Is there a difference between the way Jews and Christians understand "Zionism"?

[TokiEl]

When Pilate declared himself innocent of the blood of Christ, Caiaphas answered defiantly, "His blood be on us, and on our children." The awful words were taken up by the priests and rulers, and echoed by the crowd in an inhuman roar of voices. The whole multitude answered and said, "His blood be on us, and on our children."
Looking upon the smitten Lamb of God, the Jews had cried, "His blood be on us, and on our children." That awful cry ascended to the throne of God. That sentence, pronounced upon themselves, was written in heaven. That prayer was heard. The blood of the Son of God was upon their children and their children's children, a perpetual curse.

The death of the Son of God isn't a trifling matter and I've asked this before but I'll ask again. I don't have an answer, so I want to know what others think. Why did Christ charge that generation with not only His blood but also that of all the righteous people since Abel, and the magnitude that portends?

The Jews were actually almost annihilated by the Romans and the rest enslaved or escaped throughout the world until a lot of them were annihilated by the Germans. So God has righteously rewarded the wickedness of His people.

But He brought them back into His land because of His name and reputation.

(Luke 11:50-51/Matt 23:34-36)
Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world,
from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

Strangely enough, about Babylon, both John and Jeremiah state that:

Revelation 18:24
In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people, of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.’

Jeremiah 51:49
As Babylon hath caused the slain of Israel to fall, so at Babylon shall fall the slain of all the earth.

Babylon the Great is not ancient nor modern Israel. But the city which reigns over the kings of the world.

 

[Karlysymon]

I don't think the difference can be any better, more succinctly, summarized than it (reportedly) was by Irving Kristol, a Jewish grandfather of so called neoconservatism, when he said:

"It is their [that is, Christians'] theology, but our Israel."​

From the link, you have Gary Bauer, a PNAC (which materialized as Bush's foreign policy) signatory who also is an executive board member of CUFI. What could possibly go wrong?

The website is a treasure trove. Thanks!

 

[rainerann]

The Jews were actually almost annihilated by the Romans and the rest enslaved or escaped throughout the world until a lot of them were annihilated by the Germans. So God has righteously rewarded the wickedness of His people.

But He brought them back into His land because of His name and reputation.







Babylon the Great is not ancient nor modern Israel. But the city which reigns over the kings of the world.

The Jews were attacked by the Romans when they revolted against them more than once. The Romans didn't spontaneously start thinking one day that the world would be a better place without Jews. They tried to start a revolution and then one of the first noteworthy false Messiah's Simon bar Kokhba led a revolt against Rome that didn't end up lasting long. So, in theory, if the people hadn't chosen to follow a false Messiah, this whole piece of history you are talking about would have never happened. In any case, the Jews were not pillaged while they were standing around tending the sheep. They acted as the aggressors in many cases. They initiated the revolt that led to bad outcomes. They just lost and so modern Zionism uses this to paint a picture that they were victims. They were never victims.

 

[Serveto]

From the link, you have Gary Bauer, a PNAC (which materialized as Bush's foreign policy) signatory who also is an executive board member of CUFI. What could possibly go wrong?

Another "a" might need to be added to PNAC, making it PNAAC, standing for Project for the New Arguably American Century. And what could possibly go wrong indeed! Welcome back, by the way, your absence was noticed and you were missed!

 

[Kung Fu]

The Jews were attacked by the Romans when they revolted against them more than once. The Romans didn't spontaneously start thinking one day that the world would be a better place without Jews. They tried to start a revolution and then one of the first noteworthy false Messiah's Simon bar Kokhba led a revolt against Rome that didn't end up lasting long. So, in theory, if the people hadn't chosen to follow a false Messiah, this whole piece of history you are talking about would have never happened. In any case, the Jews were not pillaged while they were standing around tending the sheep. They acted as the aggressors in many cases. They initiated the revolt that led to bad outcomes. They just lost and so modern Zionism uses this to paint a picture that they were victims. They were never victims.

Jews throughout history have been oppressed and or booted out but the question is why have many people from varying tribes, clans, nations, and geographies gone out and done this? Can it be that all these different people of tribes, clans, and nations spanning over multiple continents and different time periods just want to go after the Jews only as a kind of scapegoat? Well if people actually believe that, which Zionists want you to believe, than not only is that practically improbable but downright stupid to think.

I believe there is a significant amount of a specific group of Jews that are doing things that EVERYONE else views as deceitful and immoral which then gets all the Jews in trouble.

 

[Karlysymon]

Another "a" might need to be added to PNAC, making it PNAAC, standing for Project for the New Arguably American Century. And what could possibly go wrong indeed! Welcome back, by the way, your absence was noticed and you were missed!

Thank you. Glad to be back.

That nexus is terrifying but for me, that makes the creation of CUFI questionable and the cause(s) it champions, to say nothing of the founder.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Jews throughout history have been oppressed and or booted out but the question is why have many people from varying tribes, clans, nations, and geographies gone out and done this? Can it be that all these different people of tribes, clans, and nations spanning over multiple continents and different time periods just want to go after the Jews only as a kind of scapegoat? Well if people actually believe that, which Zionists want you to believe, than not only is that practically improbable but downright stupid to think.

I believe there is a significant amount of a specific group of Jews that are doing things that EVERYONE else views as deceitful and immoral which then gets all the Jews in trouble.

That...

or satan wants them dead, like Haman in the book of Esther in order to prove that God is incapable of keeping his promise to Abraham.

 

[TokiEl]

The Jews were attacked by the Romans when they revolted against them more than once. The Romans didn't spontaneously start thinking one day that the world would be a better place without Jews. They tried to start a revolution and then one of the first noteworthy false Messiah's Simon bar Kokhba led a revolt against Rome that didn't end up lasting long. So, in theory, if the people hadn't chosen to follow a false Messiah, this whole piece of history you are talking about would have never happened. In any case, the Jews were not pillaged while they were standing around tending the sheep. They acted as the aggressors in many cases. They initiated the revolt that led to bad outcomes. They just lost and so modern Zionism uses this to paint a picture that they were victims. They were never victims.

The point is that God foretold and Jesus confirmed that this calamity would come to them.

 

[Kung Fu]

That...

or satan wants them dead, like Haman in the book of Esther in order to prove that God is incapable of keeping his promise to Abraham.

That's a hard sell and many will simply not buy it especially when looking at the world today. If your actions and motives are deceitful and immoral it's no surprise that people of all backgrounds are going to try to boot you out of their homes.

God keeps His promise to those who love God, uphold His laws, and hold Him as their sole Provider. He does not love transgressors and those who bathe in sin.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Kung Fu

"That's a hard sell and many will simply not buy it especially when looking at the world today."

In the most important way, it is so good that the truth of things will ultimately not be tried in the court of human opinion. I simply told you how I saw things, how they really "are" is a unconnected matter, neither more or less true for my opinion.

 

[Kung Fu]

@Kung Fu

"That's a hard sell and many will simply not buy it especially when looking at the world today."

In the most important way, it is so good that the truth of things will ultimately not be tried in the court of human opinion. I simply told you how I saw things, how they really "are" is a unconnected matter, neither more or less true for my opinion.

Well I deal in facts and and facts are that the majority of the world works like slaves while the usury eaters get rich off of our work without ever getting their own hands dirty. When people see this of course, it's going to anger them because it goes against what people perceive to be good.

I am a man of logic and I believe in justice. I would a buffoon to think that my Lord is not Just and that He blesses people that continually transgress against Him. You might believe that but I'm definitely not going too. Have you ever stopped to think for once that perhaps it's not Satan who is at work when it comes to the oppression of Jews but rather Jews doing stupid things to themselves which get them in trouble? Stupidity only begets stupidity and God has surely shown that to us when it comes to the Jews countless times throughout history.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Well I deal in facts and and facts are that the majority of the world works like slaves while the usury eaters get rich off of our work without ever getting their own hands dirty. When people see this of course, it's going to anger them because it goes against what people perceive to be good.

I am a man of logic and I believe in justice. I would a buffoon to think that my Lord is not Just and that He blesses people that continually transgress against Him. You might believe that but I'm definitely not going too. Have you ever stopped to think for once that perhaps it's not Satan who is at work when it comes to the oppression of Jews but rather Jews doing stupid things to themselves which get them in trouble? Stupidity only begets stupidity and God has surely shown that to us when it comes to the Jews countless times throughout history.

Has it occurred to you that God, for his own purposes may have gathered together Jews (the good and the bad ones) back to their original homeland for an "appointment", rather than an unreserved stamp of approval?

As I read the Bible, they are not in for an easy ride!

 

[Kung Fu]

Has it occurred to you that God, for his own purposes may have gathered together Jews (the good and the bad ones) back to their original homeland for an "appointment", rather than an unreserved stamp of approval?

As I read the Bible, they are not in for an easy ride!

Ultimately everything that occurs within this universe happens in accordance with the Will of the Most of the High so in the truest sense it is God who has put things in place the way they are now but that still doesn't change the fact that we as humans should strive for justice, kindness, and to NOT cause corruption throughout the land. Corruption only begets more corruption. If you decide to sin and something bad happens to you down the line you don't blame God for it but rather blame yourself. God allowed it to happen but it was you that took the initiative to do evil.

Jesus, through the Will of the Father, will settle all accounts on earth during his return.

 

[UnderAlienControl]

'Orthodox Judaism Is a Religion of Lying and Deceit' - The Saker Interviews Michael Hoffman
https://russia-insider.com/en/orthodox-judaism-religion-lying-and-deceit-saker-interviews-michael-hoffman/ri23905

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

'Orthodox Judaism Is a Religion of Lying and Deceit' - The Saker Interviews Michael Hoffman
https://russia-insider.com/en/orthodox-judaism-religion-lying-and-deceit-saker-interviews-michael-hoffman/ri23905

Would you say that some Christian Zionists were too supportive of Orthodox Judaism? In not wanting to stand against Israel as a nation, they collude with a faith that currently makings and rejects the Messiah and is a reinvention of "Jewishness" for a post-temple world?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@SweetPeas

You raise a great question - Why would Christians support Jews returning to their ancient homeland when some of them are clearly identified as the Synagogue of Satan* who will accept the Antichrist with open arms?

A really interesting question when it is applied to two distinct spiritual groups -

1 *Luciferian Zionists (Rothschilds etc)
2 Spiritually blind Jews (read end of Matthew 23)

This talk really brings out those issues well if you have any spare moments to watch it...

 

[Daciple]

or satan wants them dead, like Haman in the book of Esther in order to prove that God is incapable of keeping his promise to Abraham.

But God already fulfilled His Promise to Abraham, both Physically and Spiritually. What part of the promise God gave to Abraham has yet to be fulfilled?

Josh 21:43 And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

So if Scripture clearly records that God has 100% fulfilled what He promised to Abraham by way of the Land Mass/Physical as shown in Joshua and Spiritually thru Christ, then what exactly is there left to fulfill to Abraham?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

But God already fulfilled His Promise to Abraham, both Physically and Spiritually. What part of the promise God gave to Abraham has yet to be fulfilled?

Josh 21:43 And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

So if Scripture clearly records that God has 100% fulfilled what He promised to Abraham by way of the Land Mass/Physical as shown in Joshua and Spiritually thru Christ, then what exactly is there left to fulfill to Abraham?

From GotQuestions (which I agreed with ;-)
...

(3) Israel will repent and receive the forgiveness of God in the future (Zechariah 12:10–14). The Abrahamic Covenant finds its ultimate fulfillment in connection with the return of Messiah to rescue and bless His people Israel. It is through the nation Israel that God promised in Genesis 12:1–3 to bless the nations of the world. That ultimate blessing will issue in the forgiveness of sins and Messiah’s glorious kingdom reign on earth.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.gotquestions.org/amp/Abrahamic-covenant.html

 

[Daciple]

The Abrahamic Covenant finds its ultimate fulfillment in connection with the return of Messiah to rescue and bless His people Israel.

Are you and I not Israel according to Scripture?

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Have we been grafted into Israel or not?

Is there 2 bodies, 2 Spirits, 2 hopes, 2 Gods, 2 faiths, 2 baptisms?

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Does the Messiah not come to rescue you or I? I mean dont you believe that Jesus is going to Rapture you and thus rescue you from Tribulation?

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Do you not believe this applies to you? I am quite sure this is the same event, Jesus comes back the world freaks out and tries to run and hide, those who believe are Raptured the rest are left to face Judgement. Do you not get Rescued here?

t is through the nation Israel that God promised in Genesis 12:1–3 to bless the nations of the world.

Yet that ideology goes directly against what the New Testament states, as I have already shown all the nations have been blessed via Christ, or do you not agree with Paul that the Seed and the Promise was fulfilled thru Christ? How about we actually look at the verses you brought up via your article and see if they were fulfilled? I would like to hear YOUR actual opinion, your rebuttal from your own mouth not just copy and pasting, because I dont care about these other peoples view (even if you agree with them) I want to hear your views and your rebuttals from your own mind and mouth, if you would kindly indulge me, Id appreciate it...

Gen 12:1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
7 And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.

There are 3 distinct promises made here:

1) God will show Abraham a land and make of him a Great Nation

2) God will give Abrahams seed the land.

3) God will thru Abraham bless ALL the families of the earth.

If you go and look at all the other Scriptures concerning this promise, each of them fall into 1 of these 3 categories. So the question is, have these 3 promises been fulfilled at all?

1) Gen 46:3 And he said, I am God, the God of thy father: fear not to go down into Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation:

God says to Israel go into Egypt and there is where He will make them a Great Nation.

Deu 1:8 Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them.
9 And I spake unto you at that time, saying, I am not able to bear you myself alone:
10 The Lord your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.
11 (The Lord God of your fathers make you a thousand times so many more as ye are, and bless you, as he hath promised you!)

Deu 10:22 Thy fathers went down into Egypt with threescore and ten persons; and now the Lord thy God hath made thee as the stars of heaven for multitude.

Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

Looks like God fulfilled that promise literally as He said He would in Gen 46:3, Israel went into Egypt a few in number and came out a Great Nation. Do you disagree here that God fulfilled this promise of making Israel a Great Nation?

What about Spiritually, what does the Bible tell us about fulfillment of this promise in accordance to us?

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

So according to the Bible, Abraham is the father of us ALL, not just the Jews. That we ALL are Abrahams seed, and are heirs and in the same position of Isaac, brethren and children of the promise.

Do you believe this is correct? If so then has that aspect of the promise been fulfilled? If not then why is this not the fulfillment of the promise? And please explain how this is not the fulfillment if you could.

2) God will give Abrahams Seed the land.

Ex 6:8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the Lord.

Deu 30:5 And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

Ps 105:42 For he remembered his holy promise, and Abraham his servant.
43 And he brought forth his people with joy, and his chosen with gladness:
44 And gave them the lands of the heathen: and they inherited the labour of the people;

There are dozens of Scriptures that confirm this, but one that is exceedingly implicit which you have yet to speak on:

Josh 21:43 And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

So according to Scripture God has fulfilled the Promise of Physically bringing Israel into the Land He promised Abraham, or do you disagree with the Scriptures I have given, why or why not? If you disagree then what do these Scriptures that implicitly state God fulfilled that aspect of the Promise mean to you? What else needs to happen to fulfill that promise?

Also do you believe that the possession of Israel was dependent upon their obedience to the Word of the Lord? Why or why not? If it was then does their current state of not fully possessing that matter, they were disobedient therefore they lost possession, the possession isnt to be forever. I would offer here that anything one can relate to a "forever" possession of the land can only be fulfilled in the New Heaven and New Earth. This Earth is not going to be here forever correct? Therefore only the New Heaven and New Earth can truly qualify as a "forever" fulfillment of any type of Physical Possession. Or do you not agree with these things? Why or why not?

Spiritual fulfillment. Do you believe Abraham was truly looking to possession of a Physical Land as the actual fulfillment of the Promise? I dont, why not?

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

All of the Saints werent looking to a Phsyical fulfillment of the Promise, instead ALL OF THEM were looking to the heavenly, the City that God built, the one Jesus mentions He will be taking US to...

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Do you not accept the Scriptures that state that fulfillment of the Promise was found in Heaven? If not why not? What do these Scripture mean to you if not the fulfillment of the Promise?

3) The Seed fulfillment

The Seed fulfillment is 100% Spiritual and never had a Physical Israel in mind. What does Scripture tell us the Seed really is, was is the Physical Descendants of Abraham?

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Acts 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Are you an heir to the Promise Red? Does not Scripture explicitly say that God has FULFILLED the Promise of the Seed via Christ? Do you not believe this? If not why not? What else must be accomplished for this to be fulfilled in your theology? What make of you all of these passages that contend that each of the 3 aspects of the Promise given to Abraham have ALREADY been fulfilled?

That ultimate blessing will issue in the forgiveness of sins and Messiah’s glorious kingdom reign on earth.

Why is this in future tense? Do you not believe that Forgiveness of Sin has already been given and is accessible to anyone by Faith thru Grace regardless of heritage or ethnicity?

What Scriptures confirm that it is the Messiahs Physical Kingdom on this literal Earth that are the actual fulfillment as opposed to the previous verses that all show the Promise has already been fulfilled? I can also show Scriptures that Jesus Reign is already here right now, there is no need for Him to have His feet on this Physical Earth for His Reign to begin. Also isnt there still death and sin in the Pre Mil ideology you hold? How glorious is this Reign if Death and Sin are still here? According to Scripture the Glory comes when Death and Sin are fully abolished, when do you believe that will come?

I believe that is fulfilled in the New Heaven and New Earth, not in some Pre Mil Reign of Christ on this still Sin plagued and Death reigning Earth. In fact after truly contemplating that Reign it seems rather weak and not to Triumphant. The Reign of Christ I see as Glorious is the one in which there is no more Death or Sin, where I have a Glorified Body and all tears are wiped from my eyes. The Pre Mil idea of the Reign of Christ doesnt actually fit this true reign.

So I have fully covered your sources ideology, would you be willing to have a more in depth dialouge with me concerning what I have provided to rebut your source, with you own words thoughts and ideas? I would look forward to a deeper discussion with you concerning this as opposed to a sentence or 2, and a link to a website. Maybe it will help you to more clearly understand your own position and relate it to others, or maybe it will make you reconsider what you hold as truth or at least spend time answering why it is you believe as you do as opposed to accepting the Scriptures provided and what they tell us plainly.

Hopefully we can have a deeper discussion, if not its all good, hope someone learns something...

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Ok @Daciple -

I read through what you wrote a couple of times so I could get a clear sense of what you are saying. Certainly I agree that Christ is the fulfillment both for Jews and Gentiles. No disagreement there. Additionally, faith in Jesus is the only way for salvation for anyone.

Given this, why do Christians hold different views on this subject? Non-Christians might scratch their heads and think that we just like to argue, but the truth is that the nature of certain prophetic passages mean that they have been "sealed".

I listened to Pilgrims Progress as an audiobook a few times and John Bunyan had an astounding grasp of the here and now aspects of salvation and Christian living. Solid Reformed Protestant exegesis grew up in reaction to the spiritual slight of hand of the Popes who obfuscated and confused the scriptures. In seeking to prevent such deception creeping in again, certain "ways" of reading scripture have developed that you and I would readily recognise as "common sense" Bible interpretation. In doing so the Post-Reformation Church has preserved the clear message of the Gospel from attempts to complicate and confuse it.

OK - so far, so good...

Where the paths in the wood diverge is over how to read the layers of interpretation in prophetic passages. As the OT is rich in prophecies, many of which were fulfilled specifically, or have even received multiple fulfillments, it seems reasonable to me to conclude that the ways of interpretation that God gave to the Jews, of patterns, paradigms, types etc all come into play when it comes to gaining understanding of these issues, both past and future.

I found an appreciation of the Hebraic way of reading scripture very helpful in gaining understanding...

The Hebrew/Aramaic word PARDES is spelled in Hebrew and Aramaic without vowels as PRDS. PaRDeS refers to a park or garden, esp. the Garden of Eden. The word appears three times in the Aramaic New Testament (Lk. 23:43; 2 Cor. 12:4 & Rev. 2:7).

The word PRDS is also an acronym (called in Judaism "notarikon") for:

• (P)ashat....in Hebrew..."simple"
• (R)emez....in Hebrew..."hint"
• (D)rash....in Hebrew..."search"
• (S)od...In Hebrew..."hidden"

These are the four levels of understanding the scriptures. Each layer is deeper and more intense than the last, like the layers of an onion.

Certain doctrines and ideas can be accessed readily, (Pashat), e.g. John 3:16 whilst other mysteries in scripture are locked away in the deeper layers.

To me, it seems that the doctrine of the Return of the Lord, and how he will set up his Eternal Kingdom are very clear and expressed in unambiguous terms, but I think some of the specifics are hidden away in the extra layers. This understanding might apply to exactly how things might develop in Jerusalem in the future, issues on the Millennium, timing of the Rapture etc etc.

Since these are issues of deeper study, a reasonable amount of effort has to go into establishing the "constants" to coin a scientific analogy before useful talk of the variables can ensue.