Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God

[Thunderian]

The two kingdoms have been on my mind for the last month or so, and longer than that, I've been thinking about posting a meaty thread in the Religion forum. A favourite pastor of mine, Dr. David Peacock, recently did a seven part series on the subject, and then I was reminded of it again in a couple threads. I started to do some research and the first link I went to contained this article. I couldn't write it as well as this guy could, so I'm just going to quote a piece from the end with a link.

It's long, but it ties literally everything together. Enjoy it!

The entire theme of the Holy Bible is about the battle over a Kingdom and the rightful ruler of that Kingdom. This controversy goes back long before Abraham and long before Adam's day. It began sometime after the Lord first created the heavens and the Earth. Lucifer (Satan) was the first ruler in the Kingdom of Heaven in the ancient past​

​

​

"Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."​

(Ezekiel 28:14-15 KJV)​

When he rebelled and sinned against God, unrighteousness was introduced into the physical realm and death came upon the ancient world.​

​

Remember, the story of the whole Bible from the very beginning until the end is about the spiritual battle for the Kingdom. The eventual triumphant ruler of that Kingdom, both in the literal world and over the spiritual forces, will be the KING of KINGS, the Lord Jesus Christ. The Son of the Living God of Israel, who first came as a Lamb, but is soon coming as the Lion of Judah.​

​

Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God​

 

[Damien50]

The two kingdoms have been on my mind for the last month or so, and longer than that, I've been thinking about posting a meaty thread in the Religion forum. A favourite pastor of mine, Dr. David Peacock, recently did a seven part series on the subject, and then I was reminded of it again in a couple threads. I started to do some research and the first link I went to contained this article. I couldn't write it as well as this guy could, so I'm just going to quote a piece from the end with a link.

It's long, but it ties literally everything together. Enjoy it!

The entire theme of the Holy Bible is about the battle over a Kingdom and the rightful ruler of that Kingdom. This controversy goes back long before Abraham and long before Adam's day. It began sometime after the Lord first created the heavens and the Earth. Lucifer (Satan) was the first ruler in the Kingdom of Heaven in the ancient past​

​

​

"Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."​

(Ezekiel 28:14-15 KJV)​

When he rebelled and sinned against God, unrighteousness was introduced into the physical realm and death came upon the ancient world.​

​

Remember, the story of the whole Bible from the very beginning until the end is about the spiritual battle for the Kingdom. The eventual triumphant ruler of that Kingdom, both in the literal world and over the spiritual forces, will be the KING of KINGS, the Lord Jesus Christ. The Son of the Living God of Israel, who first came as a Lamb, but is soon coming as the Lion of Judah.​

​

Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God​

I read Ruckman's view of the the two kingdom's but I rarely meet anyone that knows the difference or they mistakenly place themselves in the wrong one but I always thought it was just part of dispensationalism. Twas a good read.

 

[Thunderian]

I always thought it was just part of dispensationalism

It's all part of dispensationalism.

 

[Bacsi]

The two kingdoms have been on my mind for the last month or so, and longer than that, I've been thinking about posting a meaty thread in the Religion forum. A favourite pastor of mine, Dr. David Peacock, recently did a seven part series on the subject, and then I was reminded of it again in a couple threads. I started to do some research and the first link I went to contained this article. I couldn't write it as well as this guy could, so I'm just going to quote a piece from the end with a link.

It's long, but it ties literally everything together. Enjoy it!

The entire theme of the Holy Bible is about the battle over a Kingdom and the rightful ruler of that Kingdom. This controversy goes back long before Abraham and long before Adam's day. It began sometime after the Lord first created the heavens and the Earth. Lucifer (Satan) was the first ruler in the Kingdom of Heaven in the ancient past​

​

​

"Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."​

(Ezekiel 28:14-15 KJV)​

When he rebelled and sinned against God, unrighteousness was introduced into the physical realm and death came upon the ancient world.​

​

Remember, the story of the whole Bible from the very beginning until the end is about the spiritual battle for the Kingdom. The eventual triumphant ruler of that Kingdom, both in the literal world and over the spiritual forces, will be the KING of KINGS, the Lord Jesus Christ. The Son of the Living God of Israel, who first came as a Lamb, but is soon coming as the Lion of Judah.​

​

Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God​

All people go to heaven. Some return to earth multiple times - reincarnation

 

[Thunderian]

All people go to heaven. Some return to earth multiple times - reincarnation

Who did you used to be?

 

[Bacsi]

Who did you used to be?

I know it, but it's too personal. Having to return to earth isn't a good sign - it means you have unresolved issues in your spirit or moral lessons to be learned. Better understand and evolve - then you can remain in the spirit world or get reincarnated in a higher consciouseness world. Requires hard work in one's soul.. The earth is intended for souls on a pretty low level of moral evolution...

 

[Unknown Warrior]

From what I understand, the new heaven and new earth are one in the same. The new Jerusalem will be where Christ rules the world. It descends from heaven to earth.

 

[Thunderian]

From what I understand, the new heaven and new earth are one in the same. The new Jerusalem will be where Christ rules the world. It descends from heaven to earth.

Jesus Christ will rule during his millennial reign from Jerusalem on this earth. The new Jerusalem will be on the new earth.

Revelation 21:​

​

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.​

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.​

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.​

 

[AspiringSoul]

the universal consciousness is expressed as infinite realities ie multiplicity and duality.
There's the state of Islam which is the kingdom of heaven where you acheive unity in multiplicity but still exist as a drop in the ocean, in a state of duality ie creator and creation. So you have the circumcision and struggle against our carnal nature and you have the law of God.
Then there's the state of Ihsan which is the kingdom of God where you dissolve into the ocean and return to unity. 'self' no longer exists...only Being
Jesus AS was the universal conciousness in the flesh so it goes without saying he was teaching Ihsan. He represents the death of carnal nature ie dissolving completely into the ocean.

 

[Thunderian]

Jesus Christ is the kingdom of God.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Jesus Christ is the kingdom of God.

The Logos is the kingdom of God.
The Logos is infinitely bigger Jesus.

In Isaiah 42, 53 and many more Jesus is referred to as God's slave(abd).

So Christians say that he was a man in the flesh and God in spirit....but then when they go away from that argument they revert to saying "he was fully God in the flesh".

I don't understand how people cannot understand that God can be Immanent in a person without the person being God and certainly not when you also muddle this up with God's Transcendence ie 'fully God'.

The logos can incarnate into any being in creation anywhere...and we're not just talking about humans on earth.
But the Christians then think "Jesus is the only begotten Son" whereas it's the logos that is the 'only begotten' as in it is the direct expression of God.
One Logos but many incarnations.
Melchezedek was certainly an incarnation.

 

[Thunderian]

In Isaiah 42, 53 and many more Jesus is referred to as God's slave(abd).

References?

 

[AspiringSoul]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+42&version=OJB


The Hebrew name Ovadiah means slave of God, as does the Arabic name Abdallah. Not only that, but Jews refer in prayer to God as their master: Adonai.
http://www.jtsa.edu/what-is-a-slave
Avdi..=slave
But slave or servant is just the translated term...the point is it's used in the same context Muslims (based on the Qur'an and hadith) refer to him as Allah's slave.

I'm not saying this for point scoring btw but it's funny how Christians do not even have this term in their vocabulary for Jesus even when the most important prophecies refer to him with this term.

Also notice how in Isaiah 42 it says

2 He [Moshiach] shall not cry out, nor lift up His kol (voice), nor cause it to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall He [Moshiach] not break, and a smoking wick shall He not quench; He shall bring forth mishpat according to emes.

I have said a few times that the new song prophecy from verse.10 is about Islam and not Christianity. In it it says

13 Hashem shall go forth like a Gibbor, He shall arouse kina (zeal) like an ish milchamah; He shall shout, indeed, raise a war cry; He shall prevail against His oyevim.
14 I have me’olam held My peace; I have been quiet, and refrained Myself; now will I cry out like a travailing woman; I will lay waste and devour at once.
15 I will lay waste harim and geva’ot (hills), and dry up all their esev (vegetation); and I will make the neharot into iyim, and I will dry up agamim (pools, lakes).

The two are completely different prophecies contained in one chapter.
Now remember you think Jesus is fully God so this is a total failed theology.

Now the most important part is consistency...you can't claim one thing using the Bible if it contradicts another part of the Bible that is just as important.

I think every perspective I have of Jesus is consistent. I think God is Immanent in him via the logos..but I don't think the logos is God in the theological sense. It is God in the mystical sense.
The mystical sense is where you perceive God's immanence in all things...but the theological sense means you recognise His Transcendence above all things.
Hence the word was with God and the word is God.
When Jesus said "before Abraham was born I am" this was Jesus having the ultimate union with God in the logos. You can read about Al hallaj or ibn Arabi to see this type of language within Sufi Islam where they experienced unity of consciousness.
I AM is not the same as Yahweh saying "I am that/what I am"
The latter was a manifestation of Gods Immanence via the collective consciousness of the Israelites. so it meant God is what they make God to be. What their hearts and minds manifested of God. Remember the blessings and curses in the Torah or they make God in their own image. They remain in duality and stuck between purity and sin so God either blesses them or curses them.

Whereas the former statement made by Jesus is from the highest spiritual perspective where self no longer remains but only God, only unity.
So when he says "I am" that is God speaking not Jesus. It is God Immanent in Jesus beyond the limitations of the collective consciousness but from the universal consciousness.
Jesus became completely transparent and in that sense God was in him and his actions were God.
Jesus represents total submission /death of the carnal nature and unity with God through the logos/universal consciousness (becoming the son of God) but every person can also acheive this if they follow the path of Jesus and also become 'sons of God' and this is the only context where he died for your sins ie he led the way but you have to follow him and remain in the logos otherwise this sacrifice is n/a.

 

[Thunderian]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+42&version=OJB


The Hebrew name Ovadiah means slave of God, as does the Arabic name Abdallah. Not only that, but Jews refer in prayer to God as their master: Adonai.
http://www.jtsa.edu/what-is-a-slave
Avdi..=slave
But slave or servant is just the translated term...the point is it's used in the same context Muslims (based on the Qur'an and hadith) refer to him as Allah's slave.

I'm not saying this for point scoring btw but it's funny how Christians do not even have this term in their vocabulary for Jesus even when the most important prophecies refer to him with this term.

Also notice how in Isaiah 42 it says

2 He [Moshiach] shall not cry out, nor lift up His kol (voice), nor cause it to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall He [Moshiach] not break, and a smoking wick shall He not quench; He shall bring forth mishpat according to emes.

I have said a few times that the new song prophecy from verse.10 is about Islam and not Christianity. In it it says

13 Hashem shall go forth like a Gibbor, He shall arouse kina (zeal) like an ish milchamah; He shall shout, indeed, raise a war cry; He shall prevail against His oyevim.
14 I have me’olam held My peace; I have been quiet, and refrained Myself; now will I cry out like a travailing woman; I will lay waste and devour at once.
15 I will lay waste harim and geva’ot (hills), and dry up all their esev (vegetation); and I will make the neharot into iyim, and I will dry up agamim (pools, lakes).

The two are completely different prophecies contained in one chapter.
Now remember you think Jesus is fully God so this is a total failed theology.

Now the most important part is consistency...you can't claim one thing using the Bible if it contradicts another part of the Bible that is just as important.

I think every perspective I have of Jesus is consistent. I think God is Immanent in him via the logos..but I don't think the logos is God in the theological sense. It is God in the mystical sense.
The mystical sense is where you perceive God's immanence in all things...but the theological sense means you recognise His Transcendence above all things.
Hence the word was with God and the word is God.
When Jesus said "before Abraham was born I am" this was Jesus having the ultimate union with God in the logos. You can read about Al hallaj or ibn Arabi to see this type of language within Sufi Islam where they experienced unity of consciousness.
I AM is not the same as Yahweh saying "I am that/what I am"
The latter was a manifestation of Gods Immanence via the collective consciousness of the Israelites. so it meant God is what they make God to be. What their hearts and minds manifested of God. Remember the blessings and curses in the Torah or they make God in their own image. They remain in duality and stuck between purity and sin so God either blesses them or curses them.

Whereas the former statement made by Jesus is from the highest spiritual perspective where self no longer remains but only God, only unity.
So when he says "I am" that is God speaking not Jesus. It is God Immanent in Jesus beyond the limitations of the collective consciousness but from the universal consciousness.
Jesus became completely transparent and in that sense God was in him and his actions were God.
Jesus represents total submission /death of the carnal nature and unity with God through the logos/universal consciousness (becoming the son of God) but every person can also acheive this if they follow the path of Jesus and also become 'sons of God' and this is the only context where he died for your sins ie he led the way but you have to follow him and remain in the logos otherwise this sacrifice is n/a.

The role of Jesus Christ as a servant of God pretty well-developed in the Bible. You're not blowing anyone's mind.

Philippians 2

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

 

[AspiringSoul]

The role of Jesus Christ as a servant of God pretty well-developed in the Bible. You're not blowing anyone's mind.

Philippians 2

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

of course, 'well developed in the bible' but not particularly well developed in the mind is a typical christian. That's my whole point ie you pick and choose whatever suits you from your own scripture as opposed to really dissect it.

Instead he emptied himself
by assuming the form of a servant,
taking on the likeness of humanity.
And when he had come as a man,

so not 'fully God in the flesh' then.

Applying Godhead to the 'spirit' is not a big deal because technically all spirit (not to be confused with mind) is God, albeit God's Immanence.
our personality/ego is all an element of the mind but not Spirit. Spirit is pure consciousness free from defects, spirit is the point where God is Immanent in creation.

of course, the argument about how you pick and choose is still glaringly obvious here....since i can now point out that Jesus also didn't know when the last hour is and in the context, that was the SON/LOGOS speaking.
The Father only knows the last hour.
The SON can do nothing.
Spirit/pure consciousness is empty really, it is only animated by the power of God.

 

[Thunderian]

so not 'fully God in the flesh' then.

Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation

 

[AspiringSoul]

Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation

Yes but please ignore everything else I pointed out because that isn't relevant at all is it?

So being God he then came in the form of a man in the flesh to became his own slave and was then exalted by himself.

So you now regard him as fully God in the flesh even though he was a slave of God/himself in the flesh.


In my version I understand that the logos represents God's Immanence and not Transcendence. You haven't grasped this yet.

 

[Bacsi]

The Logos is the kingdom of God.
The Logos is infinitely bigger Jesus.

In Isaiah 42, 53 and many more Jesus is referred to as God's slave(abd).

So Christians say that he was a man in the flesh and God in spirit....but then when they go away from that argument they revert to saying "he was fully God in the flesh".

I don't understand how people cannot understand that God can be Immanent in a person without the person being God and certainly not when you also muddle this up with God's Transcendence ie 'fully God'.

The logos can incarnate into any being in creation anywhere...and we're not just talking about humans on earth.
But the Christians then think "Jesus is the only begotten Son" whereas it's the logos that is the 'only begotten' as in it is the direct expression of God.
One Logos but many incarnations.
Melchezedek was certainly an incarnation.

Very interesting . Tyank you for sharing

 

[Bacsi]

of course, 'well developed in the bible' but not particularly well developed in the mind is a typical christian. That's my whole point ie you pick and choose whatever suits you from your own scripture as opposed to really dissect it.

Instead he emptied himself
by assuming the form of a servant,
taking on the likeness of humanity.
And when he had come as a man,

so not 'fully God in the flesh' then.

Applying Godhead to the 'spirit' is not a big deal because technically all spirit (not to be confused with mind) is God, albeit God's Immanence.
our personality/ego is all an element of the mind but not Spirit. Spirit is pure consciousness free from defects, spirit is the point where God is Immanent in creation.

of course, the argument about how you pick and choose is still glaringly obvious here....since i can now point out that Jesus also didn't know when the last hour is and in the context, that was the SON/LOGOS speaking.
The Father only knows the last hour.
The SON can do nothing.
Spirit/pure consciousness is empty really, it is only animated by the power of God.

Great stuff! I'm so used to the usual Christian interpretation of the Bible that your view surprises me a lot - that it actually is based on the Bible. It's neat. It tells me how much Christianity is far away even from its own sacred text. Amazing

 

[Thunderian]

Yes but please ignore everything else I pointed out because that isn't relevant at all is it?

I don't need to respond to everything in your posts if responding to one thing will do. Your picture of Jesus Christ is not a Biblical one, and as soon as you deny that he is God, what's the point of discussion?