Jesus and the First Christians Were Vegetarians

DavidSon

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@Daciple

As if it was 8-day old baby Jesus who told Mary and Joseph to not forget about the Law of Moses and take Him to His cricumcision and then sacrifice an animal or two. It were the customs of His parents who were under Mosaic Law, therefore Jesus was under Mosaic Law. The weakness of this argument says a great deal.


I doubt you'd be unfamiliar with the context of the Epistle to the Hebrews. All the more reason I wonder why you don't provide that context in your reasoning. This is the most Judaizing (Judaizing in the sense of "legitimizing the old law") text in the Gospels because it was written to the Hebrews who had become doubtful about Jesus being the Messiah. Its purpose is to convince them that Jesus' is the fulfillment of the Hebrew scriptures; that He is greater than Moses; that His new covenant supersedes the old; and to prevent the Hebrews from leaving the church and going back to their synagogues (and thus their old rituals). Even the most old-testamentary scripture of the New Testament tells us that the sacrificial system is over (no concessions are given here) and that the Mosaic Covenant, which according to the Hebrew scriptures was supposed to be eternal, is finished. This epistle is a genuine piece of proselytizing scripture portraying Jesus as a fulfiller of prophecy, not a destroyer, while in reality, their results are exactly the same, ie. the sacrificial system had come to an end.

Framing it as a fulfillment was the means by which the Hebrews were converted.



Do meditate on these two verses from the scripture you have chosen:

Hebrews 9
13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
We were debating this before but I still think the best description of Jesus is as a Jewish reformer. I see what you're saying about a New Covenant, a new way of life, but you can't cut off the Judaic roots of the entire story. Jesus said he was sent for the lost sheep of Israel. He kept Sabbath (at least defended his interpretation of it), Passover, and taught from Scripture in the Temple religiously. His disciples were Jewish and the first Christians were Jewish (his brother James at Jerusalem) and they kept many of the traditions intact. By saying he didn't believe in destroying the law, but fulfilling it, it's recognizing a choice of what laws should be kept and how to instill them properly.

We do agree I think that anyone associating Rabbinical Judaism with the Messiah is out of their mind. The man's almost single mission was to dismantle the Pharisaical fake priests. He decried their arrogance, cruelty, and ignorance; reliance on birthrights, self-righteousness, invented traditions, greed, and hypocrisy. He said he could raise Abraham's offspring from rocks lol. Really he was condemning an outward religious practice that neglects the spirit. Jesus's admonition certainly included tedious regulations for the Sabbath and animal sacrifice.

Jesus was preaching the same thing about the sacrificial system as the prophets hundreds of years before. That's one reason his kindred knew he was speaking as a prophet.
 
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What’s the difference? Isn’t the Law, the Law?
I believe Mosaic law can be divided into three parts: legislation given by God (El), legislation given by Moses because of the hard-heartedness of his people, and legislation given by the elders (the latter consisting of the largest part of the law). The difference being that I believe the laws of the elders are already contained in the Torah and aren't reduced to mere oral traditions that were penned down in the Talmud much later. Jesus condemned not just the Pharisees, but the scribes as well.
 

Daciple

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As if it was 8-day old baby Jesus who told Mary and Joseph to not forget about the Law of Moses and take Him to His cricumcision and then sacrifice an animal or two. It were the customs of His parents who were under Mosaic Law, therefore Jesus was under Mosaic Law. The weakness of this argument says a great deal.
So you think the god of your invention is going to send the One True God as His Son purposefully enslaved into Satans System of Sacrifice? That is what your illogic always contends, and then the One True Gods Son is going to follow said Satanic System Himself and die in a manner that Satan set up?

That would be like having actual Satanists like todays Satanists, have a set of rules to worship Satan like IDK kidnapping and raping children and then say that the God of Gods is sending His Son to participate in that activity. Its insanity is what that is and is definitely not at all what the One True God would do, send His Son to follow the Laws that Satan Himself set out for his worship.

But I just picked one example, another is one that has already been mentioned but for some reason you and other who are AntiChrist have ignored in trying to argue this nonsense about Jesus being a Vegan.

What Holy Day unto Satan in your world view, was Jesus fully engaged in and then LEAD His Disciples to engage in?

Matt 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

Jesus 100% kept the Passover and He lead His Disciples to keep the Passover, seems completely rediculous to have Jesus out here leading His Disciples to keep a Holy Day in Honor of Satan dont you think?

Or who is Jesus Lord of according to Himself? He is the Lord of the Day created by the same God who Moses worshiped that was to be set apart to honor Him, the Sabbath. Why would Jesus call Himself Lord of the Sabbath if He was actually against the Sabbath? Wouldnt He be out here telling others that the God of the Sabbath is Satan and not to ever follow or keep it?

That IS what He would do if Satan was the one who created the Sabbath Day, but since Jesus IS the Son of the God, in fact since Jesus Himself created the Sabbath, He followed the Sabbath and then declared that He Himself is the Lord or the One who is over the Sabbath. That statement alone was stated to SHOW the Phariesses that He was indeed God Himself, the one that created the Sabbath.

And I also noticed your argument about Jesus breaking the Sabbath, did He break the actual Law of Moses or did He break the Tradition of the Pharisees which is recorded in the Talmud?

Here is where Jesus declares He is the God of the Sabbath, and their reaction, show me where He actually broke the Law of Moses and then please cite said Law in the Old Testament.

Luke 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.
14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.
15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

17 And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.

So what Law of Moses did Jesus break here, cite chapter and verse please. Are you going to believe the Pharisees that He broke the Law of Moses about healing conflating that with Work or are you going to listen to Jesus who knew the Law perfectly, because He created it, when He said that they or anyone can help an animal that is hurt on the Sabbath and it not be considered breaking the Sabbath or Work, therefore since He was only helping a person on the Sabbath by healing them, it is in fact NOT actually Work.

Also let me ask you this, what where the Priests doing on the Sabbath? Do you know? They were working, they were involved in all the Temple Services needed on the Sabbath day, such as Sacrifice, eating, keeping the fires going ect.

Do you realize that the Law never condemned them for Working on the Sabbath day? Why? Because they were in the midst of Work for God. What exactly do you think Jesus was doing when He healed this woman? He was doing "work" for Gods glory, or do you not pick this up in the text?

Either way you look at it, Jesus didnt actually break the Sabbath Law, He first off didnt do anything condemned or was considered real work as told not to do on the Sabbath, and second what He did do, was in Service of the Lord, hence ya know at the end where the woman glorified God and the people rejoiced.

The other time He was accused of doing something unlawful on the Sabbath, again Jesus schooled the person because they truly didnt understand the point of the Sabbath and added all sorts of extra things to the Law itself. Here is the other time and what Jesus said:

Matt 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.
2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.


So do you really understand what Jesus is displaying here? Did He really do something that truly broke the Law of Moses? Again cite me chapter and verse of what Law Jesus broke.

And how does Jesus respond? He cites David, which makes no sense if Jesus is here to reject the God of Abraham that created the Law of Moses and Sacrificial System, because David loved the God of Abraham and followed the Sacrificial System. In fact it was David who asked God if he could build Him a Temple, but that God told him that his son Solomon would be the one that would actually build the Temple that Jesus would come and teach in and bring His own Sacrifices too.

Anyhow, as illogical as it is for Jesus to be out here citing David if He was coming to be the Anti-Thesis to the God of the Old Testament, do you grasp what Jesus was saying to them here? He is comparing Himself to David, then compared His Disciples to the men David was leading then here is the main thing brother, He compared the shewbread which was made in honor of the God of the Old Testament, to the corn they ate, then He follows it up by saying He is the Lord of the Sabbath.

He proclaimed that if David was able to eat when needed and lead his people to eat when needed, even of the shewbread, and NOT be in violation of the Law because the High Priest ordained it, then Jesus who is ABOVE the High Priest, being the Lord of the Sabbath, and being more Righteous and Perfect than David had the authority to lead His Disciples to eat and they nor He was in actual violation of the Law.

Further more by comparing the Shewbread to the Corn He also in essences declaring a secondary way that He is God, because He has contexted the Natural Corn which would be created by God, to the Corn He was eating. In otherwords since Jesus Created the Corn it was to Him shewbread, because it was made in use for God.

All in all Jesus in multiple ways declared that He is God and not only God but the God of the Old Testament, the Creator God, who of course in your made up Religion is not the One True God. Jesus over and over again compares and equates Himself to the God of the Old Testament, who created the Sacrificial System you so despise. On top of that of course He showed that He was not in fact in violation of the Law.

Futhermore the real question would be why on Earth would Jesus care in one bit at all about trying to defend Himself against accusations of breaking the Sabbath Law if He never followed it or care about it or was against the God that created it?

That of course is the real deeper question I would love to hear you address, why is Jesus always defending Himself against the accusations of the Pharisees of breaking the Law of Moses, if He never wanted to or claimed to follow or cared about it?

Why wasnt Jesus just out here saying, you are right I am in violation of the Sabbath, because I dont follow it, I dont care about any of these Holy Days or Laws because they are created by Satan and I am here to destroy it all.

Yet never once do we see Jesus do anything remotely close to that do we? Nope not at all, instead we see Him continually adhering to the Law of Moses, celebrating Feasts created to Honor the God of the Old Testament, of which Holy Days ALL include Sacrificing Animals. Also we see Him defending Himself against accusations that He has broken the Law of Moses, do you think in the LEAST BIT that the Gentiles in Israel gave one crap about following the Law of Moses? Nope not one little crap, and if Jesus was the man you make Him out to be, then He too would not have given one crap about defending Himself from the Pharisees accusations, He would have told them straight up, you worship Satan in a Temple created for Satan, and follow Laws given by Satan, I am here to end it all!!!

Here is what Jesus actually says about the Law of Moses:

Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


Jesus said He came NOT to destroy the Law but to fulfill it, along with the Prophets, why on Earth would Jesus make this statement if the Law and the Prophets were of Satan? Why would Jesus say He is coming to FULFILL the Law and Prophets of Satan?

That makes no sense, if Jesus was against the God of the Old Testament that created the Law and the Prophets Jesus quotes here are His Prophets, then why would Jesus EVER declare He was there to follow them and fulfill what they wanted? That is so illogical it is beyond comprehension, but here you are trying to make that case right Art?

If Jesus was against the God that made the Law He would have declared right here, I have come to do away with the Law, it needs to be destroyed and it shall not stand any longer!!!

Here is what Jesus says of the Temple, which in your Anti Christ Religion would HAVE to have been built to Honor and Sacrifice to Satan:

John 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise

That house wasnt the house of Satan, it is the house of the one Jesus calls Father, so again you have a massive logical conundrum here. The Temple that Jesus was standing it was without a doubt created for one sole purpose to Worship and Honor the God of the Old Testament, and in that Temple it was commanded by that same God to carry out the Sacrifices you so hate, however Jesus walks into that specific Temple and says that that Temple is HIS FATHERS HOUSE. He clearly and definitively links Himself to worshiping, following and honoring the God of the Old Testament, the God in which ordained that Temple and was worshiped for eons within.

I doubt you'd be unfamiliar with the context of the Epistle to the Hebrews. All the more reason I wonder why you don't provide that context in your reasoning. This is the most Judaizing (Judaizing in the sense of "legitimizing the old law") text in the Gospels because it was written to the Hebrews who had become doubtful about Jesus being the Messiah. Its purpose is to convince them that Jesus' is the fulfillment of the Hebrew scriptures; that He is greater than Moses; that His new covenant supersedes the old; and to prevent the Hebrews from leaving the church and going back to their synagogues (and thus their old rituals). Even the most old-testamentary scripture of the New Testament tells us that the sacrificial system is over (no concessions are given here) and that the Mosaic Covenant, which according to the Hebrew scriptures was supposed to be eternal, is finished. This epistle is a genuine piece of proselytizing scripture portraying Jesus as a fulfiller of prophecy, not a destroyer, while in reality, their results are exactly the same, ie. the sacrificial system had come to an end.

Framing it as a fulfillment was the means by which the Hebrews were converted.
And yet not one word in your response negate the actual fact that Jesus came and did exactly what is laid out in those Scriptures. He DID fulfill it, of which I just quoted you Jesus Himself saying He was going to do.

Are you seriously this dense to think that all of the Symbolism we see in the New Testament that cites Old Testament ideas, symbols, fulfillment, are all written to mislead everyone concerning who Jesus was? Do you realize how utterly impossible that would be? Jesus has fulfilled 100's if not 1000's of Prophecies written by the Prophets of the Old Testament who all without a doubt Worshiped the God of Israel who created the Sacrificial System, of which all those Prophets actually followed those Laws. The details in which Christ fulfilled these things are absolutely impossible for man to dream up, then write down.

I mean look at the actual feast of the Passover, it all down to every little detail points to Jesus Christ. I am going to list just a few of the tiny little details that Christ fulfilled that are foreshadowed in the Passover Feast, in other words when you see these tiny details and look at the Life of Jesus Christ you will have to be willfully ignorant to think that Jesus DIDNT come purposefully to BE the Sacrifice Lamb which the Passover revolved around. In other words if you see these details and fulfillments and still believe that people made this up to "Judaize" or whatever other nonsense you care to state, then you are purposefully and willfully ignorant of the facts that no human in history could have written the Old Testament, then created a Feast that was practiced in a specific way for thousands of years, then create and make up a man Jesus and have that creation actually fulfill these things down to tiny little details in hopes of "Judizing" Him... Only by Him actually being and doing these things and then by He Himself revealing them to His Disiciples could anyone ever understand these things, and that is exactly what He did and does today via the Holy Spirit.

Here is what I mean:

The Lamb chosen for Passover Lamb was chosen 5 days before the Passover
Jesus came into the City to Proclaim Himself and His Ministry 5 days before He was Sacrificed, on the Passover

At 3pm on Passover the Priest would blow the Shophar, the moment that the Sacrifice was made, so that the people could contemplate their Sins.
Jesus died @ 3pm on Passover saying "It is finished" and Shophar was blown, at the same time the Veil of the Temple was torn symbolizing that the God of that Temple was no longer restricted to inside the Holiest of Holies.

50 days later after Passover is the Anniversary of the Giving of the Law
50 days later was Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out on men showing that the God of the Temple in Israel, had left that Temple and now was taking up and residing in those who believe in Jesus Christ.

During the Passover dinner called the Seder (which Jesus took part of as recorded in Scripture) there are 3 matzahs or unleavened bread (because Passover is the beginning of the Festival of Unleavened Bread which again all parts of that symbolize Christ as well) in a line which symbolize the Father Son and Holy Spirit.

The Middle One is BROKEN, then WRAPPED IN A WHITE CLOTH, and then HIDDEN.
Jesus who says He is the Bread of Life and then specifically used THIS Dinner to say:

Matt 28:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

Jesus body was BROKEN, then it was what?

Matt 27:59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,

It was wrapped in a WHITE CLOTH, and then what?

Matt 27:60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

It was HIDDEN, just like the Matzah...

The Matzah itself even represents Jesus Christ, the baked Unleavened piece of Bread, all of it Old Testament Symbolism that is FULFILLED in Christ Jesus.

First it is UNLEAVENED which Leaven is a Symbol of Sin, so we see that since Jesus is the Middle Matzah, it also symbolized that Jesus would be Sinless.

Second the Matzah is striped which again fulfills the Symbolism and reality of Christ in Scriptures and then before going to the cross itself:

Is 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

John 19:1 Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him.

2 And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe,
3 And said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they smote him with their hands.

The Matzah is also pierced, again fulfilling the Symbolism and reality of Christ in Scripture and what happened to Him on the Cross:

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

Here is a picture of the Matzah so you can see that it indeed has stripes and has been pierced:

MATZ.jpg

After the Seder meal the Matzah that was broken, wrapped in white cloth and hidden aka buried is brought back from its hiding place, aka it is Resurrected.
Jesus after He was broken for our Sins, took upon Himself Stripes for our Healing and was Pierced for our Transgression was then taken and wrapped in a Linen White Cloth and hidden in a Tomb, on the 3rd Day He was brought back from His hiding place in the Tomb, He was Resurrected.

And that is only SOME of the tiny little details of the Passover Dinner that 100% show Jesus Life, Death and Resurrection. The Passover itself was created by the God of the Old Testament who you call the Devil, the Traditions and the method of how they ate the Seder was put in place by the God of the Old Testament, who you call the Devil, and yet we can see clearly that every little aspect of that Holy Day, from the way the Lamb was chosen and when, to the day it was offered and what for, to the fact that the Blood of that Lamb was applied on the doors of Israel so that Death would PASSOVER them, to the bread they ate and the way the bread LOOKS, to the method of having 3 of them, one broken hidden and then brought back, all of it Jesus Christ came did EXACTLY the same thing and ON THE SAME DAY!!!

Yet you want me and others to believe this type of thing was made up by men? No one in all of History could ever possibly make these kind of connections and then have a man LITERALLY come and do these exact things!!!!

Jesus was Sinless, dont even YOU believe that? (Unleavened Bread)
Jesus is part of the Trinity, dont even YOU believe that? ( 3 Matazah)
Jesus body was Broken for our healing, dont even YOU believe that? ( Middle Matzah broken)
Jesus was pierced and beaten, dont even YOU believe that? ( Stripes and Pierced Matzah, they literally take a toothpick and pierce it)
Jesus was wrapped in White Linen for His Burial, dont even YOU believe that? (Matzah wrapped in White Cloth)
Jesus was hidden in a tomb, dont even YOU believe that? (Matzah hidden)
Jesus resurrected on the 3rd day, dont even YOU believe that? (Matzah brought back out after dinner)

I think if you are honest you are going to have to say that you believe all of these things, and it is not someone Judazing Jesus Christ, it is the FACT that Jesus is the Son of the God of the Old Testament, who SPECIFICALLY created Holy Days and Feast that were ALL supposed to point to Jesus Christ so that Israel would accept and believe on Him when He came!!!

So while I did use Hebrews because it shows us in Scirpture the most clear picture, I definitely do not need to quote Hebrews, I can simply show you Jesus in EVERY SINGLE HOLY DAY that the God of the Old Testament created, why? Because THAT God who you call the Devil PURPOSEFULLY created all these Holy Days to signify and show who and what the Christ was coming to do and why.

So if you really need more Scripture I am happy to cite more New Testament Scriptures that all say that Jesus came and fulfilled the Old Testament and was the Lamb of God sent to take Sins upon Himself (like the Sacrifices in the Old Testment did) and gave Himself as Sacrifice so that His Blood would cover us and Death would Passover us (like the Lamb Sacrificed on the Passover did for Israel)

Or if that isnt good enough I can literally take every single Holy Day that Israel celebrated and do what I did for Passover, show exactly how all of them SINGNIFY THE LIFE DEATH AND RESURRECTION OF CHRIST, which of course makes absolutely no sense if the God that created all of them was the Devil.

What you cant do is give a logical answer as to how all of this exists, or why every single New Testament Write especially Paul continually quoted from the Old Testament and constantly identifies Jesus as the Son of the Old Testament God.

Your only response is MeHeH CoNsPiRaCy JuDiAzeRs!!! Absolutely illogical logic which of course you will never truly try and sit ponder and try and rationalize because it causes wayy too much Cognitive Dissonance because we both know that if what I have said is True then you would HAVE to reject your made up Religion and actually accept the Fact that the Old Testament God is the God which Jesus calls Father, like you know when He declared in the Temple to the Old Testament God, that it is HIS FATHERS HOUSE...

Hebrews 9
13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
Well you ought to quote what I quoted:

Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


What exactly would you personally like me to mediate on? What exactly are you pointing this specific Scripture out for, in hopes of making a case for your point?

I fully understand exactly what that is saying, you however dont even grasp that you are acknowledging the usefulness of the Sacrifices under the Law of Moses, I mean you do get that if you want to use this verse to make any point, you are validating it, and then by validating it you must also accept that the blood of bulls and goats PURIFIED THE FLESH.

How could an act of Worship to Satan EVER purify anything at all? And of course it is always good to keep in context of the whole thing which is to show that the Law DID make Atonement or push forward peoples Sins, UNTIL Christ could come and TRULY take away all of our Sins forever.

But please since you do acknowledge that the Sacrifices of the Old Testament sanctified them and purified them, tell me in detail what point you are hoping to accentuate with this verse...

I will wait...

1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Lamb of God, without blemish and spot huh? Wonder Peter said it like that?

Ex 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

Oh thats right, the Passover Lamb that was Sacrificed so that Death would Passover them, commanded by the God of the Old Testament, had to be without blemish, wow...

And when exactly was this plan for Jesus to come give His Life as a Lamb without blemish to make Death Passover us laid out? Oh thats right by God BEFORE He created the World, but the god you believe in really didnt create this World now did he? Nope lets be honest your god is weak and stupid and has retarded kids who you claim is the God of this Creation. However Peter says the God of Creation is the God who foreordained for Christ to come and die for our Sins.

Just Judaizing huh? Thats your reasoning for why Peter proclaims all of this? Flies in the face of Gnosticism for sure, tell me did your boy Marcion include 1 Peter, written by the first person to Preach the Gospel in the Power and Spirit after Pentecost in his made up Canon? Oh thats right he didnt, wonder why lol

He did however include this, but I am sure if we had his butcherd version he would have cut this right out, cuz you know Paul believes that Jesus is the Son of the Old Testament God, without a doubt..

1 Corth 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Wait is that Paul calling Jesus our Passover Lamb? Is He actually connecting the Passover, that brutal Holy Day that Satan created, to Jesus Christ and calling Jesus the actual fulfillment of a Satanic Holy Day?

I can literally do this all day long, showing everyone that absolute insanity of your proclamation, and you have never and will never have any real way to explain away logically what I have written the only response is BuT ThEsE CoNsPiRaCy JuDiAzeRs!!

Wake up brother, repent of calling the Father of you and the Father of Jesus Satan, and acknowledge that the One True God, which Israel Worshiped PROPERLY in the Temple, laid out the Law of Moses and all the Holy Days, for the purpose of Foreshadowing of His Son Jesus Christ, and what His Life, Death and Resurrection would be and do. If you do that and believe on Christ then you can be Born Again, you will have the Holy Spirit and then you will see what every Saved person comes to see in ALL the Scriptures and you wont need to rip up and tear apart Gods Word, hoping to make it conform to your made up Religion...

I hope one day you come to your sense brother because I see how intelligent you are, but at the moment you are without a doubt a Wolf in Sheeps clothing, you make yourself out to be a Christian, and new Christians or others who havent been here for years may not discern the fact that you reject the God and Christ of Scriptures and you may influence them down the wrong path.

If only you come to the Truth you could be used by the One True God to preach the True Gospel, I hope one day you do that..

Anyhow, I wait for you to address any of the points I have brought up, maybe you will..








 

phipps

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John literally says Jesus has broken the law:

John 5
16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Jesus did not and would never break God's law. The law John was talking about was the rabbinic law. When you read John 5 from verse1 -18, we read about how Jesus healed a man at the pool of Bethesda. The Jews accused Jesus of healing someone on the Sabbath and telling him to take up his bed and walk. You've got to understand this was an ongoing issue that Jesus had with some Jews and their leaders.

Apart from this incident there are six other Sabbath controversies in the Gospels: (1) the incident of the disciples picking and eating grain in the grainfields (Matthew. 12:1-8; Mark 2:23-28; Luke 6:1-5); (2) the healing of the man with a withered hand (Matthew 12:9-14; Mark 3:1-6; Luke 6:6-11); (3) the healing of a crippled woman (Luke 13:10-17); (4) the healing of a man with dropsy (Luke 14:1-6); (5) a follow-up controversy about the healing of John 5:1-18 (John 7:19-24); and (6) the healing of a blind man (John 9:1-41).

The Jews added on rabbinic laws to the Sabbath commandment which weren't of God. They had 3000 man made rules about the Sabbath. In their desire to protect and to uphold the law, they built a hedge around the keeping of the Sabbath. They had written up chapter upon chapter concerning what it meant to keep the Sabbath. They made Sabbath a burden instead of a blessing.

The Pharisees thought man was made for the Sabbath and made up over .

They taught that you should not look in a mirror on the Sabbath because you might be tempted to pluck out a grey hair and that would be reaping.

They said that you could only eat and egg which had been laid on the Sabbath if you killed the chicken for Sabbath-breaking.

A donkey could be led out of the stable on the Sabbath, but the harness and saddle had to be placed on him the day before.

An egg could not be boiled on the Sabbath, either by normal means or by putting it near a hot kettle or by wrapping it in a hot cloth or by putting it in the hot sand outside.

If the lights were on when the Sabbath came (Sabbath began at sundown), you could not blow them out. If they had not been lit in time, then you could not light them.

It was unlawful to move furniture on the Sabbath. There was an exception to this in that you were allowed to move a ladder on the Sabbath, but you could only move it four steps.

It was unlawful to wear any jewellery or ornaments on the Sabbath, since this might be construed as carrying a burden.

It was not permitted to wear false teeth on the Sabbath (that must have been a hit in the synagogue services).

You were allowed to eat radishes on the Sabbath, but you were warned against dipping them into salt because you might leave them in the salt too long and pickle them and this was considered to be Sabbath-breaking. The Pharisees actually had discussions as to how long it took to pickle a radish.

It was fine to spit on a rock on the Sabbath, but you could not spit on the ground, because that made mud and mud was mortar, and that was work.

If a woman got mud on her dress, she was to wait until it had dried and then she was permitted to crumple the dress in her hands one time and crush it and then shake it out once. If that did not do the trick, then she had to wear it.

Jesus often battled with the Pharisees regarding Sabbath observance; He would heal somebody that day and then be accused of breaking the Sabbath. The Sabbath commandment certainly doesn’t forbid healing on the Sabbath. Jesus wanted to liberate the faith of Israel from the countless rabbinic traditions, and restore the Sabbath to its biblical simplicity. In Matthew 15:6 Jesus went so far as to say that these traditions “nullify the word of God”!

Jesus did not disregard the Sabbath commandment. How could He when He upheld the Ten Commandments everywhere else? But He laboured to set it free from misguided deception and place it in a more positive perspective so that it could indeed be a delight—as originally intended. (Isaiah 58:13).

Part of this is from my forum Who changed the Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday.
 
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@phipps and @Daciple

This response applies to both of you. I'll see if I can find time to respond to the rest.

What Holy Day unto Satan in your world view, was Jesus fully engaged in and then LEAD His Disciples to engage in?

Matt 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

Jesus 100% kept the Passover and He lead His Disciples to keep the Passover, seems completely rediculous to have Jesus out here leading His Disciples to keep a Holy Day in Honor of Satan dont you think?
The only thing that was kept is the name, and even then. But the entire meaning and symbol of Passover was changed from commemorating infanticide of enemies to commemorating Jesus' sacrifice for everyone (enemies included). No Jew who became Christian has celebrated what has happened in Egypt ever again. That in itself is a miracle.

God came not to destroy. God is not the Destroyer (El Shaddai). He turns evil or non-good things into Good. That's what happened to Passover and that's what happened to the sacrificial system. You could say he fulfilled the sacrificial foreshadowing of the OT, or you could say he stopped it. In both cases, blood sacrifice had ended.

Let me summarize the antithesis as follows in the hopes it makes sense to anyone reading it:

Satan demands Man to shed blood so he (Satan) gains eternal life.

vs

Christ sheds His blood to give mankind eternal life.


God took Evil and turned it into Good.


Or who is Jesus Lord of according to Himself? He is the Lord of the Day created by the same God who Moses worshiped that was to be set apart to honor Him, the Sabbath. Why would Jesus call Himself Lord of the Sabbath if He was actually against the Sabbath? Wouldnt He be out here telling others that the God of the Sabbath is Satan and not to ever follow or keep it?
He wouldn't for the very reason mentioned above. That he did not come to destroy but to make Good.

Christ is Lord over everything. Christ is Lord even over Satan. So where's the problem?

"Sabbath was made for man". There's no argument here. It's a basic truth statement, but no further value judgment is given. It's in "Man wasn't made for the sabbath" where lies the judgment and the teaching. So why would Jesus or His disciples follow the Sabbath according to the letter of the law if He knew man wasn't made for it and couldn't uphold it? Why woul He make such a law in the first place? So He could steal the show? Look here, I'll show you how it's done?

I don't believe that. What I do believe is that, despite the Law's functionality (with Law I mean the Decalogue) and its ability to expose sin, Jesus' teachings warn us of the Law. I'll try to illustrate with an example.

The Law says we can only cross the street at a crossroads when the pedestrian traffic light is green. If we choose to raise our kids that they can only cross when the light turns green, we are not teaching them to use their own senses and look out for dangerous traffic that might not be so law-abiding. Those who follow the Law in the strict sense are as those kids who've been taught to cross the street when the light is green. They are the kid that says to his friend "hey, you can't cross now, the light is still red!", when there's no vehicle in sight for miles. The pious follower of the Law is that same kid who crosses when the light turns green, disregarding the vehicle that has no intention of stopping, and gets mowed down. He complied completely with what he was told, but the letter of the Law just had him killed.

The Pharisees were so fixed on the Law that they didn't use their senses, their conscience, their moral code that is written on every man's heart. The Law blinded them from recognizing the right thing when Jesus healed on Sabbath. This isn't about technical, legalistic disputes about whether or not healing is working, or whether or not the disciples plucked grain to eat or to harvest. This is about the difference between using your god-given senses to distinguish good from evil or surrendering your fate to a dictate. But worse, it's the Pharisees who had written that law (see Priestly Source) and who teach that law. They're the ones saying you should only cross when the light is green. They are the blind who lead the blind.
 
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Todd

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The Law says we can only cross the street at a crossroads when the pedestrian traffic light is green. If we choose to raise our kids that they can only cross when the light turns green, we are not teaching them to use their own senses and look out for dangerous traffic that might not be so law-abiding. Those who follow the Law in the strict sense are as those kids who've been taught to cross the street when the light is green. They are the kid that says to his friend "hey, you can't cross now, the light is still red!", when there's no vehicle in sight for miles. The pious follower of the Law is that same kid who crosses when the light turns green, disregarding the vehicle that has no intention of stopping, and gets mowed down. He complied completely with what he was told, but the letter of the Law just had him killed.

The Pharisees were so fixed on the Law that they didn't use their senses, their conscience, their moral code that is written on every man's heart. The Law blinded them from recognizing the right thing when Jesus healed on Sabbath. This isn't about technical, legalistic disputes about whether or not healing is working, or whether or not the disciples plucked grain to eat or to harvest. This is about the difference between using your god-given senses to distinguish good from evil or surrendering your fate to a dictate. But worse, it's the Pharisees who had written that law (see Priestly Source) and who teach that law. They're the ones saying you should only cross when the light is green. They are the blind who lead the blind.
This is probably the most logical and coherent explanation of the law of God, I've read on this forum.
 
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This is probably the most logical and coherent explanation of the law of God, I've read on this forum.
You know, this may sound silly, but when I finished writing this, I thought of you for some reason, like you were sitting in the back of my head and my subconscience pushed you to the front because maybe it knew this is where we would converge in spite of our differences. Funny that.

Anyway, don't mind my hallucinations, and thanks for the support!
 

Todd

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You know, this may sound silly, but when I finished writing this, I thought of you for some reason, like you were sitting in the back of my head and my subconscience pushed you to the front because maybe it knew this is where we would converge in spite of our differences. Funny that.

Anyway, don't mind my hallucinations, and thanks for the support!
Not silly at all LOL! love it!

I'll say the same thing about you that I said about the JAHtruth dudes. I may not agree with everything you believe and post, but your attitude/spirit is much preferable to most of the fundamentalist/mainstream Christians on this forum. Fruit of the Spirit is the true test of any belief, so lately I've been reading and contemplating your posts with a much more open mind.
 

phipps

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Christ is Lord over everything. Christ is Lord even over Satan. So where's the problem?

"Sabbath was made for man". There's no argument here. It's a basic truth statement, but no further value judgment is given. It's in "Man wasn't made for the sabbath" where lies the judgment and the teaching. So why would Jesus or His disciples follow the Sabbath according to the letter of the law if He knew man wasn't made for it and couldn't uphold it? Why woul He make such a law in the first place? So He could steal the show? Look here, I'll show you how it's done?

I don't believe that. What I do believe is that, despite the Law's functionality (with Law I mean the Decalogue) and its ability to expose sin, Jesus' teachings warn us of the Law. I'll try to illustrate with an example.

The Law says we can only cross the street at a crossroads when the pedestrian traffic light is green. If we choose to raise our kids that they can only cross when the light turns green, we are not teaching them to use their own senses and look out for dangerous traffic that might not be so law-abiding. Those who follow the Law in the strict sense are as those kids who've been taught to cross the street when the light is green. They are the kid that says to his friend "hey, you can't cross now, the light is still red!", when there's no vehicle in sight for miles. The pious follower of the Law is that same kid who crosses when the light turns green, disregarding the vehicle that has no intention of stopping, and gets mowed down. He complied completely with what he was told, but the letter of the Law just had him killed.

The Pharisees were so fixed on the Law that they didn't use their senses, their conscience, their moral code that is written on every man's heart. The Law blinded them from recognizing the right thing when Jesus healed on Sabbath. This isn't about technical, legalistic disputes about whether or not healing is working, or whether or not the disciples plucked grain to eat or to harvest. This is about the difference between using your god-given senses to distinguish good from evil or surrendering your fate to a dictate. But worse, it's the Pharisees who had written that law (see Priestly Source) and who teach that law. They're the ones saying you should only cross when the light is green. They are the blind who lead the blind.
"Sabbath was made for man". There's no argument here. It's a basic truth statement, but no further value judgment is given. It's in "Man wasn't made for the sabbath" where lies the judgment and the teaching. So why would Jesus or His disciples follow the Sabbath according to the letter of the law if He knew man wasn't made for it and couldn't uphold it? Why woul He make such a law in the first place? So He could steal the show? Look here, I'll show you how it's done?
Before I respond to this post, I hope its clear that Jesus DID NOT break any of God's law. Just man made laws that don't count. When John wrote the words "Jesus broke the Sabbath," in John 5:18 he was describing Jesus' actions from the Pharisees' perspective. The Bible tells us Jesus obeyed His Father completely and did not break any commandments. John 15:10, "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love."

Now on to this post. I will explain the "Sabbath was made for man" first because I don't think you understand it.

When Jesus said that the "Sabbath was made for man," He was saying that the Sabbath was made to be a blessing to mankind as were all of the Ten Commandments. Jesus is also clarifying that man was made first and then the Sabbath was made afterwards for his well-being. God did not make the Sabbath and then man to serve this day. The Sabbath was made to serve mankind and to be for their benefit as well as being a sign that we are God's children, and it is Him that sanctifies us when we keep His day holy as He commanded.

"Man wasn't made for the sabbath". Jesus was saying to the Pharisees that the Sabbath was made for the benefit of all mankind and not a day of legalistic rules that turn the day into a burden as the Pharisees had done. Jesus was also pointing out the priorities when it came to Sabbath keeping. In Matthew 12:10-12 Jesus said to the Pharisees,
“What man among you would not pull his sheep out of a hole on the Sabbath? And how much more important is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” Thus we see that the priority and importance is the wellbeing of mankind. The Pharisees had alleged that it was work to pick ears of corn on the Sabbath even when one was hungry and claimed it was not lawful. But Jesus clarified in Matthew 12:12 that when there is a life sustaining need, that it is lawful and not breaking the Sabbath. Is it a blessing if we are to go hungry? What about picking an apple off the tree for lunch on the Sabbath? It was lawful for Jesus to be picking corn for a meal on the Sabbath. Eating is a necessity and the Sabbath would not be a blessing to man if they had to go hungry would it? In the beginning of the very next chapter we find Jesus emphasizing this point to the Pharisees saying, “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” Mark 3:4.

Mark 2:28,
"Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.” Jesus declared to the Pharisees that since He created the Sabbath and is Lord of it, He has the right to determine what is appropriate for the Sabbath not the Pharisees. In Jesus' day before He died on the cross, the Church was the Jewish nation and after His death until He returns, its the Christian Church. The Church does not have the right to load the Sabbath with oppressive restrictions as did the Pharisees, or to attempt to transfer its sacredness from one day to another. Both are devices of Satan to lure men away from the true spirit of Sabbath observance. Man does not have the right to tamper with the day of God's choosing whether he is Pharisee or a Christian.

I don't believe that. What I do believe is that, despite the Law's functionality (with Law I mean the Decalogue) and its ability to expose sin, Jesus' teachings warn us of the Law. I'll try to illustrate with an example.

The Law says we can only cross the street at a crossroads when the pedestrian traffic light is green. If we choose to raise our kids that they can only cross when the light turns green, we are not teaching them to use their own senses and look out for dangerous traffic that might not be so law-abiding. Those who follow the Law in the strict sense are as those kids who've been taught to cross the street when the light is green. They are the kid that says to his friend "hey, you can't cross now, the light is still red!", when there's no vehicle in sight for miles. The pious follower of the Law is that same kid who crosses when the light turns green, disregarding the vehicle that has no intention of stopping, and gets mowed down. He complied completely with what he was told, but the letter of the Law just had him killed.

The Pharisees were so fixed on the Law that they didn't use their senses, their conscience, their moral code that is written on every man's heart. The Law blinded them from recognizing the right thing when Jesus healed on Sabbath. This isn't about technical, legalistic disputes about whether or not healing is working, or whether or not the disciples plucked grain to eat or to harvest. This is about the difference between using your god-given senses to distinguish good from evil or surrendering your fate to a dictate. But worse, it's the Pharisees who had written that law (see Priestly Source) and who teach that law. They're the ones saying you should only cross when the light is green. They are the blind who lead the blind.
I understand the point you're trying to make but biblically God is particular about how His commandments are obeyed. That was the main reason for His contention with the Pharisees over the Sabbath. The Pharisees were not observing the Sabbath as God told them to, they were observing their own laws that they'd added on the Sabbath commandment. The Bible tells us that obedience pleases God (John 8:29). Of course it goes without saying, we have to have faith and love and have pleasure in obeying God and His law. I'll let scripture do most of the talking here.

Numbers 32:11,12, "‘Surely none of the men who came up from Egypt, from twenty years old and above, shall see the land of which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, because they have not wholly followed Me, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh, the Kenizzite, and Joshua the son of Nun, for they have wholly followed the Lord.’

Matthew 4:4, "But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

Matthew 19:17, "So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

John 15:14, "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you."


God’s people in Old Testament times learned the hard way. Those who left Egypt for the Promised Land were a multitude in number. Of this group, only two, Caleb and Joshua, fully followed the Lord, and they alone entered Canaan. The others died in the wilderness. Jesus said we are to live by “every word” that proceeds from His Mouth. There is not one commandment too many or one commandment too few. They are all important!

What Jesus did was do good on the Sabbath which is lawful. He said it too in Matthew 12:10-12. It always good to do good whether its the Sabbath or not. That is something the Pharisees didn't seem to understand. Their legalism for their man made rules and outward religion that left them devoid of remorse and love blinded them. However Jesus obeyed the commandments completely.

Your example doesn't really explain how its impossible to obey God's commandments in our own power, but through Christ we can and must if we want to meet Jesus again and be with Him forever. A person's entire nature is changed, so he/she finds doing God's will a pleasure. The character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in them.

Matthew 19:26, "“With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Philippians 4:13, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."


When God gives a command He desires one response: obedience from the heart (like Abraham) not discussion and argument and alternative suggestions (like Lot's wife). Why does God want obedience from the heart? Because the heart is where He writes His law when a person is born again (Hebrews 8:10). If God puts His law in the heart, what else would He want but obedience from the heart?

We don't get to pick and choose how we obey the Sabbath or the rest of the commandments. The Bible tells us how. Many will think they are obeying God's commandments while they will be doing what suits them like the Pharisees who were convinced they were right. Matthew 7:21-23 says, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ "
 
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Daciple

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The only thing that was kept is the name, and even then. But the entire meaning and symbol of Passover was changed from commemorating infanticide of enemies to commemorating Jesus' sacrifice for everyone (enemies included). No Jew who became Christian has celebrated what has happened in Egypt ever again. That in itself is a miracle.
You say this because you are not really a Christian. Go to a Christian Church with real preachers and watch just how often the Passover, Egypt, and everything else included in the Exodus is preached, taught, celebrated, prayed and sung about. If you actually went and were around real Christians in real Christian services full of Born Again Christians who are full of the Holy Spirit you would realize rather quickly how moronic your summary and statement is overall.

God came not to destroy. God is not the Destroyer (El Shaddai). He turns evil or non-good things into Good. That's what happened to Passover and that's what happened to the sacrificial system. You could say he fulfilled the sacrificial foreshadowing of the OT, or you could say he stopped it. In both cases, blood sacrifice had ended.
Well you actually are being hypocritical in your statement here, according to YOU, God did come to destroy. To destroy the Law, destroy the Sacrificial System, destroy the Temple ect. Whether you are willing to admit it or not, there is a major and distinct difference between fulfilling something and destroying something.

To fulfill something is to enter into an agreement to engage in an act with a promised or agreed upon end. Destroying something is coming to attack and end something most likely that you do NOT agree with nor have entered into an agreement for the end result.

Jesus FULFILLED the Law and the Prophet, which means that He entered into an agreement to act out the ENTIRE PURPOSE of the Law and Prophets with an agreed upon end from both the Creator of the Agreement ( The one who instituted and created the Law and the Prophets) and the one who entered into the agreement for the agreed upon outcome.

Just as if I created a Contract that at the end I stated once you do this and that then all debts for everyone is paid forever. Do you see that the Contract I created was created with an END that I understood and created and set out for it to be the OUTCOME once the stipulations were fulfilled?

That is actually what the Law INCLUDED in its creation, God, who is Jesus, created the Law with the stipulation that once it was FULFILLED it would automatically bring about the end of debts for everyone who believed.

As I tried to point out over and over to you, the Life Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ was planned and agreed upon before the creation of the World. Elsewhere in the Bible it specifically says that Jesus Himself created ALL THINGS whether visible or invisible, that sir includes the Law and the Sacrificial System. The only logical position when taking this all into account is that Jesus and the Father made a Contract before the beginning of all Creation.

That Contract went something like this, I God will bring into the World the Law which shows my express Perfection and Righteousness so that all can understand what Perfection is and will at the same time show everyone that they are NOT Righteous whatsoever, that they are Sinners. In this Contract I will make a System of Forgiveness so that people will not stand condemned before me because they are full of Sin.

However I will send my Son who agreed before Creation to enter into the World and live out the Law, never breaking it or ever Sinning, so that He can FULFILL the Law, FULFILL the Sacrificial System with the sole intent purpose of this System to culminate in bringing Redemption to all people if they only believe in Him fulfilling this Contract we both agreed upon before the creation of the World.

That is called FULFILLMENT of a Contract.

Your ideology would be to have Jesus DESTROY something He didnt agree with to being.

Like I said it is completely illogical to have Satan set up a System that was PURPOSEFULLY created to be FULFILLED with the end aspect of said FULFILLMENT to bring all men to Salvation if they believe.

I need to point out two things to you real quick, the first is that the Prophets, who worshiped the God of Israel who you claimed is the Devil, outright specifically state that THAT SAME GOD is going to end the Sacrificial System and establish another System. Why would Satan tell his own Prophets to do this? Why would the Old Testament be crammed pack with Scriptures that all allude to the end of the Sacrificial System being fulfilled in the Messiah to come? Here is what I mean:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

So here we have the Prophet Jeremiah who without a doubt worshiped the God that created the Law and was honored during the Passover, and what does he write about that God?

That God, the one who SPECIFICALLY in these Scriptures is said to have made a covenant with and by HIS HAND pulled the people out of Egypt, will in the future make a NEW COVENANT. That God specifically says that He is going to END the Covenant HE set up when HE pulled them out of Egypt and HE HIMSELF is going to create and bring them into a NEW COVENANT, in which HE will forgive and remember no more their Sins.

The Law this God created, and the Prophets that this God sent, which is the God that pulled Israel out of Egypt and created the Passover, had it INCLUDED into it the method in which it was to be FULFILLED when HE sent the Messiah to END it and establish HIS NEW COVENANT.

None of this makes sense if the Devil created the Law and the Prophets, what does makes sense is that God of the Old Testament is the God that pulled Israel out of Egypt, created the Law to be fulfilled by His Son so that He could then establish a New Covenant.

The second thing I want to point out comes from the Scriptures I already quoted in Hebrews. I dont care what your perspective is concerning why it was written (to convert the Jews) what I want you to see is the FACT that the writer is correct in what he says concerning the Testaments. The method in which the Old Testament which was given to Moses by the God that set up the Sacrificial System ect, is the EXACT SAME WAY the New Covenant was created.

Again why would the Real God model His Covenant with people in EXACTLY the same way that the Devil in your view created his Covenant? He would do the OPPOSITE, but again the method of Covenants were created and ensured by the exact same method, why? Because it is the SAME GOD that established both:

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he (JESUS) is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

The Law, the Old Covenant, which was given by the God that brought Israel out of Egypt, was made and established and put into force by Blood. The New Covenant followed in the exact same way, and was made, established and put into force by Blood. Why would the Real God follow the Devils patter in establishing Covenants? Makes zero sense, and regardless of Hebrews being written to convert Jews, it is a fact that Jesus made, established and put into force the New Covenant by means of Blood.

Matt 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins
.

Please explain in detail why your god is following after the Devil and establishing his promises in the exact same way to us as the Devil does...

Satan demands Man to shed blood so he (Satan) gains eternal life.

vs

Christ sheds His blood to give mankind eternal life.
Except that is not what the Sacrificial System stated or ever did what it really did was this:

God created a method by way of Sacrifice for Man not to be condemned in His Sin and thus gain Eternal Life

then

God sends His Son to fulfill the Law and Sacrificial System so that Man can not be condemned in his Sin and gain Eternal Life by Faith and Grace.

But again why did Jesus need to come and die and give His Blood for Mankind if He wasnt entering into an agreed upon Contract with the Creator of said Contract?

Couldnt your god redeem mankind in a way that wouldnt call for Jesus to be bound by the Devil, follow the Devils Laws, and give Himself in the manner in which the Devil intended for his benefit?

Again it is so utterly illogical that I can not make hide nor hair of this weak god you believe in. If your god was above the creator of this World or the creator of the Law of Moses ect, and was outside of it, then why on Earth does you weak god need to abide by these other lesser gods demands to save anyone?

Why is your god going to the little weak god of Israel of all the gods in the world (as there must be other gods in your ideology besides just Israels god) and abiding by his laws for redemption of mankind? Why is your god sending his son into the Hebrew Nation when there are dozens of other nations with their own gods representative of whatever god you say is over Israel and not abiding by their laws for redemption? Why is your god choosing Israel, why is your god making himself out to be the Messiah that the God of Israel who created the Laws and the Passover ect stated by His Worshipers would come and fulfill the everything in a specific manner and then by the same method the Old Covenant was establish, establish the New Covenant?

There are so many things one has to over look to accept your premise its inconceivable to me that anyone believes it, which is why its of no wonder that you are literally the only person in History that follows your made up Religion...

Christ is Lord even over Satan. So where's the problem?
The problem is everything that I am laying out, which you really are not addressing, it makes no sense for your god to follow the God of Israels method of redemption if your god is outside of and Lord over the God of Israel. It makes no sense for the One True God to come and say yeah I am Lord of the Sabbath, if the Sabbath is explicitly created for worship of Satan. The One True God would be above trying to follow and accept and live by Laws established by Satan himself.

Just as I pointed out before, if the Law of Satan was to r*pe Children then you really think the Son of God would come down and say yep those Laws are good and then outright follow them, and be out here Raping Children? Of course not, He would denounce them, not follow and endorse them man, and He wouldnt continually call the God of Israel God and you know deep down that is the Truth.

Matt 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living
.

What God is it that Jesus is talking about here? The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, which is the God that instituted the Law and here is Jesus condoning Him as God. Makes no sense man...

Matt 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind
.

Jesus is specifically asked what is the Greatest Commandment in the Law, aka the Law of Moses that according to you, Satan created. Is Jesus answer, there is nothing good in the Law its terrible and of Satan!!!

No it is to literally QUOTE the Law and then what does He say is the actual frame of the Entire Law built on?

Matt 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets


How much of the Law and Prophets are hung on the 2 commandments Jesus quoted from the Law of Moses? All of it, not one bit is WRONG, its all founded on and an aspect of Loving God, and Loving your neighbour. However you tell us the Law is hung and created by Satan, that it is an evil and terrible thing...

Jesus doesnt agree with you Art...

It's in "Man wasn't made for the sabbath" where lies the judgment and the teaching. So why would Jesus or His disciples follow the Sabbath according to the letter of the law if He knew man wasn't made for it and couldn't uphold it? Why woul He make such a law in the first place? So He could steal the show? Look here, I'll show you how it's done?

I don't believe that.
I dont believe that either and as Phipps pointed out, the problem is you dont understand what Jesus was actually teaching here. You really really really dont think that Jesus rested on the Sabbath? That Jesus really didnt go to the Temple to preach, teach, pray and worship God on the Sabbath day? I mean you know the Scripture says continually THAT is exactly what He was doing right. So the purpose of the Sabbath was for Man to Rest, it was created for that purpose, to bless and help them.

You are willfully ignorant to believe that Jesus WASNT observing the Sabbath as it was intended:

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

His Custom which means what He normally did, was to what Art? Go into the Synagogue on the Sabbath day and He began to teach. Here is Jesus doing EXACTLY what the Law says the Sabbath is about, resting from Work and setting aside the day to Honor the Lord, to pray and teach and worship.

The verses quoted in the prior post were to show that Jesus DIDNT actually break the Law, because He didnt, He just didnt keep the added garbage that the Pharisees added that turned the Sabbath from a day of Rest and Blessing into a Burden.

So why did Jesus make it His Custom to follow the Sabbath if the Sabbath holds no value to Him? Why is He in the Temple quoting the Prophet Isaiah?

Go read that verse in the Old Testament it actually says the Spirit of the Lord YHWH is upon me, so here we have Jesus following perfectly the Law that "Satan" created then He starts quoting from the Old Testament and the verse He quotes is Him literally declaring that HE is the FULFILLMENT of this Prophecy. That the Spirit of the Lord YHWH is upon Him, according to you we have Jesus in the middle of a Temple dedicated to Satan declaring that Satans Spirit is upon Him, however He and the Spirit of Satan are here to preach good tithings, free captives, and open prisons.

Again none of this makes sense in your made up Religion of Satan being the creator and architect of the Law and the Old Testament Prophets..

Jesus did follow the Sabbath to the letter of the Law in which it was actually written and meant, the Pharisees who were accusing Him all the time werent actually following the Law as it was truly laid out, they added to it and Jesus didnt follow THAT why? Because Jesus the Christ wasnt here to follow the Laws of Man or the Devil He was here for follow the Law of His Father to show and prove that He is the unblemished Lamb worthy to take up our Sins on the Cross...

The Law says we can only cross the street at a crossroads when the pedestrian traffic light is green. If we choose to raise our kids that they can only cross when the light turns green, we are not teaching them to use their own senses and look out for dangerous traffic that might not be so law-abiding. Those who follow the Law in the strict sense are as those kids who've been taught to cross the street when the light is green. They are the kid that says to his friend "hey, you can't cross now, the light is still red!", when there's no vehicle in sight for miles. The pious follower of the Law is that same kid who crosses when the light turns green, disregarding the vehicle that has no intention of stopping, and gets mowed down. He complied completely with what he was told, but the letter of the Law just had him killed.

The Pharisees were so fixed on the Law that they didn't use their senses, their conscience, their moral code that is written on every man's heart. The Law blinded them from recognizing the right thing when Jesus healed on Sabbath. This isn't about technical, legalistic disputes about whether or not healing is working, or whether or not the disciples plucked grain to eat or to harvest. This is about the difference between using your god-given senses to distinguish good from evil or surrendering your fate to a dictate. But worse, it's the Pharisees who had written that law (see Priestly Source) and who teach that law. They're the ones saying you should only cross when the light is green. They are the blind who lead the blind.
Here is the problem with your scenario, do you think that the Law is WRONG in saying that we should not cross unless the light is Green? Is the person who made that Law Evil for making it Law to not cross unless it is Green?

In your ridiculous worldview you want to say the person who made the Law saying not to Cross the Light unless Green is Evil, and he is to blame for everything and that the Law he made up is actually one that harms us. The fact is, that Law, do not Cross unless Green is 100% righteous, and it was and is created for our protection, the one who created did it for a Good Purpose, even if we feel like it is stupid to wait until the light is Green.

I can understand your ideology concerning the Pharisees and the Light, however I view it more of this, the Pharisees said cross when the Light is Green and then said but you can only Cross if its Green between 2-230 PM, and then only on Tuesday, and then only if you hop on one foot, and then only your opposite foot, and then only barefoot. They take what is actually Good and Righteous and ADDED TO IT, so instead of the Law being something that was benefiting us or them, it became a rigorous burden that made it IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to get across the Street.

In our conversation concerning Jesus, the Sabbath and the Pharisees, the Sabbath is the Green Light, it is Righteous and Perfect and Jesus followed it 100%. The Pharisees came in and ADDED to the Law, made it only that we can Cross on Tues at 2PM on the wrong foot barefoot, and Jesus was like nah fam Im just gonna do what the Law actually says and not worry about you because I actually created the Law, I am the Lord of the Sabbath and I know that youre on some nonsense right now. And then Jesus crossed the street on Green and didnt get hit...

No matter how you cut it, the Green Light is Good, just as the Law is Good, the person who created the Law of the Green Light is Good as well, just as the God that created the Law of the Sabbath is Good and Jesus crossed only when it is Green cuz He understands the Law is Good, just as He followed the Sabbath because it is Good, He just didnt care about following the Laws of Men that went against His Fathers Law.

Which again only makes sense if the Law is Good and not from Satan, if the Law is Bad and from Satan then He wouldnt care at all to follow it and would proclaim that going on the Green Light is bad, but what did Jesus actually say about following the Law vs Men (we could insert Satans Law here)

Mark 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Here is Jesus talking with the Pharisees, and He straight up rejects THEIR Commandments calling them of men and reinforces the NEED to follow the Commandments of God and then goes as far as specifically identifying Moses with the Commandments of God.

This again shows what my overall point has been concerning your position, which I truly do not think you will go back and contextualize each of the examples and rebut the obvious problems your worldview has concerning how Jesus actually acts, believes, says and worships. This goes to show that Jesus WOULD NOT be following the Laws of Man, He didnt care about that, He didnt come to follow them, and He definitely would NOT follow them if they went against His Father or Gods True Commandments.

You once again would have Jesus defending the Law that Satan created as He continually follows it, in the midst of literally saying that He will NOT follow the Laws of Man that stand in defiance of His Gods Laws. Makes no sense in your made up Religion, the only way this makes sense is if Jesus actually believed that God made the Law of Moses, inclusive of the Law that states parents ought to stone their children if they curse them (which you and I know you wouldnt accept as being of your false god El) and that He was here to defend and follow it, while specifically showing that He is NOT here to follow any Law that isnt of His God or goes against His God.

The Law of Moses was created by the One True God, and it proclaimed His Perfectness and Righteousness and showed the method in which The Father and Son had entered into a Contract by which Man would be Redeemed. The Son who is God and created the Law or Contract with God the Father, then stepped down from Heaven to fulfill His end of the Contract, showing Himself Perfect and Righteous and Worthy to be Sacrifice for our Sins and then by His Death not only made Atonement for our Sins but also ratified the New Covenant or Contract just as by Death the Old Covenant was radified.

That is what makes sense because that is the Truth, what you preach makes no sense because it is not the Truth but a Lie...
 
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You say this because you are not really a Christian. Go to a Christian Church with real preachers and watch just how often the Passover, Egypt, and everything else included in the Exodus is preached, taught, celebrated, prayed and sung about. If you actually went and were around real Christians in real Christian services full of Born Again Christians who are full of the Holy Spirit you would realize rather quickly how moronic your summary and statement is overall.
Well, I can't speak for the Judeo-Christians of the Anglosaxon ilk, but Passover in the Catholic and Orthodox traditions remembers Jesus' gift to mankind, not what happened in Egypt.

You had to of course cite Luke 4, to support Jesus obeying sabbath, because that was right at the beginning of Jesus' ministry, right after Jesus' trial in the desert. Jesus and the Logos became one during His baptism. Everything that came before it is Jesus following the traditions of the people he grew up with. Everything that came after was basically Jesus consistently doing things on sabbath that were deemed in violation of the law by those who were deemed experts of the law, the Pharisees.

I see your rebuttal to the green light analogy, but you're basically reiterating the interpretation of Jesus and the Sabbath that I tried to refute, ie. that it's not a legalistic issue where we discuss the details of certain laws, it's about strict / blind obedience to Law in general. The Light is not intrinsically good. It's what helps us from not being run over by a truck, but this is not what makes us come alive. It doesn't force us to comply if it isn't our will to do so. We make the Law of God come alive by actually seeing what is the right thing to do and not just blindly following dictates.

With regards to the rest, it all boils down to you still arguing from faith in the infallibility of the scriptures. As long as you don't take into account the Torah's composition in its historical context and distinguish El from Baal, this debate will remain circular. As long as we don't agree that the Priestly Code is a later addition to old testament scripture where the priestly scribes had inserted their priestly interpretations of holiness and ritual purity and elevated the role of the Aaronic priesthood, the Levites, that means, the Kenite priests, those of the tribe of Cain, we will just have to part ways agreeing to disagree.

I've explained the distinction between El and YHVH before on numerous occasions, but you insist on ignoring this elemental aspect of the Old Testament, that El, who is God (without Christ), and Baal, whose portion became the people Jacob, are consistently in strife. The Law that I equated to the Decalogue is not the law we find elsewhere (I'm not claiming the Decalogue is from Satan). Leviticus and sacrificial law was written by the Judaean priests under Persian rule, and possibly started during the Babylonian exile where they incorporated Babylonian customs. Shabbat originates with the Babylonian sabattu where sacrifices were offered to Nimrod, after all. The cult during the Second Temple period following this scriptural and doctrinal development is marked by worship of Baal, whether his name was Ninurta, Shulman or Yahweh. It is as Paul said before the fall of Jerusalem, that this world is ruled by Satan.

You say "my God" is weak, because He doesn't simply undo the sinful customs imposed upon men, but, without claiming to know the mystery of how God operates, I don't think that's how "my God" is. We have free will because only out of free will can true faith be born. This means we also have to bear the consequences of free will. God does not express His love for us by taking away our free will and submit it to His, but by longing for us to voluntary return in union with Him.

Secondly, you say weak, but God didn't, in a-beast-of-revelation-like fashion, bring down fire from heaven to burn the sinners and disbelievers. He came to us in our image, just as He had created us in His, and he defeated the archons of this world as a man. You call that weakness, I call it God in all His glory, to undertake such a quest in such humility and passion, in mortal form, and show us the way to overcome the powers that bind us to this realm by means of sin and make sure that we were saved in Jesus' sacrifice if only we accepted His grace. That, to counter man's blood sacrifices to the archons so they would have eternal life, He would bleed for us to give us eternal life. If only you had my eyes, you would see the beauty of it and would never question it again.
 
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