Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God

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I don't need to respond to everything in your posts if responding to one thing will do. Your picture of Jesus Christ is not a Biblical one, and as soon as you deny that he is God, what's the point of discussion?
If the son of God (specifically not the son of man) doesn't know the last hour...then everything that follows from there has to match that. Ie u can't later say he is God whilst knowing he doesn't know the last hour and can only do what the Father allows.

If you say he is God in the flesh and then we're told he was the slave of God in the flesh then clearly something is wrong.

Notice so far my points are from the Bible and so far I have the bigger picture in mind?

As I keep saying the Logos/son is God's Immanence not Trancendence.

This actually is authentic Christianity.
You can easily research and discover if you didn't know already that the logos and holy spirit represent God's Immanence and the Father represents His Transcendence.

The trinitarian creed is an addition to the Bible. Fully God and coequal with the holy spirit and father as God.
Which is crazy since we also know the holy spirit proceeds from the logos and only does what the logos allows it to do.
Clearly there is a heirarchy but the trinitarian doctrine makes them equal.
 

Thunderian

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If the son of God (specifically not the son of man) doesn't know the last hour...then everything that follows from there has to match that. Ie u can't later say he is God whilst knowing he doesn't know the last hour and can only do what the Father allows.
This is actually the first time I've heard someone suggest that those passages mean that Jesus Christ isn't God. I guess when you read the Bible with an eye to find mistakes, you will convince yourself that you have found them. A Christian who is led by the Holy Spirit will remember all the other verses that have bearing on the attributes of Jesus Christ as the servant of the Father, and understand how Jesus could not know the hour of his coming, but still be God.

Here's a piece from GotQuestions that gets it right. Look up the references that are listed, and see for yourself what the Bible says.

Speaking of Jesus' Second Coming, Matthew 24:36 (and Mark 13:32) tells us, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”​
When Jesus spoke these words to the disciples, even He had no knowledge of the date and time of His return. Although Jesus was fully God (John 1:1, 14), when He became a man, He voluntarily restricted the use of certain divine attributes (Philippians 2:6–8). He did not manifest them unless directed by the Father (John 4:34; 5:30; 6:38). He demonstrated His omniscience on several occasions (cf. John 2:25; 3:13), but He voluntarily restricted that omniscience to only those things God wanted Him to know during the days of His humanity (John 15:15). Such was the case regarding the knowledge of the date and time of His return. After He was resurrected, Jesus resumed His full divine knowledge (cf. Matthew 28:18; Acts 1:7).​
Matthew 24:36 clearly states that the Father alone knows when Jesus' return will be. Verses such as John 5:30; 6:38; 8:28-29; 10:30; 12:49; 14:28, 31; and Matthew 26:39, 42 demonstrate Jesus' submission to the Father as well as their Oneness in the Godhead. Yes, they are both God. But some things Jesus had apparently chosen to "give up the rights" to be privy to during His earthly ministry (see Philippians 2:5-11). Jesus, now exalted in Heaven, surely knows all, including the timing of His Second Coming.​
 
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This is actually the first time I've heard someone suggest that those passages mean that Jesus Christ isn't God. I guess when you read the Bible with an eye to find mistakes, you will convince yourself that you have found them. A Christian who is led by the Holy Spirit will remember all the other verses that have bearing on the attributes of Jesus Christ as the servant of the Father, and understand how Jesus could not know the hour of his coming, but still be God.

Here's a piece from GotQuestions that gets it right. Look up the references that are listed, and see for yourself what the Bible says.

Speaking of Jesus' Second Coming, Matthew 24:36 (and Mark 13:32) tells us, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”​


When Jesus spoke these words to the disciples, even He had no knowledge of the date and time of His return. Although Jesus was fully God (John 1:1, 14), when He became a man, He voluntarily restricted the use of certain divine attributes (Philippians 2:6–8). He did not manifest them unless directed by the Father (John 4:34; 5:30; 6:38). He demonstrated His omniscience on several occasions (cf. John 2:25; 3:13), but He voluntarily restricted that omniscience to only those things God wanted Him to know during the days of His humanity (John 15:15). Such was the case regarding the knowledge of the date and time of His return. After He was resurrected, Jesus resumed His full divine knowledge (cf. Matthew 28:18; Acts 1:7).​


Matthew 24:36 clearly states that the Father alone knows when Jesus' return will be. Verses such as John 5:30; 6:38; 8:28-29; 10:30; 12:49; 14:28, 31; and Matthew 26:39, 42 demonstrate Jesus' submission to the Father as well as their Oneness in the Godhead. Yes, they are both God. But some things Jesus had apparently chosen to "give up the rights" to be privy to during His earthly ministry (see Philippians 2:5-11). Jesus, now exalted in Heaven, surely knows all, including the timing of His Second Coming.​

Don't play that one with me, i'm the opposite really I prefer to find things in the bible that make sense.
For me, an overall consistent truth means more.
So for example I can answer those inconstencies in your theology whilst keeping true to the book......and the only 'tweak' is that I understand God's Immanence in the Logos and how mystical truth is presented. I know because i've read this type of language elsewhere before.

For example a quote from St Augustine
God is the lover, the beloved and love.

This is a mystical truth pertaining to God's Immanence. This quote is also used by sufis, one specific sufi who's text contained this was from the punjab about 500-600 years ago and he was not even versed in christianity (i doubt he'd ever read the bible because he was very traditional) let alone St Augustine!!

What you are doing is forcing yourself to fit the bible into a specific doctrine.

A Christian who is led by the Holy Spirit will remember all the other verses that have bearing on the attributes of Jesus Christ as the servant of the Father, and understand how Jesus could not know the hour of his coming, but still be God.

it doesn't take the holy spirit to see that here, this kind of thing is only possible when we are open to God's Immanence...but again that goes back to the St Augustine quote.


In islam, the sufis experienced the logos, specifically unity with the logos and they then referred to it as Wahdat al Wujud 'unity of being'.
The theologians attacked this term because their truth was based on core theology, they called it a kufr statement which implies that a person is 'united with God'.
This is precisely what happened to Jesus. it is important to understand the mystical state and how people express themselves during/after the experience.


Back to your post.


Although Jesus was fully God (John 1:1, 14)
John 1:1
The Word was WITH GOD and the Word IS GOD.
the logical truth pertaining to God's Transcendence and the mystical truth pertaining to God's Immanence..
i tend to quote this more than you do and by only referring to one bit of it means you don't pay attention.




of certain divine attributes (Philippians 2:6–8)
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,


which mindset was this?
Matthew 6
22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

The 'eye' mentioned here is the mind's eye and this teaching really touches on our perception of God ie the mystical path.
To perceive God in all things, to be 'single minded' meaning to be one with God.
This is the mindset of Jesus.

verse 6 builds on from verse 5, it means with that 'mindset' (ie the mystical mindset, being perceptive of God's Immanence'.

did not consider equality with God
if he is God there is no 'equality with God', he simply is God. But this is what i mean by highlighting your inconsistencies. The Father is God and the Son/logos is the direct expression of the Father. In the mystical sense, it is God...yet there's clearly a heirarchy. The SON is nothing without the Father.

another major mistake you are making is in fogetting that when Jesus said he can do nothing by himself, he didnt refer to his 'flesh' aspect but his LOGOS aspect ie THE SON can do nothing by himself.
this fits perfectly with my view of the logos as God's expression and therefore empty in it's own nature and containing only God's light.
hence time and time we read that it's the FATHER acting THROUGH the Son/logos.


He did not manifest them unless directed by the Father (John 4:34; 5:30; 6:38).
meaning he isn't co equal with God in the flesh at the very least.



He demonstrated His omniscience on several occasions (cf. John 2:25; 3:13)

no, this can be divinely revealed, if he was omniscience he would know when the last hour would be too.


but He voluntarily restricted that omniscience to only those things God wanted Him to know during the days of His humanity (John 15:15).

for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
This doesn't mean he knew everything, just that he new nothing without the Father and those things he did know, he shared.




Jesus resumed His full divine knowledge (cf. Matthew 28:18; Acts 1:7).
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
where does it mention 'knowledge'?

Acts 1:7
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.


....................again, the Father has set.

The Father is the mvp here, the Son is the intermediatory.


Keep in mind the trinitarian creed also states that the Holy spirit is co-equal in Godhead with Jesus, yet in John 16 Jesus says

He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.


the holy spirit is not God.


Lastly remember this, the Son sits at the right hand of God. In psalm 110, Jesus as 'adoni/lord' sits at the right hand of ADONAI.
time and time again we see the clear distinction between God and Jesus Christ/the logos.


Here is how Paul usually introduced his epistles
2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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Watch this video
now remember, this is just the physical dimension..there are more dimensions/levels of consciousness.
yet all of this is contained within this 'Logos'

Humans back in the day had a small awareness of the world/universe so the mythos in scriptures (the Bible and the Quran) is still very small. Don't get me wrong i don't view us as irrelevant, i think 'size' is relative and just like our galaxy is a giant, if it could/does perceive itself it would think it's very small in comparison to everything else. A seed contains infinite trees, just like a life contains the potential for infinite lives.....

This is one of my fav sufi/rumi quotes

Externally the tree is the origin of the fruit; intrinsically the tree came into existence for the sake of the fruit.
If there had not been desire and hope of the fruit, how should the gardener have planted the root of the tree?
Therefore in reality the tree was born of the fruit, (even) if in appearance it (the fruit) was generated by the tree.


and Jesus did compare death/burial to a seed being planted in the ground where at the resurrection we'll be judged according to what was planted in us...but what's even deeper than that is the 'harvest'. The things that will come forth from us in the next life...the Quran describes paradise as a place of trees and fruits..but if you extend this, a fruit could symbolise an entire universe.

Really when you think of what is possible and what is out there, you would not think on a small scale. I do believe most of scripture is mythological or at least symbolic of higher things.



I do believe the logos is the universal consciousness and exactly the same concept as Vishnu. Most hindus consider vishnu to be the 'supreme Godhead' but i don't get too hung up on this because their theology is flexible, plus i have a different take on it. I think the hindu religion was an interpretation of legit metaphysics...so for me i don't take everything contained in hindu texts at face value but try to make sense of the metaphysics and nature of things.

Arjuna was the disciple of Krishna who was an incarnation of Vishnu (as in, the Logos). As one point he asked to see the true nature of krishna's spiritual reality ie Vishnu..and so krishna granted arjuna spiritual sight to see.

Basically Arjuna saw a small glimpse of the dimensions.

He saw 'thousands of stars' but he also saw limitless 'forms' of all things inc faces of beings.

At the very least, Arjuna saw something bigger than the physical planet, something 'cosmic' hence 'the cosmic vision' chapter title.

Yet even as a muslim i can admit the whole of abrahimic scripture is boring when you break it down
it's just non-stop about the israelites/jews/believers, heaven and hell, war, empires etc
it shows me that there is this Vast almost infinite physical universe and yet the force behind it all, wasn't interested in sharing that with us.


How can anyone be satisfied knowing how small our galaxy is and how big it is at the same time?
and yet the God of it all made it so we will never get to experience it....and instead we're meant to be MOVED by this messianic promise and the second coming of Jesus when it's likely most of us won't even exist then.
 

Thunderian

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I'm sorry, @AspiringSoul, I'm just not interested in the kinds of discussions that you are always trying to promote. I told you a long time ago that I don't care what other religious texts or streams of faith think. I am not in the market for a reexamination of my faith based on what a non-believer thinks. Your view of the Bible is clouded by your lack of belief in Jesus Christ, and it really is a waste of time for me to debate it with you.

This thread was created for discussion among Christians of the two kingdoms. I don't mind if you post in it, but I won't be engaging you on this.
 
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I think it's important to challenge people when they claim to follow a book I've been reading for a few yrs from a position of faith (not ego) only to find they don't pay attention to that book but follow something in their head...a church doctrine.

How can the one who sits at the right hand of God also be God?

The only context where this is doable is if you become open to God's Immanence but you can't be selective with His Immanence and apply it only to Jesus.
God is immanent everywhere and awareness of this is what being single eyed means.
So I'm keeping true to the book and rejecting a doctrine from much later.
 

Forever Light

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17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom Thou hast given me, that they may be one, as We [are].

17:22 And the glory which Thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as We are One:
17:23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved me. (Gospel of John)
 

TokiEl

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How can the one who sits at the right hand of God also be God?
Listen. Shut up and hear Him. Lol.


Luke 9 28 "Now it came to pass, about eight days after these sayings, that He took Peter, John, and James and went up on the mountain to pray. 29 As He prayed, the appearance of His face was altered, and His robe became white and glistening. 30 And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 But Peter and those with him were heavy with sleep; and when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men who stood with Him. 33 Then it happened, as they were parting from Him, that Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah”—not knowing what he said.

34 While he was saying this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were fearful as they entered the cloud. 35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!” 36 When the voice had ceased, Jesus was found alone. But they kept quiet, and told no one in those days any of the things they had seen."
 
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Just to point out my favourite explanation of father, son and holy spirit.
Think of them as water, essentially H20, but in form of liquid, solid and vapour, ice is not water, water is not vapour but yet they are the same.
father is not son, son is not spirit, they are different but same.
 
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Just to point out my favourite explanation of father, son and holy spirit.
Think of them as water, essentially H20, but in form of liquid, solid and vapour, ice is not water, water is not vapour but yet they are the same.
father is not son, son is not spirit, they are different but same.
Except that the same water cannot be liquid, vapor,and ice at the same time or all the time as you Trintarians claim about God.

Far removed is He, the Most High, from what Christians claim.
 
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Except that the same water cannot be liquid, vapor,and ice at the same time or all the time as you Trintarians claim about God.

Far removed is He, the Most High, from what Christians claim.
This example is just a glimpse of what we can understand of Trinity, i said it is my favourite, not claiming that God is water.
If we humans can know what God/Gods are or how He/they work, then i think we do not need Him / them at all.

Anyway, a religion is about Faith anyway, we believe what we believe, even if that belief is unbelievable to others.
Good day. : )
 
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