorce rate for people aged 15-24 pretty much blows that whole thing out of the water.

@Maes17 said he got married young so I would be interested in his perspective or in corroborating that man’s opinion. True, marrying at 18-22 sounds crazy and iam pretty sure that the statistics for that age group are on the low-end and as we go forward into this decade and beyond, will further diminish. Nevertheless I think that divorce isn’t a respecter of age groups. Saying I will get married when iam 30+ and because iam older with a little bit of life experience……that won’t insulate you from divorce.

Apparently, the 65+ crowd gets divorced a lot too.

That has been attributed to Empty Nest syndrome or “We are staying married till the kids leave” mantra.

I'm not trying to minimize your thoughts or opinions. But how many women sleep with half the town? LOL.

I just thought i was hypocritical of him to say that considering he was or would have done the same in that "decade of wandering" (22-32). Its not news that men tend to have an extensive sexual history than women. He was probably referring to the hookup culture.

 

[Maes17]

I will add my own perspective here as a woman living in a very conservative country men not acting like men is not only related to feminism or modern western liberal ideology. I don't agree with Feminism but I will say that Early feminism did came as a genuine reaction towards the mistreatment women faced. Not to be disrespectful towards the men here but atleast in my country where western feminism was not mainstream until late 2010s the "Patriarchy" as the Feminists would call it is also responsible for men becoming feminized. REAL MASCULINITY is not only about how muscular you look or how much testosterone you have just as how real femininity isn't about appearance it should be the "noble" masculine qualities such as bravery, perseverance, chivalry towards women and children, self-control (control over anger, desires), resilliance, self-confidence, compassion that should define how Masculine a man is. In many so called Patriarchal societies men are pampered and spoiled by their parents and because of that as they grow up they do not learn how to be responsible and upright citizens of the society I will give an example that I have witnessed myself in my country boys are not punished for failing in exams when fathers try to be strict towards their sons the overprotective mothers get in the way or in other cases the boy is left on his own saying he will grow up after marriage many boys when they start smoking the mothers try to hide this from their fathers to protect them also boys in my country aren't taught how to dress like a gentleman or how to speak like a respectable citizen but women are criticized for every single thing if a girl uses swear words in her conversation or spends too much time on her phone she gets scolded by her parents but the sons never get scolded for the same and so when these boys end up getting married they don't take responsibility for their wife and children and keep relying on their parents they are never taught to control their anger or desires by their parents when they are children and so they end up mistreating their wives after marriage. On the other end of the spectrum we have the liberals who are trying to turn men into women and so you have all these cross dressing celebrities and gay men and men who are passive can't stand up for themselves, there should be a middle ground. Parents should be focusing on raising a Gentleman they should teach boys how to control their anger and desires that lead them to cheat in the future they should teach them moral values, impart in them qualities that would make them upright and honourable citizens of their countries but nowhere do we see this happening instead the media keeps portraying bad boys or antiheroes with criminal backgrounds as heroes and the actual good males are shown as being just Passive Beta males who can't get women. Real Masculinity should be about "The Character of the man" and same should be applied to women as well but both feminism and so called patriarchal societies have forgotten or chosen to ignore this point.

This

The thing is society now has a certain set of standards someone should meet in order to be considered such and such. It’s all politics, it’s all divisive

 

[Aero]

This thread was made to show men how their testosterone is being purposefully lowered and some ways to counter it. Yet by your own words, somehow it was Destined to be derailed.

By who? Who would get triggered by this concept? Who was most offended by this thread? Did a single man take offense? Or was it multiple feminists? As if this thread is somehow an attack on feminism.

Honestly, i had no idea man vs woman was up there with black and white, rich and poor and other divisive talking points. Yet there are at least 5 feminists here when we barely have 2 dozen active posters.

A joke is what it is. Pro man does not equal Anti woman. When are you people gonna wake up? Everything is not a competition.

Every thread gets derailed, so don't take it personally.

My main issue with these sorts of arguments, and we have seen them a million times, BTW, is that the pro-man groups always seem to make the same contradiction. Of course, I chalk most of that up to poor wording, or stuff is written in haste, but let's explore what I'm referring to.

You and other pro-man types act like men are the superior sex while also saying men need all sorts of help. That doesn't make sense, it's like if men were that superior, you wouldn't be here giving advice. It sounds like men aren't all that if all TPTB had to do was drop a little estrogen in the water supply.

It all reminds me of the pro-cop arguments floating around. Where the cops who have guns, the legal right to kill people, prosecutors, and judges who will change their diapers at will, and a union's protection. But those cops supposedly have it so bad. It's like LOL, no.

Men don't have it bad out there, especially compared to women. It's like dude, men get away with straight-up raping women, and the cops will throw their hands up in the air and be like we can't do anything about it! But if a woman gives a man a little scratch, she will immediately get arrested.

 

[Cintra]

Only in a world where woman are threatened by their human counter part was this thread destined to take another path.

Today many have been deceived into thinking sex is a race. I know most feminists are godless (at least, no clear path to God such as Christianity), but its interesting none the less how the last prophet (saw) said the majority of the anti-christ followers would be women.

When i read the arguments its easy to see the brainwashing, but like many other topics on these boards, its not a battle worth engaging in. Too many decades to break through to have any real affect. I tried with Cintra some months back.. mostly fruitless.. lesson learned..

Still amazed how telling men how to stay men triggers so many women. Sad is what it is. Welcome to the age of deception.

(My bold)

What? Where?

I agree there are chemicals in the water, and that this may be the cause of the increasing infertility problems in men (probably in women too).

 

[Aero]

From what I see, most material on this subject (“why men are no longer men”) examines it solely through social-cultural lens OR the environmental/hormonal lens. The articles I posted ofcourse fall in the former category and yet both factors combine to wrought changes that we are seeing in the male demographic. For example, we could imagine that testosterone levels in men are at pre-Industrial Revolution levels, how helpful would that be if there was mass, prolonged unemployment that affects sectors dominated by men? Because every time that happens, suicide in males skyrockets and suicide is often seen as a sign of weakness. I could try other examples but the point being “chemical castration” isn’t the one & only cause of the problem.

I've yet to be convinced that "men no longer being men" is a real problem, though.

People have been seduced by the "image" of a man. I might go so far as to say that image is a stereotype. Now, I really don't feel like looking up suicide statistics, but I think it's common sense that stereotypes cause real damage to the psyche.

I'm a little tired so hopefully, this makes sense. If men feel weak for whatever reason, and want to kill themselves, the answer isn't having them watch cowboy movies or jacking up their testosterone. The answer is men accepting their weakness and not being ashamed of it. In other words, no amount of testosterone will take away a man's inherent weaknesses.

Men and women both need to reject those stereotypes and come to terms with each other as whole things.

@Maes17 said he got married young so I would be interested in his perspective or in corroborating that man’s opinion. True, marrying at 18-22 sounds crazy and iam pretty sure that the statistics for that age group are on the low-end and as we go forward into this decade and beyond, will further diminish. Nevertheless I think that divorce isn’t a respecter of age groups. Saying I will get married when iam 30+ and because iam older with a little bit of life experience……that won’t insulate you from divorce.

I agree, but I wasn't the one generalizing.

There's no perfect age to get married. The real issue is one that's been with humanity forever. Finding the right person to marry, or even date has always been a challenge. More importantly, relationships aren't like playing the lottery. We need to stop thinking like that.

If you want to find the right mate, it's called put in the WORK. It's like, if there are no good men in your city, get off your ass and go somewhere else. Work on yourself, and work on pursuing the opposite sex the right way.

That has been attributed to Empty Nest syndrome or “We are staying married till the kids leave” mantra.

Considering how many, and how much longer children are living with their parents, what you wrote makes sense.

I just thought i was hypocritical of him to say that considering he was or would have done the same in that "decade of wandering" (22-32). Its not news that men tend to have an extensive sexual history than women. He was probably referring to the hookup culture.

Being a hypocrite doesn't make someone wrong.

The error there comes from deploying a double standard. Although the statement made might not fit the technical description of a double standard, the attitude displayed certainly implies the commenter feels like if a woman has a lot of sex she's a dirty whore, and if a man has a lot of sex he's the "mack daddy"

 

[The Agrarian]

Who’s the victim? Your making yourself out to be one blaming your lack of testosterone on the water supply tbh. Maybe your just deficient in your own right - more likely.

There is verified, scientific evidence pointing out every single thing Daze mentioned on endocrine disruptors. Not fringe sites either.

The National Institute of Health Sciences has multiple published studies linking common chemicals to testosterone decline. The producers of these chemicals are aware of the dangers and they don't care at best.

A quick search of "endocrine disruptors" online will prove our point.

 

[Daze]

(My bold)

What? Where?

I agree there are chemicals in the water, and that this may be the cause of the increasing infertility problems in men (probably in women too).

I remember the conversation, not the thread. Doesn't matter if you remember it or not as i said, it bared zero fruit.

 

[Cintra]

I remember the conversation, not the thread. Doesn't matter if you remember it or not as i said, it bared zero fruit.

Unless you tell me what the conversation was about I cant say if I still feel the same or not.

I think if working out and stuff makes men happier they should do it.
If being a computer nerd, or ballet dancer makes them happy they should feel free to be that, and not be constrained by expectations.

I do think there is something weird going on with the feminisation of men, but these are two different topics.

There are drugs in the water. Lots of them, both by accident and design.
There are here, anyway.

 

[Maes17]

From what I see, most material on this subject (“why men are no longer men”) examines it solely through social-cultural lens OR the environmental/hormonal lens. The articles I posted ofcourse fall in the former category and yet both factors combine to wrought changes that we are seeing in the male demographic. For example, we could imagine that testosterone levels in men are at pre-Industrial Revolution levels, how helpful would that be if there was mass, prolonged unemployment that affects sectors dominated by men? Because every time that happens, suicide in males skyrockets and suicide is often seen as a sign of weakness. I could try other examples but the point being “chemical castration” isn’t the one & only cause of the problem.

@Maes17 said he got married young so I would be interested in his perspective or in corroborating that man’s opinion. True, marrying at 18-22 sounds crazy and iam pretty sure that the statistics for that age group are on the low-end and as we go forward into this decade and beyond, will further diminish. Nevertheless I think that divorce isn’t a respecter of age groups. Saying I will get married when iam 30+ and because iam older with a little bit of life experience……that won’t insulate you from divorce.

That has been attributed to Empty Nest syndrome or “We are staying married till the kids leave” mantra.

I just thought i was hypocritical of him to say that considering he was or would have done the same in that "decade of wandering" (22-32). Its not news that men tend to have an extensive sexual history than women. He was probably referring to the hookup culture.

My opinion. Marry if you’re ready/willing.
We weren’t forced. We married cause we loved each other, and that was that. No social pressure or anything. Our marriage is strong to this day.

Sure we have our ups/downs.
But having a mature communication and honestly looking past those social expectations that a man should be this, a woman should be that.

I’m not worried about fitting into that macho man role. I excel at somethings better than my wife physically vice versa. We compliment those weaknesses as a team

 

[Maes17]

@Daze

Bless you for this thread.
I needed the motivation to hit the weights.

Stay consistent. Don’t forget to add deload weeks every 3 or 4 weeks

 

[justjess]

There is verified, scientific evidence pointing out every single thing Daze mentioned on endocrine disruptors. Not fringe sites either.

The National Institute of Health Sciences has multiple published studies linking common chemicals to testosterone decline. The producers of these chemicals are aware of the dangers and they don't care at best.

A quick search of "endocrine disruptors" online will prove our point.

I am not disagreeing that testosterone levels are dropping. I’m disagreeing that low testosterone levels are the cause of these issues and that a mans tesosterone level is what makes him a man to begin with. Testosterone levels naturally decline with age as well, so are old men not “real men”? What even is a “real man”? And why do you seem to think that decreased testosterone levels make someone docile, pliant, and controllable? Are “real men” not controllable? What are you basing that assumption on? “Real men” with healthy testosterone levels have been the foot soldiers of the ruling class throughout all of history - fighting, killing and dying for causes that aren’t in their own interests - that seems pretty controlled tbh.

 

[Karlysymon]

I am not disagreeing that testosterone levels are dropping. I’m disagreeing that low testosterone levels are the cause of these issues and that a mans tesosterone level is what makes him a man to begin with. Testosterone levels naturally decline with age as well, so are old men not “real men”? What even is a “real man”? And why do you seem to think that decreased testosterone levels make someone docile, pliant, and controllable? Are “real men” not controllable? What are you basing that assumption on? “Real men” with healthy testosterone levels have been the foot soldiers of the ruling class throughout all of history - fighting, killing and dying for causes that aren’t in their own interests - that seems pretty controlled tbh.

There was a documentary i watched on either NatGeo or Discovery channel where they said that as we age (past 50yrs), a hormonal inversion happens. In men, estrogen increases and in women, testosterone also increases, evidenced by a (slight) setting of the voice. Honestly, i've never seen anything else on that hormonal inversion or maybe it was just propaganda to cover for the stuff dumped in the water supply/inundation of the environment with estrogen mimicking compounds....so who knows??

 

[Karlysymon]

Repost

Obviously something affecting both sexes but posted to augment my point about the combination of enviromental/hormonal + social-cultural changes as a cause for the problem that is the subject of this thread.