Jesus, James or Paul?

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#41
Make all the excuses for Paul you want. Fine you don’t agree that guile and white lies are the same thing. Paul clearly said he used guile and the rest of the Bible clearly says their should be no guile in us.
Proverbs 12:10
Psalm 5:6
Jeremiah 48:10
Revelation 14:5
1 Peter 2:21-22
 





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#42
I just wanted to add that the apostle Paul never claimed that he was perfect. On the contrary, he said that he was the chief of sinners. After his conversion, he still struggled with sin. As a matter of fact, all of the prophets and disciples had their shortcomings. That being said, there was only one perfect human that ever lived. But God chose to use imperfect people to teach others and to record His word. King David had his own issues, but yet he still repented and wrote many scriptures that are relevant to people of our generation.
 





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#43
I just wanted to add that the apostle Paul never claimed that he was perfect. On the contrary, he said that he was the chief of sinners. After his conversion, he still struggled with sin. As a matter of fact, all of the prophets and disciples had their shortcomings. That being said, there was only one perfect human that ever lived. But God chose to use imperfect people to teach others and to record His word. King David had his own issues, but yet he still repented and wrote many scriptures that are relevant to people of our generation.
Isn't it strange - that's what I wanted to add but couldn't quite find the words. We are all imperfect and God is able to use each of us for his own plans if we let Him.
 





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#44
I just wanted to add that the apostle Paul never claimed that he was perfect. On the contrary, he said that he was the chief of sinners.
And he might have been right... as he was not only persecuting Christians but Jesus Christ himself.


After his conversion, he still struggled with sin.
But did he give in to sin or did he overcome ?
 





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#45
Thanks Red I appreciate the info. This wasn’t meant to be a comment on GoT just something I found interesting. I will add that James is my favorite Epistle and I believe it hits at what being a Christian is supposed to be far more than the long winded ramblings of Paul.
I tried to read a chapter from a letter and it was complete nonsense.

" If therefore as it were (shall we say then but of another) would it appear not so? For as I say (speaking not of course by me) not now, but what there? Shall we then not know? Yet I relent to such, and the same faith is with me, not knowing. Yea, I tell you no. (By the way I'm the 13th apostle, I swear!)" :D

It's bewildering the RCC, Luthers, and now huge majority of churches have built themselves not on the words of the Christ, but on Paul.
 





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#46
I tried to read a chapter from a letter and it was complete nonsense.

" If therefore as it were (shall we say then but of another) would it appear not so? For as I say (speaking not of course by me) not now, but what there? Shall we then not know? Yet I relent to such, and the same faith is with me, not knowing. Yea, I tell you no. (By the way I'm the 13th apostle, I swear!)" :D

It's bewildering the RCC, Luthers, and now huge majority of churches have built themselves not on the words of the Christ, but on Paul.
Other than his expressions of God's Love that are actually quite beautiful at times, his writing is so bad and incoherent lol. He was one of those guys who talked and talked but never actually says anything.

Yes, modern Christianity is really Paulianity and it's been devastating historically speaking.
 





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#49
Make all the excuses for Paul you want. Fine you don’t agree that guile and white lies are the same thing. Paul clearly said he used guile and the rest of the Bible clearly says their should be no guile in us.
Proverbs 12:10
Psalm 5:6
Jeremiah 48:10
Revelation 14:5
1 Peter 2:21-22
People should be able to see why Todd did not quote the bible verses/ give links.

1. Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
How is that proverb relevant?

2. Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.


How is verse 6 relevant to the now CHRISTIAN apostle Paul (no longer Saul)?

3. Revelation 14 is referring to prophecies about future martyrs. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelation+14&version=KJV

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.


4. These verses are about JESUS.
1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.


Atheists/ non-Christians may not be able to see it, but you are blatantly misleading people because of your hatred of the apostle Paul.

You should hang your head in shame. Satan is the Father of Lies.
 





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#50
Other than his expressions of God's Love that are actually quite beautiful at times, his writing is so bad and incoherent lol. He was one of those guys who talked and talked but never actually says anything.

Yes, modern Christianity is really Paulianity and it's been devastating historically speaking.
Paul's books are more difficult to understand than other writers' books. He deals with the WHY, not the "who, when, what, where, how" bible passages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ws

His writings are a complement to the other apostles' books, not in opposition to them.
 





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#51
Atheists/ non-Christians may not be able to see it, but you are blatantly misleading people because of your hatred of the apostle Paul.

You should hang your head in shame. Satan is the Father of Lies.
Dramatic much? The number of people moving toward a relationship with strictly God and Christ is increasing. It's natural we honor those who share the faith, but God and Jesus is the source of Christianity. If a person moves away from a dependency on Pauline or Greco-Roman understanding toward the Holy One, they will be just fine.

I do agree that while the verses Todd put up were referring to guile, they don't really apply to Paul here (except part of #2 as Paul did murder and hunt down Christians).

I wouldn't call the reaction we're having over Paul hatred. It's the age of information. We can look up in 5 seconds the history of the Reformist movement. I can't believe you don't know the history of your own church's origins, how tied they are to Paul's' epistles alone. You rely on Paul's vision as a source of doctine/belief, but I say give people the life-changing teachings- the words of Jesus- and they'll have ALL they ever need. :)

51 "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."-JOHN 8:51
 





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#52
Using itablet.
As a self-proclaimed Christian Todd knows much better than to intentionally misquote the bible.
The number of people moving toward a relationship with strictly God and Christ is increasing. It's natural we honor those who share the faith, but God and Jesus is the source of Christianity. If a person moves away from a dependency on Pauline or Greco-Roman understanding toward the Holy One, they will be just fine.
And how do people form a relationship with Jesus? Through faith in the Gospel (Good News), a person becomes born again.
How do people learn about the Gospel? Through hearing/ reading preaching from the BIBLE.

Who wrote books in the New Testament? Men who knew Jesus/ apostles personally.
Who accepted Paul as being one of them? Peter, an apostle who walked with Jesus for 3 years.

I do agree that while the verses Todd put up were referring to guile, they don't really apply to Paul here (except part of #2 as Paul did murder and hunt down Christians).
1. Those words were completely out of context. Please acknowledge that.
2. A question for you to investigate:
Did Paul try to hunt down Christians to get them killed/ imprisoned BEFORE or AFTER he became a Christian?
I wouldn't call the reaction we're having over Paul hatred. It's the age of information. We can look up in 5 seconds the history of the Reformist movement. I can't believe you don't know the history of your own church's origins, how tied they are to Paul's' epistles alone. You rely on Paul's vision as a source of doctine/belief, but I say give people the life-changing teachings- the words of Jesus- and they'll have ALL they ever need. :)

51 "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."-JOHN 8:51
Ironically in the Age of the internet people are incredibly ill-informed.
Many people do not have the time or even the ability to search for simple verses of the bible. Todd knows that, which makes it even more disgraceful.

People trust that a self-declared Christian would never intentionally quote verses out of context to make people believe what it does not say.

Satan also misquotes scripture, as shown in https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4:5-7+&version=KJV.
Compare verse 6 to https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+91:9-12&version=KJV


Davidson please listen to what we Christians are trying to tell you. It is of the utmost importance that you keep the bible in context.

That verse from John 8:51 is right in the centre of a debate between Jesus and the Jews RE Jesus being sent from God (the Father). The very next verse the Jews accuse Jesus of having a devil. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8:31-59&version=KJV

Can you see what you have done with the verse is completely wrong? It is not a passage about eternal reward for obeying Jesus' commandments, It is Jesus' identity being questioned.
 





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#53
Again, I don't believe Todd was intending to deceive. If anything he was speaking from a side of his emotions. He's stated his distrust for Paul and those verses communicate as much.

Sure, you're the only "Christian" on the forum. Don't you mean Fundamentalist? I'm the last to quote out of context, unlike the preachers sitting around with a concordance, sifting for words to back up their elaborate theories. I believe we should actually read the book/chapter, not use it pump our tires. 8:51 is a saying of Jesus. I agree he's establishing his authority but it's more than that. The passage is part of the debate with the Jews in chapter 8 but there is a pause and then this last exchange begins. He's highlighting the value/meaning of His Word earlier in verse 31:

"Then Jesus said to the Jews who believed in Him, 'If you abide in my Word, you are My disciples indeed.'"

and in verse 47:

"He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."

His Word is God's Word. His connection to the Almighty is his reality. The purity and confidence within His Word, which is truth manifest, is of God and therefore eternal. If we follow His Word we are uniting ourselves to the Almighty who is infinite and in everything - I AM.

If you remove the fog of theology you'll feel the inspiration within a simple verse.
 





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#54
@JoChris
1 Peter 2:21-22
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Here Peter clearly says Christ is our example and there was found no guile in his mouth. It is clearly presented here that guile is sin.

Hebrew word translated as guile:
STRONGS NT 1388: δόλος

δόλος, δόλου, ὁ (from δέλω, to catch with a bait ((?); Latindolus, cf. Curtius, § 271); see δελεάζω above); properly, bait, Homer, Odyssey 12, 252; a lure, snare; hence, craft, deceit, guile: Matthew 26:4; Mark 14:1; Mark 7:22; John 1:47 (48); Acts 13:10; 2 Corinthians 12:16; Romans 1:29; 1 Thessalonians 2:3 (οὐκ ἐστι ἐν δόλῳ, there is no deceit under it); 1 Peter 2:(1), 22, and Revelation 14:5 Rec., after Isaiah 53:9; λαλεῖν δόλον to speak deceitfully (Psalm 33:14 (Ps. 34:14)), 1 Peter 3:10.

2 Corinthians 12:16
But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

Clearly Paul admits using guile in dealing and winning over the Corinthians. The Strongs entry above confirms it is the exact same word that Peter used.

Philippians 1:18
What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice.” Philippians 1:18.

Commentary from The Infinite Truth"

Forgiving all his sins prior to his self-proclaimed conversion, let us ponder on the philosophy on which Paul preached. In Philippians Chapter 1, Verse 18: “But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.” Paul clearly does not care if you go by evil means to spread the message of Christ, so long as people hear of Christ."

To make it clear the same word that is translated as pretense in Philippians is used by Jesus to describe the behavior he rebuked the Scribes and Pharisees for. Yet Paul says he will rejoice when pretense is used to preach his gospel.

Paul clearly taught there was no profit in circumciscion and clearly taught there was no benefit and being observant of Jewish traditions, yet to deceive Jewish believers and win them over he circumcised Timothy himself and shaved his own head.

"Oh...Paul...why then did you cause Timothy to be circumcised contrary to your own convictions?...I ask you again Paul, why did you shave your head? ....We have thus seen that for fear of the Jews...Paul pretended that [he] observed the precepts of the Law." (Quoted in Agenor Etienne Gasparin, The Concessions of the Apostle Paul, and the Claims of Truth (1854) at 57.)

I thought as Christians we were supposed to stand for truth and our own convictions. When according to Jesus are we ever supposed to lie, pretend, decieve or use guile in dealing with others, preaching the gospel and winning over others?
 





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#55
@JoChris
1 Peter 2:21-22
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Here Peter clearly says Christ is our example and there was found no guile in his mouth. It is clearly presented here that guile is sin.

Hebrew word translated as guile:
STRONGS NT 1388: δόλος

δόλος, δόλου, ὁ (from δέλω, to catch with a bait ((?); Latindolus, cf. Curtius, § 271); see δελεάζω above); properly, bait, Homer, Odyssey 12, 252; a lure, snare; hence, craft, deceit, guile: Matthew 26:4; Mark 14:1; Mark 7:22; John 1:47 (48); Acts 13:10; 2 Corinthians 12:16; Romans 1:29; 1 Thessalonians 2:3 (οὐκ ἐστι ἐν δόλῳ, there is no deceit under it); 1 Peter 2:(1), 22, and Revelation 14:5 Rec., after Isaiah 53:9; λαλεῖν δόλον to speak deceitfully (Psalm 33:14 (Ps. 34:14)), 1 Peter 3:10.

2 Corinthians 12:16
But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

Clearly Paul admits using guile in dealing and winning over the Corinthians. The Strongs entry above confirms it is the exact same word that Peter used.

Philippians 1:18
What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice.” Philippians 1:18.

Commentary from The Infinite Truth"

Forgiving all his sins prior to his self-proclaimed conversion, let us ponder on the philosophy on which Paul preached. In Philippians Chapter 1, Verse 18: “But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.” Paul clearly does not care if you go by evil means to spread the message of Christ, so long as people hear of Christ."

To make it clear the same word that is translated as pretense in Philippians is used by Jesus to describe the behavior he rebuked the Scribes and Pharisees for. Yet Paul says he will rejoice when pretense is used to preach his gospel.

Paul clearly taught there was no profit in circumciscion and clearly taught there was no benefit and being observant of Jewish traditions, yet to deceive Jewish believers and win them over he circumcised Timothy himself and shaved his own head.

"Oh...Paul...why then did you cause Timothy to be circumcised contrary to your own convictions?...I ask you again Paul, why did you shave your head? ....We have thus seen that for fear of the Jews...Paul pretended that [he] observed the precepts of the Law." (Quoted in Agenor Etienne Gasparin, The Concessions of the Apostle Paul, and the Claims of Truth (1854) at 57.)

I thought as Christians we were supposed to stand for truth and our own convictions. When according to Jesus are we ever supposed to lie, pretend, decieve or use guile in dealing with others, preaching the gospel and winning over others?

Lying is acceptable apparently, as long as it achieves an end. I wonder where Frankie gets his justification from?

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/msnbcs-...p-has-repeatedly-said-things-that-arent-true/
 





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#56
What do you make of the advice of Jesus in Matthew 10?

"16Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."

There may well be no profit in circumcision or particular hairstyles, but if your motivation for doing them is to remove a stumbling block from people understanding the Gospel, where is the harm. You can be shrewd without being deceitful. God knows our hearts and our motivations. I would advise caution in the judgement of Paul's motivations for using shrewdness in his presentation of Jesus, as the measure we give will be the measure we get.
 





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#57
What do you make of the advice of Jesus in Matthew 10?

"16Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."

There may well be no profit in circumcision or particular hairstyles, but if your motivation for doing them is to remove a stumbling block from people understanding the Gospel, where is the harm. You can be shrewd without being deceitful. God knows our hearts and our motivations. I would advise caution in the judgement of Paul's motivations for using shrewdness in his presentation of Jesus, as the measure we give will be the measure we get.
So you are equating being wise with deceit? Sorry not buying it.
Jesus clearly was our example and there was no guile in him. Paul clearly admits he used guile and appears to have no remorse about it. That’s my point. I don’t see what is debatable here.

Now of course you are still free to hold him and his writings in high regard by trying to justify his guile with human reasoning, but I for one cannot with good conscience.

If Paul truly believed circumcision was of no profit and attempting to follow the law was a sin (as so many Christians on this forum claim) then wouldn’t him performing circumcision on Timothy have created a false notion for the Jews that observing the Torah was beneficial?

Of course I believe there is benefit in following Torah. My issue with Paul is he is clearly double- minded. (Another reason I believe the book of James is a direct refute of Paul’s epistles). As we would say in today’s vernacular, he was two faced.
 





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#58
So you are equating being wise with deceit? Sorry not buying it.
Jesus clearly was our example and there was no guile in him. Paul clearly admits he used guile and appears to have no remorse about it. That’s my point. I don’t see what is debatable here.

Now of course you are still free to hold him and his writings in high regard by trying to justify his guile with human reasoning, but I for one cannot with good conscience.

If Paul truly believed circumcision was of no profit and attempting to follow the law was a sin (as so many Christians on this forum claim) then wouldn’t him performing circumcision on Timothy have created a false notion for the Jews that observing the Torah was beneficial?

Of course I believe there is benefit in following Torah. My issue with Paul is he is clearly double- minded. (Another reason I believe the book of James is a direct refute of Paul’s epistles). As we would say in today’s vernacular, he was two faced.
Perhaps you can tell him yourself some day, @Todd ?

I understand that rejecting Paul's authority is important to you and I'm really not going to think my powers of persuasion are sufficient to overcome your commitment to your rejection. I think that, looking to the wider issues involved here, it is worth restating the relationship of faith, works, law and grace in the right balance. Much as I would like to continue debating o we the same material, this will be my final post on this thread:-

 





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#59
I realized how I never really answered what I thought about what Jesus said in Matthew 10. Jesus clearly distinguishes us as Sheep and not wolves. So what is symbolism of sheep mean. Sheep are not predatory. They will never defend themselves. They require the Shepherd to keep them safe. They know the voice of the Shepherd (despite what Paul and Church dogma say there is only one Shepherd) and the true sheep will not follow the voice of another.

A wolf on the other hand is predatory. The wolf is clearly associated with the teaching of lawlessness (teaching that the Torah is no longer applicable). In the Benjamin ravenous wolf prophecy (that Jesus clearly references when he says “they are ravenous wolves) the wolf divides the spoils. To me it’s clear that when Paul’s persecution of saints only caused the true gospel to spread even more, satan changed his tactics to divide the gospel. Paul clearly fulfills this role by preaching a different gospel (gospel of lawlessness) to the gentiles while giving impression to the Jews he was still Torah observant. Paul is the wolf, whether by choice or because he was deceived I don’t know.

Jesus says we are to be wise, as in we must recognize the lawless gospel as a test that God clearly said he would send to us.
 





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#60
2 Corinthians 12:16
But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

Clearly Paul admits using guile in dealing and winning over the Corinthians. The Strongs entry above confirms it is the exact same word that Peter used.
Yes for the sake of their souls... also guile is in the armory of not only an apostle but Christians who love their neighbour.

Anyhow let them know the Truth about Jesus Christ so they will want to repent and be baptised and receive the gift of the Holy spirit.