Islam as the end times 'beast'/Islam critical thread

Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by SkepticCat, Dec 7, 2017.

  1. SkepticCat

    SkepticCat Established

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    There are a number of sources making the argument that Islam is the 'beast' spoken of in the Bible. Needless to say, a thread such as this is going to cause controversy. My motivation for posting this thread is not to stir up hate but to open debate. I shouldn't even have to point this out (or potentially receive death threats from 'religion of peace' followers) but that is how these threads have gone this far. From the perspective of Christians, it is just as 'insulting' to claim Jesus Christ is not the Son of God... but being triggered by these things is rather childish in the first place? Nobody wishes to worship Satan so let's be reasonable here, put identities aside, and just look at the material?

    source: https://pt.slideshare.net/charlesmartel1974/the-mark-of-the-beast-30685111

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    These are not exactly similar but I find it very strange indeed that there would be so much resemblance between the Greek numerals for 666 mentioned as the Mark of the Beast in the Bible and the Bismillah supposedly being revealed by the same God more than 600 years later. Out of all the possible shapes and forms, what are the chances?

    [​IMG]

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    Looking at the calligraphy, it seems to me there are sixes everywhere in the names and words relating to Allah. This also seems strange to me.


    [​IMG]
    'Allahu Akbar Mosque'

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    [​IMG]

    6... and 13?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Then, there's the black cubes - Islam's cube supposedly having nothing to do with the Black Cube of Saturn that all the others represent. There are black boxes existing in Islam, Judaism, Freemasonry and at the UN:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    (UN prayer room)

    [​IMG]
    (Masonic 'Perfect Ashlar')

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    A key difference between Christianity and Islam is the question of how salvation is achieved. In Christianity, no good works will save you. A human being is hopelessly flawed before perfect God and can never redeem himself by his own power. Salvation is by grace through faith, only - but faith will then produce good works, following the change of heart associated with genuine repentance. You either believe Jesus Christ died for your sins, or you don't - and this will then affect your behavior. In Islam, according to Mohammad but contrary to the doctrine preached by Jesus, you are saved (or not) depending on your works.

    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    (Ephesians 2:8-9)

    +

    Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds [that] for them there is forgiveness and great reward.
    (Al-Ma'idah, Surah 5:9)

    This is a very big difference, and a supposedly very big change of mind over a span of some ~600 years by an unchanging God. In Islam, it does mean that even if one does believe - but then fails to do good [enough] works, for one reason or another - one's salvation is possibly in jeopardy. It indirectly means life is a constant struggle because one is at any time in danger of never-ending torment and hellfire if one fails to perform.

    There are many more examples of significant doctrinal changes ordered by the supposedly same deity:

    You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Do not even tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even Gentiles do the same?
    (Matthew 5)

    +

    And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

    And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

    Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.

    [Fighting in] the sacred month is for [aggression committed in] the sacred month, and for [all] violations is legal retribution. So whoever has assaulted you, then assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

    (Al-Baqarah, Surah 2:191-194)

    So, according to Islam:

    You have heard that it was said,

    1) ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’
    ---> 2) But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

    ----> 3) So whoever has assaulted you, then assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. (ie, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, again!!!)

    ---


    The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?
    (At-Tawbah, Surah 9:30)

    :-(

    OK, enough of this. I just wanted to share the pictures and videos describing the alleged 666-Islam connection.





    http://www.beholdthebeast.com/islam__quran_and_666.htm
    https://thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/jesus-muhammad.aspx
     
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  2. Kung Fu

    Kung Fu Star

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    Where does it state in the Bible that Islam is or will be the "beast"? Anyone can compare random silliness and phrases in order to fit their narrative so let's escape the copy and paste work and get to directly to it.

    From the point of view of Israelites and Muslims the only people into polytheism, paganism, and a type of devil worship would be you Christians and it's plain to see. You sure love your man-gods and so did the Romans ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  3. Faker He-Man

    Faker He-Man Established

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    Let's see how low you're both gonna sink here. Where's my popcorn? I don't like to participate in drama, but it's sure is fun to observe egos engage in a fragility contest.
     
  4. Kung Fu

    Kung Fu Star

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    Don't you have some toys to be playing with or something you know since you never really contribute anything?
     
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  5. Faker He-Man

    Faker He-Man Established

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    So predictable.. I love you king fu. (No typo)
     
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  6. Vytas

    Vytas Veteran

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    Just few observations 666 is a number of a man. Not system , not God , not religion or something else...Also mark of the beast symbolism has nothing to do with 666 why people always confuse them ? Antichrist isn't mark of the beast himself. Mark of the beast has it's own symbol...
    And yes Islam is full symbolism like all other religions..
    Also "islamic beast" video is really poor.. Muhammad as false prophet of bible... really? Way to early for that guy to make a videos... Most points are exaggerated...
     
  7. AspiringSoul

    AspiringSoul Star

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    @SkepticCat you have an image of knights templar in your avatar and you say things like
    or potentially receive death threats from 'religion of peace' followers

    This in itself tells me a lot about you.
    Still i'll answer you because this shit is so comical.

    also, before you continue, remember, an argument has to be consistent with the whole body of texts available on this topic/prophecy and not just 1 tiny part.

    1) The beast of the earth mentioned in Revelation is a false prophet, a man, who causes everyone to worship the image of the beast.
    Allah is not a man..nor does Allah want people to worship anyone other than Himself.

    2)
    The numeric values of letters in arabic, hebrew and greek are the same
    [​IMG]

    the number 666 is meant to come from the numerical values in the name.
    Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

    As you already should know, Allah and Eloh are the same, with the same numerical values.
    The Bismillah IrRahman IrRaheem for example has the numerical value of 786.

    All this source has really done is jumped to conclusions by using islamic caligraphy to try and draw comparison that way.


    3) In Daniel 2
    The legs of iron=4th beast
    The feet of iron/clay=the 4th beast in it's latter day form, it's the same system, it simply resurfaces at this point in different form....
    this beast was the Rome.

    In Daniel 7
    the prophecy is told of the coming of Titus, the year of 4 emperors, the 10 emperors in total from Augustus Ceasar to Vespasian until the jewish temple was destroyed.

    The beast of the earth is in Revelation is obviously connected with this.

    4)
    The prophecies in Revelation 6 foretold the eras that bring about the end times beast/political system.
    The white horse =conquest=the colonial era.
    If you look at the european colonial nations, they were all........? former roman colonies..and christians!!
    The red horse= death = world wars.
    oh yh the best horse symbolised the capitalist/consumer era...

    But you want to believe the beast refers to islam/muslims


    5) The whore sits on the beast until it reaches maturity, then it destroys the whore.
    this refers to the jewish elite, bankers, media, music, entertainment, internet corporations
    jew owned
    the world was under her spell, 'drank the wine of her adulteries'

    6) the false prophet, the anti-christ will set himself up in the temple. The new testament tells us this. The anti-christ will proclaim himself to be the messiah..naturally.
    how can that be Allah?

    7) Allah and prophet Mohammad SAW both refer to Jesus as the Word of Allah ie the Logos. in the true context, 'the son' was only a symbolic term to describe the logos which was a greek term.
    the jewish philosopher, Philo first made that connection
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo's_view_of_God#The_Logos
    The Logos was the highest of these intermediary beings, and was called by Philo "the first-born of God."

    so if Allah and the prophet SAW clearly acknowledge Jesus as the Logos/Word of God......
    in what way does that mean, they reject 'the son of God'?
    what is rejected in islam, is the TERM SON because it is certainly a fact that christians themselves do not even have basic understanding of the underlying metaphysical ideas linked to the logos and they take the 'son' quite literally.
    Jesus did not have a human father, therefore christian literalists, think he is the 'son of God' in that sense. These same mindless literalits also take Genesis literally and literally think God is a giant in the garden of eden who walked about looking for Adam and Eve. They literally believe God rested on the 7th day because he was tired./

    and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.

    islam rejects the term 'son' given it's literal interpretation by stupid people, but it does not reject the original intention of Philo does it? it does not reject the actual metaphysical idea.


    8) Zecheriah 11 foretold the 2 shepherds.Jesus Christ..and the anti-christ.
    15 Then the Lord said to me, “Take once more the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16 For behold, I am raising up in the land a shepherd who does not care for those being destroyed, or seek the young or heal the maimed or nourish the healthy, but devours the flesh of the fat ones, tearing off even their hoofs.


    17 “Woe to my worthless shepherd,
    who deserts the flock!
    May the sword strike his arm
    and his right eye!
    Let his arm be wholly withered,
    his right eye utterly blinded!”


    this is obviously a jewish person

    Prophet Mohammad SAW foretold the coming of this person as the 'masih ad-dajjal' (the false messiah) but he also told us Jesus Christ would decend and kill him.


    9)
    Finally subjective imagery derived from calipgraphy? come on mate.........you've been blessed with all these prophecies in the bible and this is the best you can come up with?

    "The BLACK cube"?
    erm no
    the Kaba is not 'black'
    this is what the kaba actually looks like

    [​IMG]
    the cover
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiswah
    The first time the Kaaba was clothed was during the rule of the Jurhum tribe during the visit of King Tuba of Himyar (in present-day Yemen). Muhammad and the Muslims in Mecca did not participate in the draping of the Kaaba until the conquest of the city at 630 AD (7 AH), as the ruling tribe, Quraish, did not allow them to do so. When Mecca was taken by the Muslims, they decided to leave the Kiswah as it was until a woman lighting incense in the Kaaba accidentally set fire to the Kiswah. Muhammad then draped it with a white Yemeni cloth

    so it would have been a white cube in that time


    The Caliph Al-Ma'mun, draped the Kaaba three times a year, each time with a different colour: red on the eighth of Dhu al-Hijjah, white gabati on the first of Rajab, and another red brocade on the twenty-ninth of Ramadan. Later on, Al-Nasir draped the Kaaba with green; both he and Al-Ma'mun disagreed on the frequent colour changes and switched to black, the only colour that has since been used for Kiswah. Black Kiswah supported by Tradition of Prophet to Mourning, some associated it with Battle of Karbala however saying of Prophet to wrap Kaaba with black cloth after 100 Years or before when events of Sorrow took start.

    so it's had different colour cloth covering it, but White would be my preferred choice for obvious reasons.

    so there goes that argument.


    it's funny with you christian types
    claim Allah is the moon god, now he is the beast? but wait the kaba is a cube of saturn?
    make up your mind?
     
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  8. Victoria

    Victoria Rookie

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  9. SkepticCat

    SkepticCat Established

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    First off, I want to point out that the motivation for this thread is a search for truth. The doctrines of the various religions are not identical hence cannot all be truth. Truth - a relevant question, surely?

    The Bible never mentions Islam by name (for obvious chronological reasons). What the Bible does state over and over again is the special nature of Jesus Christ. The entire New Testament is the account of Him performing miracles, receiving the special attention and acknowledgment of God and, most importantly, being raised from the dead. This is the account that hundreds of pages in the New Testament concern themselves with... and the entire point of it all is to point out that the ONLY chance of salvation is through Him, Jesus Christ.

    ~600 years later, around comes the Quran. Now, the 'same God' (under a new name) declares that the resurrection never happened, that Jesus is NOT his son etc. The doctrinal differences are so massive that if you are to believe the words of the Quran it makes no sense to trust in Jesus since he must then simply have been a delusional fool (or something worse) - yet, the Quran still somehow maintains Jesus is the Messiah, and that it is he who will return in the end.

    [​IMG]

    If Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three aspects of God that does not make Christianity a polytheist religion.

    You could create a post explaining what you believe this existence to be instead, you know. There are people all over the world getting killed over these things every day so if you have some fantastic nugget of knowledge you may wish to share so all we un-enlightened sillies can stop fighting.

    http://rescuechristians.org/

    'Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.'
    (Rev. 13:18)

    Did you watch the first video? The author argues, around the 7 minute mark, that the interpretation of 666 as a number is not necessarily correct. I do think the author is on shaky ground here, though, because elsewhere in the Bible, 666 does definitely refer to a number (Book of Kings, Book of Ezra). As we saw, however, the symbols for the Greek number 666 and the Islamic Bismillah are very similar. From a Christian perspective, it is very simple, however: Islam specifically denies Jesus Christ is the son of God, His divine nature, that He died on the cross etc - therefore, Islam is anti-Christ, regardless of the significance of the 666 number/name.

    Again, allow me to point out with a few quotes how silly I think the whole thing is:

    'Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.'

    (John 8:58)

    'Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.'
    (John 14:6)

    'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.'
    (John 3:16-18)

    'Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.'
    (1 John 4:1-3)

    'Now Thomas called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he replied, “Unless I see the nail marks in His hands, and put my finger where the nails have been, and put my hand into His side, I will never believe.” Eight days later, His disciples were once again inside with the doors locked, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen, and yet have believed.” '
    (John 20:24 - how can this possibly be explained from the Islamic perspective? Was John deluded, or did he lie? Did none of this happen?)

    'Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.'
    (Revelation 2:10)

    ---

    'And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.'
    (Surah 4:157)

    'Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith. But those who [willingly] open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah, and for them is a great punishment;'
    (Surah 16:106 - this basically says you're allowed to lie and deny your faith to save your life, compare Rev. 2:10)

    'And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.'
    (Surah 5:116 - but, Jesus never claimed to be separate from God nor did He preach to exalt His mother!)

    ---

    The Quran denies most if not all the key tenets of the Christian faith that the Quran itself supposedly builds on - yet claims to be inspired by the same God... and more than a billion people believe this. For the Quran to be true, all of the people and apostles actually around Jesus who witnessed the events at the time would have to be liars, delusional, part of a conspiracy to completely distort account of the events. For the Quran to be true, all of Christianity would have to be a lie - yet, the Quran still recognizes the special identity of Jesus [as a 'prophet' from God]. If I were a kabbalistic, satanist, Jesuit, Freemasonic you-know-the-rest I would create something exactly like the Quran... I suppose the Muslim response would be that to get the perception of Jesus as distorted as it allegedly is in Christianity from the Islamic perspective the same groups would have had to be all over around the time of Christ... but does that even make any sense, with the Quran claiming continuity to the Gospel?

    http://christiandefense.org/Islam_Jesus claims to be God.htm
    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/adrian...stians-and-muslims-disagree-about-over-jesus/


    I don't use that avatar because I have some bizarre desire to kill other people over their faith. Please don't bunch me in with the Alex Jones-types talking about wanting to kill or expel Muslims just for being Muslims. I have Muslim friends and some of the nicest people I know are Muslims. Still, consider what some of the 'fruits' of Islamic culture have been. I'm aware you're going to say 'that has nothing to do with Islam' and I will concur that you are right - to a degree. Yet, I challenge you to find for me a single example of Christian 'honor killings'. I challenge to find for me examples of Christian communities (no, I'm not talking about Trump voters here) murdering and persecuting other religious groups over their faith. But, these things still happen on a large scale in Muslim-dominated nations... even in the 21st century, after any sort of paganism, tribalism should have been long since eradicated if it's such a peaceful religion of truth.

    Again, let's look at the difference of both content and intonation:

    'But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;'
    (Matthew 5:44)

    -

    '[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."'
    (Surah 8:12)

    The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?
    (Surah 9:30)

    Is this the same God of love speaking - the one hoping for all to come to repentance, to share in eternal life? What hap
    pened? I don't hope for the Muslims or the Jews to be 'destroyed', I hope for them to repent and be saved!

    You post a whole lot that I could go over. I will just pose a single question: Do you believe all or most of the Old and New Testaments are to be interpreted metaphorically? Jesus never physically walked the Earth, there was no Cross and no Crucifixion etc?

    I think 'Allah' is the moon god, Islam may be the 'beast' (or directly related to it) and that the Kabaa does represent Saturn worship. No, I don't want Islam to refer to the Beast, I want truth, I want clarity. Christian and Islamic beliefs are quite clearly diametrically opposed on many topics and they can't both be correct. I find Muslim websites in seriousness proposing that 'the Quran is 666' and that this is a good thing... Regardless of how controversial this topic is or how much it is bound to upset people, I think it's an issue that needs exploring. So, get upset that I think the Kabaa looks suspiciously like all the satanic cubes if you must, or that I'm honest enough to say that I don't think Islam is a positive religion at all when you examine the fine print.



     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2017
  10. DesertRose

    DesertRose Star

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    Let's begin with the fact that you have no knowledge about Islam. In fact Zero.
    In Islam God is Just and God is Merciful.
    He will forgive you if you repent and cease wrong actions.
    "My Mercy overpowers My Anger."
    Your belief also has hellfire, whom is it for?
    Kindly put Quranic verses in context and do not distort my religion.

    Quran 9:30-35

    The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?

    They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.

    They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it.
    It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it.

    O you who have believed, indeed many of the scholars and the monks devour the wealth of people unjustly and avert [them] from the way of Allah . And those who hoard gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah - give them tidings of a painful punishment.

    The Day when it will be heated in the fire of Hell and seared therewith will be their foreheads, their flanks, and their backs, [it will be said], "This is what you hoarded for yourselves, so taste what you used to hoard."

    Here is a Jewish person explaining how messed up Evangelical ideas of a moon god are since you will probably not look at a post by a Muslim or even an knowledgeable Christian like John L. Esposito who addressed that in the video I put on a thread titled his name.

    Quran 41:37
    And of His signs are the night and day and the sun and moon. Do not prostrate to the sun or to the moon, but prostate to Allah, who created them, if it should be Him that you worship.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2017
  11. AspiringSoul

    AspiringSoul Star

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    @SkepticCat
    you see, every single one of the points you've brought up have been answered in depth by myself, a number of times.
    So if I told you i can't be bothered answering you, you might just think im being evasive because I have no answer.

    The other thing is, it's like I already proved to you that the kaba is not a 'black cube'
    if the cloth covering it was white, then what would you say? in muslim history it has been White, black, red, green.....

    The 'Allah is a moon god' accusation, is baseless, like the video posted above, that is from a jew. The christian arabs btw refer to 'God' as Allah.....you're clearly just ignorant.

    The argument that islam is the beast has absolutely no truth to it simply because if you go and read Daniel 2, 7 and 9 prophecies..the book foretold the coming of Titus.
    The 'beast' ie the legs of iron was the Roman empire..the 10 horns were the 10 emperors of rome who precided over the jewish temple until it's destruction. The 4 horns and the little horn=the year of 4 emperors and titus.
    in daniel 7, we go directly from titus, to the second coming of Jesus.
    in Daniel 2, we're given the sign of the end days Rome, ie the feet of iron and clay.
    The roman empire conquered most of europe. Those countries were extentions of rome and in the last numbero of centures, these countries (all christian btw) went on colonising. The countries they colonised became commonwealth nations hence in britain you have indians, pakistanis, bengalis, carribean people. In france you get algerians and west africans. in italy you get tunisians, in germany you get turks.
    The 'feet of iron and CLAY' in the context makesperfect sense.
    This entire colonial era was foretold in the white horseman prophecy in Rev 6.
    Then the red horseman represented death..and what happened, these colonial powers all fought against one another, 2 world wars, the holocaust, the bolshevik revolution etc.
    there was mass slaughter.
    none of this was primarily about islam, it was about the christian world ie the actual beast/rome.
    Just like the 3rd horseman represents the 'scales' and describes the age of capitalism.


    I know the bible, far better than you and i've answered your other points in depth..and btw im a muslim who believes the crucifixion happened and believe the quranic verse you yourself quoted is misunderstood. I do that on the basis of ideas that are deeply embedded throughout the bible.
    i bet you've never even read the book of Wisdom which btw was a canonical text when Jesus was in the world.
    How could you attempt to debate with me when you don't know your own book aswell as me, and your arguments are based on just subjective ignorance.
     
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  12. rainerann

    rainerann Star

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    I don’t think Islam is the beast, although I think it will be very instrumental in revealing the beast.

    There is research suggesting that basic things like the claim that Mecca was a center for trade don’t have evidence to support this. Something that would have nothing to do with disproving Islam. A trade route that would have been a place where other nations would have conducted trade for the sake of trading goods and not having anything to do with being for or against a religion called Islam, should have at least one ancient map that mentions this location of trade, but there isn’t one that has been found.

    There are no maps that support the notion that Mecca was a trade center outside of Islamic sources that try to describe the life of Muhammad http://nabataea.net/MeccaProblems.html

    So I truly wonder when Islam will collapse because of the investigation into the history of Islam. It just doesn’t seem to have any real legs to stand on unless I brainwash myself to believe the history according to biased Islamic sources who have serious credibility issues if we consider the present state and quality of at least 50 percent of the hadiths.

    When Islam is found to have no historical ground, I do think this will reveal the beast because it will create a domino effect that will reveal the mystery of lawlessness and man of sin. It also will increase the accountability of everyone who is alive for judgement.

    For many years, there has been suspicion over the Jews tampering with scripture. There have been thousands of investigations to prove this, although this has still been difficult to prove. It isn’t an obvious change if there were changes. Even the Dead Sea scroll of the book of Isaiah mirrors the book of Isaiah in the Old Testament.

    So what did they change? Justin Martyr says that verses were removed by the Jews. There is also a book I read a long time ago called Egypt knew no pharaohs not Israelites where a native of Egypt presented his belief that locations where changed by the Jews because there is also no evidence that the Jews were ever in Egypt. Egypt has been scoured by archeologists and still there is no clear evidence of the presence of the Jews.

    Names could also be changed easily without anyone finding out. We are often so used to seeing them translated that I don’t think most people realize that the original Hebrew does not use the word Egypt to describe the place where the exodus took place. In Hebrew, it is misrayim, which is the same as saying that the Hebrews were staying with the sons of Ham(genesis 10:6).

    This is the same as saying that the ancient Hebrews kept track of people according to their connection to Noah. In theory, these descendants of ham could have been from Iraq to India to anywhere and we are depending on the translation of the Jews to confirm the modern equivalent of this reference.

    So these could have been changed and this would have benefited the Jews in theory by being able to keep the location of where King David and King Solomon reigned a secret from the world. This would have been an easy thing to change without getting caught that you would be able to rationalize as a way to protect your people with.

    So the writer of this book believes ancient Israel was actually in Yemen, which also has one of the oldest Jewish populations in the world. So we are looking at the people who were able to leave Babylon settling in what we call Israel today simply because they were able to leave babylon, not because there is evidence to suggest this was a return to the original location of Israel.

    So with the Muslim presence in Yemen and Saudi Arabia this place is almost on lock down for the rest of the world because Islam does not seem willing or able to question this history, but with the recent migration taking place, so is investigation that might lead to finding evidence for many things that would increase our accountability and make it difficult to deny scripture.

    It says in revelation 6:16 “calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,”

    I believe when the end comes, people will not be sitting in a state of confusion. In reality, it is the only fair way to view the coming judgment. It would not be fair to judge people the way the end describes without providing every opportunity for them to repent.

    Therefore, maybe 666 is a direct reference to the amount Solomon was given and there will be a way to prove where Solomon reigned. Maybe there will be something relevant to evidence of Solomon that will establish the temple where the antichrist will sit. Then, the question will be whether people will choose pride and refuse to change the opinion they had prior to a revelation of truth or will they choose to repent because it, and the wheat will be separated from the tares by this.

    So I don’t think Islam is the beast even if it could be considered antichrist teaching to deny Christ as the son of god and claim that Muhammad is the comforter denying the Holy Spirit. Therefore, it is easy to make a connection like this, which was one of the first reasons I didn’t consider it a possibility. Scripture gives the impression that identifying the beast is such a simple pursuit.
     
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  13. DesertRose

    DesertRose Star

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  14. SpektaCoolAir

    SpektaCoolAir Established

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    funny how the ones who could easily be synonymous with satanism/satanists (because of the things both of them have in common which nobody of them could ever deny - no matter how hard they try by flexing & stretching meanings & interpretations) always point fingers at the only way of life (that exists) that is anti-satanic like no other & try to discredit it by coming up with the most ridiculous claims (embarrassing themselves over & over again - even after being corrected & educated - one can only feel sorry for them - if anything).

    it's like they feel threatened because of the hardcore anti-satanic nature of the pure message that is being conveyed.

    now they try to turn the tables & say the anti-satanists (pure monotheists - muslims) are in reality satanists & they (believer of human sacrifice - core doctrine) are in reality the anti-satanists.
    executing the plan of satan to make the truth seem like falsehood & vice versa.

    well actually it makes sense - considering the fact that the natural enemy/opposition of satanism is (was & always will be) islam!
     
  15. AspiringSoul

    AspiringSoul Star

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    @rainerann It seems to me that you are not being sincere with your views but are trying to present any possible argument against islam.

    1) the argument that Mecca wasn't a trade 'center' therefore islam is going to collapse? lol.
    I don't think there is any claim by 'islam' in the Quran or hadith that mecca was a 'trade center' and therefore somehow this was meant to add something to our religion? wtf.
    it is just a basic accepted fact.

    eg

    The Ishmaelites were merchants and traders. They lived on the caravan-road which brought the spices of southern Arabia to Canaan and Egypt, and the trade was largely in their hands. In the history of Joseph we hear of them carrying the balm of Gilead and the myrrh of the south on their camels to Egypt, and in the second century before the Christian era the merchant princes of Petra made their capital one of the wealthiest of Oriental cities.
    http://biblehub.com/library/sayce/e...unding_nations/chapter_iii_the_nations_of.htm

    the bible tells us of ishmaelite merchants, where do you suppose the ishmaelites would be based? the story of Hagar and the well/miracle is in Genesis of God sake...do you have any ounce of shame when you make these type of statements?

    2) "islam will reveal the beast"
    Again, I honestly wonder if you have sincerity aswell as shame. If your religion mattered to you, you would study the bible with sincerity.
    If you had done then you would know that Daniel 2 already told us who the beast was. It was Rome. In this chapter it is actually the same empire that resurfaces in the latter days as the 'feet of iron and clay' and it is THIS 'beast' that is struck by the rock (ie Jesus).
    the 4 beasts were empires that presided over the jewish temple, that is their relevance to the jewish story.
    Daniel 7 clearly foretells the coming of Titus and then the second coming.
    Daniel 9's seventy week prophecy as you know also tells us exactly what would happen leading to the destruction of the temple.
    After that 'wars will continue to the very end' that is all we're further told.

    Now if you want to know more about the beast in Revelation, we know this beast contains the symbols of the previous 4 beasts. More than likely a one world government system.
    We know this beast will one day come under the control of the false prophet..the anti-christ.
    We know from Zechariah 11 the anti-christ will rule from Jerusalem and he will betray his people. If you connect this with the revelation prophecies, this is the story of the fall of mystery babylon.
    As i have said many times, the whore who sits on the beast, refers to the jewish cartel that rules over the western world ie the bankers, media etc.
    Everything points the finger in your direction, not ours.

    3) "islam denies the son and the holy spirit"
    of course, context doesn't matter to you, you prefer to use misleading arguments that lack real substance, choosing instead to focus on external literal presentations of your truth.

    I've sad this a thousand times

    The Son...is just a symbolic term to describe the logos. I have already highlighted the fact that it was the jewish philosopher, Philo, who intergrated the greek idea of the Logos into a jewish context. It is that, he referred to as 'the first born of God'.
    just symbolic language meant to be appreciated in it's original context.

    In islam, Jesus Christ is 'The Word of Allah'.
    this of course directly touches on the same truth understood by Philo and told in the new testament.
    the major difference is islam rejects it's literal misinterpretation by christians............and by that i mean people like you, the dumb literalist variety of christian who barely understands real metaphysical themes and sits around thinking 'the son' is 'baby jezuz'

    'islam denies the holy spirit because it claims Mohammad is the comforter'

    you cannot use an example of modern muslim ignorance as a yardstick.
    For example it is a modern view shared by people like ahmad deedat...spread in the english language..that the 'ruh al quddus' was the 'angel Gabriel'. Right?
    Yet im against that view entirely. Even if you look at the hadith, it proves the angel gabriel and holy spirit are not the same entity.

    Whoever satirises the Apostle from amongst you, or praises him and helps it is all the same, And Gabriel, the Apostle of Allah is among us, and the holy spirit who has no match. (Book #031, Hadith #6081)

    So Jesus said the spirit of truth would 'speak only what he hears and tell you what is to come'
    this can only be fulfilled through a person..and the holy spirit works through people.

    Also within this, there is a deeper metaphysical idea
    the macrocosm and the microcosm
    but this is not a topic you can understand. I could explain it but it would go over your head as always.


    I will say this though
    Historically islam and christianity co-existed without a real middle ground dialogue that ever touched the surface of all of these ideas. I wish i could just open a hadith and see the prophet himself directly telling us what the new testament ideas inc the crucifixion meant, but they do not exist.
    After muslims were colonised you end up with a context where you have indians, in africa, as british employees. so you get an indian gujrati Ahmad deedat growing up in south africa, multilingual, intelligent and trying to connect with islam. He saw many attempts by christian missionaries to convert muslims to the wrong religion ;) and he reacted to that by reading books by other muslim missionaries and then used some of those arguments aswell as his own to argue against Christianity.
    BUT
    because he spoke on a level playing field, in the english language..and his personality aswell as appearance meant his ideas became the most dominant. It isn't that every muslim decided 'omg ahmad deedat's truth is ISLAM'
    as a muslim he had his own views, but the context of him speaking english meant his works became universal in a time when the english language is the most spoken language in the world. his material got printed into books, videos were made..and spread..and then they got uploaded to youtube.
    in that time, others have come but they are just a poor man's version of him.
    In my time, ive read the bible and formed different conclusions to ahmad deedat for example i believe in a great deal that the crucifixion happened. I don't think verse 4:157 in the Quran was a 'denial' of the crucifixion and resurrection at all. in fact in it's true context it was referring to the sadducee belief in the life/death of the physical body.
    The Quran is a book that tells us 'think not of the slain as dead, no, they are alive'
    think on that?
    it's because to understand the true context of death and the grave/sheol, you have to understand the nature of our carnal self. Our carnal nature causes us death, so how can a person who's carnal nature is put to death (as in the serpent on the cross_ experience death?
    hence peter said 'the grave had no hold on him'.
    in reality in islam, when your body dies, it is not 'death' but 'passing away'. whereas death is a condition of the soul in the grave, when it is imprisoned in there.

    islam is a deep religion with MANY truths you could not even begin to understand yet. Yet some of these truths esp what i just described, is there in the bible if you understand.
    I BET you did not even read the book of wisdom chapters which i linked you, how sincere are you? i wanted to know your personal view of those chapters and acknowledgement that those chapters were prophecy.
     
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  16. z gharib

    z gharib Established

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    iranian movie -the birth of jesus- saint mary
     
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  17. z gharib

    z gharib Established

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    the birth of jesus -farsi english subtitle
     
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  18. friend

    friend Rookie

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    for you kind information Kaba is Rectangular not cubical.
    [​IMG]


    from above :

    [​IMG]

    the round wall is part of kaba but without ceiling :
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    https://muslimmatters.org/2012/11/15/ten-things-you-didnt-know-about-the-kaaba/
     
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  19. elsbet

    elsbet Star

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    Regarding the beast--

    Here is the wisdom!
    He who is having the understanding, let him count the number of the beast, for the number of a man it is, and its number [is] 666.

    -------

    No, I don't think it's Islam but that is a personal opinion. I could be wrong. I do think it is significant that it is a man though-- not a belief system.

    Rev.17
    The beast that thou didst see: it was, and it is not; and it is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go away to destruction, and wonder shall those dwelling upon the earth, whose names have not been written upon the scroll of the life from the foundation of the world, beholding the beast that was, and is not, although it is.

    Rev.16

    .. and I saw [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs --

    for they are spirits of demons, doing signs -- which go forth unto the kings of the earth, and of the whole world, to bring them together to the battle of that great day of God the Almighty--
    -------

    Seems to me a whole lot older that Islam.. as though it goes way back-- it was, and is not.. It's coming out of the abyss, for Pete's sake. It's Ancient. And I have hard time believing that, even with the signs and wonders, the world would voluntarily give itself over to Islam. Because in the end, people must consent-- and many will because they are taken with the beast, itself. Technology may even come into play but that's another thread.

    And as a side note (with no biblical foundation that I can find), it would just be strange that possibly the descendants of Abraham through Ishmael would play this unfortunate role.
     
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  20. DesertRose

    DesertRose Star

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    The Rapture of Dominionists: Now Evangelicals are Dictating US Mideast Policy
    Evangelicals, Jerusalem
    [​IMG]
    “Of all the possible theological dog-whistles to his evangelical base, this is the biggest. Trump is reminding them that he is carrying out God’s will to these Last Days.” By Julie Ingersoll | (The Conversation) | – –
    President Trump’s announcement on Wednesday, Dec. 6 that the U.S. would recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel received widespread criticism. Observers quickly recognized the decision as related not so much to national security concerns as to domestic U.S. politics and promises candidate Trump made to his evangelical supporters, who welcomed the announcement..

    [​IMG]
    Why Jerusalem matters to evangelicals.


    It is true that evangelicals have often noted that their support for Trump is based in their conviction that God can use the unlikeliest of men to enact his will. But how did conservative American Christians become invested in such a fine point of Middle East policy as whether the U.S. Embassy is in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem?
    For many of President Trump’s evangelical supporters this is a key step in the progression of events leading to the second coming of Jesus. There’s an interesting story as to how that came to be.
    Ushering in the kingdom of God
    The nation of Israel and the role of the city of Jerusalem are central in the “end-times” theology – a form of what is known as “pre-millennialism” – embraced by many American conservative Protestants.
    While this theology is often thought of as a “literal” reading of the Bible, it’s actually a reasonably new interpretation that dates to the 19th century and relates to the work of Bible teacher John Nelson Darby.
    According to Darby, for this to happen the Jewish people must have control of Jerusalem and build a third Jewish temple on the site where the first and second temples – destroyed centuries ago by the Babylonians and Romans – once were. In Darby’s view this was a necessary precursor to the rapture, when believers would be “taken up” by Christ to escape the worst of the seven-year-period of suffering and turmoil on Earth: the Great Tribulation. This is to be followed by the cosmic battle between good and evil called Armageddon at which Satan will be defeated and Christ will establish his earthly kingdom. All of this became eminently more possible when the modern state of Israel was established in the 1940s.
    But to understand the power of this way of looking at the world, it is necessary to do more than point to theological tenets. It is their dissemination through culture that determines which thought systems take hold and which ones are lost to history.
    As author of “Building God’s Kingdom,” I focus on various aspects of conservative American Protestantism in American culture and politics. In my research I have seen how some thought systems get lost in history and others take hold.
    Here is what happened with the end-time narrative that made it a core undercurrent to how these Christians look at the world and history.
    The origins of this narrative
    The end-times framework was popularized in the 1970s with an inexpensive and widely available paperback by evangelist and Christian writer Hal Lindsey called “The Late Great Planet Earth.” Lindsey argued that the establishment of the state of Israel in the 1940s set up a chain of events that would lead to Jesus’s return.

    [​IMG]
    He calculated a date for that return in the 1980s. Lindsey, like many end-times prognosticators before him, argued that he lived in the “first time in history” when the biblical prophecies could possibly be fulfilled. This, he thought, was due in large part to the reestablishment of Israel.
    Despite his claim to be reading the Bible literally, Lindsey’s interpretation was far from literal. He said, for example, that the locusts predicted in the one of the plagues in the book of Revelation were “really” helicopters.
    As adults were reading Lindsey’s book, a generation of young people watched an “evangelistic” film, “A Thief in the Night,” in church services and youth group meetings.

    Beginning with an ominous ticking clock, the film begins at the rapture. It shows how all the faithful Christians suddenly disappeared. For those who remained, there was one more chance to accept the Gospel but that chance required living through extreme persecution.
    The film scared young people into conversion by depicting the experiences of these young Christians who were suffering because they had arrogantly dismissed warnings from their friends, families and churches to repent and had missed the rapture.
    According to scholar Amy Frykholm, an estimated 50 million to 300 million people viewed “A Thief in the Night.”
    The end-times and the culture wars
    The use of popular media to spread a terrifying vision of the end of history to draw young people into repentance continued in the 1980s with the apocalyptic novels of Frank Peretti. The Peretti novels depicted a vibrant and active spiritual world in which cosmic forces of good and evil were vying for supremacy all around us.
    As the book presented it, every person is obliged to play a part for one side or the other in very literal ways. This applies to all people: “True Christians” were meant to fight on God’s side, and the rest on the side of Satan. The first of these was called “This Present Darkness.”
    Though clearly recognized as fictional, these books were also perceived as “real.” For example, while the seat of the diabolical scheming was the fictional local college and the chief antagonist was a fictional professor, it wasn’t lost on readers that they were to perceive colleges and professors as likely enemies.
    The depiction of literal “good guys” and “bad guys” as regular people aligned with God and Satan, respectively, played into the increasingly divisive culture war battles of the time. These books were powerful and effective until a decade later when they were replaced in popular Christian culture by the “Left Behind” series, co-authored by culture warrior Tim LaHaye.
    These 16 books and four films, released over the course of a decade, also trace the lives of the latecoming believers who had missed the rapture and were now part of the “Tribulation Force,” as they endured the post rapture world and sought to remain faithful despite persecution. The series’ successes included a New York Times best-seller, while seven others set sales records. The entire series sold more than 65 million copies.

    [​IMG]

    It’s impossible to overemphasize the effects of this framework on those within the circles of evangelicalism where it is popular. A growing number of young people who have left evangelicalism point to end-times theology as a key component of the subculture they left. They call themselves “exvangelicals” and label teachings like this as abusive.
    It’s hard to get away from the invocation of mythic narratives in American politics. They get used often and are invented and reinvented to be deployed at different times in history. While supporters and opponents of the Trump announcement agree that the results might be cataclysmic, some of the supporters are happy. That is because they are reading it through a lens that promises the return of Jesus and the establishment of God’s kingdom.
    [​IMG]Editor’s note: in a previous version of this article the date of President Trump’s announcement about moving the US embassy to Jerusalem was incorrect. It has been corrected to Dec. 6.
    Julie Ingersoll, Professor of Religious Studies, University of North Florida
    This article was originally published on The Conversation. Read the original article.
    ——-
    http://www.theqharqadtree.com/2017/12/the-rapture-of-dominionists-now.html

    Who is playing what role?
     
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