John L. Esposito - The Future of Islam

Serveto

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Yes, on the surface, I do support the religion of Judaism. I am very acclimated to what their doctrine says in the Torah and I did define Judaism as distinct according to this. What you are suggesting about the groups entertaining establishing Noahide laws is nothing more than a fantasy ...
Just to be clear, I want to state that it is not a fantasy on my part. After all, there is an entry in the Jewish Encyclopedia on the subject, and, according to recent news reports, a Sanhedrin, or Jewish Court, has recently been established to decide on some of these issues.
This is how the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy is envisioned according to some people who want events to play out according to their own arrogance. However, this is not something that is actually supported by their doctrine.
Again, as it relates to the reconquista of Palestine, and as against the True Torah Jews on this issue, I would refer to the disciples of the two Rabbis Kook for how they, Jews themselves, are not only redefining but enacting the doctrine. If you disagree with them, I don't mind, and neither will I involve myself in the doctrinal specifics. I am more interested in history than theology, and history, in this case, is happening now.

Thank you, at any rate, for responding. I am, as always, interested to hear your perspective on things.
 

rainerann

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Just to be clear, I want to state that it is not a fantasy on my part. After all, there is an entry in the Jewish Encyclopedia on the subject, and, according to recent news reports, a Sanhedrin, or Jewish Court, has recently been established to decide on some of these issues.

Again, as it relates to the reconquista of Palestine, and as against the True Torah Jews on this issue, I would refer to the disciples of the two Rabbis Kook for how they, Jews themselves, are not only redefining but enacting the doctrine. If you disagree with them, I don't mind, and neither will I involve myself in the doctrinal specifics. I am more interested in history than theology, and history, in this case, is happening now.

Thank you, at any rate, for responding. I am, as always, interested to hear your perspective on things.
:) just to be clear. I am not suggesting that people can’t pursue the realization of their fantasy or that what you are saying is false. From my own investigations, I have come to similar conclusions on the subject which is one of the many reasons I don’t support Zionism.

I am simply saying that the historical doctrine of Judaism does not support this so there is no reason to define Judaism according to these additions.

What you are introducing is similar to the Book of Mormon in relation to the Christian Church. The Book of Mormon is an addition to doctrine that has had a real manifestation that included polygamy and all sorts of the things that are not promoted in the gospel until the government had to intervene and made polygamy illegal.

The history of the Mormon church in America is one of the reasons I support preventing theocratic governments. It is the true foundation for my support of separation of church and state because it was this feature that released these women and children from the oppression of polygamy that the religious leaders were imposing on them. Without the separation of church and state, there would be no opportunity to intervene on the behalf of the women and children. Separation of church and state creates accountability and demands a greater transparency of the practices of religion so that people are able to enjoy spirituality without becoming victims of spiritual abuse. It creates a system of checks and balances that allows America to coexist with other religions in a way that does not exist throughout the world. Therefore, it is a much more effective process of government than a theocracy even if it doesn’t always work perfectly.

So whether or not the idea of a theocracy is also the vision of these people who call themselves Jews, this would only equate them with Islam, not create any kind of distinction that would give Islam redeeming qualities. It essentially provides a mirror from which we are able to pursue an understanding of the motivations and outcomes of theocratic forms of government. They are equal examples as far as I’m concerned. However, in the case of Judaism, they are able to distinguish themselves from these motivations because they do not exist as a point of origin. Islam is not able to do this. Suggesting that the religion of Islam does not always create a threat of theocracy is really only saying they don’t always have the authority to do this. Sometimes, the government where people live who identify as Muslim is able to retain their authority like in the case of China, the us, India. This is again demonstrating that theocracy is a failed system of government much like monarchy that will never realize its entire vision even though that was the goal of Islam at one point in time. As a result of this, it is funny that these Jews would think that their experience will be any different. It won’t be. It will inevitably lead to failure.
 

Serveto

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@rainerann

Concerning your issues vis-a-vis Islam, I leave you in the competent and capable hands of the resident, participating Muslims. I think they are in a position to address the issues and have demonstrated a willingness to do exactly that. Thank you, again, for the sidetrack into Judaism. No doubt this and related subjects will arise again, again and yet again on this board :D.
 

DesertRose

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@rainerann
Secular systems are not accountable to God hence they are an inferior means of governance.
Muslims can throw out and punish leadership that do not abide by Allah's laws that is why we are for Islamic governance.
The leadership we put in place should have a vested interest as believers in not transgressing the Creator's laws hence they can not kill unjustly, steal or lie or cheat etc.
With secular leadership conduct or misconduct is of no consequence to anyone including themselves. The systems of checks and balances can be easily bypassed and enforcers bought off without fear of harsh consequences.
Those who are responsible do not have any "skin in the game".
They can lead through Machiavellian means to suit their own selfish ends.
They can deny and lie, murder and cheat without a conscience.
These systems of governance can and have been infiltrated by Satanists.
You are in political, social and economic bondage and you fixate on the convenient scapegoat Islam, because they told you so.
I really think that they brainwash and use magic to gain acceptance from those they need to fight their wars.
You have no idea about who is a true friend and who is your real enemy.
They will use people who think like you to fight people who think like us till infinity.
Till you and yours lose everything ..........
You will betray your own values (rights offered under constitution bypassed by Patriot Act etc) to help them against us because they have hijacked you.
At the very least help yourselves and regain social, economic and foreign policy sovereignty from the Zionists in your midst.
 
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