Joshua Harris Kissed Jesus Goodbye

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#21
I actually had a copy of this book as a kid, and I’m not entirely sure why I did, because I’m Shinto. We don’t really go in for that sort of thing. I did grow up in an area with a lot of evangelical churches, so it’s likely that I got one as some promotional thing from one of them but I didn’t really look at it until I was in college, and I found it... weird. It taught some of the same stuff I was (sex is how you make more humans, and that you should be prepared to deal with that potential outcome, that it’s best to only do it if you’re married), but a lot of it was off to me. I wouldn’t want my dad that involved in picking out my husband- I know a lot of cultures do have arranged marriages that seem to work out okay, but I wouldn’t want my dad that involved. It reminds me of the Duggar family, who I wouldn’t trust any further than I could throw all what, 22 of them at once? Remind me to tell you all my theory on them some time.

I also read an article in the newspaper a few months ago about how badly the religious purity movement screwed people up, especially people who were assaulted, because of the focus it had on “not causing people to think sexual thoughts.” One lady had been molested by a relative and when she attempted to get help from a priest at the church he told her something along the lines of “it’s your fault for being too sexy.” What the hell? If I find the article again I’ll link it.

I don’t know, maybe I’m just a heathen and therefore don’t get it, but I’m suspicious of anything that tries to control behavior and something as instinctual as picking the person you marry to that extent, and anything that would try to excuse creepy perverts by blaming the person who was attacked.
 





Lisa

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#22
Another one leaving..

Hillsong worship leader Marty Sampson announced on Instagram Friday that he's "genuinely losing his faith"—and he's not upset about it.

Sampson was one of Hillsong United's original worship leaders and wrote and co-wrote hundreds of praise songs including hits like "Now that You're Near," "King of Majesty," "O Praise the Name," "For Who You Are" and "Open Heaven."

In his post—which has since been deleted, along with the rest of the artist's Instagram posts—he included a picture of what appears to be Samson bringing down the pillars of the Philistine temple in Judges 16. He writes that the more he thinks about it, the more Christianity seems just like every other religion, and he doesn't want any part of it anymore:

"Christians can be some of the most [judgmental] people on the planet—they can also be some of the most beautiful and loving people ... but it's not for me. I am not in any more. I want genuine truth. Not the 'I just believe it' kind of truth. Science keeps piercing the truth of every religion. Lots of things help people change their lives, not just one version of God."
https://www.charismanews.com/us/775...nces-he-wants-no-part-in-christianity-anymore
 





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#23
Another one leaving..

Hillsong worship leader Marty Sampson announced on Instagram Friday that he's "genuinely losing his faith"—and he's not upset about it.

Sampson was one of Hillsong United's original worship leaders and wrote and co-wrote hundreds of praise songs including hits like "Now that You're Near," "King of Majesty," "O Praise the Name," "For Who You Are" and "Open Heaven."

In his post—which has since been deleted, along with the rest of the artist's Instagram posts—he included a picture of what appears to be Samson bringing down the pillars of the Philistine temple in Judges 16. He writes that the more he thinks about it, the more Christianity seems just like every other religion, and he doesn't want any part of it anymore:

"Christians can be some of the most [judgmental] people on the planet—they can also be some of the most beautiful and loving people ... but it's not for me. I am not in any more. I want genuine truth. Not the 'I just believe it' kind of truth. Science keeps piercing the truth of every religion. Lots of things help people change their lives, not just one version of God."
https://www.charismanews.com/us/775...nces-he-wants-no-part-in-christianity-anymore
It seems like he should have been growing in depth and learning instead of concentrating on “feel good” music. Real science supports a Biblical world view, but if people don’t do their homework and develop their own scientific understanding, it is easy to be brow-beaten into unbelief.
 





Lisa

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#24
It seems like he should have been growing in depth and learning instead of concentrating on “feel good” music. Real science supports a Biblical world view, but if people don’t do their homework and develop their own scientific understanding, it is easy to be brow-beaten into unbelief.
I thought we walk by faith not sight, so how can someone develop a scientific understanding?

It does seem easy anymore to fall away from the faith...probably why we should be on the alert, so we don’t.
 





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#25
Another one leaving..

Hillsong worship leader Marty Sampson announced on Instagram Friday that he's "genuinely losing his faith"—and he's not upset about it.

Sampson was one of Hillsong United's original worship leaders and wrote and co-wrote hundreds of praise songs including hits like "Now that You're Near," "King of Majesty," "O Praise the Name," "For Who You Are" and "Open Heaven."

In his post—which has since been deleted, along with the rest of the artist's Instagram posts—he included a picture of what appears to be Samson bringing down the pillars of the Philistine temple in Judges 16. He writes that the more he thinks about it, the more Christianity seems just like every other religion, and he doesn't want any part of it anymore:

"Christians can be some of the most [judgmental] people on the planet—they can also be some of the most beautiful and loving people ... but it's not for me. I am not in any more. I want genuine truth. Not the 'I just believe it' kind of truth. Science keeps piercing the truth of every religion. Lots of things help people change their lives, not just one version of God."
https://www.charismanews.com/us/775...nces-he-wants-no-part-in-christianity-anymore
Hillsong is NARly, plus hushed up the pedo founder, so I'm not surprised. Also the parable of the sower and the seed could fit here.

Sad thing that he's absolutely right that Christians can be some of the most judgmental people on the planet. That's what I'm going to strive not to be as one who has judged and one who has been judged unfairly and without mercy. If Christians don't have love and mercy, real love for the unlovely, then what good is it anyway? Anyone loves people who love them. Everyone does that. It takes supernatural grace and power to love enemies, to love once betrayed (have massive experience here), and to love even yourself enough to take care of yourself with healthy habits and boundaries.

I'm sorry Marty saw mostly fake love and possibly the beautiful side of evil (as Johanna Michaelsen calls it) in his NAR career. :-(
 





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#26
I thought we walk by faith not sight, so how can someone develop a scientific understanding?

It does seem easy anymore to fall away from the faith...probably why we should be on the alert, so we don’t.
Your brain can be your friend or your enemy Lisa. The Massai warriors are noted for their bravery as lion hunters, and one of the things they did was to literally run at the lions.

These days, materialism, Evolution, Aliens, evolutionary psychology and Big Bang cosmology represent something of the “spirit of the age”. For this reason, I am personally glad that I studied Evolution to degree level and was able to ultimately understand it as a “narrative” rather than real empirical science.

I don’t believe truth has anything to fear from examination. On the other hand, the Bible is written by a whole cross section of people, and the key unifying experience is faith, as the famous chapter in Hebrews draws out.
 





Lisa

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#27
Hillsong is NARly, plus hushed up the pedo founder, so I'm not surprised. Also the parable of the sower and the seed could fit here.

Sad thing that he's absolutely right that Christians can be some of the most judgmental people on the planet. That's what I'm going to strive not to be as one who has judged and one who has been judged unfairly and without mercy. If Christians don't have love and mercy, real love for the unlovely, then what good is it anyway? Anyone loves people who love them. Everyone does that. It takes supernatural grace and power to love enemies, to love once betrayed (have massive experience here), and to love even yourself enough to take care of yourself with healthy habits and boundaries.

I'm sorry Marty saw mostly fake love and possibly the beautiful side of evil (as Johanna Michaelsen calls it) in his NAR career. :-(
Ya it helps to go to a Biblically sound church too.
 





Lisa

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#28
Your brain can be your friend or your enemy Lisa. The Massai warriors are noted for their bravery as lion hunters, and one of the things they did was to literally run at the lions.

These days, materialism, Evolution, Aliens, evolutionary psychology and Big Bang cosmology represent something of the “spirit of the age”. For this reason, I am personally glad that I studied Evolution to degree level and was able to ultimately understand it as a “narrative” rather than real empirical science.

I don’t believe truth has anything to fear from examination. On the other hand, the Bible is written by a whole cross section of people, and the key unifying experience is faith, as the famous chapter in Hebrews draws out.
So how can one develop a scientific understanding? I don’t think you answered that part?
 





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#29
So how can one develop a scientific understanding? I don’t think you answered that part?
I did a science degree (biology / biochem) but tbh, you can get the same mental rigour from a determination not to stand for woolly thinking. I liked the training C.S. Lewis received from the teacher he affectionately termed “the Great Knock”:-

“At Bookham I was met by my new teacher—”Kirk” or “Knock” or the Great Knock as my father, my brother, and I all called him. We had heard about him all our lives and I therefore had a very clear impression of what I was in for. I came prepared to endure a perpetual lukewarm shower bath of sentimentality. That was the price I was ready to pay for the infinite blessedness of escaping school; but a heavy price….

He was over six feet tall, very shabbily dressed (like a gardener, I thought), lean as a rake, and immensely muscular. His wrinkled face seemed to consist entirely of muscles, so far as it was visible; for he wore mustache and side whiskers with a clean-shaven chin like the Emperor Franz Joseph….

Apparently, however, the old man was holding his fire. We shook hands, and though his grip was like iron pincers it was not lingering. A few minutes later we were walking away from the station.

“You are now,” said Kirk, “proceeding along the principal artery between Great and Little Bookham.”

I stole a glance at him. Was this geographical exordium a heavy joke? Or was he trying to conceal his emotions? His face, however, showed only an inflexible gravity. I began to “make conversation” in the deplorable manner which I had acquired at those evening parties…. I said I was surprised at the “scenery” of Surrey; it was much “wilder” than I had expected.

“Stop!” shouted Kirk with a suddenness that made me jump. “What do you mean by wildness and what grounds had you for not expecting it?”

I replied I don’t know what, still “making conversation.” As answer after answer was torn to shreds it at last dawned upon me that he really wanted to know. He was not making conversation, nor joking, nor snubbing me; he wanted to know. I was stung into attempting a real answer. A few passes sufficed to show that I had no clear and distinct idea corresponding to the word “wildness,” and that, in so far as I had any idea at all, “wildness” was a singularly inept word. “Do you not see, then,” concluded the Great Knock, “that your remark was meaningless?”

I prepared to sulk a little, assuming that the subject would now be dropped. Never was I more mistaken in my life. Having analyzed my terms, Kirk was proceeding to deal with my proposition as a whole. On what had I based (but he pronounced it baized) my expectations about the Flora and Geology of Surrey? Was it maps, or photographs, or books? I could produce none. It had, heaven help me, never occurred to me that what I called my thoughts needed to be “baized” on anything. Kirk once more drew a conclusion—without the slightest sign of emotion, but equally without the slightest concession to what I thought good manners: “Do you not see, then, that you had no right to have any opinion whatever on the subject?”

By this time our acquaintance had lasted about three and a half minutes; but the tone set by this first conversation was preserved without a single break during all the years I spent at Bookham. Anything more grotesquely unlike the “dear Old Knock” of my father’s reminiscences could not be conceived“

(Surprised by Joy, Chapter IX: The Great Knock).
 





Lisa

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#30
I did a science degree (biology / biochem) but tbh, you can get the same mental rigour from a determination not to stand for woolly thinking. I liked the training C.S. Lewis received from the teacher he affectionately termed “the Great Knock”:-

“At Bookham I was met by my new teacher—”Kirk” or “Knock” or the Great Knock as my father, my brother, and I all called him. We had heard about him all our lives and I therefore had a very clear impression of what I was in for. I came prepared to endure a perpetual lukewarm shower bath of sentimentality. That was the price I was ready to pay for the infinite blessedness of escaping school; but a heavy price….

He was over six feet tall, very shabbily dressed (like a gardener, I thought), lean as a rake, and immensely muscular. His wrinkled face seemed to consist entirely of muscles, so far as it was visible; for he wore mustache and side whiskers with a clean-shaven chin like the Emperor Franz Joseph….

Apparently, however, the old man was holding his fire. We shook hands, and though his grip was like iron pincers it was not lingering. A few minutes later we were walking away from the station.

“You are now,” said Kirk, “proceeding along the principal artery between Great and Little Bookham.”

I stole a glance at him. Was this geographical exordium a heavy joke? Or was he trying to conceal his emotions? His face, however, showed only an inflexible gravity. I began to “make conversation” in the deplorable manner which I had acquired at those evening parties…. I said I was surprised at the “scenery” of Surrey; it was much “wilder” than I had expected.

“Stop!” shouted Kirk with a suddenness that made me jump. “What do you mean by wildness and what grounds had you for not expecting it?”

I replied I don’t know what, still “making conversation.” As answer after answer was torn to shreds it at last dawned upon me that he really wanted to know. He was not making conversation, nor joking, nor snubbing me; he wanted to know. I was stung into attempting a real answer. A few passes sufficed to show that I had no clear and distinct idea corresponding to the word “wildness,” and that, in so far as I had any idea at all, “wildness” was a singularly inept word. “Do you not see, then,” concluded the Great Knock, “that your remark was meaningless?”

I prepared to sulk a little, assuming that the subject would now be dropped. Never was I more mistaken in my life. Having analyzed my terms, Kirk was proceeding to deal with my proposition as a whole. On what had I based (but he pronounced it baized) my expectations about the Flora and Geology of Surrey? Was it maps, or photographs, or books? I could produce none. It had, heaven help me, never occurred to me that what I called my thoughts needed to be “baized” on anything. Kirk once more drew a conclusion—without the slightest sign of emotion, but equally without the slightest concession to what I thought good manners: “Do you not see, then, that you had no right to have any opinion whatever on the subject?”

By this time our acquaintance had lasted about three and a half minutes; but the tone set by this first conversation was preserved without a single break during all the years I spent at Bookham. Anything more grotesquely unlike the “dear Old Knock” of my father’s reminiscences could not be conceived“

(Surprised by Joy, Chapter IX: The Great Knock).
Are you a reincarnated C.S. Lewis? Haha!
 





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#31
Are you a reincarnated C.S. Lewis? Haha!
I think you can learn a lot from people who are in your particular “crowd of witnesses”. I suppose each of us are drawn to particular kinds of people who we would have loved to have know in real life. Lewis is my kind of person and I would very much have enjoyed a pint and a chat with him if I were a Christian in the Oxford area during the 1940s. As it is, I have read most of his books...

Other people I really like and respect have included Roger Price, G.K. Chesterton, prof A.E. Wilder-Smith, Dr James Tour, Ravi Zacharias, Tolkien, Milton and many more.

One thing that suddenly struck me years ago about the importance of my opinion (having been a very opinionated young man) was that I was coming in to a conversation that had been going for some considerable time before I arrived and that I would do well to listen to some of the more interesting contributors before venturing my own views...
 





Lisa

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#32
I think you can learn a lot from people who are in your particular “crowd of witnesses”. I suppose each of us are drawn to particular kinds of people who we would have loved to have know in real life. Lewis is my kind of person and I would very much have enjoyed a pint and a chat with him if I were a Christian in the Oxford area during the 1940s. As it is, I have read most of his books...

Other people I like have included Roger Price, G.K. Chesterton, Dr James Tour, Ravi Zacharias, Tolkien and many more.

One thing that suddenly struck me years ago about the importance of my opinion (having been a very opinionated young man) was that I was coming in to a conversation that had been going for some considerable time before I arrived and that I would do well to listen to some of the more interesting contributors before venturing my own views...
Be careful of who you allow to shape your opinions though.

So, you have catholics in the group you learn from? Interesting.
 





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#33
Be careful of who you allow to shape your opinions though.

So, you have catholics in the group you learn from? Interesting.
There is a difference between being a sponge and being a diner. A sponge has no critical faculties to accept or reject the liquids it is presented with. It’s a sponge!

A diner looks at a meal and is able to judge which bits are worth eating and which should remain on the plate. If you are eating a trout, this becomes a useful skill. Accordingly, I leave Tolkien’s Catholicism on the plate while enjoying his theism.

I’m sure you take my meaning ;-)
 





Lisa

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#34
There is a difference between being a sponge and being a diner. A sponge has no critical faculties to accept or reject the liquids it is presented with. It’s a sponge!

A diner looks at a meal and is able to judge which bits are worth eating and which should remain on the plate. If you are eating a trout, this becomes a useful skill. Accordingly, I leave Tolkien’s Catholicism on the plate while enjoying his theism.

I’m sure you take my meaning ;-)
Its those small baby steps though..
 





Lisa

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#37
Just like I can’t learn from pre trib rapture proponents...their theology colors their beliefs..
 





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#38
No one has the intention of leaving the faith..even if it is by baby steps.
Which is why these words are very reassuring - I trust the Holy Spirit to guide me and bring me home safely...

Jude 24-25 King James Version (KJV)

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
 





Lisa

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#39
Which is why these words are very reassuring - I trust the Holy Spirit to guide me and bring me home safely...

Jude 24-25 King James Version (KJV)

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Jude‬ ‭1:21‬ ‭
keep yourselves in the love of God

‭‭I think it matters who you learn from, honestly and who you allow to shape your thinking.
 





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#40
Jude‬ ‭1:21‬ ‭
keep yourselves in the love of God

‭‭I think it matters who you learn from, honestly and who you allow to shape your thinking.
I agree entirely.

I think Paul was known to occasionally quote a Greek source “has not one of your poets said...”, and perhaps he was not always clearly understood by others (including Peter).

2 Peter 3:16

“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”

King James Version (KJV)

I can just picture him writing these words in Romans 14:-

“4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.”
 





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