Jesus, James or Paul?

Todd

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I guess I'm just a simple carnal man then. for 25+ years I prayed and studied and tried to understand Paul, believing he was the great Apostle of my faith. I admit there are portions of his writing I find beautiful and inspiring. Love is patient, kind....for example is one I will always cherish and hold onto. I however have given up on understanding and seeking after the mystical Christ person and the very confusing gospel he preached.

Instead I am choosing to focus and base my faith on what Christ himself taught. I know it will take a lifetime of spiritual growth to even come close to living all that Jesus taught. From my own experience I have already witnessed more fruit and growth from 3-4 years of this approach verse the 20+ years of the previous approach. I repent for the wasted time and fruitless endeavor of tyring to prove that Paul preached a different gospel and was not a genuine Apostle of Yahushua Bar Yosef. If I am correct I will leave it to the Holy Spirit to convince others.

I will keep my comments and discussion focused instead on what Jesus himself spoke and taught. I pray that by focusing on the words and teaching of Jesus, despite what others might believe about Paul, the truth that Jesus spoke will be a light.
 

Daciple

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I absolutely am the only one here who can correctly interpret prophecies.
You are absolutely not the only one here who can correctly interpret prophecies, I mean you may be deluded and think you are, but you definitely are not. As I have said before of those who proclaim to be Christians on this site you are probably the farthest from understanding and discerning prophecies correctly. I mean the fact that you are so enamored with trying to "correctly interpret prophecies" shows to me that you have little to no understanding of either prophecies or really the point of the Gospel.

Heres a fact for you, there have been billions of people trying to interpret the Prophecies in Scriptures for thousands of years, and guess what maybe a handful if all of humanity have been anywhere near correct, especially apart from the writers of Scripture. Removing them and then you have about 0% of people who have correctly interpreted prophecies.

Dont believe me? Look at literally then entire history of Israel and specifically the 1st coming of Christ. Who do you think correctly understood all the Old Testament Prophecies concerning Christs 1st coming? How many THOUGHT they knew how to interpret these Prophecies?

Literally thousands upon thousands THOUGHT, much like you, that they had some special ability to discern the correct interpretation of Old Testament Prophecies and therefore KNEW how the Messiah would come. How many of them were correct? Zero, absolutely none understood how Christs first coming would be, not even those who declared Him to be the Son of God! Dont believe me? Look at John the Baptist:

Matt 11:2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?


John the Baptist declared Jesus as the Son of God, the one who takes away Sin, and he STILL doubted it, he STILL didnt understand the Prophecies 100% concerning Jesus! However you want us and you tell yourself you know how to interpret Scripture better than John, the greatest Prophet? Sure buddy.

Look at ALL the Disciples, NONE of them understood the Prophecies concerning Jesus Christ coming nor His Resurrection or Ascention. Dont believe me?

Luke 18:34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

In context Jesus literally told them He would die and resurrect outright, but even then they still didnt comprehend what He was meaning and talking about, yet YOU know better then all of them? Sure bro anything you say...

On and on I can go quoting Scriptures about how neither John the Baptist, none of the Disciples, none of the Pharisees or anyone else understood all the Prophecies around Jesus 1st coming. It is nothing less than the ultimate display of arrogance to say that you know and are able to understand all the Prophecies. You have absolutely no humility whatsoever concerning this topic and imo in general.

You don't even know that the very first Commandment of God... is to obey His commandments.
Smh, so you have same ability to discern what I say as you do about discerning Prophecies and that is none at all. Actually the very first Commandment of God is have no other Gods before Him, and to love God and one another as God loves us. You already proved my point in your misunderstanding of the 1st Commandment of God, yet you want us to believe you know how to interpret Prophecies correctly? You sir are a hoot:

Ex 20:2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Matt 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

And for the billionth time not one single Christian here has denounced the obedience of God, we have reiterated over and over that obedience comes FROM Salvation and is NOT what brings Salvation. You clearly either can not understand this for some reason, or you are willfully ignorant and purposefully conflate the words we say concerning this topic. Either way what we can all discern from you, is that you are absolutely the very last person who proclaims themselves as a follower of Christ that we ought to turn our ear to when it comes to understanding Prophecy. You can not even understand and interpret basic Scripture concerning Salvation, Grace and Works, if anyone believes you concerning much more ethereal ideology such as Prophecies then they are doing a massive disservice to themselves.

Although I dont believe any Christian on this site has that problem, we can all discern correctly that you have no idea what you are talking about and as we have seen over and over with you and other people who say they believe in Christ, no matter how many professors of Christ admonish you concerning your Doctrine or Ego you will absolutely refuse to Repent and acknowledge you may have a problem. Therefore we all just pretty much ignore your nonsense, but chime in here and there to refute it so others are not led astray.
 

TokiEl

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I never said that, even if i did doesn't change the fact that either me or Serveto is right about you, i would be happier if it's me.
I'm sorry to disappoint you... but you are of course wrong.

Come think of it... i don't think you've been right about anything.
 
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TokiEl

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You are absolutely not the only one here who can correctly interpret prophecies, I mean you may be deluded and think you are, but you definitely are not. As I have said before of those who proclaim to be Christians on this site you are probably the farthest from understanding and discerning prophecies correctly. I mean the fact that you are so enamored with trying to "correctly interpret prophecies" shows to me that you have little to no understanding of either prophecies or really the point of the Gospel.

Heres a fact for you, there have been billions of people trying to interpret the Prophecies in Scriptures for thousands of years, and guess what maybe a handful if all of humanity have been anywhere near correct, especially apart from the writers of Scripture. Removing them and then you have about 0% of people who have correctly interpreted prophecies.

Dont believe me? Look at literally then entire history of Israel and specifically the 1st coming of Christ. Who do you think correctly understood all the Old Testament Prophecies concerning Christs 1st coming? How many THOUGHT they knew how to interpret these Prophecies?

Literally thousands upon thousands THOUGHT, much like you, that they had some special ability to discern the correct interpretation of Old Testament Prophecies and therefore KNEW how the Messiah would come. How many of them were correct? Zero, absolutely none understood how Christs first coming would be, not even those who declared Him to be the Son of God! Dont believe me? Look at John the Baptist:
It was crucial that the Jews rejected the Messiah and therefore very few knew back then... now on the other hand at the threshold of the apocalypse... in these last days before the eternal distinction between the sheep and the goats... all will be known.

The question is... are you paying attention ? Can you discern right from wrong or truth from error ?

No don't flatter yourself... there are things which you don't know... realities which you have not seen.

The big picture is truly big... and you are standing in a corner watching details while i am floating in the air taking it all in.




Smh, so you have same ability to discern what I say as you do about discerning Prophecies and that is none at all. Actually the very first Commandment of God is have no other Gods before Him, and to love God and one another as God loves us. You already proved my point in your misunderstanding of the 1st Commandment of God, yet you want us to believe you know how to interpret Prophecies correctly? You sir are a hoot:
I don't know who hoot is but... that's right you don't even know that the very first Commandment of God is to obey His commandments... and so you don't fool me man.

You may fool most people with your long often boring love of your own thoughts and words... but you don't fool me.

I am foolproof. And that's how i win.



And for the billionth time not one single Christian here has denounced the obedience of God, we have reiterated over and over that obedience comes FROM Salvation and is NOT what brings Salvation. You clearly either can not understand this for some reason, or you are willfully ignorant and purposefully conflate the words we say concerning this topic. Either way what we can all discern from you, is that you are absolutely the very last person who proclaims themselves as a follower of Christ that we ought to turn our ear to when it comes to understanding Prophecy. You can not even understand and interpret basic Scripture concerning Salvation, Grace and Works, if anyone believes you concerning much more ethereal ideology such as Prophecies then they are doing a massive disservice to themselves.
No you don't understand.

The Spirit of God obeys the Commandments of God.

That is non debatable... but you guys make light of adultery perjury and all the crimes worthy of death as if it is a joke... well i'm not laughing. And that's bad news for you.
 

Kais_1

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hardly any of you have mentioned the dead sea scrolls or the fact that jesus was from the qumranian community
 

Daciple

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No don't flatter yourself... there are things which you don't know... realities which you have not seen.
Well man I am not quite as full of myself as you are so of course I understand that I dont know many things, you however have lied to yourself and believe you have some special insight that the rest of Humanity doesnt have. You are floating, I will give you that, I suggest popping that big headed ego of yours that has you in the air and come back to Reality and humble yourself or I am sure God will.

I don't know who hoot
I hoot means a laugh, you are funny with your wonderful braggadocios egotistical nonsense, that is all wrong..

that's right you don't even know that the very first Commandment of God is to obey His commandments... and so you don't fool me man.
I literally gave you the First Commandments of God, from both the 10 Commandments that you think you keep, and the Words of Christ, the only one who is fooled and doing the fooling is you of yourself...

No you don't understand.

The Spirit of God obeys the Commandments of God.

That is non debatable... but you guys make light of adultery perjury and all the crimes worthy of death as if it is a joke... well i'm not laughing. And that's bad news for you.
Nah brother, it is you who doesnt understand and who is full of themselves but go ahead and keep telling us just how great you are, we can see right thru it tho..
 
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If you take James seriously, and are still a capitalist you are doing it wrong.

Jesus Christ was murdered because he rallied the poor and the oppressed, and the workers. Jesus was the first defender of the proletariat.

"The brother in humble circumstances should exult in his high position. 10BUT the one who is rich should exult in his low position, because he will pass away like a flower of the field11For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its flower falls and its beauty is lost. So too, the rich man will fade away in the midst of his pursuits.…"
 
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JoChris

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If you take James seriously, and are still a capitalist you are doing it wrong.

Jesus Christ was murdered because he rallied the poor and the oppressed, and the workers. Jesus was the first defender of the proletariat.

"The brother in humble circumstances should exult in his high position. 10BUT the one who is rich should exult in his low position, because he will pass away like a flower of the field11For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its flower falls and its beauty is lost. So too, the rich man will fade away in the midst of his pursuits.…"
Can you show evidence from the bible where Jesus called the poor to unite against the wealthy Elite?
 
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Can you show evidence from the bible where Jesus called the poor to unite against the wealthy Elite?
Luke 4:16-19 King James Version (KJV)

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.




 

JoChris

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Luke 4:16-19 King James Version (KJV)


16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
On itablet.
See next verses. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+4:20-21&version=KJV

That was Jesus claiming to be the man in https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+61:1-3&version=KJV.
The context is not financial, it is spiritual. https://biblehub.com/commentaries/isaiah/61-1.htm
 
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Luke 14:12-24 New International Version (NIV)


12 Then Jesus said to his host, “When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or sisters, your relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. 13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.

Luke 6:20-26 20Looking at his disciples, he said: "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. 21Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh. 22Blessed are you when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. 23"Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets. 24"But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort. 25Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep. 26Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.

Matthew 25:34-36
Then the king will say to those at his right hand, "Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me."

Mark 10:21-22

Mark 10:21-22 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.


 

JoChris

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Luke 14:12-24 New International Version (NIV)


12 Then Jesus said to his host, “When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or sisters, your relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. 13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.

Luke 6:20-26 20Looking at his disciples, he said: "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. 21Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh. 22Blessed are you when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. 23"Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets. 24"But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort. 25Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep. 26Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.

Matthew 25:34-36
Then the king will say to those at his right hand, "Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me."

Mark 10:21-22

Mark 10:21-22 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.


Can you expand on why you believe those passages support your opinion that Jesus caused the poor to unite against the Elite? Your viewpoint is interesting and deserves a new thread.
 
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Can you expand on why you believe those passages support your opinion that Jesus caused the poor to unite against the Elite? Your viewpoint is interesting and deserves a new thread.

I'll consider making a thread on it.

To keep this a bit on topic I'll start with this



"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world"

James 1: 27

While this does not specifically mention finances its clear that orphans and widows face financial difficulties and James understood that this was the first duty of being a Christ-Follower.

We can begin with the fact that Nazareth was considered a backwater, the circumstances of the man himself were humble. Unfortunately we have no record of his early life ( suspicious to me ) but Jesus came from humble circumstances and he preached directly to the masses.


He calls out the rich



"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

and as I have shown with other passages a significant portion of his message was about service to the poor. I think its pretty clearly the back-bone of Christianity. Solidarity with the poor. I'm not saying Jesus was a radical revolutionary in the sense of taking arms and overthrowing established order, but with the message that service to others, and loyalty only to "God" as expressed by brotherhood and service to the poor and oppressed as is so clearly taught by Jesus that this alone was the greatest threat ever presented to established order.

It's a bit late and I will have to gather my thoughts into a more coherent message, but I'll work on it. Thanks for listening.

I don't agree with Ellul on everything but this may give you a better insight into some of what I believe than I can articulate myself :)

http://www.jesusradicals.com/uploads/2/6/3/8/26388433/anarchism-and-christianity.pdf
 

JoChris

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I'll consider making a thread on it.

To keep this a bit on topic I'll start with this



"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world"

James 1: 27

While this does not specifically mention finances its clear that orphans and widows face financial difficulties and James understood that this was the first duty of being a Christ-Follower.

We can begin with the fact that Nazareth was considered a backwater, the circumstances of the man himself were humble. Unfortunately we have no record of his early life ( suspicious to me ) but Jesus came from humble circumstances and he preached directly to the masses.


He calls out the rich



"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

and as I have shown with other passages a significant portion of his message was about service to the poor. I think its pretty clearly the back-bone of Christianity. Solidarity with the poor. I'm not saying Jesus was a radical revolutionary in the sense of taking arms and overthrowing established order, but with the message that service to others, and loyalty only to "God" as expressed by brotherhood and service to the poor and oppressed as is so clearly taught by Jesus that this alone was the greatest threat ever presented to established order.

It's a bit late and I will have to gather my thoughts into a more coherent message, but I'll work on it. Thanks for listening.

I don't agree with Ellul on everything but this may give you a better insight into some of what I believe than I can articulate myself :)

http://www.jesusradicals.com/uploads/2/6/3/8/26388433/anarchism-and-christianity.pdf
I read the file and I disagreed with a lot of what he wrote. All I will type here is that he is a good example of a writer quoting Jesus/ interpreting bible passages to support their personal worldview, cult-style.

And that is coming from a Bernie Sanders-type (if only he was Christian) supporter, if foreigners count.

P.S. Why are Democrats so anti-Christian anyway? Yes that is yet another topic, but I find it bizarre.
 
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I read the file and I disagreed with a lot of what he wrote. All I will type here is that he is a good example of a writer quoting Jesus/ interpreting bible passages to support their personal worldview, cult-style.
Thanks for reading it. Respectfully isn't that what anyone's viewpoint of the Bible is?


And that is coming from a Bernie Sanders-type (if only he was Christian) supporter, if foreigners count.
.
? and relevance?

P.S. Why are Democrats so anti-Christian anyway? Yes that is yet another topic, but I find it bizarre.
Are they really? They all pay lipservice to it at least. I have yet to see any convincing signs of Christian persecution in America.

I would argue that Trump hates Christianity, based off how he lived his life and his contempt for the poor, and that Bernie, as an agnostic Jew has lived a much more 'Christ-Like' life than Donald Trump or Mike Pence.
 
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JoChris

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Thanks for reading it. Respectfully isn't that what anyone's viewpoint of the Bible is?




? and relevance?



Are they really? They all pay lipservice to it at least. I have yet to see any convincing signs of Christian persecution in America.

I would argue that Trump hates Christianity, based off how he lived his life and his contempt for the poor, and that Bernie, as an agnostic Jew has lived a much more 'Christ-Like' life than Donald Trump or Mike Pence.
Relevance was a pre-emptive strike against the assumption that a foreigner Christian would automatically support the Republicans/ similar party in their own country since they have the Christian pro-life position.

I had this opinion piece in the back of my mind. https://reformationcharlotte.org/2019/02/01/if-youre-a-democrat-youre-probably-not-saved/
If I was an American the Democrats were pro-Christian and pro-life I would definitely vote Democrats.
 
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Relevance was a pre-emptive strike against the assumption that a foreigner Christian would automatically support the Republicans/ similar party in their own country since they have the Christian pro-life position.

I had this opinion piece in the back of my mind. https://reformationcharlotte.org/2019/02/01/if-youre-a-democrat-youre-probably-not-saved/
If I was an American the Democrats were pro-Christian and pro-life I would definitely vote Democrats.

Who is making that assumption though? I'm sorry I'm just having a hard time following you here. I mean you would support the Republicans as they currently are right, if you were a yank?

That article is pretty arrogant, as if you can tell who is "saved" or not based off their politics. I would say that the hatred the Republican party has for the poor makes them Anti-Christs, if we're doing that.
 

JoChris

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Who is making that assumption though? I'm sorry I'm just having a hard time following you here. I mean you would support the Republicans as they currently are right, if you were a yank?

That article is pretty arrogant, as if you can tell who is "saved" or not based off their politics. I would say that the hatred the Republican party has for the poor makes them Anti-Christs, if we're doing that.
I get what you mean now. I am starting a new thread.
 
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