Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?

[Axl888]

To all muslim members on this forum,

The Qur'an said, "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).

If Allah says "let there be no compulsion in religion", then why Saudi Arabia (today) the very center of the religion called Islam, the country where the beloved prophet of all muslims was born, outlaws the practice of other religions in that country? Is Saudi Arabia disobeying Allah? Furthermore, why non-muslims cannot enter their holy cities Mecca and Madinah?

Please let us hear your honest thoughts on this, thank you.

 

[Axl888]

Well, I guess non-muslims can also give their thoughts on this, since people who suppose to answer the questions are seem to be avoiding the topic.

 

[Haich]

And who said Saudi Arabia is fbe centre of islam? Their regime isn't reflective of what sharia should be and most muslims aren't in support of their practices.

As for Mecca and Madina, it's a holy site which has no importance for other Faiths. I dont see how closing it to other people of Faiths is wrong since it is of no importance to most.


What exactly are you trying to get? You didn't need to make a thread to ask such basic questions

 

[Axl888]

And who said Saudi Arabia is fbe centre of islam? Their regime isn't reflective of what sharia should be and most muslims aren't in support of their practices.

If Saudi Arabia where Madinah, Mecca and the Kaabah is located, the place where muslims do their hajj and umrah, the country where your beloved prophet was born (of which you do your prayer and even build your mosques in that direction), is not the geographical center of Islam, where is it then?

So if the religious leaders (ulama) and the regime in Saudi Arabia are not following the Qur'an and disobeying Allah, shouldn't muslims like you who know what is right and follow the way according to Qur'an (Sharia Law) be rebuking and denouncing them for their sake and the sake of Islam as so-called religion of peace? Do you rebuke and denounce the ulama and the regime of Saudi Arabia?

As for Mecca and Madina, it's a holy site which has no importance for other Faiths. I dont see how closing it to other people of Faiths is wrong since it is of no importance to most.

Well, muslims are free to roam (as tourists) on other religions' holy places which has likewise no importance to muslims, so why non-muslims cannot do the same to your holy places? This can also be considered religious compulsion because one cannot enter and see those places unless a muslim or converted muslim.

What exactly are you trying to get? You didn't need to make a thread to ask such basic questions

Why not? As far as I know, everybody is free to make their own thread here in the forum. What is so wrong with this thread by the way? Is it wrong to ask questions about Islam and Qur'an?

 

[Infinityloop]

If Saudi Arabia where Madinah, Mecca and the Kaabah is located, the place where muslims do their hajj and umrah, the country where your beloved prophet was born (of which you do your prayer and even build your mosques in that direction), is not the geographical center of Islam, where is it then?

In relation to the Kaaba and the place of the major part of the reception of the Qur'an and early followers of Muhammad, yes it is regarded as the most sacred place in Islam.

Saudi politics is a whole other ball game and I find it hilarious if you expect Muslims to be supportive of the Saudi family or Saudis political ideology

So if the religious leaders (ulama) and the regime in Saudi Arabia are not following the Qur'an and disobeying Allah, shouldn't muslims like you who know what is right and follow the way according to Qur'an (Sharia Law) be rebuking and denouncing them for their sake and the sake of Islam as so-called religion of peace? Do you rebuke and denounce the ulama and the regime of Saudi Arabia?

Why do you act like this doesn't happen? I see my fellow Muslims mocking Saudi quite frequently actually, for numerous reasons.

Well, muslims are free to roam (as tourists) on other religions' holy places which has likewise no importance to muslims, so why non-muslims cannot do the same to your holy places? This can also be considered religious compulsion because one cannot enter and see those places unless a muslim or converted muslim.

This is between you and the Saudi government.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Axl888

I think there is certainly ambiguity in the message of the Qur’an. I think this is why there are often brackets in certain sections of the English translations of the Qur’an to present a more “reasonable” interpretation of what is actually being said.

Sura 5:32

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

The bold type paraphrases the Talmud...

https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/history-ideas/2016/10/the-origins-of-the-precept-whoever-saves-a-life-saves-the-world/

Sura 5:33 changes the tone significantly...

Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

 

[Infinityloop]

If Allah says "let there be no compulsion in religion", then why Saudi Arabia (today) the very center of the religion called Islam, the country where the beloved prophet of all muslims was born, outlaws the practice of other religions in that country?

For the record, there are considerable numbers of Christians and even Hindus in Saudi. I've met Christians before who have actually lived there for a period of time without trouble.
Saudi are Salafis/Wahhabis though, so they are known to heavily oppress Shia Muslims (which is less allowed there than Christianity, which is utterly absurd).

Anyway, you give too much credit to Saudi in general, they're not an authority on most of the world's Muslims, in fact an enemy of many. It's a massive shame though that these people are the ones who happen to be in power of it in the present time.

 

[Axl888]

In relation to the Kaaba and the place of the major part of the reception of the Qur'an and early followers of Muhammad, yes it is regarded as the most sacred place in Islam.

So contrary to Haich, you agree that Saudi Arabia where Mecca and Kaabah is located, is the geographical center of Islam.

Haich have different opinion on the center of Islam, I am quite curious about that.

Saudi politics is a whole other ball game and I find it hilarious if you expect Muslims to be supportive of the Saudi family or Saudis political ideology

But we all know well that it is the religious leaders (ulema) who steers the sharia law, all laws and regulations are placed and implemented based on their interpretation of the Qur'an, hadiths, etc., and judging from the royal family's lifestyles and excesses, i bet they do not really care about what the Qur'an says, and I bet they would just follow whatever the powerful ulema says (unless of course it affects their lifestyle), you cannot blame political ideology here, because the political ideology is also the religion which is Islam, and I believe there is no distinction in Sharia law.

Why do you act like this doesn't happen? I see my fellow Muslims mocking Saudi quite frequently actually, for numerous reasons.

Honestly, I never see it happening when it comes to religious compulsion in that country.

 

[Infinityloop]

So contrary to Haich, you agree that Saudi Arabia where Mecca and Kaabah is located, is the geographical center of Islam.

I very much doubt that Haich disagrees about anything I've said, I think that he/she meant Saudi as literal leaders, of which Haich is correct because there is no central authority. Mecca is the sacred city though for aforementioned reasons that have nothing to do with politics. Do you get this now?

But we all know well that it is the religious leaders (ulema) who steers the sharia law, all laws and regulations are placed and implemented based on their interpretation of the Qur'an, hadiths, etc., and judging from the royal family's lifestyles and excesses, i bet they do not really care about what the Qur'an says, and I bet they would just follow whatever the powerful ulema says (unless of course it affects their lifestyle), you cannot blame political ideology here, because the political ideology is also the religion which is Islam, and I believe there is no distinction in Sharia law.

Argument from ignorance is not a compelling discourse brother. Islam is very anti-Usury and not compatible with capitalism. It just happens to be that Saudi are very interested in Capitalism and even have massive intentions in that area (Neom).
The rest of what you say is just opinion.
Also stop calling it "Sharia Law", it's just Sharia and you probably don't even know what it even is if you're using that memetical phrase.

Honestly, I never see it happening when it comes to religious compulsion in that country.

You've clearly not talked to enough Muslims about Saudi then The amount of fellow Muslims I've met that are either strictly opposed to Saudi (and at the least, indifferent) strongly outweigh those that I've met who support Saudi. I for one see Saudi as a massive joke and intentional mockery of our religion and of our holy place within their borders.

 

[Axl888]

For the record, there are considerable numbers of Christians and even Hindus in Saudi. I've met Christians before who have actually lived there for a period of time without trouble.
Saudi are Salafis/Wahhabis though, so they are known to heavily oppress Shia Muslims (which is less allowed there than Christianity, which is utterly absurd).

Anyway, you give too much credit to Saudi in general, they're not an authority on most of the world's Muslims, in fact an enemy of many. It's a massive shame though that these people are the ones who happen to be in power of it in the present time.

Yes you are right, there are a lot of other nationalities with different religions in there, but these people cannot practice their religion otherwise they will face arrest, put to jail and deported. The mere possession of a Bible will land you to jail (or worst flogged) in that country.

 

[Axl888]

@Axl888

I think there is certainly ambiguity in the message of the Qur’an. I think this is why there are often brackets in certain sections of the English translations of the Qur’an to present a more “reasonable” interpretation of what is actually being said.

Sura 5:32

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

The bold type paraphrases the Talmud...

https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/history-ideas/2016/10/the-origins-of-the-precept-whoever-saves-a-life-saves-the-world/

Sura 5:33 changes the tone significantly...

Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

That is why some genius will always find a way to present a different interpretation of the scriptures to suit their agenda.

I don't know if you are familiar with this so-called "Hermeneutic Hygiene" (in the Bible context), I found it very insightful when the late Chuck Missler discussed about this on youtube (just last night). I have been watching old Chuck Missler videos lately

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

That is why some genius will always find a way to present a different interpretation of the scriptures to suit their agenda.

I don't know if you are familiar with this so-called "Hermeneutic Hygiene" (in the Bible context), I found it very insightful when the late Chuck Missler discussed about this on youtube (just last night). I have been watching old Chuck Missler videos lately

I have been watching Chuck Missler for some time now - what an inspiring guy!

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/chuck-missler.3699/

 

[Infinityloop]

Yes you are right, there are a lot of other nationalities with different religions in there, but these people cannot practice their religion otherwise they will face arrest, put to jail and deported. The mere possession of a Bible will land you to jail (or worst flogged) in that country.

I know you want to preach here but really, that's quite absurd. Certainly didn't happen to the Christians I knew.
It's quite obvious that a jailed Christian would be jailed on something more extreme than simply possessing a Bible, when they are legally allowed to live there like anyone else
Christians in general get a better rep there than other forms of Muslims, it's just the way Saudi is.

 

[Haich]

What does saudi law have to do with islam? We've already established they dont represent islam.

 

[Haich]

I have a christian friend in Jeddah working as a teacher. There are tons of experts in Saudi and they are from an array for different Faiths.

They aren't hanged or punished for having different beliefs so please don't chat nonsense.

The only thing which is banned is preaching in the streets.

 

[Axl888]

I know you want to preach here but really, that's quite absurd. Certainly didn't happen to the Christians I knew.
It's quite obvious that a jailed Christian would be jailed on something more extreme than simply possessing a Bible, when they are legally allowed to live there like anyone else
Christians in general get a better rep there than other forms of Muslims, it's just the way Saudi is.

I am sure those Christians you know if ever they are doing Bible studies or religious gatherings, they are doing it in secret.

Are you now in Saudi Arabia?

 

[Axl888]

I have a christian friend in Jeddah working as a teacher. There are tons of experts in Saudi and they are from an array for different Faiths.

They aren't hanged or punished for having different beliefs so please don't chat nonsense.

The only thing which is banned is preaching in the streets.

Nobody is saying that a Christian or Hindu or Buddhist cannot work in Saudi Arabia, so you are saying for certain that other religion can practice their faith there? Is there already a Christian church in Saudi Arabia let say in Riyadh? Even in Jeddah or Al-Khobar/Dammam which is less strict than other places, you wont see any Christian gathering (not preaching just among Christians themselves) in the open, it is all in secret. I know this because I have been there.

 

[JoChris]

To all muslim members on this forum,

The Qur'an said, "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).

If Allah says "let there be no compulsion in religion", then why Saudi Arabia (today) the very center of the religion called Islam, the country where the beloved prophet of all muslims was born, outlaws the practice of other religions in that country? Is Saudi Arabia disobeying Allah? Furthermore, why non-muslims cannot enter their holy cities Mecca and Madinah?

Please let us hear your honest thoughts on this, thank you.

There technically is no compulsion, but if you refuse to convert to Islam / become an apostate from Islam you are an Enemy of Islam and therefore must be killed UNLESS you repent (probably with a sword to the throat or equivalent)

From the Book that is completely infallible according to Islam:

Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

Except for those who return [repenting] before you apprehend them. And know that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

https://quran.com/5/33-34

So you can choose to convert/ repent, or choose to be killed. Technically a choice and therefore not compulsion, yes.

 

[Infinityloop]

So you can choose to convert, or choose to be killed. Technically a choice and therefore not compulsion, yes.

So, you're telling me that someone is waiting to kill me right now if I don't convert to something? lmao.

 

[Infinityloop]

but if you refuse to convert to Islam / become an apostate from Islam you are an Enemy of Islam and therefore must be killed UNLESS you repent (probably with a sword to the throat or equivalent)

By and from who?