Islam And Apostasy

mecca

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rainerann

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Personally, things like this make me feel really sad because if there is no choice to leave, than there are some people who feel forced to stay. It makes me feel sad. A lot of people say things like this. The difference is that things like this are not accepted by the west. We don't believe in executing people because they join or leave any religion. Here is an answering Islam site who says the same thing. There are a ton of sites that say the same thing published by people who are Muslim, not by people talking about Islam who are not followers. https://islamqa.info/en/20327

I am actually not able to find a site that tries to prove that this is not a true claim, unfortunately.
 

floss

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I know this doesn't applied to all Muslims since I knew plenty of peaceful Muslims at my work place. I let a Muslim guy used my office spaces to do his daily prayer. But nevertheless this is what being taught to young Muslims.
 
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GreenTea

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@JoChris Your link, further links to Daily Mail which states "A leader of a hardline Islamist group which campaigns for sharia law says Muslims who leave the religion should be put to death." These aren't moderate muslims, they're radicals.

I know I've posted this elsewhere on another thread but Islamic Hadiths were compiled over several generations after the death of Prophet Muhammed across both distance and time and therefore should be viewed with a hint of healthy skepticism. This is not to say they should be disregarded, but rather evaluated (currently muslims do have a strong-o-meter to determine how valid a certain hadith is) to see whether it contradicts anything in the Quran or in the life of the Prophet.

Here's a list of every verse in the Quran and every Hadith narrated by a scholar regarding apostasy - https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Apostasy

The closest verse that I believe refers to apostasy is:
"They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah. But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper." [04:89] The Women

Context? These are hypocrites living amongst a group of muslims, who are ultimately trying to turn everyone away from Islam. The Quran states let them move away and do not be friends with them because ultimately they want you to leave your religion. HOWEVER, if they are peaceful and wish to remain in peace with you then you have no reason to fight. (There are several translation http://quranx.com/4.88-90)

It's very easy to blindly agree with people of your faith when you haven't even looked in your religion, which is exactly what happens to a lot of muslims. https://islamwich.com/2013/04/24/apostates-in-islam/ The Quran repeatedly mentions that those who disbelieve will receive their punishment in the Hereafter. Also, during the lifetime of the Prophet he never once killed anyone for apostasy.

I do acknowledge that there are out of control radical muslims out there but honestly if they spread misinformation and commit crimes against humanity, they will be punished severely by the very God they claim to love.

[49:06] The Chambers says "O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful"
 

JoChris

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One guy doesn't represent the religion.
However it's a regular pattern for Muslims who take ALL the Islamic texts literally, not just the Quran. There is a much higher likelihood for death threats and actual murder in Islam majority nations.

Google results "islam apostasy", limit to news.
 

rainerann

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The guy in the video didn't sound very radical. He sounded like a fairly rational, responsible person. He seemed like he was probably fairly conservative person, probably with good family values, and good qualities who was hesitant to respond to this because of the way it would make it appear that he wanted his doctrine to promote a teaching like this. He didn't seem like the type of person who would want to be put in the position of addressing apostasy in this way, which is understandable. However, he still felt obligated to say that this was the way it was according to the doctrines of Islam. In a sense, this is way of demonstrating that he is not ashamed of this. This is an admirable quality.

Although, the matter still remains that this demonstrates that Islam is a till death do you part religion. The people who are saying this is true are Islamic sources, not sources trying to discredit Islam.

"The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allaah and that I am His Messenger, except in one of three cases: a soul for a soul (i.e., in the case of murder); a married man who commits adultery; and one who leaves his religion and splits form the jamaa’ah (main group of Muslims).” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6878; Muslim, 1676)

See al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah, 22/180.

Thus it will be clear to you that execution of the apostate is something that is commanded by Allaah, when he commanded us to obey the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as He says (interpretation of the meaning): " https://islamqa.info/en/20327

This is an Islam question answer site posting similar information.

There are several Islamic sources that attempt to emphasize that this is addressing treason or that someone would have to say something negative about Islam and this would entail the punishment of apostacy. However, the result is still the same. This is a till death do you part type of religion and it is important for people to be aware of this if they have not joined the religion. It is important to realize that there are some rather severe consequences for leaving the religion. It is nothing like trying a new resturant, not having a good experience, and posting a review on Yelp. Posting a bad review could be considered treason and some people would think you deserved the death penalty because of this. Whether they would be able to enforce this would depend on the location the person was living in.
 
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1) hizb ul tahrir, they're an old and well known revivalist movement. They aren't taken seriously but they are well known in the UK.
2) islamqa is a notorious salafist type website.

can you show me normal educated mainstream sunnis who believe this?
if you barely know islam, you shouldn't type nonsense online.


@rainerann
the problem with quoting hadith is that even if the Prophet SAW did it, no one else is the Prophet SAW.
The Quran clearly says "there is no compulsion in religion"

tell me it doesn't say that?

If you're a Christian then you also believe Jesus Christ will be laying waste to billions of people when he returns.....
sure thing, you might not personally be doing it, but the fact you believe he will and still bang on about the 'love' of God shows you're hypocrites.
(if you're not a christian then this doesn't apply to you).
 

rainerann

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"Once a person enters into the fold of Islam, the rules change. As soon as you become a Muslim by your own choice, you are expected to submit yourself to Allāh totally and completely.

"O you who believe! Enter into submission, kāffatan!"(2:208)

Kāffatan gives the sense of "all" and "completely". Once a person becomes a believer, he surrenders the right of making decisions to Allāh and the Messenger:

"No believing man and no believing woman has a choice in their own affairs when Allāh and His Messenger have decided on an issue." (33:36)

Even the question of apostasy, irtidād or deserting of one's faith, for a Muslim, is a religious (shar`i) issue and even in this issue he is governed by the laws of Islam. And Islam clearly says: No! You cannot become an apostate. After coming into the fold of Islam, rejection of the fundamentals is not tolerated. If there are doubts in your mind about the fundamental beliefs of Islam, then question, discuss, debate, study, and solve them BUT you are not allowed to leave Islam or desert your own fitra!"

Therefore, you are right in saying that there may be no compulsion in becoming Muslim, but once you are, the rules change. The other main thing that comes out of a discussion on apostasy within Islam is the issue of censorship within these verses. It is all well and good to say that so and so is a moderate Muslim and the death penalty only applies to radical Islam. However, whether this verse is still clearly suggesting censorship of anyone who would say something negative about Islam.

""They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah. But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper." [04:89]

Censorship is clearly a component of the subject of apostasy.

"
Just as upholding and protecting the constitution of a country is sign of patriotism, and undermining it is a form of treason - in the same way open rejection of the fundamental beliefs of Islam by a Muslim is an act of treason.

Apostasy, i.e., the public declaration of rejecting the fundamentals of Islam, has also negative influence on the Muslim society; it is indeed a major fitna. And that is why Islam has prescribed harsh punishment for irtidād...

The punishment prescribed by the shari`ah for apostasy is death.

Even the terms used by the shari`ah for apostates give the idea of treason to this whole phenomenon. "Murtad" means apostate. Murtad can be of two types: fitri and milli.

(1) "Murtad Fitri" means a person who is born of a Muslim parent and then he rejects Islam. "Fitrah" means creation. The term "murtad fitri" implies that the person has apostate from the faith in which he was born.
(2) "Murtad Milli" means a person who converted to Islam and then later on he rejects Islam. Milli is from millat which means religion. The term "murtad milli" implies that the person has apostated from his religion and the Muslim community.

In the first case, the apostasy is like the treason against God; whereas in the second case, the apostasy is like the treason against the Muslim community. Probably, that is why the Sh`iah jurisprudence deals with these two kinds of murtads differently:

• A former kāfir who became a Muslim and then apostates (murtad milli), he is given a second chance: if he repents, then he is not to be killed; but if he does not repent, then he is to be killed.

• But one who is born as a Muslim and then apostates (murtad fitri), he is to be killed even if he repents. It is important to understand that in case a murtad fitri repents, Allāh may accept his repentance and he may be forgiven in the hereafter, but he still has to go through the punishment prescribed for his treason in this world.7

This punishment is only applicable in case of apostasy by men; in case of women, the punishment is not death but life imprisonment. And if such a woman repents, then her repentance is accepted and the punishment is lifted.

However, on the issue of apostasy,
the Qur'ān only talks about the consequence of an apostate in the hereafter: whether his repentance will be accepted or not; the nullification of his good deeds; and the punishment in the hereafter. The laws dealing with worldly punishments for apostasy have been outlined in the authentic and reliable ahādāth of the Imams of Ahlul Bayt (a.s.).10

Here is a selection of the ahādāth on this issue:

1. Shaykh al-Kulayni narrates a sahāh (correct) hadith from `Ammār as-Sābāti who said: I heard (Imam) Abu `Abdullāh (as-Sādiq) (a.s.) saying, "A Muslim from among the Muslims who renounces Islam and rejects the prophethood of Muhammad and considers him untrue, then verily his blood is lawful (mubāh) for anyone who hears that from him, his wife is to be separated from him the day he became murtad, his wealth will be divided among his heirs, and his wife will observe the`idda of a widow (i.e., four months). The Imam is obliged to kill him, and not ask him to seek forgiveness."


So this is another source of information on Islam from a Muslim perspective recognizing and admitting that the Quran only talks about the consequence of apostasy in the hereafter, like others have already mentioned. However, I feel like that verse still implies a censorship that doesn't exactly mesh well with concepts like freedom of speech. I would like to ask you whether you are living in a country that has applied some application of freedom of speech to their community? What are the advantages and disadvantages to this concept of freedom of speech? If you agree there are advantages to having freedom of speech, does that not indicate that Islamic law is not perfect or infalliable? Finally, what would happen if someone advocated greater freedom of speech within the Islamic community? Would they be accepted or rejected because of the way supporting increased freedom of speech negatively reflected on the image of an infallible religion?

Additionally, there are clearly additional laws regarding apostasy that are part of Islamic doctrine and appear to work in two ways. First, they censor anyone from speaking negatively about Islam. Second, they make capital punishment an option in the case of apostasy. Therefore, this is a till death do you part religion.
https://www.al-islam.org/articles/apostacy-islam-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi
 

mecca

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"Once a person enters into the fold of Islam, the rules change. As soon as you become a Muslim by your own choice, you are expected to submit yourself to Allāh totally and completely.

"O you who believe! Enter into submission, kāffatan!"(2:208)

Kāffatan gives the sense of "all" and "completely". Once a person becomes a believer, he surrenders the right of making decisions to Allāh and the Messenger:

"No believing man and no believing woman has a choice in their own affairs when Allāh and His Messenger have decided on an issue." (33:36)

Even the question of apostasy, irtidād or deserting of one's faith, for a Muslim, is a religious (shar`i) issue and even in this issue he is governed by the laws of Islam. And Islam clearly says: No! You cannot become an apostate. After coming into the fold of Islam, rejection of the fundamentals is not tolerated. If there are doubts in your mind about the fundamental beliefs of Islam, then question, discuss, debate, study, and solve them BUT you are not allowed to leave Islam or desert your own fitra!"

Therefore, you are right in saying that there may be no compulsion in becoming Muslim, but once you are, the rules change. The other main thing that comes out of a discussion on apostasy within Islam is the issue of censorship within these verses. It is all well and good to say that so and so is a moderate Muslim and the death penalty only applies to radical Islam. However, whether this verse is still clearly suggesting censorship of anyone who would say something negative about Islam.

""They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah. But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper." [04:89]

Censorship is clearly a component of the subject of apostasy.

"
Just as upholding and protecting the constitution of a country is sign of patriotism, and undermining it is a form of treason - in the same way open rejection of the fundamental beliefs of Islam by a Muslim is an act of treason.

Apostasy, i.e., the public declaration of rejecting the fundamentals of Islam, has also negative influence on the Muslim society; it is indeed a major fitna. And that is why Islam has prescribed harsh punishment for irtidād...

The punishment prescribed by the shari`ah for apostasy is death.

Even the terms used by the shari`ah for apostates give the idea of treason to this whole phenomenon. "Murtad" means apostate. Murtad can be of two types: fitri and milli.

(1) "Murtad Fitri" means a person who is born of a Muslim parent and then he rejects Islam. "Fitrah" means creation. The term "murtad fitri" implies that the person has apostate from the faith in which he was born.
(2) "Murtad Milli" means a person who converted to Islam and then later on he rejects Islam. Milli is from millat which means religion. The term "murtad milli" implies that the person has apostated from his religion and the Muslim community.

In the first case, the apostasy is like the treason against God; whereas in the second case, the apostasy is like the treason against the Muslim community. Probably, that is why the Sh`iah jurisprudence deals with these two kinds of murtads differently:

• A former kāfir who became a Muslim and then apostates (murtad milli), he is given a second chance: if he repents, then he is not to be killed; but if he does not repent, then he is to be killed.

• But one who is born as a Muslim and then apostates (murtad fitri), he is to be killed even if he repents. It is important to understand that in case a murtad fitri repents, Allāh may accept his repentance and he may be forgiven in the hereafter, but he still has to go through the punishment prescribed for his treason in this world.7

This punishment is only applicable in case of apostasy by men; in case of women, the punishment is not death but life imprisonment. And if such a woman repents, then her repentance is accepted and the punishment is lifted.

However, on the issue of apostasy,
the Qur'ān only talks about the consequence of an apostate in the hereafter: whether his repentance will be accepted or not; the nullification of his good deeds; and the punishment in the hereafter. The laws dealing with worldly punishments for apostasy have been outlined in the authentic and reliable ahādāth of the Imams of Ahlul Bayt (a.s.).10

Here is a selection of the ahādāth on this issue:

1. Shaykh al-Kulayni narrates a sahāh (correct) hadith from `Ammār as-Sābāti who said: I heard (Imam) Abu `Abdullāh (as-Sādiq) (a.s.) saying, "A Muslim from among the Muslims who renounces Islam and rejects the prophethood of Muhammad and considers him untrue, then verily his blood is lawful (mubāh) for anyone who hears that from him, his wife is to be separated from him the day he became murtad, his wealth will be divided among his heirs, and his wife will observe the`idda of a widow (i.e., four months). The Imam is obliged to kill him, and not ask him to seek forgiveness."


So this is another source of information on Islam from a Muslim perspective recognizing and admitting that the Quran only talks about the consequence of apostasy in the hereafter, like others have already mentioned. However, I feel like that verse still implies a censorship that doesn't exactly mesh well with concepts like freedom of speech. I would like to ask you whether you are living in a country that has applied some application of freedom of speech to their community? What are the advantages and disadvantages to this concept of freedom of speech? If you agree there are advantages to having freedom of speech, does that not indicate that Islamic law is not perfect or infalliable? Finally, what would happen if someone advocated greater freedom of speech within the Islamic community? Would they be accepted or rejected because of the way supporting increased freedom of speech negatively reflected on the image of an infallible religion?

Additionally, there are clearly additional laws regarding apostasy that are part of Islamic doctrine and appear to work in two ways. First, they censor anyone from speaking negatively about Islam. Second, they make capital punishment an option in the case of apostasy. Therefore, this is a till death do you part religion.
https://www.al-islam.org/articles/apostacy-islam-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi
Anyone can leave or join if they want to... you're making a big deal trying to discredit a whole religion for no reason.
 

rainerann

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"[7] Some Muslims understand the words “there is no compulsion in religion” to mean that even Muslims cannot be obliged to follow the laws of Islam. This is an error. The freedom given in the Qur`an is the freedom to choose a religion. But once a religion has been chosen, a person can be obliged to follow some of its laws (5:43, 47). In particular, once a person has freely chosen to accept Islam, he or she can and in some cases must be obliged to follow its laws. This is similar to the way a person who freely enters a country is obliged to follow the laws of that country."

"9:66 Make no excuses. You have disbelieved after your belief. If We pardon some of you, We (may) punish others amongst you, for they are guilty."

Another source from an Islamic perspective, not someone trying to discredit Islam.

http://www.islamicperspectives.com/apostasy1.htm
 
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mecca

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"[7] Some Muslims understand the words “there is no compulsion in religion” to mean that even Muslims cannot be obliged to follow the laws of Islam. This is an error. The freedom given in the Qur`an is the freedom to choose a religion. But once a religion has been chosen, a person can be obliged to follow some of its laws (5:43, 47). In particular, once a person has freely chosen to accept Islam, he or she can and in some cases must be obliged to follow its laws. This is similar to the way a person who freely enters a country is obliged to follow the laws of that country."

"9:66 Make no excuses. You have disbelieved after your belief. If We pardon some of you, We (may) punish others amongst you, for they are guilty."

Another source from an Islamic perspective, not someone trying to discredit Islam.
You're not supposed to kill people. No one cares if someone feels like leaving the religion.
 

manama

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Like i explained before the only punishment for the people leaving the faith depending on their other deeds will be in next life aka hell and that too depending on other deeds

Just because a few people are idiotic extremists doesnt make it part of the religious teaching itself

Some people have added their own ridiculous laws in sharia which neither have a basis in quran nor hadith and that is why most muslim countries dont follow the sharia
 

JoChris

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You're not supposed to kill people. No one cares if someone feels like leaving the religion.
How do you explain these stories?

USA: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/444556/muslim-apostates-north-america-face-leftist-scorn-muslim-death-threats

UK: http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/15093631.Father_forced_to_move_after_renouncing_Islam_calls_for_more_action_on_hate_crime/

Malaysia: http://www.lapidomedia.com/battle-secular-malaysia

Canada: https://pjmedia.com/homeland-security/2017/02/28/can-i-criticize-islam-without-fearing-for-my-life/

France: http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/lauretta-brown/kurdish-christian-reports-receiving-death-threats-muslims-french-refugee

NOTE: made effort not to select any countries in Middle East, because they seem to be a lot more militant (or devout, depends what side of fence you're on) than other Muslim countries like Indonesia

Death threats for moderate Muslims too:
http://www.meforum.org/6484/death-threats-are-nothing-new-for-muslim-reformers

It took NO time at all to find hundreds of results that were relevant.
 

GreenTea

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There's a phenomenon called Availability Heuristic. Now in very simple terms it means available information that you have readily available about any particular topic. An example is having loads of plane crashes being shown in the media; while people may start fearing travelling what most don't think about is that the actual % of the planes who crash are very low (the odds are 1 in 11 million). Yet if I google plane crashes, the amount of news stories and plane crash videos that I can easily get would never make me believe its odds of occurring.

Another example is the US elections which took place in Nov 2016. People were so convinced that Hilary would win because that's exactly what the media showed - overwhelming support from celebrities and people all around the world. Everybody was convinced that Hilary would win by a long margin and yet actual statistics supported Trump.

Similarly, you will never hear stories about ex-muslims who've left their religion peacefully in the media. But obviously the ones who've faced hostility would report to the media in order to gain security.
 

JoChris

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If you can find websites where ex-Muslims say they have left Islam WITHOUT any persecution, rejection by family members and/or negative outcomes I would be very interested in reading some.
 

manama

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If you can find websites where ex-Muslims say they have left Islam WITHOUT any persecution, rejection by family members and/or negative outcomes I would be very interested in reading some.
not everyone is out there begging for attention
some people leave the faith like no big deal and move on with their lives
some cut family ties and move on with their lives
but some special snowflakes are out there trying to squeeze popularity over the smallest things
 
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