Jesus, James or Paul?

Todd

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Nonsense a soul saved is worth all the guile you can muster.
So you don’t really believe Jesus when he says “the truth will set you free”?
Deception is okay as long as the end goal is worthy? Sound like the philosophy of Satan not Jesus. I sincerely hope most Christians don’t really agree with you, though that would help explain why the church has a reputation of hypocrisy.
 

JoChris

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@JoChris
1 Peter 2:21-22
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Here Peter clearly says Christ is our example and there was found no guile in his mouth. It is clearly presented here that guile is sin.

Hebrew word translated as guile:
STRONGS NT 1388: δόλος

δόλος, δόλου, ὁ (from δέλω, to catch with a bait ((?); Latindolus, cf. Curtius, § 271); see δελεάζω above); properly, bait, Homer, Odyssey 12, 252; a lure, snare; hence, craft, deceit, guile: Matthew 26:4; Mark 14:1; Mark 7:22; John 1:47 (48); Acts 13:10; 2 Corinthians 12:16; Romans 1:29; 1 Thessalonians 2:3 (οὐκ ἐστι ἐν δόλῳ, there is no deceit under it); 1 Peter 2:(1), 22, and Revelation 14:5 Rec., after Isaiah 53:9; λαλεῖν δόλον to speak deceitfully (Psalm 33:14 (Ps. 34:14)), 1 Peter 3:10.

2 Corinthians 12:16
But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

Clearly Paul admits using guile in dealing and winning over the Corinthians. The Strongs entry above confirms it is the exact same word that Peter used.

Philippians 1:18
What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice.” Philippians 1:18.

Commentary from The Infinite Truth"

Forgiving all his sins prior to his self-proclaimed conversion, let us ponder on the philosophy on which Paul preached. In Philippians Chapter 1, Verse 18: “But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.” Paul clearly does not care if you go by evil means to spread the message of Christ, so long as people hear of Christ."

To make it clear the same word that is translated as pretense in Philippians is used by Jesus to describe the behavior he rebuked the Scribes and Pharisees for. Yet Paul says he will rejoice when pretense is used to preach his gospel.

Paul clearly taught there was no profit in circumciscion and clearly taught there was no benefit and being observant of Jewish traditions, yet to deceive Jewish believers and win them over he circumcised Timothy himself and shaved his own head.

"Oh...Paul...why then did you cause Timothy to be circumcised contrary to your own convictions?...I ask you again Paul, why did you shave your head? ....We have thus seen that for fear of the Jews...Paul pretended that [he] observed the precepts of the Law." (Quoted in , The Concessions of the Apostle Paul, and the Claims of Truth (1854) at 57.)

I thought as Christians we were supposed to stand for truth and our own convictions. When according to Jesus are we ever supposed to lie, pretend, decieve or use guile in dealing with others, preaching the gospel and winning over others?
I am trying to be patient but boy you make it hard. You are as stubborn as Muslims in their refusal to see scriptures which contradict their worldview.
Quoting Greek bible commentary does not remove the fact you used that same verse out of context.

One example: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+1:12-21&version=KJV

...
15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: [Envy and strife of who? The apostle Paul. Who is guilty of those sins? The jealous rivals, not Paul.]

16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: [who is sinning by trying to stir up contention and cause further suffering? The jealous rivals, not Paul].

17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. [Who is preaching the gospel of Love? The supporters of Paul]

18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. [Who was preaching the Gospel with ulterior motives? Paul's jealous rivals, not Paul. Was Paul rejoicing because guile was used? No, he was rejoicing because the Gospel was being preached more, full stop, period, finit, the end.]

-----
P.S. You chose an interesting author to back up your position. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agénor_de_Gasparin
(Surely you can find an mainstream writer from the same general time period as the apostles/ first generation disciples who supports your position i.e. no later than 2nd century AD?)

He had been a psychic investigator "Science versus modern spiritualism" (1857). It sounds like he actually did it for Christian purposes, as demonstrated by the book's conclusion. See https://archive.org/details/sciencevsmodern00bairgoog/page/n430

It would be so easy to take quotes out of context from the short Wikipedia entry plus this book to suggest that he was in fact FOR the occult.... and therefore claim that you Todd quoted an occultist's material in order to discredit Paul.

It would have made you look so bad if I had done that. It might have turned Christian readers against considering your entries, whether good or bad. I know that no-one would have checked it out if I had decided to lie by omission.

Just as well 1. I am an honest creature and try to find out the context before reflexively passing judgement on authors 2. I want fairness for you as well as other readers.
 
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Daciple

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Clearly Paul admits using guile in dealing and winning over the Corinthians
Stop Todd, your hatred of Paul blinds you to what he is saying, its disheartening to watch this constantly come from you.

But be it so, I did not burden you,.... These words are not spoken by the apostle in his own person of himself, but in the person of his adversaries, and contain a concession and an objection of theirs, but be it so; they granted that he had not burdened the Corinthians, that he had took nothing of them himself for preaching the Gospel; they owned that he had preached it freely; this was so clear a point, and so flagrant a case, that they could not deny it; yet they insinuated to the Corinthians, and objected to the apostle, that though he did not receive anything from them with his own hands, yet he craftily and cunningly made use of others to drain their purses, and receive it for him; and which is suggested in the next clause:

nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile; so say the false apostles of me; for these are not the words of the apostle in his own person; nor to be understood of any spiritual craft, or lawful cunning and prudent artifices used by him, to allure and draw the Corinthians into a good liking and opinion of the Gospel and of his ministry, and so caught them, and was the happy means of their conversion; but they are spoken in the person of the false apostles, charging him with a wicked and criminal craftiness, by making use of other persons in a sly underhanded way, to get this church's money, when he pretended to preach the Gospel freely; to which he answers in the next verse.


You cant even discern what Paul is saying here, you really need to stop leaning on all your Paul Hating Sources to try and bring Paul into contention with the Church, the other Apostles, Christ or God. Read the next verse and the verse after that, Paul didnt defraud anyone, and he asks them outright IS HE really guilty of the things you quoted. Ugh your discernment is horrible...

2 Cor 12:17 Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom I sent unto you?
18 I desired Titus, and with him I sent a brother. Did Titus make a gain of you? walked we not in the same spirit? walked we not in the same steps?


All the Christians here can see thru your deceptions, I hope that as we expose you over and over, those who are not Christians begin to pick up on the FACT that there is you and your false gospel that hates Paul and then ALL of the Christians who are continually calling for you to Repent of your deception and false gospel.

I have yet to see ONE other person who has declared Christ as their Savior to take sides with you on pretty much any issue that you ardently argue for while I have seen pretty much ALL the other people who have declared Christ as their Savior rebuke you over and over, how hard head must one be NOT to heed the cries of so many Christian brothers?

Who I do notice that agree with you are Anti Christs, isnt that something...
 

Daciple

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Would you look at that, 2 people who claim Christ as their Savior, posting back to back within 5 min with the exact same rebuke of your false allegations of Paul. Wonder if you are going to accept the rebuke and repent for your false assertions about Paul, or are you going to refuse to accept the Truth and continue to argue your false point in hopes to keep up your hatred against Paul.

Really ought to tell you something when 2 Christians who didnt have any idea what the other was posting or when literally give the exact same reasoning for why you are incorrect within minutes of each other. Do you believe in coincidence? I really dont, wake up Todd...
 

JoChris

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Would you look at that, 2 people who claim Christ as their Savior, posting back to back within 5 min with the exact same rebuke of your false allegations of Paul. Wonder if you are going to accept the rebuke and repent for your false assertions about Paul, or are you going to refuse to accept the Truth and continue to argue your false point in hopes to keep up your hatred against Paul.

Really ought to tell you something when 2 Christians who didnt have any idea what the other was posting or when literally give the exact same reasoning for why you are incorrect within minutes of each other. Do you believe in coincidence? I really dont, wake up Todd...
Now I think I am doing it for neutral readers of whatever religious persuasion, not for Todd's sake.

Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

I do not see myself as a follower of Paul like I bet Todd labels me.
Paul was a mighty servant of God but he was certainly not perfect. He did not die for my sins on the cross, Jesus did.
 

JoChris

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Again, I don't believe Todd was intending to deceive. If anything he was speaking from a side of his emotions. He's stated his distrust for Paul and those verses communicate as much.

Sure, you're the only "Christian" on the forum. Don't you mean Fundamentalist? I'm the last to quote out of context, unlike the preachers sitting around with a concordance, sifting for words to back up their elaborate theories. I believe we should actually read the book/chapter, not use it pump our tires. 8:51 is a saying of Jesus. I agree he's establishing his authority but it's more than that. The passage is part of the debate with the Jews in chapter 8 but there is a pause and then this last exchange begins. He's highlighting the value/meaning of His Word earlier in verse 31:

"Then Jesus said to the Jews who believed in Him, 'If you abide in my Word, you are My disciples indeed.'"

and in verse 47:

"He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."

His Word is God's Word. His connection to the Almighty is his reality. The purity and confidence within His Word, which is truth manifest, is of God and therefore eternal. If we follow His Word we are uniting ourselves to the Almighty who is infinite and in everything - I AM.

If you remove the fog of theology you'll feel the inspiration within a simple verse.
Todd's entries do not appear emotional to me. He sounds like he has taken a long time to get set in his belief system.

I most certainly am not the only Christian on the forum. You have quite a few strong-in-faith Christians here to type with in fact.

The passage is meant to be read simply as it is. The obvious meaning of a bible passage is to be noted and studied.

Individual verses like John 8:51 most certainly can be preached upon, but they should never be taken out of context to support a person's opinions or worldview. That is eisegesis.

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You took verse 51 as supporting good works = salvation.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Davidson - what do you say would make a person WILLING to keep Jesus' words, commandments etc?
 

DavidSon

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You took verse 51 as supporting good works = salvation.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Davidson - what do you say would make a person WILLING to keep Jesus' words, commandments etc?
I'm not involved in the works/faith dispute. As Red Sky said, both aspects are part of the journey- simple. You're the one reading too much into chapter 8, or maybe too little. Kind of sad you're choosing to translate Word to "saying". There wasn't a book floating around in the beginning; a way to think of his word is as consciousness or universal intelligence. God's word is more than a saying.

In chapter 8, at the temple, Jesus is preaching forgiveness, God as the true father, his own divinity, works, faith... all together. He's also illuminating the notion of the Word. The central message Jesus conveys is about his connection to God, that he is the son. His way of thinking is of God, not men. He's sparkling with wisdom. He rebukes the Pharisees from different angles. In each section of dialogue he's saying nearly the same thing within different idioms (much like his teaching as a whole). Chapter 8 is about hearing the Word, reminding us that if we can hear "it", God is in us.

37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me because My word has no place in you.

43 "Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

47 "He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."

Returning to the original post: Christians follow God and Christ, all the Fathers, Mothers , saints, judges, prophets, apostles, preachers, etc. Paul and the theologians are only among the witness's... they're not superior to HIM. Faith has made us whole, not the logic of men.
 

TokiEl

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So you don’t really believe Jesus when he says “the truth will set you free”?
Deception is okay as long as the end goal is worthy? Sound like the philosophy of Satan not Jesus. I sincerely hope most Christians don’t really agree with you, though that would help explain why the church has a reputation of hypocrisy.
I don't know why you have a problem with souls saved by employing guile... unless you don't want souls saved or you truly think all souls will be saved.

I do not think all souls will be saved... and so if i like Paul can trick a person to Jesus Christ.. you bet i will.
 

Todd

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I don't know why you have a problem with souls saved by employing guile... unless you don't want souls saved or you truly think all souls will be saved.

I do not think all souls will be saved... and so if i like Paul can trick a person to Jesus Christ.. you bet i will.
Trick people to Jesus Christ? I really don't know how to respond to that....
No wonder the church has a reputation of hypocrisy if this is representative of the chrarcter of the typical church goer.
 
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I do not think all souls will be saved... and so if i like Paul can trick a person to Jesus Christ.. you bet i will.
If the minister is not sincere and not lead by the Holy Spirit and uses deceit to preach the Gospel...Then he does not know the Gospel. Nor does he have fellowship with God. Study 1 Corinthians chapters 2 and 3. before you reply, so you understand.
 

Todd

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If the minister is not sincere and not lead by the Holy Spirit and uses deceit to preach the Gospel...Then he does not know the Gospel. Nor does he have fellowship with God. Study 1 Corinthians chapters 2 and 3. before you reply, so you understand.
While I totally agree with your sentiment here, why do you think Paul says he rejoices even when the gospel is preached with pretense if this is the case?
 

TokiEl

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Lol! That was said tongue in cheek, wasn't it? In any case, it was cheeky.
I am reminded of the trouble Jesus got Himself into for healing people on the Sabbath.

No stop don't do it !... For God's sake it's the Sabbath man !

And Jesus answered them... But don't you all untie your oxen and donkeys and lead them to water on the Sabbath ?
 
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TokiEl

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If the minister is not sincere and not lead by the Holy Spirit and uses deceit to preach the Gospel...Then he does not know the Gospel. Nor does he have fellowship with God. Study 1 Corinthians chapters 2 and 3. before you reply, so you understand.
If you love your brother... you would want him to repent and be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ.

You don't want to loose your brother whom you love right ? Am i right ?

Answer me !
 

TokiEl

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Trick people to Jesus Christ? I really don't know how to respond to that....
No wonder the church has a reputation of hypocrisy if this is representative of the chrarcter of the typical church goer.
Well we used to cut them down with the sword before...
 
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While I totally agree with your sentiment here, why do you think Paul says he rejoices even when the gospel is preached with pretense if this is the case?
The Apostle could rejoice as long as Christ was being preached, even though the preaching was done insincerely and with evil motives (Phil. 1:15-18). On the other hand, he calls for a curse on certain teachers that pervert the Gospel message with legalism. (Gal. 1:8-9). Thus he reverses that standard of values that exalts right conduct above correct doctrine. These people that were preaching were not preaching the wrong doctrine, but were magnifying themselves above Paul out of pride. (Phil. 1:12-18) The Gospel was not wrong, but their motive was insincere.
 

Todd

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The Apostle could rejoice as long as Christ was being preached, even though the preaching was done insincerely and with evil motives (Phil. 1:15-18). On the other hand, he calls for a curse on certain teachers that pervert the Gospel message with legalism. (Gal. 1:8-9). Thus he reverses that standard of values that exalts right conduct above correct doctrine. These people that were preaching were not preaching the wrong doctrine, but were magnifying them selves above Paul out of pride. (Phil. 1:12-18) The Gospel was not wrong, but their motive was insincere.
pre·tense
/ˈprēˌtens,prēˈtens/

noun

  1. 1.
    an attempt to make something that is not the case appear true.
    "his anger is masked by a pretense that all is well"synonyms:make-believe, act, putting on an act, acting, dissembling, shamming, sham, faking, feigning, simulation, falsification, dissimulation, invention, imagination, self-deception, playacting, posturing, posture, posing, pose, cant, attitudinizing; More
  2. 2.
    a claim, especially a false or ambitious one.
    "he was quick to disclaim any pretense to superiority"synonyms:claim, aspiration, purporting, profession"she herself had long since dropped any pretense to faith"
How can you preach the true gospel with Pre-tense? It's a contradiction.
 
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If you love your brother... you would want him to repent and be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ.

You don't want to loose your brother whom you love right ? Am i right ?

Answer me !
Never by deceit. The Gospel is pure, and so should the preacher giving the Gospel.
 
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pre·tense
/ˈprēˌtens,prēˈtens/

noun

  1. 1.
    an attempt to make something that is not the case appear true.
    "his anger is masked by a pretense that all is well"synonyms:make-believe, act, putting on an act, acting, dissembling, shamming, sham, faking, feigning, simulation, falsification, dissimulation, invention, imagination, self-deception, playacting, posturing, posture, posing, pose, cant, attitudinizing; More

  2. 2.
    a claim, especially a false or ambitious one.
    "he was quick to disclaim any pretense to superiority"synonyms:claim, aspiration, purporting, profession"she herself had long since dropped any pretense to faith"
How can you preach the true gospel with Pre-tense? It's a contradiction.
Yes, You just do not understand the meaning, even thou you wrote it down. There are more than not that preach the Gospel with pretense...They are the pretense...not the Gospel, they cloak themselves as angels of light. Christ said to Israel, obey the priest what they preach...but do not be like them.
 
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