Is there a difference between the way Jews and Christians understand "Zionism"?

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#1
So many times on this forum people argue with one another rather than try to understand things clearly.

I see this when Christians try to "bash" Muslims with "unusual" hadiths etc eliciting anger as these fall outside the breadth of ideas mainstream Islam embraces. It must be frustrating and as a bit of an outsider on such conversations, I don't think it moves understanding on in a meaningful way.

I think if you are going to disagree with someone, at least know what you are actually disagreeing with.

With that in mind I have gradually become aware that there is so more imprecise discussion theme on this forum than the notion of "Zionism". In many ways it has become an absolutely useless word as it is so emotive and brings out all the pre-rehearsed arguments. As there are plenty of threads with that kind of confrontational posting on this forum already, perhaps they can continue to rumble on where they are.

OK - to the question then:

Is there a meaningful difference between what Israelis (Orthodox Jews or secular) and Christians (Gentile or Messianic Jews) understand and expect when they find themselves in the 70th year after the re-establishment of the State of Israel in 1948.

This perspective has past, present and future components. It also runs the obvious risk of sounding callous to some who rightly point out that God loves all people including the sons of Ishmael, not forgetting the people of the Gaza Strip.

Related questions are which require some care and thought:

  • If God had a hand in the restoration of a Jewish homeland in Israel, does that convey his approval on all their actions and beliefs.
  • Do Orthodox Jews and Christians see the future of Israel working in the same way?
  • Do Christians who embrace "Replacement Theology" simply hate the Jews or is there something more subtle going on?

I'm sure other questions might crop up but hopefully this is a starting point and springboard.

P.s. You may disagree with both perspectives just a Christian might read a thread on "Sunni or Shia Islam", but I think its worth at least understanding what people do and do not believe before jumping in. So please...

No straw men*

strawman.png

*If you don't like being one,
don't treat others like one.
 





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#2
Is there a meaningful difference between what Israelis (Orthodox Jews or secular) and Christians (Gentile or Messianic Jews) understand and expect when they find themselves in the 70th year after the re-establishment of the State of Israel in 1948.
Of course there is, the Jews believe that their Messiah will come back, institute the Davidic Rule, rise Israel to in their belief rightful place of ruling over the whole world, institute the Old Testament Laws and extend this pretty much forever.

Christians think the Jews Messiah is Satan and eventually Jesus will come back, beat up Satan, then do exactly what the Jews say their Messiah is going to do, for 1000 yrs then Satan is going to fight against Jesus for a 2nd time and this time will actually be beaten and then comes the Judgement, New Heavens and New Earth.

What I believe is going to happen is the Antichrist is going to just what Carnal Jews and Carnal Christians both desire, form a Carnal Israel that is fully against what Christ stated He came to, then Christ will come back and destroy Him and everything Carnal and usher in the Perfect Spiritual Physical New Heaven and Earth bringing fulfillment to all Scriptures. I no longer believe in a Physical 1000 yr Rule of Jesus on the Physical Earth, it goes against everything He came to do. It makes God go back on everything He has done to usher in the Kingdom of Christ and makes Him disannul the New Covenant and Resurrect the Old Covenant, making a mess of Scriptures and causing God to basically be a liar...
 





cfowen

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#4
If Christians don't bash Islam, and Mormonism, and Catholicism, and Hinduism, and Buddhism, and any of the other fake, Satanic religions of the world, they're not doing ther job. Anyone who says they respect all religions is a blooming idiot and a terrible Christian. There are about 15 places in the Bible where God said He hated various groups. Follow God!!
 





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#5
If Christians don't bash Islam, and Mormonism, and Catholicism, and Hinduism, and Buddhism, and any of the other fake, Satanic religions of the world, they're not doing ther job. Anyone who says they respect all religions is a blooming idiot and a terrible Christian. There are about 15 places in the Bible where God said He hated various groups. Follow God!!
You're far more satanic than hindus.
Hindus are consistent theologically because they believe in the logos as God like you do, but they know the logos is 'all things' so they're panthiest. Yet Jesus himself taught Christians to have the single eye...ie to see ONE in all things. This is why Paul said "to the pure all things are pure"

The problem with panthiesm is, it kind of decentralises God...and the romans couldn't have you worshipping a monothiestic or a panthiestic God, they needed you to worship and serve the church in the guise of God, so they gave you a man-god theology exclusively without the main element.

The Word was made flesh.....but the Word always was/has been so if you believe that then you have to believe in more than Jesus.

For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen

this 'him' isnt referring to Jesus the man/flesh, it refers to the Logos/Son/Image of God.


Islam does not associate any partners with Allah and our religion balances the theological truth and the mystical truth ie we worship Allah as Trancendent and Immanent.
We're so satanic that God favoured us in Jerusalem over you...and Jesus said

“and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”


Furthermore in our theology we know what angels are, what jinns are, what demons are etc. We know for example that angels don't procreate. Joseph smith followed an 'angel' called moroni that told him it had been a sailor in a PAST LIFE!! ie the theology on angels was wrong..and tat is why mormonism failed.

also how can buddhism be satanic when those ppl had not encountered God's message? buddha rejected the polythiesm prevalent in his time.

Christians like you are basically dumb..yet you're the majority.


As for being a terrible christian, you're terrible christians because your belief is not in line with the WHOLE message in the NT, you hand pick parts that suit you, then ignore them and act like they don't exist or are not relevant.
 





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#6
God called Cyrus, a ZOROASTRIAN 'My annointed' (ie God's messiah).
Brilliant.

Jesus was visited by 3 magians.

the Logos is 100% hinduism.

Jesus said John the Baptist was the reincarnated Elijah.

Jesus believed in Hades, a greek belief, non-biblical.
 





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#7
don't forget the Logos incarnation, again incarnation another hindu idea.
Don't forget the greeks conquered parts of india, they incorporated hindu and persian ideas into their mythology..and the jews were hellenised.
 





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#8
If Christians don't bash Islam, and Mormonism, and Catholicism, and Hinduism, and Buddhism, and any of the other fake, Satanic religions of the world, they're not doing ther job. Anyone who says they respect all religions is a blooming idiot and a terrible Christian. There are about 15 places in the Bible where God said He hated various groups. Follow God!!
You really should know better than to post this sort if thing!

There is a world of difference between bashing and accurately critiquing, as well as between respect and agreement.

To illustrate, Paul didn't "bash" the Greeks at Mars Hill, he even used one of their gods and some of their poetry as an illustration. By doing so, he showed two things:-

1 - He cared about truth.

2 - He cared about them.
 





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#9
So many times on this forum people argue with one another rather than try to understand things clearly.

I see this when Christians try to "bash" Muslims with "unusual" hadiths etc eliciting anger as these fall outside the breadth of ideas mainstream Islam embraces. It must be frustrating and as a bit of an outsider on such conversations, I don't think it moves understanding on in a meaningful way.

I think if you are going to disagree with someone, at least know what you are actually disagreeing with.

With that in mind I have gradually become aware that there is so more imprecise discussion theme on this forum than the notion of "Zionism". In many ways it has become an absolutely useless word as it is so emotive and brings out all the pre-rehearsed arguments. As there are plenty of threads with that kind of confrontational posting on this forum already, perhaps they can continue to rumble on where they are.

OK - to the question then:

Is there a meaningful difference between what Israelis (Orthodox Jews or secular) and Christians (Gentile or Messianic Jews) understand and expect when they find themselves in the 70th year after the re-establishment of the State of Israel in 1948.

This perspective has past, present and future components. It also runs the obvious risk of sounding callous to some who rightly point out that God loves all people including the sons of Ishmael, not forgetting the people of the Gaza Strip.

Related questions are which require some care and thought:

  • If God had a hand in the restoration of a Jewish homeland in Israel, does that convey his approval on all their actions and beliefs.
  • Do Orthodox Jews and Christians see the future of Israel working in the same way?
  • Do Christians who embrace "Replacement Theology" simply hate the Jews or is there something more subtle going on?

I'm sure other questions might crop up but hopefully this is a starting point and springboard.

P.s. You may disagree with both perspectives just a Christian might read a thread on "Sunni or Shia Islam", but I think its worth at least understanding what people do and do not believe before jumping in. So please...

No straw men*

View attachment 8246

*If you don't like being one,
don't treat others like one.
Christians love Israel, but Israel really dislikes Christians.
 





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#10
God called Cyrus, a ZOROASTRIAN 'My annointed' (ie God's messiah).
Brilliant.

Jesus was visited by 3 magians.

the Logos is 100% hinduism.

Jesus said John the Baptist was the reincarnated Elijah.

Jesus believed in Hades, a greek belief, non-biblical.
The magicians-- as they were called then, the Magi. These men began following that star to see the Messiah, likely, long before His birth. No one was more respected for knowledge and wisdom, than the Magi-- they were learned elders, and if they said it, it was so.

"Where is the One who has been born King of the Jews? We saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him."

Its remarkable, really-- and it fulfills the scripture--

"... that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in the heavens and on earth and under the earth."
-
 





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#11
The magicians-- as they were called then, the Magi. These men began following that star to see the Messiah, likely, long before His birth. No one was more respected for knowledge and wisdom, than the Magi-- they were learned elders, and if they said it, it was so.
I heard -- I think from Missler -- that the tradition is that the magi were part of an order that had been trained by Daniel. They weren't wizards. They were students of the word of God. That's how they knew the prophecies. Moses prophesied in Numbers 24, there shall come a Star out of Jacob. When they saw the star, they knew what it meant, and they came to worship the Messiah whose coming Daniel had told them of hundreds of years before.
 





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#12
Is there a meaningful difference between what Israelis (Orthodox Jews or secular) and Christians (Gentile or Messianic Jews) understand and expect when they find themselves in the 70th year after the re-establishment of the State of Israel in 1948.
One thing I am certain of is that I don't know what anyone else who calls themselves a Zionist expects. I expect that the man we call the antichrist will bring peace and then deception and the Jews in Israel will flee one final time. Israel won't have the land God promised them until Jesus Christ sits on his throne in Jerusalem, and I don't expect that to happen for at least seven more years.

If God had a hand in the restoration of a Jewish homeland in Israel, does that convey his approval on all their actions and beliefs.
Certainly not, but he has gathered them as he said he would, in preparation for their hearts to turn toward him. Most people don't understand this, and think that Christian Zionism means total support of anything Israel does.

Do Orthodox Jews and Christians see the future of Israel working in the same way?
I don't think so.

Do Christians who embrace "Replacement Theology" simply hate the Jews or is there something more subtle going on?
Replacement theology is antisemitic in origin, but has become mainstream enough that those who adhere to it now aren't necessarily so. I imagine it's easier to hate Jews if you are convinced that God himself has rejected them as his people.
 





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#13
One thing I am certain of is that I don't know what anyone else who calls themselves a Zionist expects. I expect that the man we call the antichrist will bring peace and then deception and the Jews in Israel will flee one final time. Israel won't have the land God promised them until Jesus Christ sits on his throne in Jerusalem, and I don't expect that to happen for at least seven more years.



Certainly not, but he has gathered them as he said he would, in preparation for their hearts to turn toward him. Most people don't understand this, and think that Christian Zionism means total support of anything Israel does.



I don't think so.



Replacement theology is antisemitic in origin, but has become mainstream enough that those who adhere to it now aren't necessarily so. I imagine it's easier to hate Jews if you are convinced that God himself has rejected them as his people.
I'm glad you understood my OP! This is what I was trying to get at... ^^
 





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#16
The magicians-- as they were called then, the Magi. These men began following that star to see the Messiah, likely, long before His birth. No one was more respected for knowledge and wisdom, than the Magi-- they were learned elders, and if they said it, it was so.

"Where is the One who has been born King of the Jews? We saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him."

Its remarkable, really-- and it fulfills the scripture--

"... that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in the heavens and on earth and under the earth."
-
Puts me in mind of an old hymn whose words were always better than its tune...

1 At the name of Jesus every knee shall bow,
every tongue confess him King of glory now;
'tis the Father's pleasure we should call him Lord,
who from the beginning was the mighty Word.

2 At his voice creation sprang at once to sight:
all the angel faces, all the hosts of light,
thrones and dominations, stars upon their way,
all the heavenly orders in their great array.

3 Humbled for a season, to receive a name
from the lips of sinners, unto whom he came;
faithfully he bore it spotless to the last,
brought it back victorious when from death he passed;

4 bore it up triumphant, with its human light,
through all ranks of creatures, to the central height,
to the throne of Godhead, to the Father's breast,
filled it with the glory of that perfect rest.

5 In your hearts enthrone him; there let him subdue
all that is not holy, all that is not true.
Look to him, your Savior, in temptations' hour;
let his will enfold you in its light and power.

6 Christians, this Lord Jesus shall return again,
with his Father's glory o'er the earth to reign;
for all wreaths of empire meet upon his brow,
and our hearts confess him King of glory now.
 





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#17
The magicians-- as they were called then, the Magi. These men began following that star to see the Messiah, likely, long before His birth. No one was more respected for knowledge and wisdom, than the Magi-- they were learned elders, and if they said it, it was so.

"Where is the One who has been born King of the Jews? We saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him."

Its remarkable, really-- and it fulfills the scripture--

"... that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in the heavens and on earth and under the earth."
-

The point I was making was that there is a lot of truth in other religions/ traditions.
How many Muslims do you know who would praise Hinduism? Yet I can because there is a lot in Islam that opens up a line of enquiry that led me to study hindu concepts and it actually made me finally make sense of the metaphysics in Islam, Sufi Islam and Christianity and also beyond.
Hinduism was not really one religion though, the real religion is/was Dharma...and of you look at the meaning of dharma it is a universal concept.

I don't believe it to be a satanic religion but do feel humans corrupted it over time.

Even in the tao the Ching, an ancient text.. it refers to "ancient wisdom" which means long before there was an ancient civilisation or religion that was above and beyond even Taoist philosophy. Yet when you read the tao the Ching it is packed with new testament and messianic ideas...and it makes even more sense to me as a Muslim when I also have information in Qur'an and hadith which means there's more material to see a bigger picture and connect the dots.

Guys
The logos/son of God is eternal right? You believe this and I believe this too...and it is the origin/source of the entire universe(s)...all the dimensions.
Now contemplate on vast the universe is...even if you believe in Jesus...would you limit the logos only to Jesus? You can't even think of the logos on a global scale...and yet it is universal and multidimensional ..
God made man in His Image..and the son/logos is that image....meaning we are microcosms of the logos...so all the dimensions are within us.
So why would you assume other religions are satanic if people have searched within for answers on the metaphysical truth?
In advantage Vedanta they are actually against idolatry and are considered monists and even monotheists...but they are not very far from the abrahimic approach in fact I have read some texts where they praise praise Islam and consider it to be the purest form of dharma....
There are also Hindus who have remained Hindus and accepted Jesus and there are Christians who have remained Christian and embraced hinduism and all because they see what I also have seen in the metaphysical side.

For example after the eternal logos...causation takes place. In genesis this is when the spirit of God 'hovered over the Waters'. The waters = the primordial water ie the logos...the holy spirit proceeded from this water...and remember the holy spirit in revelation called itself the alpha and omega.

In hinduism these 2 themes come out as Brahma and shiva (creation and dissolution)..and deal with our spiritual descent and spiritual ascent too.
Brahma and shiva are not really 'gods' but aspects of God.
In hinduism the real God is Brahman...the essence...and Brahman is manifest with attributes through vishnu(or the logos) for the process of creation.
There is so much material on these themes and so often overlaps new testament, Quranic and Sufi themes.
 





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#18
Puts me in mind of an old hymn whose words were always better than its tune...

1 At the name of Jesus every knee shall bow,
every tongue confess him King of glory now;
'tis the Father's pleasure we should call him Lord,
who from the beginning was the mighty Word.

2 At his voice creation sprang at once to sight:
all the angel faces, all the hosts of light,
thrones and dominations, stars upon their way,
all the heavenly orders in their great array.

3 Humbled for a season, to receive a name
from the lips of sinners, unto whom he came;
faithfully he bore it spotless to the last,
brought it back victorious when from death he passed;

4 bore it up triumphant, with its human light,
through all ranks of creatures, to the central height,
to the throne of Godhead, to the Father's breast,
filled it with the glory of that perfect rest.

5 In your hearts enthrone him; there let him subdue
all that is not holy, all that is not true.
Look to him, your Savior, in temptations' hour;
let his will enfold you in its light and power.

6 Christians, this Lord Jesus shall return again,
with his Father's glory o'er the earth to reign;
for all wreaths of empire meet upon his brow,
and our hearts confess him King of glory now.
Sublime.

We didn't sing that at the Baptist church. But they fed us well, at the covered dish... what those women could do in one casserole, I would like to believe, brought the straggling souls to repentance, that the minister could not reach from the lectern. Good memories. :)
 





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#20
On March 15th, 1923, the Jewish World asserted: “Fundamentally -Judaism is Anti-Christian.” (Waters Flowing Eastward, p. 108)

"Wars are the Jews harvest, for with them we wipe out the Christians and get control of their gold. We have already killed 100 million of them, and the end is not yet." - Rabbi Reichorn, Chief Rabbi of France, in 1859

"The Christians are always singing about the blood. Let us give them enough of it! Let us cut their throats and drag them over the altar! And let them drown in their own blood! I dream of the day when the last priest is strangled on the guts of the last preacher."- Gus Hall, Jewish Chairman of the American Communist Party

There is a huge difference between the Jews understand Zionism and the way the Christians understand Zionism. Christians naively understand Zionism from their perspective of the Old Testament. They seem to act like seeing a Jew is seeing some historical relic and there is a great deal of idolizing going on in addition to this sort of a fear that prevents them from being objective on the issue. It is literally like they act like Jews are loved by God more than God loves Christians and so they seem to behave like God is going to punish them if they try to be more objective about the reality which is Jewish Zionism.

Therefore, Christian Zionism is predominately cowardly in presentation and quenches the Spirit given to us by the Holy Spirit to act in any way that would promote and cultivate justice without bias or favoritism.

Jewish Zionism is like this family secret that only another Jew can know. In some ways, it is not much different than family secrets that everyone has. Just think of a secret within your family that you know when you go to the bank and talk to other people who aren't in your family all the time. The only people you will talk about this secret, even though you may talk to hundreds of people, is someone else in your family. That is what Jewish Zionism is. It is the secret within your family that you don't share with your friends.

Jewish Zionism is a dark secret within the Jewish community that you can't share with your friends because they will look at you like you are a freak. It would be like trying to tell your friends that Ted Bundy was your great grandfather. That is a family secret you might want to keep to yourself and that is what Jewish Zionism is for Judaism.

The Christian community seems to want to test whether or not this is true and try to help undo the things that have protected them in the past and allowed them to progress to achieving some degree of religious freedom without persecution. Christian support of Jewish Zionism is like handing this privilege to the Devil. It is just a reality that if the temple had not been destroyed in 70AD and the authority of the Jewish community in countries where Christianity was predominate had been greater, there would be no Christianity left in the world today. They would have used their authority to obliterate it, and that is exactly what they are trying to do right now when they are presenting that they support Christian Zionism. They don't support Christian Zionism. They support trying to steal the favor that the Christian church has had throughout history over and above the favor shown to Judaism.

God has blessed the Christian church and we have many things to be grateful for, while Judaism has not grown or received vision in 2000 years. It is only in the modern world that we are beginning to see any authority in the form of Judaism and this can only confirm that they are the source of disobedience spoken of in the prophecy. The only way they will be able to accomplish this is if the Christian church hands over our authority to them because we are a primary reason they are held back right now. This is why I believe Christian Zionism describes the apostasy spoken of in scripture.

In addition to this, when we talk about things like a New World Order and people start saying Freemasons are evil or there will be a Muslim Antichrist. Both of those groups do not have the same influence and obligatory connection that the Jews in diaspora have had to control the world in the way that many people can see happening. There is not one other group so dispersed throughout the world with the same obligation to loyalty as the Jews. This is why I believe many Christians Zionists will be very disappointed when they see how much of a starring role the Jews play in the fulfillment of prophecy.