Jerusalem is the capital of Israel

Kung Fu

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Muslims can't divorce ourselves from jewish/israelite history though. Forget palestinians, the israelites first drove out the caananites
You can compare the caananites to the native americans....and you would have a very solid argument here..

except this was endorsed by our God, by Allah, the establishment of Israel is all over the Quran and a celebrated event.
Except we have no real clue as to what really happened seeing as there has been tampering with the older scriptures. I don't believe for a second that the Most High would ever give an order for a people that were regular people and not transgressors (in the sense that they mock God and or oppress people) to be all killed off.

I don't believe the way the OT tells the story of the Canaanites and Israel to be absolutely correct.
 

The Zone

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I take my reputation seriously. I will not always please the whole, but I do try and respect people and treat them with dignity. As you can see, I am not the backing down type, but fortunately, I generally control the impulses. I will take up for others who I feel are slighted from time to time and my pet peeve is unnecessary rudeness in the air we all share -- although I am not above wallowing at times in spirited banter.
 

SpektaCoolAir

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So this is considered the second house? Meaning it was high on the list of preferred places to pray? I am well aware of agendas and not blind to that, I just wanted to put what is happening right now into a more immediate context. Do you or others here feel that if an embassy is built in the city, that it will lead to an attempted ultimate banishment of Muslims? If so, I can only see war happening in some way or form. But do you see war just from the embassy alone in your opinion?
it's a very special place - so yes it is THE place - if you want - in that particular area to pray in.

it is also one of the places where you will be safe from the dajjal (anti-christ) & his corruption - as pointed out here:

Ahmad (23139) narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have been warning you about the Dajjaal who has one abraded eye.” [The narrators] said: I think he said the left eye. “He will have with him mountains of bread and rivers of water, and his sign will stay in the earth for forty mornings, and his authority will reach everywhere. He will not come to four mosques: the Ka’bah, the Mosque of the Prophet, al-Masjid al-Aqsa and the Mosque of al-Toor (Sinai).” This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by Shu’ayb al-Arna’oot in "Tahqeeq al-Musnad."

the embassy will lead to what it is intended to - which will be of no benefit to any palestinian (muslim or not) - but of course the emphasis is on the muslims in particular.

i see a lot of protests & uproar coming - that will lead to some bloody outcome - but that's the plan though.
 
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Except we have no real clue as to what really happened seeing as there has been tampering with the older scriptures. I don't believe for a second that the Most High would ever give an order for a people that were regular people and not transgressors (in the sense that they mock God and or oppress people) to be all killed off.

I don't believe the way the OT tells the story of the Canaanites and Israel to be absolutely correct.
The narrative is that the caananites became deeply sinful and so had to be removed and that's part of why God chose Israel to remove them.
Moses right to David and Solomon engaged in wars against them so you have a line of prophets engaging in this 'ethnic cleansing'.

Forget all of those narratives for a moment
the Quran itself clearly speaks in the present tense and confirms the Torah as 'a guidance and light'.
The prophet SAW held the Torah in his hands, placed it on a cushion and said 'I believe in you'

the tampering of the Torah argument occurs because Ezra the scribe had to rewrite the torah, but if the torah was indeed not authentic after that, why did these prophets come at later times and not confirm that? inc Jesus?

Abu Hurairah r.a. says that the Jews used to read the Torah in Hebrew and interpret it in Arabic for Muslims, whereupon the Prophet s.a.w. instructed: “Don’t endorse the statements of the people of scripture nor reject them”

(Sahih Bukhari, Kitab Al-Tafsir, Hadith No. 4485)



Abdullah Bin Amr B Al-As says that the Prophet s.a.w. said: “Convey to others wha I say even though one message. And report from the Bani israel, there is no problem in it. But beware that one who attributes something wrongly to me will certainly get his abode in the hell-fire.”

(Sahih Bukhari, Kitab Al-Anbiya, Hadith No. 3461)



Jabir Bin Abdullah reports that once Umar Bin al-Khattab read a book, which he had received from a Jew, to the Prophet who got angry and said: “O the son of al-Khattab, ar you embarrased? By the One in whose hands is my life, I have brought to you something which is pure and immaculate. Don’t ask them(the Jews) anything. There is a possibility that they tell you the truth and you refute it, or they tell you the false and you confirm it. By the One in whose hands is my life, even if Musa were alive today he would have followed me.”

(Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Hadith no. 4736)


in hadith, the verse of stoning are called 'the divine verse' and similar to that the prophet SAW showed respect to the Torah (as mentioned) and above the only suggestion is that the interpretations/translations were the problem.

That's my argument against muslims, that our own translators/interpretors have done the same thing. Yet in that hadith the prophet SAW even says

"But beware that one who attributes something wrongly to me will certainly get his abode in the hell-fire."
so how much worse is it when they purposely alter the meaning of the Quran in the english language?
i literally mean some of these translators literally changed words to give it a different meaning knowingly..and you can only know they did it knowingly if you're familir with the theme and understand their reasoning.

For example, in the hebrew language we know that Lord (adoni) and THE Lord (adonai) are not equal. hence Jesus as 'Adoni/lord' does not make him God, you with me so far?
Years ago i brought this up with muslims, arguing that the term 'lord' in the context was not shirk, to which they said it was
but in arabic the word for lord is rabb and there is only one use for this word, we refer to Allah only as rabb.
When i made this argument, one of the 'brothers' on the forum decided to not engage me in a fair debate and told me
"bring your proofs from Quran/hadith, i do not care about other books"

You know what actually happened? i swear this is true
I had no prior research and just read the Quran at random for some perspective
it was one of those times where i was new to this form of argument and i was pretty upset tbh...moreso at the ego from my own kind (muslims)
i stumbled upon this verse


Surah 12 verse 23

diff translations yet again differ

And she, in whose house he was, sought to seduce him. She closed the doors and said, "Come, you." He said, "[I seek] the refuge of Allah. Indeed, he is my master, who has made good my residence. Indeed, wrongdoers will not succeed."

And she, in whose house he was, sought to seduce him (to do an evil act), and she closed the doors and said: "Come on, O you." He said: "I seek refuge in Allah (or Allah forbid)! Truly, he (your husband) is my master! He made my living in a great comfort! (So I will never betray him). Verily, the Zalimun (wrong and evil-doers) will never be successful."


the first translation posted, it implies that Allah is his master and the second one implies the head of the house was his master.
The word for master is Sayyid.....and the word in arabic used here was 'rabb' because in the context Yusuf AS would have been referring to his 'adoni' (though i dont even know whqat language he spoke at that time)

Warawadathu allatee huwa fee baytiha AAan nafsihi waghallaqati alabwaba waqalat hayta laka qala maAAatha Allahi innahu rabbee ahsana mathwaya innahu la yuflihu alththalimoona

The point im making here is yet again that subtle meanings are so deep in the Quran and their relation to the contents in the bible
what a muslim translator/interpretor could do is read the word 'rabb' in the context and figure 'it is dangerous for me to literally write 'lord' so i'll use master instead but i'll also change the meaning to imply Yusuf AS was referring to Allah Himself and not the master of the house.....


Basically if you dwell on these topics and you notice little ways where muslim translators have altered a meaning...this is no different to what the prophet SAW said about the jews.

Why in one form do you more or less reject the Torah but not do the same with the Quran? im assuming it's because the arabic has not changed and that is a very obvious plus point about the Quran...but what the Torah has in it's favour is universal confirmation
it's been confirmed in the Quran, by prophet SAW himself, by all the prophets who came since Ezra the scribe..so how can we claim it's altered? the only form it's really altered in is translated forms since we also know the original hebrew(Ezras version) was also eventually translated into greek (the Septuagint) and the original hebrew disappeared until later hebrew translations appeared.
The masoretic text ie the later hebrew edition of the same greek text is a translation......we can question that one but most bible versions we talk about today are based on te greek Septuagint which also predates Jesus himself and obviously the Quran.

I think it is not a strong argument to attack the Torah in light of what is in the Quran. Still all of this is about our position towards modern israel...and the argument im making is that ethnic cleansing we talk about is also applicable to the Quranic themes ie the establishment of ancient israel.





 

Illuminized

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So Islam is a religion of peace in what way then, exactly? Why do people keep calling it that?
Maybe it has to do with their conception of afterlife being a genuine expression of optimism.

Common sense would tell you to pick virgins over endlessly singing songs or crawling out of the earth again after dying. This earth can never be a paradise.
 

Illuminized

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Muslims can't divorce ourselves from jewish/israelite history though.
Sure you can. Just throw out the history altogether and focus on the personality, your prophet. Examples of a true and noble biography can be found in the works of Thomas Carlyle and Plutarch.

Mohammed was a successful reformer in his life and he wouldn't have ordered some of the severer commandments. Those are obviously interpolations.

His religion was adapted for the Arabic-nomadic peoples, who were inclined towards fate. At some point he probably wanted to free them from it, but after his death, fatalism increased instead.

He certainly understood that god does not do everything for a people, they have to change what is in themselves and strive for higher justice.

Quran 2:256

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil [disbelieves in Taghut] and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks.

Quran 29:69
And those who strive for Us - We will surely guide them to Our ways. And indeed, Allah is with the doers of good.
 
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Sure you can. Just throw out the history altogether and focus on the personality, your prophet. Examples of a true and noble biography can be found in the works of Thomas Carlyle and Plutarch.

Mohammed was a successful reformer in his life and he wouldn't have ordered some of the severer commandments. Those are obviously interpolations.

His religion was adapted for the Arabic-nomadic peoples, who were inclined towards fate. At some point he probably wanted to free them from it, but after his death, fatalism increased instead.

He certainly understood that god does not do everything for a people, they have to change what is in themselves and strive for higher justice.

Quran 2:256

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil [disbelieves in Taghut] and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks.

Quran 29:69
And those who strive for Us - We will surely guide them to Our ways. And indeed, Allah is with the doers of good.

We can't throw out history because it's in the Quran and certain chapters of history are very relevant to us.
It's like when I quoted from Surah al Isra..isn't it a very relevant title, given the same surah talks so much about the jews/israelites in the contex of their connection to Jerusalem?

There is a reason why the Quran repeats those stories, it isn't for us to just abuse the jews with but rather, as lessons for us.
See, we can't replicate the conditions the prophet SAW lived in, so the verses in the Quran have their context, but we can certain grasp certain themes from jewish history
for example, hellenised judea or babylonian captivity, you can see the obvious colonial connections within it but also learn how jews intergrated.

For example, Sheikh Hamza Yusuf meets George Bush....he is a traitor to islam....
Prophet Daniel AS served at the court of King Nebuchadnezzar who was responsible for the destruction of the jewish temple
imagine trump had the kaba destroyed and then some sheikh served him in the white house.....
how can one make sense of it?
then you read the Quran again in Surah al Isra and Allah tells the jews specifically that He sent His SERVANTs to punish the jews.
this is a bit lik when bush was claiming God Himself told bush to attack iraq...crazy comparison but it is the equivalent, God inspired the babylonians to invade jerusdalem and destroy God's Temple.
what type of madness is this?
 

Illuminized

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We can't throw out history because it's in the Quran and certain chapters of history are very relevant to us.
It's like when I quoted from Surah al Isra..isn't it a very relevant title, given the same surah talks so much about the jews/israelites in the contex of their connection to Jerusalem?

There is a reason why the Quran repeats those stories, it isn't for us to just abuse the jews with but rather, as lessons for us.
See, we can't replicate the conditions the prophet SAW lived in, so the verses in the Quran have their context, but we can certain grasp certain themes from jewish history
for example, hellenised judea or babylonian captivity, you can see the obvious colonial connections within it but also learn how jews intergrated.

For example, Sheikh Hamza Yusuf meets George Bush....he is a traitor to islam....
Prophet Daniel AS served at the court of King Nebuchadnezzar who was responsible for the destruction of the jewish temple
imagine trump had the kaba destroyed and then some sheikh served him in the white house.....
how can one make sense of it?
then you read the Quran again in Surah al Isra and Allah tells the jews specifically that He sent His SERVANTs to punish the jews.
this is a bit lik when bush was claiming God Himself told bush to attack iraq...crazy comparison but it is the equivalent, God inspired the babylonians to invade jerusdalem and destroy God's Temple.
what type of madness is this?
God does not punish anyone. There are laws established in the universe which have been interpreted that way. This concept has been preserved in the karma of the Indians. The Jewish instinct is against these laws and it'll rebound on them soon enough. But there's a catch. What falls, one should also push. If our striving harmonizes with the laws, then god will guide us.
 
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God does not punish anyone. There are laws established in the universe which have been interpreted that way. This concept has been preserved in the karma of the Indians. The Jewish instinct is against these laws and it'll rebound on them soon enough. But there's a catch. What falls, one should also push. If our striving harmonizes with the laws, then god will guide us.
If you talk about karma then it's only right you think of God as Isvara and in the context Isvara's 'personality' includes the punishing God.
 

UnderAlienControl

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In break with decades of U.S. policy, Trump to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-israel/in-break-with-decades-of-u-s-policy-trump-to-recognize-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-idUSKBN1DZ04V

'Still, deliberations over the status of Jerusalem were tense. Vice President Mike Pence and David Friedman, U.S. ambassador to Israel, pushed hard for both recognition and embassy relocation, while Secretary of State Rex Tillerson and Defense Secretary Jim Mattis opposed the move from Tel Aviv, according to other U.S. officials who spoke on condition of anonymity.'

I think it should read, "David Friedman, U.S. Ambassador FOR Israel". So, it's pretty obvious what the motives were in this discussion. Friedman's an Israel-Firster and Pence wants to ensure future campaign funding. Tillerson and Mattis aren't running for anything, so for them it's just a whole new set of headaches for State and Defense that they really don't need right now...
(<>..<>)
 
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Thunderian

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I would guess that the reason some people call it the religion of peace is because it advocates for peace first and foremost
Can you name a single Islamic leader who is calling for peace right now?
 

DesertRose

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http://www.yenisafak.com/en/news/world-reacts-to-trumps-plan-for-jerusalem-2880016
World reacts to Trump’s plan for Jerusalem
Statements from different countries pour in as US planned recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital

World reacts to Trump’s plan for Jerusalem

Reactions from across the globe began pouring in on Wednesday after the U.S. planned recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and relocation of the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem.

China voiced its concern over the U.S.’s statements about Jerusalem saying the move could spark more tensions.

“All parties should avoid weakening the long-standing solutions for Palestine conflict by causing new divisions,” Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Geng Shuang said in a news briefing.

Shuang emphasized that Beijing supports an independent Palestinian State with east Jerusalem as its capital.


00:55 dk
06 Aralık 2017
Yeni Şafak
Turkey warns US that Jerusalem embassy move is 'grave mistake'
Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu said on Wednesday that it would be a "grave mistake" for the United States to move its Israel embassy to Jerusalem and that he had warned U.S. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson. Before a bilateral meeting with Tillerson at NATO headquarters, Çavuşoğlu said: "It would be a grave mistake [to move the U.S. embassy]. It will not bring any stability but rather chaos and instability. The whole world is against this," he said, adding that he had already told Tillerson how he felt and would reiterate it at the meeting at NATO during the alliance's foreign ministers' meeting.

Pope Francis also urged U.S. President Donald Trump to respect the Jerusalem’s status.
Speaking during a weekly address in Vatican, the Pope said: "I cannot keep silent on my deep concern for the situation that has been created in the past days."

The Pope has described Jerusalem as "a unique city, sacred to Jews, Christians, and Muslims".

"I would like to make a heartfelt appeal for everyone’s commitment to respect the city’s status, in conformity with the pertinent United Nations Resolutions," he said, as quoted by the Vatican Radio, an official broadcaster.
Erdoğan phones leaders over US move on Jerusalem

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan on Wednesday made phone calls to leaders of Iran, Tunisia and Malaysia over an expected U.S. decision to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital.According to a presidential source, Erdoğan told Iranian president Hassan Rouhani, Tunisian president Beji Caid Essebsi, and Malaysian prime minister Najib Razak, that the move would "disrupt peace process in the Middle East".Trump is expected to formally recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital on Wednesday and begin preparations to move the U.S. Embassy to the city, three senior administration officials confirmed to Anadolu Agency, late Tuesday.Palestinians, Arab and Muslim countries warn that a unilateral recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital would "unleash widespread public anger" and deal a death knee to the peace process.Video: Erdoğan: Jerusalem is the red line of MuslimsDuring his election campaign last year, Trump repeatedly promised to move the U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.Jerusalem remains at the core of the Israel-Palestine conflict, with Palestinians hoping that East Jerusalem -- currently occupied by Israel -- might eventually serve as the capital of a future Palestinian state.Turkish lawmakers slam reported Trump Jerusalem planTurkey warns US that Jerusalem embassy move is 'grave mistake'Palestinian envoy says US recognition of Jerusalem is 'declaring war'

'Grave concern'

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov warned of a "possible complication" if the U.S. recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

"The situation is complex," Peskov told reporters.

Pakistan also expressed “grave concern” over the U.S. Embassy shifting reports and termed such steps “a clear violation of UN Security Council’s resolutions”.

A statement issued by the Prime Minister House stated that such a move would sidestep decades-long global consensus on the issue, undermine regional peace and security as well as derail any prospects for a lasting peace in the Middle East.


Abbas calls for reconciliation to face ‘risks’
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas on Wednesday called for achieving inter-Palestinian reconciliation to face “risks” facing the Palestinian issue.The call comes ahead of an expected announcement by U.S. President Donald Trump to relocate the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem and officially recognize the city as Israel’s capital.“In order to ensure the success of reconciliation, we have instructed the government to go to the Gaza Strip and work to find solutions to the daily suffering of our people there,” Abbas said in a statement carried by the official Wafa news agency.He appealed to the Palestinian people and factions to “focus on the upcoming challenges facing the national project by taking advantage of the opportunity to achieve national unity."He said the Palestinian unity is the “real response to all attempts aimed at violating our rights guaranteed by international law and norms”.Gazans protest Trump’s plan for Jerusalem recognitionTurkey warns US that Jerusalem embassy move is 'grave mistake'In October, rival Palestinian groups Hamas and Fatah signed a landmark reconciliation agreement in Cairo aimed at healing their decade-long rift after Hamas captured Gaza from Fatah in 2007 after days of street fighting. Turkish PM says Trump’s plan for Jerusalem ‘unlawful'

The statement called on the United States to refrain from any move that alters the legal and historical status as well as character of Al-Quds Al-Sharif, fully comply with all applicable UN Security Council resolutions.

Trump is expected to formally recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital on Wednesday and begin preparations to move the U.S. Embassy to the city, three senior administration officials confirmed to Anadolu Agency late Tuesday.

Palestinians, Arab and Muslim countries warn that a unilateral recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital would "unleash widespread public anger" and deal a death knee to the peace process.

During his election campaign last year, Trump repeatedly promised to move the U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

Jerusalem remains at the core of the Israel-Palestine conflict, with Palestinians hoping that East Jerusalem -- currently occupied by Israel -- might eventually serve as the capital of a future Palestinian state.

In addition, Russia is among the countries expressing concern about Jerusalem’s status.
 

Thunderian

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In my first year as a university student at York University, here in Canada, there wasn't much talk about Israel-Palestinian relations. However, by my fourth year the amount of support Palestinians received was overwhelming compared to how Israel was viewed. According to polls Israel is among the nations least popular.
Israel haters on a university campus. What are the odds?
 
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