Jesus, James or Paul?

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#21
In defense of Paul, he suffered greatly and was imprisoned and ultimately killed. I don't know of anyone who would willingly put their life on the line in order to preach the gospel if they were actually lying about it. Before he was converted he had a high position. So it doesn't make sense that he would just give up his authority and join a cause that he knew he could be killed for. He witnessed Stephen being killed. And furthermore, it isn't very likely that the word of God that is accepted worldwide is written by someone that God allowed to deceive people. If God has protected the holy scriptures throughout the ages, it's a safe bet that it is one hundred percent correct and that no human has been able to corrupt it, although many have tried to corrupt it through different translations, the true word still exists. The dead sea scrolls may have some of the scriptures intact, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they all are inspired by God. There are many books that were excluded from the bible, but those that were written by Paul were included. I believe that God, being all powerful over the entire universe, could very well make sure that His Holy Bible was and is without fault.
 





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#22
The bible does not tell of when, where or how Paul died. Jesus warned of an anti Christ and we just assume he is yet to come; this anti Christ was supposed to be so very good at what he did he would deceive the very elect (a few of the apostles, perhaps?). What stands in the Vatican, The basilica of St Paul; London (designed by the Freemason, Wren), St Paul’s Cathedral; Valetta in Malta (remember those pesky knights?), St Paul’s, of course. I could go on as I have done lots of research on this. I am sorry if I offend but I cannot hold that the bible is infallible because everything touched by man is by such contact corrupted.
 





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#23
The bible does not tell of when, where or how Paul died. Jesus warned of an anti Christ and we just assume he is yet to come; this anti Christ was supposed to be so very good at what he did he would deceive the very elect (a few of the apostles, perhaps?). What stands in the Vatican, The basilica of St Paul; London (designed by the Freemason, Wren), St Paul’s Cathedral; Valetta in Malta (remember those pesky knights?), St Paul’s, of course. I could go on as I have done lots of research on this. I am sorry if I offend but I cannot hold that the bible is infallible because everything touched by man is by such contact corrupted.
So it's Paul's fault what people did with his name after his death ? Peter is even worse then Paul... as popes claim to be his successors.

I am sorry if I offend but I cannot hold that the bible is infallible because everything touched by man is by such contact corrupted.
So God is able to create universe ( i assume you are believer) but can't protect one book ? It's two groups those who have faith and those who don't.
 





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#24
Saying 12 of this gospel {Thomas} the disciples said to Jesus:
"We are aware that you will depart from us. Who will be our leader?"
Jesus answered: "No matter where you come from, it is to James the Just that you shall go, for whose sake heaven and earth have come to exist."
 





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#26
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#27
Thanks Red I appreciate the info. This wasn’t meant to be a comment on GoT just something I found interesting. I will add that James is my favorite Epistle and I believe it hits at what being a Christian is supposed to be far more than the long winded ramblings of Paul.
One of the things that really helped my understanding of the Bible was the concept of "antinomy" or holding things in tension. It isn't that faith is right and works wrong or works are the way and faith is insufficient. Faith and works are intertwined with one another, the latter flowing from the former like scent from a flower. Perhaps that makes sense?
 





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#28
One of the things that really helped my understanding of the Bible was the concept of "antinomy" or holding things in tension. It isn't that faith is right and works wrong or works are the way and faith is insufficient. Faith and works are intertwined with one another, the latter flowing from the former like scent from a flower. Perhaps that makes sense?
I agree with you. It takes a lot of faith to believe in the logical doctrine of Christ as practical way of life in the face of a society that is obsessed with temporary pleasure, material possessions and societal status. It takes much more faith to believe that this could work for the world than it does to believe in a supernatural occurrence to save my immortal soul.
 





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#29
Thanks Red I appreciate the info. This wasn’t meant to be a comment on GoT just something I found interesting. I will add that James is my favorite Epistle and I believe it hits at what being a Christian is supposed to be far more than the long winded ramblings of Paul.
The "Gospel of Thomas" comment, or recommendation, is also interesting in that, speaking historically, just as the Jewish Temple was destroyed by Titus around 70 C.E. or A.D., so too did the predominantly Jewish Jerusalem Church, with the later martyred James the Just as patriarch, then go into diaspora and become more or less eclipsed by the predominantly gentile church, headed by St. Paul and his disciples. The rest, as they say, is history.
 





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#30
The "Gospel of Thomas" comment is also interesting in that, speaking historically, just as the Jewish Temple was destroyed by Titus around 70 C.E. or A.D., so too did the predominantly Jewish Jerusalem Church, with the later martyred James the Just as patriarch, go into diaspora and become more or less eclipsed by the predominantly gentile church, headed by St. Paul and his disciples. The rest, as they say, is history.
There are lots of reasons why established religion prefers Peter and Paul to James. I never once heard the book of James mentioned in 11 years of Baptist Church.

James 5 1-6

1 Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you.
2 Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes.
3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days.
4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty.
5 You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.
6 You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.





 





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#31
So God is able to create universe ( i assume you are believer) but can't protect one book ?
Surely the multiple dodgy translations and especially something like the gender-neutral version shows that this is simply not true?
The original words (which have been lost to antiquity) may well have been God breathed but are subject to the inevitable corruption of this material existence; and the same could be said about His universe - just look at the mess we’ve made of the world.
 





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#32
Surely the multiple dodgy translations and especially something like the gender-neutral version shows that this is simply not true?
The original words (which have been lost to antiquity) may well have been God breathed but are subject to the inevitable corruption of this material existence; and the same could be said about His universe - just look at the mess we’ve made of the world.
If we were blind deaf and dumb, then yes gender neutral translation would be the end of it lol. Otherwise, zero relevance for spiritually aware ...Satan is allowed to tempt us for a time and he does it.. I see nothing strange about him attacking believers, churches, faith bible. Material existence only means neither we are material beings ourselves, souls in a shell for a short while.
And yes world is a mess, wouldn't be if we obeyed God.
 





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#33
One of the things that really helped my understanding of the Bible was the concept of "antinomy" or holding things in tension. It isn't that faith is right and works wrong or works are the way and faith is insufficient. Faith and works are intertwined with one another, the latter flowing from the former like scent from a flower. Perhaps that makes sense?
I agree wholeheartedly which is why I don’t accept Paul as an Apostle. There is some truth in his writings, which is why you can cherry pick verses to claim he agreed with Jesus. But if we are talking about infallible inspiration we should not find any contradictions or disagreement, and I don’t have to look hard to find it. Obviously Peter saw that contradictory conclusions could be made from Paul’s writing. If God is so clearly obsessed with protecting the Bible as fundamentalists claim, why would allow writings that can easily confuse? If Peter saw in the first century that was the case, surely God would have known also.
 





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#34
It's an interesting topic and I am indebted to @Kais_1 for bringing it up...

If a future historian were to take our entries in this forum, perhaps in response to questions that had been deleted they may conclude that we were very variable people, angry one day, incoherent another and occasionally rather humorous. These would all be facets of our character brought out by the interaction we had with others.

One thing that has formed in my mind in terms of "who said what" is that when they said it and who they said it to is of prime importance. For those Galatians confused by the legalists, they needed to understand grace, and Paul preached it. The Corinthians needed to see the importance of love over pure dynamism. James needed to convey to a Church that already understood grace, where works still had their place.
 





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#35
It's an interesting topic and I am indebted to @Kais_1 for bringing it up...

If a future historian were to take our entries in this forum, perhaps in response to questions that had been deleted they may conclude that we were very variable people, angry one day, incoherent another and occasionally rather humorous. These would all be facets of our character brought out by the interaction we had with others.

One thing that has formed in my mind in terms of "who said what" is that when they said it and who they said it to is of prime importance. For those Galatians confused by the legalists, they needed to understand grace, and Paul preached it. The Corinthians needed to see the importance of love over pure dynamism. James needed to convey to a Church that already understood grace, where works still had their place.
So you agree with Paul that telling white lies is okay when it suits the situation?

Of course someone from the future looking at our forum would see differences because we don’t agree and some of us are re-evaluating what we thought we believed so our thoughts can change. But we also are not writing the “inspired word of God”. If Paul was inspired it shouldn’t matter to who or when he was writing. Unless of course you believe there is a different gospel for different people.

I believe the Bible is the record of Man’s understanding of the covenant of God. The words of God are contained within the Bible, but not all the words in the Bible are God’s words.

God is the same, yesterday today and forever. His Covenant has never changed, only man’s understanding of it. Noah had a very rudimental understanding. Moses built upon it, and the prophets hinted at the clarification that was to come (i.e. written on our hearts) through Jesus. The epistles are not prophetic writings. Apostolic writing is simply conveying the words and teaching of Christ. Epistles do not contain new prophetic revelation.

Paul claims new revelatation and clearly believes it as he calls his message “my gospel” making it clear he distinguishes it from the gospel Peter, James and John preached.

Moses and Jesus are the only ones who spoke directly the words of God. (And God clearly told Moses there would only be one other prophet that would directly speak the words of God).

All other prophets received revelation from dreams and visions. Paul never indicates his teaching came from dreams or visions. The only vision he tells us of is his conversion story where he is called to be a witness, not a prophet or apostle.

The book of Revelation is the only prophetic book in the New Testament. Paul’s writings don’t fit the pattern that God established. I don’t expect many here to accept that, but it is just one of many clues I see to reject Paul as an Apostle.
 





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#38
Oh he never said it was okay for Christians to lie, he just admitted that he did it.

2 Corinthians 12:16
Romans 3:7
Philippians 1:18
1 Corinthians 9:19-22
Itablet - giving links since you didn't. Paul sometimes gave paragraphs, not Twitter-length messages. People need to keep their attention on what he actually says.

1. See surrounding verses. A bit of sarcasm there, don't you think?
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=+2+corinthians+12:14-19&version=KJV

2. Theological chapter. See surrounding verses. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+3&version=KJV

3. You omitted his personal situation (jailed) verses leading up to verse 18. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+1:12-20&version=KJV

4. Theological chapter https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+9+&version=KJV

Preaching to people on their wavelength does not equal deception.
Preaching according to people's needs does not equal deception.

Deliberately alleging Paul told Christians that white lies are permitted IS deception.

Taking verses deliberately out of context is breaking a Old Testament commandment.

Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour*.

----
*Including Apostle Paul.
 





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#39
Oh he never said it was okay for Christians to lie, he just admitted that he did it.

2 Corinthians 12:16
Romans 3:7
Philippians 1:18
1 Corinthians 9:19-22
If you were to read these verses in context you would blush that you use these as examples of Paul telling white lies.
 





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#40
Todd, Chapter and verse where apostle Paul said it was OK for Christians to tell "white lies" please.

Live episode:

https://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrew-roots.html
Very good video on the Hebrew Roots Movement btw ^

I think we should be aware of our Hebrew roots, just as you should "rightly divide" the Word of Truth. As soon as the word "Movement" is added to these principles, it seems strange to me that they head into error.

A truth overstated or taken out of balance becomes a deception as it is used to eclipse other truths.