Judge Jeanine: Trump is fulfilling End Times prophecy!

TempestOfTempo

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The definition of Gog and Magog is the same in every translation. I hate to break it to you, but this is a clear sign that what you know about translations and the Bible is based on hearsay and you just have no real way to answer the question. Clearly, a subject that you need to research more. A different Bible version won't give you a different definition of God and Magog. What you can do if you don't believe me is search Gog and Magog separately in BibleGateway.com and it will pull up all the verses that reference these terms. Then you could use BibleGateway to see how they differ between different versions.

The reasons Muslims think the Bible is corrupt has nothing to do with the present number of translations that exist either considering there was no such thing when the accusation was first made, even though this is often used for the sake of the wider audience who does not know about the actual Muslim teaching that we are translating a corrupt text into different versions. However, the versions themselves do not change much in the process. A different definition of Gog and Magog is not what causes a debate over translations within the Christian community either.

Overall, I think the whole discussion of Gog and Magog is being exaggerated. Christian Zionists aren't going to pull the trigger and start wars because they think this is God's will, but a lot of them are somewhat superstitious about it and behave in a way that demonstrates some degree of powerlessness because of their view towards prophecy. It is like there is nothing they can do about it or like it is some kind of reality TV show they are watching as viewers.

So there are a lot of things that are happening in the news according to the group of Christian Zionists. The "Zionists" on this board are nowhere near the extreme that I have seen, but still it would be an exaggeration to say that they wanted all the death and destruction that prophecy describes in order for prophecy to be fulfilled.

The main issue they have is assigning identities to the characters in prophecy that will feel right to them and in many cases maintain some social acceptability. So the beast in Revelation is often the one who is going to attack the Jews. This would cause them to root for the Jews. Then, some would say they are trying to encourage the fulfillment of prophecy because of how they believe in contrast to this view, but that isn't really what is happening. Zionists and anti-Zionists are capable of presenting a view containing bias, which is important to remember because solid research should be void of bias. So Zionists generally think the Jews are going to be persecuted by the beast and will not be the persecutor. I think they will be the persecutor.

Then, a major problem is that there is too great of a dependence on prophecy to explain everything that is happening in a world, and a much more limited research of what is happening in the world. This often creates a superstitious perspective that is centered on prophecy but is still not going to initiate wars to provoke the fulfillment. This is still something I haven't seen much of on this forum. The Christian Zionists here have all been very pleasant and gentle exhibiting a strong foundation in the teachings of Christ.

So there is a lot of exaggeration about this subject. Even in the title of the thread, "Trump is fulfilling end times prophecy". This is just because Christians use prophecy as a map. This statement is the same thing as saying "you are here" like the maps in the mall do. It has nothing to do with encouraging ways to provoke the fulfillment of prophecy. Especially in regard to Trump. This is becoming all confused bringing in Trump as a second Cyrus. There is no mention of a Cyrus-like character in the book of Revelation.

So clearly the study of prophecy for most Zionists is not very good, and I do think this results in what the Bible calls the apostacy. Still, all statements like this mean is that there are a lot of people with a strong interest in studying prophecy. It doesn't really mean anything more than that. Most of the real prophecy statements that are bringing complaint like the article praising Bush are part of the Jewish influence as this was produced by the Jewish community. The church is influenced by this in as much as they are fascinated with the celebrity of Jews. Still, we don't have a Talmud that would support the selfishness and deceit that Jewish Zionists support.

We just have the Bible, and it doesn't teach that we should initiate the fulfillment of prophecy with our actions. We believe people are doing this because of their rejection of Christ and trying to gauge how these actions fit on a timeline given by prophecy in the Bible. This includes Christian Zionists and people like myself. That is why when we debate this subject amongst ourselves, we argue over what the prophecy says in the scriptures, and not over whether it is morally right to initiate war considering what the prophecy says. I have never seen this subject discussed and we are pretty evenly split on the subject of Israel.

We discuss the subject as observers because a primary Christian teaching is to be in the world, but not of it. That is really the extent that a Christian can be held responsible. The rest of the complaint would be directed at a Jewish Zionist who has the permission to do much more than this according to the Talmud and additional Rabbinic teachings.
First Thundo asks for that which he receives only to deny it, he then asks for authentication.....
Then he ignores that authentication when its presented to him and changes the subject....
Now the goalposts have shifted to yet another incorrect contention on yalls part, this time in reference to Gog and Magog.....

You come across as someone who genuinely thinks for yourself and likely isn't a subscriber to these radical, apocalyptic CZ teachings. However, this revolving door of excuses in order to keep from admitting that its a huge problem within your own movement is getting embarrassing. If yall really are against this sort of rhetoric and action, you can't simply keep changing the subject or denying the obvious when its plain as day...... In this instance, it doesn't matter what you believe about Gog and Magog or what the various biblical scriptures say being as both the scripture and its interpretations vary widely and wildly......
For example:
The Crown of England (Protestant & Episcopalian?), which is supposedly pledged to the Church of England and therefore, the Anglican Communion, has a number of sources and bibles with which to draw from. This may contribute to the vague, convoluted definitions and ideals representative of their faith as it's not only their "holy" definitions of Gog and Magog (among other areas of theological contentions) which contradict themselves, but their "popular" interpretations as well........
"They are Gog and Magog, the traditional guardians of the City of London"
and,
"Gog and Magog, or sometimes Gogmagog and Corineus, are descended from mythical pagan giants and their origins lie in mediaeval legends of the early British Kings."
in addition to,
"The custom of carrying effigies and images at festivals is sometimes explained as an echo of the days when the same festival would have revolved around a human sacrifice. The victim was replaced with a symbolic representation, and as the old rites were incorporated into the Church the sacrificial effigy became the saint who had made the sacrifice."
as well as,
""Corineus and Gogmagog were two brave giants who richly valued their honour and exerted their whole strength and force in the defence of their liberty and country; so the City of London, by placing these, their representatives in their Guildhall, emblematically declare, that they will, like mighty giants defend the honour of their country and liberties of this their City"
Source: https://lordmayorsshow.london/history/gog-and-magog.html
 

Thunderian

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First Thundo asks for that which he receives only to deny it, he then asks for authentication.....
Then he ignores that authentication when its presented to him and changes the subject....
Now the goalposts have shifted to yet another incorrect contention on yalls part, this time in reference to Gog and Magog.....
The reason I asked what Biblical Gog and Magog are is to see if you even knew what it is we're talking about.

You don't.
 

TempestOfTempo

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The reason I asked what Biblical Gog and Magog are is to see if you even knew what it is we're talking about.

You don't.
I know their meaning in Islamic context and I am aware of at least part of their Christian interpretations as well. As I just listed, there are varying definitions and interpretations of them in Christianity as well as differing variations as to how those multiple definitions/interpretations are applied.

You continue to ask for answers and when presented with answers and evidence, you ignore it or change the subject so I guess your answers still provided an insight into where you are at on the subject, regardless of weather that was your intent or not lol
 

Thunderian

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I know their meaning in Islamic context
Who cares? We're talking about Bible prophecy, and nothing you say about Gog and Magog gives any indication you know what the Bible says about them. I'm not changing the subject or moving goalposts, you just don't know anything about the subject we're supposedly discussing.
 

TempestOfTempo

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You just
keep
changing the goalposts lol
Im fully aware of what they represent to the Christian president whom was quoted regarding them. You know, the quote you repeatedly denied ever being made, even though it was a well documented incident at the time. The one that once you received factual, cited sourcing on, you just conveniently said "ok well hes an idiot. But that doesn't prove there are any serious players or action regarding apocalyptic, end times prophesies being manipulated by CZs to foment a final conflict."
 

TempestOfTempo

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Then explain what they mean to Bush, if you can.
What?! Rather than deal with the substance of our posts, you just KEEP changing the goal posts lol With this line of "reasoning" your deflections can continue almost indefinitely.

My previous posts clearly stated there is a difference in these "meanings" and "interpretations" so Bush's position would clearly be an amalgamation of the two, leaning towards whichever definition was advantageous to him at the time. What he actually "means" is anyone's guess.
 

Thunderian

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What?! Rather than deal with the substance of our posts, you just KEEP changing the goal posts lol With this line of "reasoning" your deflections can continue almost indefinitely.

My previous posts clearly stated there is a difference in these "meanings" and "interpretations" so Bush's position would clearly be an amalgamation of the two, leaning towards whichever definition was advantageous to him at the time. What he actually "means" is anyone's guess.
The substance of your posts is that Christian Zionists are trying to start war in the middle east to bring about prophecies that are in the Bible. As proof of this you offer a statement from George Bush about Gog and Magog. A statement you can't explain.

You. Don't. Have. A. Clue.
 

TempestOfTempo

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The substance of your posts is that Christian Zionists are trying to start war in the middle east to bring about prophecies that are in the Bible. As proof of this you offer a statement from George Bush about Gog and Magog. A statement you can't explain.

You. Don't. Have. A. Clue.
Wrong.
My contention has been that influential members of the CZ movement are pushing for an "end times" apocalyptic confrontation..... out of personal conviction or just for a payofff.... who knows. But their rhetoric and actions (as have been clearly documented here) are not even debatable, they are historical fact.

I cant explain his statement because we dont know..... was he referring to the actual, varied and compromised Christian definition of the terms, or he and his fathers self-appointed titles? Which do YOU think he was referring to when he made the quote which you spent so much effort to deny after asking for, then proceeded to attempt to minimize?
 

Karlysymon

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Also worth mentioning ...Saddam had his own messiah complex and believed he was the reincarnation of Nebuchadnezzar..
Could this imply that he was toppled because he intended to do what "he did" circa 587 BC?
 

Bacsi

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I've heard exactly same statements about Obama, and about Bush etc. I think every president is a prophecy fulfiller then
 

Thunderian

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I cant explain his statement because we dont know
So how can you use it as proof that Christian Zionists are using prophecy as an excuse to start wars?

I admit I was wrong to think that Bush didn't say that quote, but if you can't explain what he meant by it, who cares if he said it or not?

This is ridiculous. You don't know the Bible enough to debate the prophecies it contains, and you don't know end times Christians enough to know what they believe. You don't accept the things I'm telling you that end times Christians (of which I am one) actually believe about Bible prophecy, and like most people who ignorantly attack Christian Zionists, you give inordinate and undeserved place to John Hagee as a representative of Christian Zionists as a group, and you won't hear any different. How is this conversation in any way rewarding for anyone?
 

Awoken2

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So in summary then.

Religion.

It just keeps people focussed on the past to stop them focussing on the future.

The perfect distraction, and it always has been, for the very worst wrong doings of man.
 

TempestOfTempo

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So how can you use it as proof that Christian Zionists are using prophecy as an excuse to start wars?

I admit I was wrong to think that Bush didn't say that quote, but if you can't explain what he meant by it, who cares if he said it or not?

This is ridiculous. You don't know the Bible enough to debate the prophecies it contains, and you don't know end times Christians enough to know what they believe. You don't accept the things I'm telling you that end times Christians (of which I am one) actually believe about Bible prophecy, and like most people who ignorantly attack Christian Zionists, you give inordinate and undeserved place to John Hagee as a representative of Christian Zionists as a group, and you won't hear any different. How is this conversation in any way rewarding for anyone?
- You have seen unquestionable evidence that there are influential members of the CZ movement "using prophecy as an excuse to start wars".
- What Bush "means" is irrelevant, its his words backed up by actions that count in this equation.
- My biblical knowledge isnt germane to the topic, I am taking these people at THEIR word and observing how its backed up with THEIR OWN deeds.
- In this instance, it doesnt matter what you personally believe Thundo, I am addressing the MILLIONS of people who follow these end-times charlatans and the ensuing havoc created by their blind obedience. I have already stated that you seem to be cut from a different cloth than many in this movement, so Im addressing those who ARE actively trying to foment and end-times, apocalyptic crisis.
- Its going to be difficult for critically thinking people to accept your notion that Hagee & co. are some sort of fringe operatives or bit players. Especially being as, you know, they were INVITED TO SPEAK AT THE EMBASSY MOVING CEREMONY.
- I dont know if Id label this discussion as "rewarding", but there are mistruths being propagated, and myself and others are addressing them in this public forum.
 

Thunderian

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- In this instance, it doesnt matter what you personally believe Thundo, I am addressing the MILLIONS of people who follow these end-times charlatans and the ensuing havoc created by their blind obedience. I have already stated that you seem to be cut from a different cloth than many in this movement, so Im addressing those who ARE actively trying to foment and end-times, apocalyptic crisis.
How an I be cut from a different cloth when I am a Christian Zionist and believes in end times prophecies? How far could my position possibly be from the millions of Christians who you accuse of starting wars?

Are you familiar with the Islamic prophecies about the Mahdi?
 

TempestOfTempo

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How an I be cut from a different cloth when I am a Christian Zionist and believes in end times prophecies? How far could my position possibly be from the millions of Christians who you accuse of starting wars?

Are you familiar with the Islamic prophecies about the Mahdi?
Well Im just taking you at your word that you dont believe in starting wars of aggression in hopes of advancing an apocalyptic vision which cannot be advanced by man, regardless of his intentions or machinations (its all in Gods plan, in Gods time). Between what you just posted and have been arguing on here, I may have been mistaken.

Yes I am familiar with those prophesies. How are they germane to our discussion?
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Thunderian

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Well Im just taking you at your word that you dont believe in starting wars of aggression in hopes of advancing an apocalyptic vision which cannot be advanced by man, regardless of his intentions or machinations (its all in Gods plan, in Gods time). Between what you just posted and have been arguing on here, I may have been mistaken.
I support Israel and I admit it. Do you think I would hide it if I was cheering on world war three? Think about it.

Yes I am familiar with those prophesies. How are they germane to our discussion?
You brought up Islamic references to Gog and Magog. Do you believe the prophecies about the Mahdi? There is far more evidence that Islam is actually the faith that wants a massive and apocalyptic war, and not Christianity, and this is based on their own belief in prophecies about the Mahdi. Should we get into that?
 

DesertRose

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You brought up Islamic references to Gog and Magog. Do you believe the prophecies about the Mahdi? There is far more evidence that Islam is actually the faith that wants a massive and apocalyptic war, and not Christianity, and this is based on their own belief in prophecies about the Mahdi. Should we get into that?
Sure!
Methinks thunderian that thou doth not knoweth what thy speaketh about (again).
End times is a time of trials and tribulations for Muslims (Fitnah) in Arabic.

Narrated Zainab bint Jahsh:

The Prophet (ﷺ) got up from his sleep with a flushed red face and said, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah. Woe to the Arabs, from the Great evil that is nearly approaching them. Today a gap has been made in the wall of Gog and Magog like this." (Sufyan illustrated by this forming the number 90 or 100 with his fingers.) It was asked, "Shall we be destroyed though there are righteous people among us?" The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Yes, if evil increased."

PS This topic veers from the OP and is best discussed on the appropriate forum.May I suggest Red's Prophetic expectations thread.

Video below Caption:
Frank Schaeffer, former Evangelical explains how white evangelicals in the United States put faith before country, before human rights, in making a "Devil's Bargain" to support Donald Trump despite his less than Christian actions, for a handful of policy and power goals, namely moving the United States embassy into deputed Jerusalem, all of this to bring about the end of days foretold in the book of Revelations, Armageddon!
 
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Thunderian

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Methinks thunderian that thou doth not knoweth what thy speaketh about (again).
End times is a time of trials and tribulations for Muslims (Fitnah) in Arabic.
I don't know. Using ignorant misunderstanding of the Quran and hadith, plus some pretty shocking quotes from Ahmadinejad and a couple of imams, I can make at least as convincing a case that Muslims are just as bloodthirsty as this thread is accusing Christians of being.
 
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