Killing animals for food

[Thunderian]

Can you imagine how much water, crop, ground and carbon dioxide it costs to make a kilogram of people?

We should stop having kids.

 

[shankara]

Can you imagine how much water, crop, ground and carbon dioxide it costs to make a kilogram of people?

We should stop having kids.

Well that's what Malthus said basically, and some say he's the inspiration for some of the elites' ideas about depopulation. Would be about the same as cows if humans were being raised for food. Have you seen the film "Soylent Green"?

 

[polymoog]

the idea that cows are to blame for "climate change" is ridiculous. cattle, when pastured correctly, help to rejuvenate the land with their manure, which stops desertification. when you have a healthy grassland, the soil can hold more water and stop erosion and nutrient loss.
cow manure, which that picture listed in post #21 as "waste" is so far from the truth. with the manure of the cows, many different crops can be fertilized and the milk can be fed to chickens, dogs, cats and of course humans. cows are basically walking fertilizer machines with the added bonus of milk and the periodical meat resource. the cow dung can be used as fuel and as a building resource.
sure, cows drink a lot of water, but it isnt like the water is wasted. its urinated out in the field, fertilizing the grass.

 

[shankara]

the idea that cows are to blame for "climateReply
change" is ridiculous. cattle, when pastured correctly, help to rejuvenate the land with their manure, which stops desertification. when you have a healthy grassland, the soil can hold more water and stop erosion and nutrient loss.
cow manure, which that picture listed in post #21 as "waste" is so far from the truth. with the manure of the cows, many different crops can be fertilized and the milk can be fed to chickens, dogs, cats and of course humans. cows are basically walking fertilizer machines with the added bonus of milk and the periodical meat resource. the cow dung can be used as fuel and as a building resource.
sure, cows drink a lot of water, but it isnt like the water is wasted. its urinated out in the field, fertilizing the grass.

A lot of the water use is for irrigation of pasture and growing the grains to feed cows, probably other uses I don't know of either because I strongly doubt that a cow actually directly consumes thousands upon thousands of gallons of water for every kilogram it weighs. Cow manure (and cow urine, apparently) is a useful fertilizer but so far as I understand, if cows aren't moving about then the land becomes overgrazed. If cows were to be totally grassfed and roam about then in order to produce just the meat for the USA would require the whole territory of the USA. I would imagine anyway that the waste mentioned in the infographic probably doesn't include manure as everyone knows that manure is a fertilizer.

Even if water usage and waste products weren't problems there would still be the fact that a cow has to eat a whole lot of grain to produce one kilogram of meat. 7 kilograms of very good quality protein rich grains and a lot more if it's an inferior grain. A cow (or sheep etc) is simply an inefficient mechanism of converting grains into proteins for humans. If we ate the soy directly rather than feeding it to animals we'd get the nutritional value with a whole lot less environmental destruction.

Also there is the whole thing about killing sentient beings... I mean, if you're starving and it's absolutely necessary, sure. But why bother when we simply don't need to?

 

[polymoog]

A lot of the water use is for irrigation of pasture and growing the grains to feed cows, probably other uses I don't know of either because I strongly doubt that a cow actually directly consumes thousands upon thousands of gallons of water for every kilogram it weighs. Cow manure (and cow urine, apparently) is a useful fertilizer but so far as I understand, if cows aren't moving about then the land becomes overgrazed. If cows were to be totally grassfed and roam about then in order to produce just the meat for the USA would require the whole territory of the USA. I would imagine anyway that the waste mentioned in the infographic probably doesn't include manure as everyone knows that manure is a fertilizer.

Even if water usage and waste products weren't problems there would still be the fact that a cow has to eat a whole lot of grain to produce one kilogram of meat. 7 kilograms of very good quality protein rich grains and a lot more if it's an inferior grain. A cow (or sheep etc) is simply an inefficient mechanism of converting grains into proteins for humans. If we ate the soy directly rather than feeding it to animals we'd get the nutritional value with a whole lot less environmental destruction.

Also there is the whole thing about killing sentient beings... I mean, if you're starving and it's absolutely necessary, sure. But why bother when we simply don't need to?

cows should not be eating grains. they should be eating grass (and some tree leaves from select trees). those american bison on the great plains of the US were totally healthy eating prairie grasses. conventional grain fed cows are being loaded up on glyphosphate residue. a cow drinks about 3 or 4 gallons of water/day.
a responsible farmer has many paddocks set up so that the cows eat down a small area and then are moved to the next area until they return to the original paddock where the grass has all recovered and has reabsorbed all of the nitrogen from the manure. rotational grazing is standard operating procedure when it comes to permaculture. having fruit trees in the paddocks means that the fruit trees are also being fertilized and kept clean by the cows eating the grasses from around the base, so cows (or goats) are an important part of the system.
i dont believe in that nutty carbon dioxide nonsense, but its been said that the manure sequesters a great deal of carbon. check out that vid i posted regarding that point.
humans should not consume soya, and neither should cows, for that matter, organic or not.

cows have a baby every 9 months, just like people. roughly half are males, which are more or less useless (quiet, ladies). they go right in between 2 sesame seeded buns, as do any others which the land cannot handle, so there is plenty of meat.

as friend pointed out on page 1 of this thread, plants do feel pain on some level. theres at least two documentaries that demonstrate the experiments clearly. every living creature senses/detects pain on some level which should be taken into consideration at all times.

cows have personalities and can feel pain of course, but they have no consciousness in the respect that we do. they have low intelligence and no critical thinking skills. they are not self-aware. with that in mind, id argue that killing them humanely and painlessly is an acceptable act.

 

[shankara]

cows should not be eating grains. they should be eating grass (and some tree leaves from select trees). those american bison on the great plains of the US were totally healthy eating prairie grasses. conventional grain fed cows are being loaded up on glyphosphate residue. a cow drinks about 3 or 4 gallons of water/day.
a responsible farmer has many paddocks set up so that the cows eat down a small area and then are moved to the next area until they return to the original paddock where the grass has all recovered and has reabsorbed all of the nitrogen from the manure. rotational grazing is standard operating procedure when it comes to permaculture. having fruit trees in the paddocks means that the fruit trees are also being fertilized and kept clean by the cows eating the grasses from around the base, so cows (or goats) are an important part of the system.
i dont believe in that nutty carbon dioxide nonsense, but its been said that the manure sequesters a great deal of carbon. check out that vid i posted regarding that point.
humans should not consume soya, and neither should cows, for that matter, organic or not.

cows have a baby every 9 months, just like people. roughly half are males, which are more or less useless (quiet, ladies). they go right in between 2 sesame seeded buns, as do any others which the land cannot handle, so there is plenty of meat.

as friend pointed out on page 1 of this thread, plants do feel pain on some level. theres at least two documentaries that demonstrate the experiments clearly. every living creature senses/detects pain on some level which should be taken into consideration at all times.

cows have personalities and can feel pain of course, but they have no consciousness in the respect that we do. they have low intelligence and no critical thinking skills. they are not self-aware. with that in mind, id argue that killing them humanely and painlessly is an acceptable act.

Great, grass fed cows would definitely be a better way. The problem is that people eat so much meat that there would simply not be enough land to farm cattle in that way. If people at least stopped eating meat at nearly every meal then perhaps it would be possible.

Also, it takes 4,000 gallons of water per kilo of beef and bulls are generally slaughtered at around 18 months so it's definitely not just their direct consumption of water that constitutes the total water usage.

People have been eating soy beans since forever and so far as I know the countries that eat a lot of soy don't have any higher incidence of health problems than other countries. Meat however is probably carcinogenic. Soy contains basically all the proteins we need and if we ate it directly we could stop cutting down the Amazon and generally use a lot less space to feed humanity, which might also mean we could revert to more ecologically friendly organic farming methods. Perhaps even revert to using bulls to plough the land...

I do not see any reason why animals should be slaughtered to serve as human diet when there are so many substitutes. After all, man can live without meat.”

 

[shankara]

I don't think that debating about the degree of animals' sentience is particularly valuable either. We don't really know what's going on in their minds. Anyway, where does one draw the line? A dog doesn't seem to have the capacity to think critically but few people would justify the slaughter of dogs for meat.

 

[Damien50]

cows should not be eating grains. they should be eating grass (and some tree leaves from select trees). those american bison on the great plains of the US were totally healthy eating prairie grasses. conventional grain fed cows are being loaded up on glyphosphate residue. a cow drinks about 3 or 4 gallons of water/day.
a responsible farmer has many paddocks set up so that the cows eat down a small area and then are moved to the next area until they return to the original paddock where the grass has all recovered and has reabsorbed all of the nitrogen from the manure. rotational grazing is standard operating procedure when it comes to permaculture. having fruit trees in the paddocks means that the fruit trees are also being fertilized and kept clean by the cows eating the grasses from around the base, so cows (or goats) are an important part of the system.
i dont believe in that nutty carbon dioxide nonsense, but its been said that the manure sequesters a great deal of carbon. check out that vid i posted regarding that point.
humans should not consume soya, and neither should cows, for that matter, organic or not.

cows have a baby every 9 months, just like people. roughly half are males, which are more or less useless (quiet, ladies). they go right in between 2 sesame seeded buns, as do any others which the land cannot handle, so there is plenty of meat.

as friend pointed out on page 1 of this thread, plants do feel pain on some level. theres at least two documentaries that demonstrate the experiments clearly. every living creature senses/detects pain on some level which should be taken into consideration at all times.

cows have personalities and can feel pain of course, but they have no consciousness in the respect that we do. they have low intelligence and no critical thinking skills. they are not self-aware. with that in mind, id argue that killing them humanely and painlessly is an acceptable act.

Plants consume the carbon dioxide and create carbohydrates that feed the root alone and the microbes that live within. The microbes multiply and replicate fighting off pathogens and harmful bacteria at the root zone. Low carbon dioxide results in lower yield and weakened growth. You can oxygenate your irrigation water to add more 02 to the root zone, especially in soil which tend to lack oxygen unlike hydroponic methods, to improve growth but ultimately high levels of light including UV with copious amounts of c02 is the best way to ensure strong and rapid growth in addition to adequate air circulation.

Cow manure creates super soil that over years will balance itself out and with the addition of enhanced carbon levels you have a sustainable method of farming especially if there are natural or man made water sources with fish in them.

The natural level of c02 in most homes is 400ppm whereas plants with adequate sunlight can flourish in up to 1200ppms of c02 with increased growth rates, higher yield, and stronger microbial activity all around. When I grow anything hydroponics I add c02 injection and microbes because of the increases in growth and the microbes acting as inoculants to the root zone ensuring proper nutrition is given to the plant and other organisms in the soil plus protecting the plant against infestation and drought.

If anything, the chemicals used on crops and the hormones given to animals are the detriment to their ecology and to our health overall.

 

[Damien50]

Great, grass fed cows would definitely be a better way. The problem is that people eat so much meat that there would simply not be enough land to farm cattle in that way. If people at least stopped eating meat at nearly every meal then perhaps it would be possible.

Also, it takes 4,000 gallons of water per kilo of beef and bulls are generally slaughtered at around 18 months so it's definitely not just their direct consumption of water that constitutes the total water usage.

People have been eating soy beans since forever and so far as I know the countries that eat a lot of soy don't have any higher incidence of health problems than other countries. Meat however is probably carcinogenic. Soy contains basically all the proteins we need and if we ate it directly we could stop cutting down the Amazon and generally use a lot less space to feed humanity, which might also mean we could revert to more ecologically friendly organic farming methods. Perhaps even revert to using bulls to plough the land...

Part of the reason we eat so much meat is because everything the cows eat is low quality which results in low quality manure devoid of essential nutrients good for soil. It creates a cycle of low quality food that lacks nutrition. Pants with high brix levels are incredibly nutritious and filling but you have to grow them. Animals should eat plants with high brix levels to eat less and receive more nutrition. We are so far removed from agriculture that we create diets and name certain foods as super foods when if we simply grew and harvested within our homes many of our diseases and issues would disappear without the need for these diets. US commercial agriculture is a joke that the cannabis industry has found so hilarious they've taken to doing the same things and ultimately commercial food or medicine is harvested too early, lacks quality, and doesn't aid in preventing sickness or increasing health.

Grow your own food, raise your own meat, grow your own medicine and we won't be victims to the medical/agricultural machines.

 

[Lurker]

few people would justify the slaughter of dogs for meat.

Few in western culture, but really dogs are just another animal. There is no difference between eating dogs and cows or even fish.

 

[shankara]

Few in western culture, but really dogs are just another animal. There is no difference between eating dogs and cows or even fish.

Sure, they're all sentient beings. The example of a dog is just to ask where does one draw the line...? For me it would be all sentient beings, excluding plants which don't even have a nervous system and are of orders of magnitude less complex than animals or even fish.

I would add that something being acceptable in some culture or another doesn't constitute an argument as to whether it is really ethical.

 

[Lurker]

The example of a dog is just to ask where does one draw the line

If I must draw a line, higher level primates would be it. If you lock a lower level primate in a cage and give it the key, it will play with it. However, an orangutan, for example, will try to use it. That is sentience. I could add a few other animals, but what does it matter? I do not find it unethical to eat animals. How you raise/harvest the animal is where ethics come into play.

 

[polymoog]

Great, grass fed cows would definitely be a better way. The problem is that people eat so much meat that there would simply not be enough land to farm cattle in that way. If people at least stopped eating meat at nearly every meal then perhaps it would be possible.

although i think people are eating too much food in general, there would be enough meat. not everyone has cows-- plenty of chickens can be raised to broiler size very quickly in a smaller area that still allows for them to be free range. chickens have fantastic manure and eat grass and weeds. bottom line is that animals are an integral part of a healthy ecosystem.

People have been eating soy beans since forever and so far as I know the countries that eat a lot of soy don't have any higher incidence of health problems than other countries. Meat however is probably carcinogenic. Soy contains basically all the proteins we need and if we ate it directly we could stop cutting down the Amazon and generally use a lot less space to feed humanity, which might also mean we could revert to more ecologically friendly organic farming methods. Perhaps even revert to using bulls to plough the land...

the soy is garbage. i know they eat it in asia, but the japanese are eating fermented soy, and they dont eat a great deal of it. they dont have the high incidence of health problems for completely different reasons that has no bearing on soy consumption. the only thing soy is good for is as a nitrogen fixing cover crop.
if you really want to eat some high quality protein, you ought to look into growing spirulina instead.

 

[shankara]

although i think people are eating too much food in general, there would be enough meat. not everyone has cows-- plenty of chickens can be raised to broiler size very quickly in a smaller area that still allows for them to be free range. chickens have fantastic manure and eat grass and weeds. bottom line is that animals are an integral part of a healthy ecosystem.




the soy is garbage. i know they eat it in asia, but the japanese are eating fermented soy, and they dont eat a great deal of it. they dont have the high incidence of health problems for completely different reasons that has no bearing on soy consumption. the only thing soy is good for is as a nitrogen fixing cover crop.
if you really want to eat some high quality protein, you ought to look into growing spirulina instead.

Maybe there is some gluttony going on but when you consider that it takes 14 calories of grains to make one calorie of beef... Simply inefficient. Sure, there will be animals in a healthy ecosystem but maybe living free.

I don't think that soy is really so bad, it's just protein. You mentioned spirulina, there are a lot of other potential plant sources of protein.

"The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men."

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”

 

[polymoog]

Maybe there is some gluttony going on but when you consider that it takes 14 calories of grains to make one calorie of beef... Simply inefficient. Sure, there will be animals in a healthy ecosystem but maybe living free.

I don't think that soy is really so bad, it's just protein. You mentioned spirulina, there are a lot of other potential plant sources of protein.

any ecosystem must be in balance. if the numbers of animals exceed their limits, they have to be culled naturally (wolves, disease, etc.) or artificially (slaughter). plant protein will never provide animal fat or bone broth. saturated fat is needed-- full fat raw milk and butter components will never be grown from a plant. nor will eggs, the other true superfood. one doesnt need a lot of it, but we need it. in a perfect world, we shouldnt need to have to eat animal products, but its not an ideal world. either god wants us to learn compassionate killing, or if you believe in intervention theory, we were genetically engineered to require some of these nutrients which does not harmoniously fit with eating animal products.

the soy is horrible for a lot of reasons. id go into it, but it doesnt belong in this thread.

 

[shankara]

any ecosystem must be in balance. if the numbers of animals exceed their limits, they have to be culled naturally (wolves, disease, etc.) or artificially (slaughter). plant protein will never provide animal fat or bone broth. saturated fat is needed-- full fat raw milk and butter components will never be grown from a plant. nor will eggs, the other true superfood. one doesnt need a lot of it, but we need it. in a perfect world, we shouldnt need to have to eat animal products, but its not an ideal world. either god wants us to learn compassionate killing, or if you believe in intervention theory, we were genetically engineered to require some of these nutrients which does not harmoniously fit with eating animal products.

the soy is horrible for a lot of reasons. id go into it, but it doesnt belong in this thread.

Yeah I have no problem with milk, eggs not so sure. Cows can be kept without slaughtering them, the bulls can be used to plough the land.

Of course in nature there are predators and animals die, but there's something too artificial about raising animals for the slaughter. At least in nature they can roam about and I imagine they would probably be generally happier even if not so well fed. Unfortunately there's literally not enough space to raise animals for food like that, if all cows were grass fed and wandering the whole surface of the USA would be required to meat the US demand for beef.

The good health of many vegetarians and vegans testifies to the fact that meat proteins are not necessary.

 

[ChristianTruther007]

I eat animals because the Bible gives humans dominion over all beasts. Animals are for my use as I deem fit and they do not have souls. Outside of slaughtering animals for food, I do not advocate mindless torturing of animals. And I do not have problems with pets.

The fact that animals have more rights than unborn babies who are murdered in their mothers wombs speak to the fact that we are in a degenerate Society.

Genesis 1:26

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”
King James Version (KJV)

 

[shankara]

I eat animals because the Bible gives humans dominion over all beasts. Animals are for my use as I deem fit and they do not have souls. Outside of slaughtering animals for food, I do not advocate mindless torturing of animals. And I do not have problems with pets.

The fact that animals have more rights than unborn babies who are murdered in their mothers wombs speak to the fact that we are in a degenerate Society.

Genesis 1:26

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”
King James Version (KJV)

People used the Bible to justify slavery as well... I understand what you're saying about abortion being wrong but it's possible to be a vegetarian without being pro-abortion

 

[ChristianTruther007]

People used the Bible to justify slavery as well... I understand what you're saying about abortion being wrong but it's possible to be a vegetarian without being pro-abortion

Any reasonably intelligent person who's actually read the Bible cover to cover a few times would not walk away with the Bible justifying slavery. It simply does not do so. The "slaves" of the Bible were more like indentured servants as they had many rights compared to US, slaves who were treated as chattel worse than animals often times, and had no rights to redress grievances. U.S slaves could be killed without impunity. The Bible actually proposes rules of protection for servants, or what you consider slaves. The Bible also says that all servants should go free during the Year of Jubilee. There are many verses in the Bible that provide rights for slaves. If you read the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy you would see that.

Deuteronomy 23:15

“Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee:”

Exodus 21:27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

Deuteronomy 24:14 Thou shalt not oppress an hired servant that is poor and needy, whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in thy land within thy gates:

 

[Writersmom]

I do. I have to my body craves protein like you wouldn't believe. I really can't handle eating carbs at all. I've been like this for as long as I remember. It's not that I don't enjoy carbs they just leave me feeling really crappy, even most fruits are too much for my system. I'm also incredibly anemic, so that doesn't help. I know you can get iron though vegetables, and I do, it just isn't enough.