Is the Rise in Global Antisemitism Fulfilling Bible Prophecy?

A Freeman

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#62
Organised religion is not an organised Church. When we read about the early Church in the Bible they were an organised Church/community. There were no denominations. The early Church had unity because of their shared spiritual experience in Jesus. There was harmony among the believers even though they came from different backgrounds. It was all about Jesus and the Holy Spirit could be found among them.

In the Bible there is One Church (Ephesians 4:4, Ephesians 1:22-23) and Jesus is head of the Church (Colossians 1:18, Ephesians 5:22-23). In the one true Church there is only way, one truth and one life to be saved (John 14:6).



It means a lot in the Bible. I believe in the Word of God. As I've explained above there is a difference between organised religion and an organised Church. Organised religion has many bad aspects to it, but that doesn't mean you should tar all Christianity with the same brush. True Christians and their Church exist and will do till Jesus comes back. Christianity has everything to do with Christ but only as He intended it to be according to the Bible.



Then if Church means community what's wrong with that? There is a true Church/community of God all over the world. The Bible talks about in the New Testament all through to Revelation to the end of this world.

In order to understand Acts 7:48 you've got to read from verses 44-50. Actually its best to read from chapter 6:8 and all of chapter 7 where Stephen is accused of blasphemy and stoned to death for telling the Jews the truth. Stephen was told the Jews how they had resisted God and the Holy Spirit throughout their history until they killed Jesus on the cross. He told them God was bigger than the Temple which was was very important to them. Basically he was saying, that the Jews' idea of God was too small! They had limited God in their religion and minds but God was bigger than that. What Stephen said had nothing to do with Church buildings.

Acts 17:24, again in this verse Paul is reiterating what Stephen told the Jews. God does not live in one place only. God is much bigger than anything that we can build.



This is not true at all, not biblically. The Temple is also known as the sanctuary of God. Remember when the children of Israel were in the wilderness for forty years they had a sanctuary that they built according to God's instructions given to Moses? That was the portable Temple they travelled with in the wilderness. Then the Temple of Solomon (the first Temple) was built and it replaced the portable Temple (1 Kings 6:1-38, Chronicles 3:1, 2 Chronicles 2:12). Solomon's Temple was destroyed by king Nebuchadnezzar when Babylon took Judah captive (2 Chronicles 36:7,19, 2 Kings 24:10-13, 2 Kings 25:1-21).

Then the second Temple of Zerubbabel (second Temple) was built under a lot of difficulty and opposition (Ezra 5:1-2, Ezra 6:13-18, Haggai 1:1-15, 2:1-23). God commissioned the building of both Temples of Solomon and Zerubbabel. The second Temple is the Temple Jesus worshipped in and it was destroyed by the Roman army about 40 years after Jesus went back to heaven.

In the Bible Jesus (who is our example) went to synagogue to worship with others on the Sabbath. Mark 1:21, Mark 6:2, Luke 4:16, Luke 6:6. The apostles always attended Church with other believers too as we read about in the Bible. Acts 13:14, Acts 13:42, Acts 17:2, Acts 18:4, Acts 19:8.

Over and over again, we see Jesus in the synagogue on the Sabbath worshipping with others. We’re even told that it was His custom to be there on that day. The disciples also followed in the example of Jesus, as we can see clearly in the book of Acts.

The Bible tells us in Hebrews 10:25 that we should not forsake the assembly of ourselves together, that we need to assemble. God all through the Bible, Old and New Testament talks about convocations, gatherings together so that people will grow together.

Why would a person say he or she loves God but doesn’t wish to fellowship with His people? One of the reasons God wants us in Church is because it has people with similar beliefs. It helps bolster our faith and makes us accountable to one another. Even in Churches where there are some difficult people, it is the best environment to increase our capacity to learn to love one another.

If you’re looking for that “gotcha” verse that says specifically, in so many words, “Go to church on Sabbath or else,”—well, you won’t find it. However, God has given us the example of His Son, and many verses besides, to lead us to a clear conclusion in this matter.

Please don't quote the Quran to me. I don't believe it is the Word of God. Only the Bible is the Word of God.



The temple was destroyed because it no longer meant anything after Jesus' death. The temple in ancient Israel, also known as the sanctuary served as the greatest lesson on the plan of salvation ever given to God’s people. Its symbols and ceremonies lead us into a greater understanding of the mystery of salvation. For example In the earthly sanctuary temple people brought animals to be sacrificed for the atonement of sins. There was no more need of sacrificing animals because Jesus the lamb had died on the cross for our sins. The price for sin was paid for at the cross. That is why at the very moment Jesus died on the cross the curtain that separated the holy and most holy rooms got torn in two from top to bottom. Matthew 27:51, Mark 15:37-38. A new way of salvation had begun. The sacrificial services that had for so long pointed to Jesus, were no longer necessary. The old earthly type was now replaced by something much better. After Jesus went back to heaven, He went into the heavenly Temple and offered His own blood for the remission of sins. He was now the High Priest and mediator between man and God.

Paul wrote in Hebrews 9:12, "Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption."

You need to read the book of Hebrews that talks about the heavenly Temple to understand why the earthly Temple ceased to mean anything.



The Bible is clear that Christianity was started and endorsed by God. The Holy spirit worked with the apostles to preach the gospel to Jews and Gentiles and we read about this in the New Testament. Please stop lying about Christianity and what it entails. You are not disagreeing but with the direct Word of God. The Devil is the one who has brought division within Christianity with lies and false doctrines that are not of God. He wants to confuse and derail people from the road to heaven. Acts 11:26, "And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch. This is no work of the Devil!!



True to the Word of God as the early Church was in the Bible. Christianity is not a religion but there are many religions within Christianity. So true Christians exist and always have and worship God in truth. And Church is about Jesus Christ NOT Paul. Paul just relays God's Word as His apostle. As Christian we don't to pick and choose what parts the Bible we agree with and discard others. The whole Bible including Paul's writings are the Word of God that is why they are in the Bible.



Again you are misinterpreting the Bible. Jesus has never told anyone not to go to Church. That is NOT biblical. Jesus would be contradicting Himself in His Word and His actions. So let's find out what Jesus was really saying shall we?

In Matthew 6:5-8, Jesus was referring to prayer. He was saying some people prayed in public "standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men". Jesus was saying when we pray we should do it privately and not for show so people can see how pious we are. We shouldn't boast of our relationship with God. "But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly." We have a personal relationship with God and it shouldn't be for show.

Matthew 23:8-10. Matthew 23 is about Jesus condemning the Scribes and Pharisees. If we read from 6-10 we understand better what Jesus was saying. Verses 6-10, "They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ." Jesus charged the Pharisees with loving the best places at the feasts and the chief seats in the synagogue. They loved to be called rabbi, which recognised that they were teachers and scholars. Jesus reminded them that their Messiah, “Christ,” was their Master, and God was their Father. What He was saying was that the Pharisees and Scribes had forgotten the superiority of God and of their Messiah.

Yes its wrong what the Catholic Church do by calling their priests father and having the Pope as head of their Church because that is not biblical. In these positions the priests have the power to forgive sins and other powers which only belong to God. However the Bible tells us as I posted from Ephesians 4:11-12, "And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,"



That is the part of Christianity that is not biblical. The wailing wall was not part of the Temple and its pointless going and praying at it. The Temple was destroyed completely. Zionism is not biblical.



I disagree. Everything in the Bible is there because God decreed it to be. The Bible is not a human invention. It is God's Word and He controls everything that is in it. Just because it disagrees with your doctrine doesn't mean its wrong. Its you who is wrong I'm afraid. That is not the only part of the Bible that talks about leaders in the Church. Were they all added to the Bible? 1 Timothy 3:1-13, Titus 1:5-9, Hebrews 13:17, James 5:14, 1 Peter 5:1-4.

And the Book of Enoch is not in the Bible because it is not an inspired book. That is true of all the apocryphal books. A lot of what is written in them contradicts scripture.



Yes ministering is serving others just as Jesus served and humbled Himself even though He is God. That is what He taught the apostles and condemned the Pharisees and Scribes of. My point is in the Church of God there are people with positions such Pastors/ministers, elders and deacons. They are gifts from God (1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 3:7, 1 Timothy 4:14, 1 Peter 4:7-11) and what's more Paul endorsed the application of the organisational model of the early Christian Church in Jerusalem to other Churches in the world. He spelled out the qualifications for those serving as spiritual leaders (elders) as well as those attending to the other church affairs (deacons) in 1 Timothy 3:1-13.

What is with you and Satan's Churches? There is nothing wrong with leadership in the Church as we see in the Bible. Its false leadership that God has a problem with. James 3:1 says, "My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment." Leaders in the Church will be held to more accountability because of the high positions they hold.



Paul talks about false apostles in 2 Corinthians 11. He is saying these false apostles pretend to be apostles of Christ but are impostors. Just like Satan who disguises himself as an angel of light to lure people away from God. As Satan deceives, so do his representatives and their end won't be good. One of the worst sins in the Bible is that of ministers professing to be of Christ and yet they serve as agents of Satan. The Bible says they are known by their fruits.

This does not apply to genuine apostles of Christ. Don't twist the Word of God to fit in with your doctrine as you've with the verses you've posted here. You've taken them out of context and given them different meanings. That is not how we study the Bible. Read everything what the Bible says about Church and the body of Christ and you will see that you are wrong about Christianity, the Church and Church leadership.

In the Bible a Church is not about a building. Its where God's people gather together. Matthew 18:20, "For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

God bless.
Congratulations phipps. Virtually everything you just said in your reply is wrong.

A church IS the building where people go to supposedly worship God. It has other names in other religions, e.g. synagogue, mosque, temple, etc., but they all have one thing in common: they are BUILDINGS that are made with human hands. The verse you quoted clearly states: "...where two OR three are gathered in My name..."; it does NOT say any more than that.

Churches, etc. are a place of business; and organized religion is a very lucrative business.

Alternatively a community is a group of people. We all live in communities. It doesn't require any of us to build extra buildings just to meet once a week, so that a handful of thieves and robbers (John 10:8) can steal from us under false pretenses.

In an effort to keep this as simple as possible, please consider the following:-

There is ONE Master/Teacher (NOT tens or hundreds of thousands): Christ (Matt. 23:10).

There is ONE Mediator between God and men (NOT tens or hundreds of thousands): Christ (1 Tim. 2:5).

There is ONE High Priest (NOT tens or hundreds of thousands): Christ (Heb. 6:20, Heb. 7:11-12).

And there is ONE Good Shepherd (NOT tens or hundreds of thousands): Christ (John 10).

John 10:1-16
10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
10:2 But he that entereth in by the door (tells the Truth) is the Shepherd of the sheep.
10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
10:6
This parable spoke Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spoke unto them.
10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
10:8 ALL that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have Life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.
10:11 I am THE Good Shepherd: the Good Shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the Shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
10:14 I am the Good Shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known by MINE.
10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
10:16 And other sheep I have (the "House of Israel"), which are not of this fold (the "House of Judah"): them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] ONE Shepherd (Eze 37:22 and Genesis 49:10).


Isaiah 3:12 [As for] My people, children [are] their oppressors, and women rule over them. O My people, they which lead thee cause [thee] to err, and lead thee astray, to thy destruction.
 





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#63
We both know the answer. You can just say it.
I know the answer, If you knew it, you would tell it. And if you knew it you would have spoken it instead of being vague and pretending you know something you did not know, or you would have not asked the question. Paul was stoned by the religious. They plotted against Paul to kill Him for contending for the faith. He was thrown in prison and executed for preaching against those false teachers all through the Acts and Epistles, And many of the self righteous and self willed were jealous of Paul because He did not let them teach their own false religious doctrines.. What Bible are you reading....if your reading it at all.
 





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#64
Personally I don't believe in organised religion but all those that believe in Christ are Christians. The first Christians we read about are in the Bible in the book of Acts 11:26 which says, "And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch." Christians had to separate themselves from Jews who did not believe in Jesus as the Messiah.

There is a lot of false doctrine within Christianity but there are true Christians too. Those who believe on the Word of God, accept Jesus as their personal Saviour and do His will. In every age God has always had His true believers who worshipped and loved Him till death. They were persecuted and killed because they chose God over man made tradition. The Bible tells us in end time prophecy they will be persecuted again. They are always the minority but they are Christians. They are the true followers and disciples. Its not about religion though.

These true Christians have leaders just as the early Church did with the apostles as we read about especially in the book of Acts. There are true leaders, Pastors and elders in the true Church of God.

Ephesians 4:11-12, "And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,"

1 Timothy 3:2, "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;"
Amen.
 





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#65
I know the answer, If you knew it, you would tell it. And if you knew it you would have spoken it instead of being vague and pretending you know something you did not know, or you would have not asked the question. Paul was stoned by the religious. They plotted against Paul to kill Him for contending for the faith. He was thrown in prison and executed for preaching against those false teachers all through the Acts and Epistles, And many of the self righteous and self willed were jealous of Paul because He did not let them teach their own false religious doctrines.. What Bible are you reading....if your reading it at all.
It's not I who has to come to terms here; it's you. If you don't say the answer, then be considered a hypocrite and a coward.
 





Lisa

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#66
I know I'm not wrong and I'm not saying that arrogantly. Its just the truth.

To get a balanced view of what the Bible says about Israel in the New Testament/Covenant, you cannot dismiss entire parts that disagree with your doctrine. Jesus, Paul, Peter and other apostles and Bible writers make it clear that Israel in the New Covenant is global. It is not about physical ancestry. What is important is that people have faith and submit to Jesus. Whoever does that is part of the covenant people of God, irrespective of physical ancestry.
I don’t see you as arrogant here phipps..but you are wrong.

I only have a doctrine because of what I read in the Bible. Paul says in Romans 1:16 that Jesus came first for the Jew then the gentile. In Romans 11, Paul tells us that God hasn’t rejected His people and mentions he is a Jew from the tribe of Benjamin...so yes, he is talking to the people that God calls His chosen people. The people that are the descendants of Abraham, the Abraham that God made a covenant with to be Abraham’s God and the God of his descendants forever. Even though the Jews have strayed..God hasn’t. Even though they are unfaithful, God is not. 2Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, God is faithful He cannot deny Himself.

And it wouldn’t make any sense anyway...God has had numerous times in which to dump His chosen people all throughout their history of playing the harlot..but He didn’t. Why would He abandon them now..they are His chosen people, God doesn’t abandon His people.



You didn't understand Paul then. In Romans 11:17-24, Paul speaks of the olive tree that represents Israel. The branches (Jews) were broken off because of unbelief and the wild olive shoots (Gentiles) were grafted in to share in the nourishment of the tree.

The natural branches (literal Jews) can be grafted back into the tree if they accept the conditions. God is no respecter of nations or individuals. All who turn to Him will be accepted.

Romans 10:12, "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him."

Galatians 3:26, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."

John 15:5-7, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you."

The new Israel inherits God’s covenant promises. Those who have accepted Christ become the chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God (Compare 1 Peter 2:9-10 with Exodus 19:5-6).
Read the beginning of Romans 11
God has not rejected His people has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people who He foreknew.
Why does Paul bring all that up if he’s part of the new Israel? Who cares then? But, there is a care...God is not done with His chosen people.

Paul also tells us in Romans 11
Romans‬ ‭11:17, 19-21, 23‬ ‭
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
‭‭
Yes, we have become partakers with them...not instead of them. They are able to be grafted in again.

Salvation was not offered to Gentiles to make Jews jealous. The plan of salvation was made to save all mankind not just Jews. It was always in God's plans for Gentiles to hear the message and to be saved. God always planned that Gentiles join Israel.

What Paul was talking about in Romans 11:13-14 was that Gentile believers who had been grafted into Israel were called to provoke Israel to exercise faith in their Messiah for their salvation. Paul mentions his own efforts to that effect, stating, “if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.” Meaning all Jews will be saved in the same manner as all Gentiles: by faith in the crucified and risen Lord as Messiah.

Paul did not say “and then all Israel will be saved,” as if to suggest a sequence of different dispensations. Remember that there is only one olive tree in Paul’s metaphor, meaning one Saviour, one people of God, and one way of salvation for all!

Of course Israel was not cast away. Israel still exists just not literally but spiritually according to the Word of God. In Galatians 6:16 Paul calls Christians “the Israel of God”. The Israel of the New Covenant has both Jews and Gentiles (they were grafted in). Its about the heart not ancestry. Read 2 Corinthians 3.
Yes, salvation was offered to the Jews to make them jealous...
Romans‬ ‭11:11‬ ‭
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
‭‭It there in black and white...The Jews didn’t stumble and fell...that’s another hint.

Paul in Romans 11 is most definitely talking about Israel not being broken off completely but that they will indeed be grafted back in..its plain as day when you read the whole chapter.

[QUOTE="phipps, post: 249593, member: 1733"
What do you mean by the fullness coming in? Where in the Bible does it talk about the fullness of the Gentiles coming in? Please show me.

As far as I know, if by the time probation closes people have not accepted Christ that will be it for them. Whatever heritage or nation they come from. Jews are not going to get preferential treatment from God. No one is.

Galatians 3:29, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

What you're saying contradicts the Bible.
[/QUOTE]
Romans‬ ‭11:25‬ ‭
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
‭‭What I’m saying doesn’t contradict the Bible or Romans chapter 11..in fact I’m dead on..like I said earlier...Romans chapter 11 is only talking about how the Jews are still in this with God and that we AREN’T the new Israel.


I’m gonna make this a two part...
 





Lisa

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#67
This is something I posted before but I am going to repost it.

All Israel Saved?
Since we've gone this far, we may as well go all the way! Only Jews will be saved. Furthermore, all Jews will be saved! Now after you pick yourself up off the floor, allow us to explain these bold statements.

We all know that we are saved under the new covenant, right? Notice the wording of the new covenant: "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah." Jeremiah 31:31, emphasis added.

And in the book of Hebrews, Paul expands on this concept: "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. ... For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." Hebrews 8:8, 10-12, emphasis added.

The new covenant is made "with the house of Israel"! God never makes a salvation covenant with Gentiles. In fact, nowhere in Scripture do you find any saving covenant made with anyone but Israelites! So if you want to be saved, you must be born again, as a spiritual Jew. This is not to say that all Christians must now be circumcised and sacrifice lambs, but we must have the spiritual equivalent of these things-Jesus, the Lamb of God, and circumcision of the heart.

God does not have one method of salvation for Jews and a different brand for non-Jews. Everyone is saved the same way under the same program. By grace through faith. Paul used the analogy of an olive tree to explain that all Gentiles who are saved are grafted into the stock of Israel. "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root [supports] thee." Romans 11:17, 18.

The Christian religion is based on a Jewish manual called the Bible. (In light of this fact, it is extremely difficult to understand how any real Christian could be anti-Semitic.) Christianity is not a new religion, but rather the completion of the Jewish faith.

With this truth in mind, we can now better understand what Paul meant when he said, "And so all Israel shall be saved." Romans 11:26. Some have taken this verse to mean that God will ultimately save all literal Jews. If this were true, it would contradict every principle of God's dealings with humans throughout history and Scripture. God is not a racist. In Jesus' eyes, "There is neither Jew nor Greek." Galatians 3:28.

We are saved based on choices we make regarding God's provision, not on national status or physical citizenship. But if when Paul says that "all Israel will be saved" he is speaking of spiritual Israel, and if we understand that we become a "true Jew" only by a choice, then it all makes sense.



The temple Daniel was talking about was the temple that was built after the first desolation when Babylon took Israel captive due to their abominations. That temple was destroyed by the Romans after Jesus' ascension to heaven as I told you.

After Jesus' death the earthly temple ceased to mean anything. When Jesus died on the cross the veil, or curtain, that separated the holy and most holy rooms of the temple/sanctuary was torn (Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45). His death symbolized the end of the need for the exclusive Levitical priesthood to mediate between man and God. Now Jesus would mediate between man and God. 1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus," That also meant that the sacrifices of animals as the means for sins to be forgiven was abolished because Jesus the lamb had died on the cross once and for all to save us all. That is what Daniel meant by sacrifices abolished. Does it make sense to you that Christians should back the building of another temple where sacrifices will be offered after Jesus the lamb died on the cross for our sins? Wouldn't that be denying Jesus' sacrifice for us?

The next temple we read about is the one in heaven. There is a temple is heaven as Paul writes about in the book of Hebrews. This temple is the real deal on which the earthly one was modelled on.

"Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man…Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount" (Hebrews 8:1-2, 5).

In the heavenly temple Jesus is the High Priest and our mediator. Meaning Jesus is pleading His blood in behalf of repentant sinners. "Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." Hebrews 7:25.

"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us" (Hebrews 9:24).

I suggest you go to my forum Heavenly Temple/Sanctuary and read about it and the book of Hebrews too. This is a very important subject in understanding the the work Jesus does in the heavenly temple/sanctuary and its just as important as His death on the cross for us.

The Zionist doctrine is not biblical. A newly built temple cannot, in any sense of the word, be called "the temple of God." In fact, the erection of such a temple and the reintroduction of sacrificial rites would be blasphemy against the completed work and present priestly ministry of Christ in the heavenly temple/sanctuary.

In the book of Revelation we read about Jesus in the Temple and it is from the Temple that Jesus will come to save His people when He returns the second time.



As I told you Jesus was telling the apostles about the destruction of Jerusalem and when to flee. In fact Jesus predicted the destruction of the Temple. Mark 13:2, "And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.” The destruction of Jerusalem and of the temple is also written of historically.

Now what Jesus said can also be applied to end time prophecy but as I've told you and its supported by scripture, God's true Church (Israel) will be persecuted. This Israel will be a people of all nations who as Paul puts it, "if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." The New Covenant does not separate Jews and Gentiles.

The Jews are no longer a chosen people. Daniel prophesied it in Daniel 9:24, "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

The Jews did not anoint the most Holy and they were cut off. Jesus Himself told them in Matthew 21:43-44 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder." and Matthew 23:37–39, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’

Jews have to come to Christ individually like the Gentiles. They are not all going to wake up one day and recognise Jesus as the Messiah. Some will and some won't just like the rest of the world.

The people who are going to remind the world there is a God are true Christians (Israel) and as I've repeatedly said, it doesn't matter what race or nation they are from. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."

God chose Israel to bless the world and to be His witnesses and missionaries to the world. When Israel rejected Jesus, the church functionally continued where Israel left off. It became the new avenue through which God was to work to win the world. The mission continued even though the avenue changed. There was a new Israel, a more global Israel than that of the Old Covenant. This fulfilled Jesus’ statement that true Israel would be a people from all races and nations.

Matthew 8:10-12, "When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Luke13:28-29, "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God."

The church is the fulfilment and continuation of Israel through which God’s eternal purpose will be realised.

Ephesians 3:10-11, "to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,"


This is according to the Bible.
Part 2...
Yep...Salvation was first to the Jew..why Jesus is talking to the Jews..

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Then Paul talks about being the preacher to the gentiles and Peter to the Jews...Why would the team need to split up to preach to two separate peoples if its a spiritual Israel? Answer..its is not a spiritual Israel, but an actual Israel.

Galatians‬ ‭2:7-9‬ ‭
But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised (for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles), and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
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When the Bible talks about all the Jews will be saved..Paul also talks about God having a remnant in Romans 11
Romans‬ ‭11:4-5‬ ‭
But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.
‭‭and we also see that there is a repenting going on...
Zechariah 12:10
I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
The temple Daniel was talking about was the temple that was built after the first desolation when Babylon took Israel captive due to their abominations. That temple was destroyed by the Romans after Jesus' ascension to heaven as I told you.

After Jesus' death the earthly temple ceased to mean anything. When Jesus died on the cross the veil, or curtain, that separated the holy and most holy rooms of the temple/sanctuary was torn (Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45). His death symbolized the end of the need for the exclusive Levitical priesthood to mediate between man and God. Now Jesus would mediate between man and God. 1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus," That also meant that the sacrifices of animals as the means for sins to be forgiven was abolished because Jesus the lamb had died on the cross once and for all to save us all. That is what Daniel meant by sacrifices abolished. Does it make sense to you that Christians should back the building of another temple where sacrifices will be offered after Jesus the lamb died on the cross for our sins? Wouldn't that be denying Jesus' sacrifice for us?

The next temple we read about is the one in heaven. There is a temple is heaven as Paul writes about in the book of Hebrews. This temple is the real deal on which the earthly one was modelled on.

"Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man…Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount" (Hebrews 8:1-2, 5).

In the heavenly temple Jesus is the High Priest and our mediator. Meaning Jesus is pleading His blood in behalf of repentant sinners. "Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." Hebrews 7:25.

"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us" (Hebrews 9:24).

I suggest you go to my forum Heavenly Temple/Sanctuary and read about it and the book of Hebrews too. This is a very important subject in understanding the the work Jesus does in the heavenly temple/sanctuary and its just as important as His death on the cross for us.

The Zionist doctrine is not biblical. A newly built temple cannot, in any sense of the word, be called "the temple of God." In fact, the erection of such a temple and the reintroduction of sacrificial rites would be blasphemy against the completed work and present priestly ministry of Christ in the heavenly temple/sanctuary.

In the book of Revelation we read about Jesus in the Temple and it is from the Temple that Jesus will come to save His people when He returns the second time.



As I told you Jesus was telling the apostles about the destruction of Jerusalem and when to flee. In fact Jesus predicted the destruction of the Temple. Mark 13:2, "And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.” The destruction of Jerusalem and of the temple is also written of historically.

Now what Jesus said can also be applied to end time prophecy but as I've told you and its supported by scripture, God's true Church (Israel) will be persecuted. This Israel will be a people of all nations who as Paul puts it, "if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." The New Covenant does not separate Jews and Gentiles.

The Jews are no longer a chosen people. Daniel prophesied it in Daniel 9:24, "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

The Jews did not anoint the most Holy and they were cut off. Jesus Himself told them in Matthew 21:43-44 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder." and Matthew 23:37–39, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’

Jews have to come to Christ individually like the Gentiles. They are not all going to wake up one day and recognise Jesus as the Messiah. Some will and some won't just like the rest of the world.

The people who are going to remind the world there is a God are true Christians (Israel) and as I've repeatedly said, it doesn't matter what race or nation they are from. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."
There have been 2 temples and there will be a third built. Sacrifices will be reinstated there. How do we know?
Revelation‬ ‭11:1-2‬ ‭
Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.​
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Then the scripture goes on to talk about the 2 witnesses..that will be witnesses in the tribulation...there is a temple that will be built and it will involve sacrifices to God..which is because of the Jews unbelief..they believe that building a new temple and reinstating sacrifices is a way back to God. It will take a treaty to get this done..since I think the new temple will be on the Temple Mount...where they have a mosque built and that is why they need to leave out the outer court in Revelation 11:2.

Daniel‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭
And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.​
So, we see, that there is a treaty...sacrifices are being made and then an end to them in the middle of the treaty..then the abomination of desolation...

Matthew‬ ‭24:15‬ ‭
Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),”
‭‭
‭‭It all makes perfect sense...

Now what Jesus said can also be applied to end time prophecy but as I've told you and its supported by scripture, God's true Church (Israel) will be persecuted. This Israel will be a people of all nations who as Paul puts it, "if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." The New Covenant does not separate Jews and Gentiles.

The Jews are no longer a chosen people. Daniel prophesied it in Daniel 9:24, "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

The Jews did not anoint the most Holy and they were cut off. Jesus Himself told them in Matthew 21:43-44 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder." and Matthew 23:37–39, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’

Jews have to come to Christ individually like the Gentiles. They are not all going to wake up one day and recognise Jesus as the Messiah. Some will and some won't just like the rest of the world.

The people who are going to remind the world there is a God are true Christians (Israel) and as I've repeatedly said, it doesn't matter what race or nation they are from. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."

God chose Israel to bless the world and to be His witnesses and missionaries to the world. When Israel rejected Jesus, the church functionally continued where Israel left off. It became the new avenue through which God was to work to win the world. The mission continued even though the avenue changed. There was a new Israel, a more global Israel than that of the Old Covenant. This fulfilled Jesus’ statement that true Israel would be a people from all races and nations.

Matthew 8:10-12, "When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Luke13:28-29, "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God."

The church is the fulfilment and continuation of Israel through which God’s eternal purpose will be realised.

Ephesians 3:10-11, "to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,"


This is according to the Bible.
Yes the church will also be persecuted in the end times...

The Jews are always the chosen people!!!
Romans‬ ‭11:28-32‬ ‭
From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.​
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God’s covenant is unbreakable...
Genesis‬ ‭17:7-8‬ ‭
I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.​
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Sure..there is a new covenant with God for the gentiles..who are to be grafted in to the olive tree...an olive tree that the Jews will be regrafted into.
Romans‬ ‭11:23-24‬ ‭
And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

You don’t need to read any other book to figure out what God is doing here...Romans 11 tells us the whole thing. Yes, there is Jew and Gentile still in God’s thinking. The gentiles are here for a time being saved until their fullness comes in and then God turns to look at His chosen people again..who He has not forsaken. That is the gist of Romans 11. And I like how Paul tells us to not get conceited about how we are saved and the Jews aren’t right now..if it happened to them..it could happen to us!
Romans‬ ‭11:17-22‬ ‭
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
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#68
So to whom, then, in your opinion, is Jesus referring when He repeatedly refers not once but twice (and counting) to those who claim to be Jews but are not, and why does it seem to be such a taboo subject to readers and quoters of the Bible to identify them? It's not just your seemingly favorite monsters, Nazis and Muslims, who are wondering. In fact, I have had to subject myself to a serious self-assessment to see if I have any even unconscious residual antisemitism in my bones and if that antisemitism wasn't instilled into me by my Sunday School teachers, when I was a still-vulnerable and susceptible child when they were instilling what can, I think rightly, be called antisemitic portions of the New Testament into my spiritually sensitive brain as a child.
Of course, I cannot, and would not try to claim to have known your Sunday School teachers, but it occurred to me, that those passages by definition cannot be legitimately called antisemitic; because as they say, they refer to people who are not Semites, but are falsely claiming to be.
 





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#69
Of course, I cannot, and would not try to claim to have known your Sunday School teachers, but it occurred to me, that those passages by definition cannot be legitimately called antisemitic; because as they say, they refer to people who are not Semites, but are falsely claiming to be.
Well, they were just sweet, good-natured American women, certainly not goose-stepping to Nazi martial music, but the question to my mind, and it's not on my mind alone, is whether, and to what extent, entire portions of the New Testament are antisemitic and induce even barely conscious "Jew hatred." Unlike most readers here, and it's not because I am interested in some new comity or ecumene to help Jewish-Christian relations for some pope-approved NWO, is if the scriptures are making me even residually, vestigially antisemitic. If so, I am prepared to toss the scriptures out the window, because I acknowledge the injustices done against Jews, over the centuries, because of them. I doubt many Christian Zionistas are willing to do the same, despite their sending daily Valentine Cards to Israel and their seemingly half-hearted assurances of love and support for that fire-ant of a country.

Thanks for responding. At least you JAH's truth (thanks @elsbet) blokes know the difference between the Biblical House of Israel and House of Judah. For that reason alone, and because you've obviously studied the Book, I am glad that you are here and are participating. You guys know your shit, if you'll excuse the vulgarity, though it's an Americanism that means you know your subject, and know it well, even if I stop far short of acknowledging your guru as the incarnation of Christ himself.
 





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#71
The well known quote in conspiratorial circles regarding the Jews does appear to be the one from which much conjecture stems:-


Revelation 3:9 King James Version (KJV)

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

To me, there are a range of possible meanings.

1: All of national Israel will at some point be “fake” Jews, perhaps pretending Jewish identity for some advantage (I don’t buy this* but I’m just putting it out there)

2: There will be a subset of Jews who will arise at a particular time, notable by their dedication to Satan. Inasmuch as any particular Jew buys into Satanism, they will fall within this subset. The proverbial “Synagogue of Satan” label would therefore be an inappropriate description for all modern Israel (unless they all became Satanists, I guess ;-)

*The reason why I cannot possibly buy the “fake Jew advantage” line is that Jewishness itself was a death sentence for many during WW2. To attempt to create a counter-narrative is to fly in the face of history.
 





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#72
The well known quote in conspiratorial circles ....
It was also quite well known in my non-conspiratorial church, because they read and quoted the Bible. It's here, though Muslims and others are bashed with impunity daily, that one has to quote it on tippy-toes, and then soto voce, so as not to offend those to whom Jesus himself, whoever they may be, was referring. God save the Queen, and with her Lord Rothschild and the City of London :).
 





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#73
@Lisa

I don’t see you as arrogant here phipps..but you are wrong.
Thanks for not thinking I'm arrogant but not I'm not wrong. I know I'm not. You are but not intentionally.

I only have a doctrine because of what I read in the Bible. Paul says in Romans 1:16 that Jesus came first for the Jew then the gentile. In Romans 11, Paul tells us that God hasn’t rejected His people and mentions he is a Jew from the tribe of Benjamin...so yes, he is talking to the people that God calls His chosen people. The people that are the descendants of Abraham, the Abraham that God made a covenant with to be Abraham’s God and the God of his descendants forever. Even though the Jews have strayed..God hasn’t. Even though they are unfaithful, God is not. 2Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, God is faithful He cannot deny Himself.

And it wouldn’t make any sense anyway...God has had numerous times in which to dump His chosen people all throughout their history of playing the harlot..but He didn’t. Why would He abandon them now..they are His chosen people, God doesn’t abandon His people.
Yes and Paul says that because the Jews were God's chosen people first, but it was always God's plan for the whole world to be saved and to join Israel. God was patient with Israel for thousands of years but they chose to believe their leaders instead of Jesus Christ.

When God blessed the Jews, He blessed them as a nation. Why? Because He had promised Abraham that his descendants would become a great nation and occupy the land of Canaan (Genesis 12:3, 17:4, 22:17). Because of Abraham's great faith, his descendants were blessed. This promise was repeated to Abraham’s son Isaac, and to his grandson Jacob.

Why did God bless Israel as a nation? "That Your way may be known on earth,Your salvation among all nations." Psalms 67:2. God chose the Israelites for a purpose and the purpose was to spread God's Word around the world to all nations. God told them, "The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples;" Deuteronomy 7:7.

The Old Testament is full of God's promises to His people Israel. But these were not one‐sided vows. They were two-sided covenants that required absolute compliance from both parties. After God helped the Israelites escape from Egypt, He entered into a covenant with them (Exodus 19:1-8). He said that Israel was to become a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. They were to spread God's light to all people on Earth (Isaiah 60:1-3). But this covenant was conditional to obedience.

There are many blessings in the Old Testament that were never fulfilled because of Israel's disobedience. Deuteronomy 28:1‐14 contains some of the most wonderful blessings that God gave to Israel but they were conditional to obedience. They were never fulfilled.

Over time Israel became more corrupted by sin and unfortunately did not keep God's commands, and became even more corrupt than the pagan nations around them (2 Kings 17:6-23). Disobedience stopped Israel from receiving many promised blessings. In fact, all of Israel's tribes (10 tribes) except Judah and Benjamin were carried away into captivity by the king of Assyria and they disappear from history altogether. A century and a half later, even Judah was plucked from the Promised Land and scattered in the Babylonian Empire. I have a forum on this subject. All through the Old Testament/Covenant, God's people would disobey Him and then He would punish them and for a while they would come to Him, then they would disobey Him again and they would go round in circles like that with God. That wasn't going to go on forever. So God gave Daniel the 70 week prophecy (Daniel 9:24-27) for literal Jews telling them that God had cut off a time for them and in that time they were to change but if they did not change that would be it for Israel as a nation.

The 70 weeks (490 years) finally came to an end with the stoning of Stephen in AD 34. After that the Christian Church assumed its role as the custodians of the gospel.

Did you know that the Jews put a Rabbinic curse in the Talmud that forbids people from reading Daniel 9:24-27? The curse says, "May the bones of the hands and the bones of the fingers decay and decompose, of him who turns the pages of the book of Daniel, to find out the time of Daniel 9:24-27, and may his memory rot from off the face of the earth forever." Why? What were they trying to hide? They understood that the 70-week prophecy (490 literal years), proves that Jesus was the Messiah. It is the greatest proof there is to Jews of Jesus' Messiahship. They can predict the time of the Messiah's anointing, putting the issue beyond doubt. Instead of repenting and believing the Messiah, they put a curse on His Word.

Lets be clear, God does not abandon anyone who comes to Him whether they are Jews or Gentiles. God never abandoned any Jews who accepted Him as Messiah and followed His precepts. The first Christians we read about in the Bible are Jews. However they are not going to be saved as a nation. They will be saved individually not together.

Read the beginning of Romans 11
God has not rejected His people has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people who He foreknew.
Why does Paul bring all that up if he’s part of the new Israel? Who cares then? But, there is a care...God is not done with His chosen people.

Paul also tells us in Romans 11
Romans‬ ‭11:17, 19-21, 23‬ ‭
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
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Yes, we have become partakers with them...not instead of them. They are able to be grafted in again.
I've read Romans 11 a lot because this is one of the chapters that Zionists keep quoting. But you are missing the point of what Romans 11 and the whole New Testament is talking about on this subject. I'll try and explain this from another angle although I'm not good at explaining myself in words. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

You should remember that the early converts to Christianity were all Jews. For example, the group that was converted on the Day of Pentecost. So Paul when talking about the olive tree (Israel) says that some of those branches have been broken off (the unbelieving Jews). That means believing Jews were not broken off. Then he says that into this tree the believing Gentiles have been grafted. The olive tree represents Israel so the Gentiles are are drawing their sap and vitality from believing Jews who were not broken off. So believing Gentiles and Jews are now part of Israel. There is no distinction between them.

Paul then says that the broken off branches can be grafted back into Israel as long as they believe. The believing Gentiles are still in there. Jews won't and don't get grafted back in Israel altogether as a nation, they get grafted back in individually.

Yes, salvation was offered to the Jews to make them jealous...
Romans‬ ‭11:11‬ ‭
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
‭‭It there in black and white...The Jews didn’t stumble and fell...that’s another hint.

Paul in Romans 11 is most definitely talking about Israel not being broken off completely but that they will indeed be grafted back in..its plain as day when you read the whole chapter.
What Paul says in Romans 11:11 is not as simple as you make it out to be. After Israel rejected Christ, Jesus told the Jews that their kingdom was being taken from them (Matthew 21:43). That means the gospel was taken from them and given to the Gentiles. As I told you above God chose Israel as nation to spread the gospel around the world. It was always in His plan that through Israel all nations would learn of Him and worship and obey Him. Sadly that wasn't to be because of Israel's sins which included disobedience, arrogance, pride and exclusion of other nations.

In Romans 10:19 Paul says, "But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says: “I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation, I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.” Paul was saying that the he hoped the Jews would see the close relationship and blessings the Gentiles had with Christ and that would provoke them to return to Him through faith. He hoped this would make Jews consider their own salvation.

Romans‬ ‭11:25‬ ‭
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
‭‭What I’m saying doesn’t contradict the Bible or Romans chapter 11..in fact I’m dead on..like I said earlier...Romans chapter 11 is only talking about how the Jews are still in this with God and that we AREN’T the new Israel.
You've misinterpreted scripture again. Romans 11:25 does not cancel out Galatians 3:29 or all the other scripture in the New Testament that has made it clear that all who come to Christ are Abraham's seed. Which means they are Israel. The Bible does not contradict itself, if it seems like it is we have got to see what it says about the subject in other parts of the Bible.

The whole point of Romans 11 is Paul reaching out to Jews. Paul is answering the question he asked in verse 1. “Hath God cast away his people?” His answer, of course, is no, and his explanation is 1, that the blindness is only “in part,” and 2, that it is only temporary, “until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.”

The fullness of the Gentiles means the fulfilment of the gospel being preached to all the world as was always God's intention. All the world will hear the gospel. In fact the gospel has been preached to all the world. The coming of Jesus is near. At this point, then, many Jews start coming to Jesus.

However Zionism teaches that all Jews are going to somehow miraculously accept Christ as the Messiah. Why would God do that for the Jews and not the whole world? Why would He favour Jews over all His people around the world? Its not biblical at all.

In Romans 11:26 it says “all Israel shall be saved .” This must not be understood to mean that every Jew will by some divine order have salvation in the end time. Nowhere do the Scriptures preach universalism for the entire human race or for a particular segment or nation of people. Paul was hoping to save some of them. "If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them." (Romans 11:14). Some accepted the Messiah, and some rejected Him, as it is with all people groups around the entire world since the creation of this world. Yes, many Jews will be converted but many won't either. They will do it individually too and not as a nation.

In conclusion, you've completely misunderstood Romans 11. The Gentiles who are grafted in to Israel are not going to leave unless they are disobedient like the Jews who were broken off for disbelief. As Paul says in Galatians 3:7-9, "those who have faith are children of Abraham." We see through Scripture that God foresaw and would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
 





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#74
@Lisa

Yep...Salvation was first to the Jew..why Jesus is talking to the Jews..
Romans 1:16​

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.​


Then Paul talks about being the preacher to the gentiles and Peter to the Jews...Why would the team need to split up to preach to two separate peoples if its a spiritual Israel? Answer..its is not a spiritual Israel, but an actual Israel.
Both apostles preached to both Gentiles and Jews. In Romans 11 Paul is preaching to the Jews and he does so in other parts of the New Testament.

Have you forgotten about Cornelius the Centurion who was a God fearing man but a Gentile in the book of Acts chapter 10? An angel appeared to Cornelius in a dream and told him to send his men to Joppa for Peter. Cornelius did exactly as the angel instructed. Then Peter got a vision from God that told him to eat unclean food. Some Christians think this vision is God saying its okay to unclean foods but the vision wasn't about food at all. Peter had not understood that God intended for Gentiles to be preached to the gospel and to join Israel. God told him in Acts 10:15, "What God has cleansed you must not call common.”

Cornelius' men found Peter and invited him to go to his house where the two meet and share about their dream and vision. Then Peter delivers the Good News to the Gentiles: Peter says in verse 28, "You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean." He continues in verses 34-35, "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him." He continued to preach the gospel to the Gentiles but while he was still preaching, verses 44-48, "the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days. If you read Acts 11 you will see how the apostles and brethren reacted when they found out Peter had eaten and spent time with uncircumcised men.

Paul preached to more Gentiles than Peter but they both preached to Jews and Gentiles.

Galatians‬ ‭2:7-9‬ ‭
But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised (for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles), and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.​

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When the Bible talks about all the Jews will be saved..Paul also talks about God having a remnant in Romans 11
Romans‬ ‭11:4-5‬ ‭​

But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.​

‭‭and we also see that there is a repenting going on...

Zechariah 12:10​

I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.​
Let me post Romans 11:1-5 to understand what Paul is saying here in context.

"I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

What Paul is saying clearly is that even though Israel had rejected Christ, even though they'd killed the prophets and torn down His altars, God always had a people who believed in Him. Who did not abandoned Him. So even in Paul's day at that present time there was a remnant of Jews who believed in Christ.

All through out the ages from creation till the end God always has a remnant people. Despite Israel's disobedience there were always people who had faith in God. And it will be the same till Jesus returns. Satan always did and will make life difficult for the remnant but they always persevere. The dark ages is an example of what God's people went through but they did not compromise with their faith till death. The remnant are those who "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

There have been 2 temples and there will be a third built. Sacrifices will be reinstated there. How do we know?
Revelation‬ ‭11:1-2‬ ‭​

Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.​
‭‭
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Biblically there is no third temple built on earth. I explained to you about a temple in heaven in which Jesus is the High Priest as Paul tells us in the book of Hebrews.

Hebrews 4:14-16, "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."

Hebrews 8:1-2, 5, "Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man. who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”

Hebrews 9:11-12, "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."

Hebrews 9:23-24, "It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us."

Are you going to reject the whole book of Hebrews and the New Testament as a whole on this subject and what it says about Jesus in the heavenly temple/sanctuary so you can continue to believe in the false doctrine about a third earthly temple with blasphemous sacrifices? An earthly temple with a high priest would be completely useless because we have a High Priest in heaven who pleads our cases before the throne of God.

1 John 2:1, "My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

1 Timothy 2:5-6, "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,"

Hebrews 8:6, "But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises."

Remember the Bible does not contradict itself so it cannot contradict the entire book of Hebrews and the New Testament can it?

You've misunderstood Revelation 11 as well. Two groups of people are mentioned here, “them that worship” and “the Gentiles.” The first group represents God’s true church, spiritual Israel, while the second (Gentiles) represents a false and corrupt church that professes to worship God but is not true to him.

This part “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there." Its not only the Temple that's being measured, its those who worship there. God’s true people are “measured,” which means they are being judged, while the others are not "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles." I've posted about this on the Pre advent judgement in heaven which takes place before Jesus returns. In that judgement, the only ones being judged are those who have confessed their sins and had them transferred to the temple (the heavenly temple). So this judgment or measurement is to determine whether those who profess to be Christians are really Christ’s faithful people.

Then the scripture goes on to talk about the 2 witnesses..that will be witnesses in the tribulation...there is a temple that will be built and it will involve sacrifices to God..which is because of the Jews unbelief..they believe that building a new temple and reinstating sacrifices is a way back to God. It will take a treaty to get this done..since I think the new temple will be on the Temple Mount...where they have a mosque built and that is why they need to leave out the outer court in Revelation 11:2
Again this contradicts the entire book of Hebrews and the New Testament. So it can't be right can it? I can't go into the explanation of it because it will be too long and I've already explained too much as it is. If you read the whole of Revelation 11 it says that the witnesses are killed then resurrected. The two witness are not what you think they are.

I will reiterate what I said in my previous post to you, the earthly temple/sanctuary was a place where they sacrificed animals for the remission of sins. When the lamb was put on the altar it was to signify Jesus’ great sacrifice for our sins as the only way to find pardon and enter into eternal life. The earthly sanctuary also represented Christ’s mediatory role. As the people went to the priest and watched him perform the duty of mediation in the holy and most holy place, they were to understand that we cannot approach God without Christ interceding on our behalf. So Jesus not only fulfils the role of the lamb that was sacrificed, but also the priest who steps between God and us and shows that our sins have been covered by His blood. We have been made worthy of salvation because we are covered in His righteousness, not our own. After Jesus died on the cross for our sins once and for all (Romans 6:10, Hebrews 10:10, 1 Peter 3:18), there was no point to sacrificing animals for the remission of sins ever again. So if the Jews sacrifice animals again for the remission of sins, wouldn't that be denying Jesus' sacrifice for our sins? Hebrews 9:12 says, "Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption." Is this a lie or is what your doctrine says not biblical? I've already posted what Paul says in the book of Hebrews about what Jesus is doing in the heavenly temple as High priest and mediator for us all. Who are going to believe, your doctrine or the Word of God?

Daniel‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭
And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.​
So, we see, that there is a treaty...sacrifices are being made and then an end to them in the middle of the treaty..then the abomination of desolation...
Oh my Lisa, how can you misinterpret the Bible so much like this. Again this is contradicting Hebrews and the New Testament. I can't go into a deep explanation for Daniel 9:27 because I have to explain it from Daniel 8 where Daniel gets a vision of a Ram and a Goat. Its too long. However a week in prophetic symbology means seven literal years. The prophecy in Daniel 9:27 said that Jesus would confirm the covenant, or the great plan of salvation, with many for one prophetic week (seven literal years). But Jesus was crucified in the middle of that final week that was allotted to His chosen nation. Jesus' disciples preached to the Jews for that final three and a half years, until the nation officially rejected the gospel message in AD 34 when Stephen, a righteous deacon, was publicly stoned.

"He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering." This is talking about Jesus' death that will end sacrifices and offerings. At the time Jesus died, the temple veil was torn into two sections from top to bottom (Matthew 27:50, 51), indicating that Jesus had caused the sacrificial system to cease by His death as the Lamb of God.

Matthew‬ ‭24:15‬ ‭

Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),”
‭‭
‭‭It all makes perfect sense...
No it doesn't make sense because you're all over the place and contradicting the Bible left, right and centre. I already explained what the abomination of desolation is and that is what Jesus was talking about. Its the truth when not taken out of context.

Yes the church will also be persecuted in the end times...
The Jews are always the chosen people!!!
All who choose Christ are a chosen people according to God's Word. Jews are not more special than Gentiles because of their DNA. that is not biblical at all.

Romans‬ ‭11:28-32‬ ‭
From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.​
‭‭

God’s covenant is unbreakable...
God's covenant is unbreakable for all those who choose Him, have faith and submit to Him. Paul has already told us who Israel is and he does not contradict Himself. All who have faith in God are all Abraham's seed. So I'll stick to this truth.

Genesis‬ ‭17:7-8‬ ‭
I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.​
‭‭

Sure..there is a new covenant with God for the gentiles..who are to be grafted in to the olive tree...an olive tree that the Jews will be regrafted into.
The believing Gentiles and believing Jews are all part of Israel. The Jews who will be re-grafted will come individually like the Gentiles. Not as a nation. As individuals Jews can still have salvation; as individuals they are no different from anyone else. As a nation, too, they are no different: all need Jesus but those who will accept Jesus as Messiah will come to Christ individually. All the promises of Israel and all scripture are for God's people. All those who were/are grafted on the olive tree. Today true Christians are that people if they "continue in His (God's) goodness." Romans11:22.

You don’t need to read any other book to figure out what God is doing here...Romans 11 tells us the whole thing. Yes, there is Jew and Gentile still in God’s thinking. The gentiles are here for a time being saved until their fullness comes in and then God turns to look at His chosen people again..who He has not forsaken. That is the gist of Romans 11. And I like how Paul tells us to not get conceited about how we are saved and the Jews aren’t right now..if it happened to them..it could happen to us!
This is why what you're saying contradicts the Word of God. When studying the Bible, we must compare Scripture with Scripture, "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line: here a little and there a little" (Isaiah 28:10). We must remember that the Bible is not one book but 66 books written over a period of 1500 years. That very fact allows us to use the Bible to interpret itself. When we do this, we will discover truth.

We must not ignore parts of the Bible that don't suit us, or discard portions of the Bible as not applicable, or add our own words to it.
"For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:18-19). This applies to the whole Bible.

If we come across a text that seems to contradict other texts, we can safely assume that we do not have a complete understanding of the doctrine that is being studied. Reading the text in context is important. But equally important is to look at the verse in context with all other verses on the same subject. God's Word never changes, and certainly never contradicts itself. If we believe this, then we can have parameters for interpreting Scripture. God cannot lie. If He says one thing in one part of the Bible, He cannot be saying something else elsewhere. Only one understanding can be the right one. Of course it goes without saying that as we study the word of God we should ask Him for His Spirit to enlighten us.
 





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Lisa

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#75
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@Lisa



Thanks for not thinking I'm arrogant but not I'm not wrong. I know I'm not. You are but not intentionally.



Yes and Paul says that because the Jews were God's chosen people first, but it was always God's plan for the whole world to be saved and to join Israel. God was patient with Israel for thousands of years but they chose to believe their leaders instead of Jesus Christ.

When God blessed the Jews, He blessed them as a nation. Why? Because He had promised Abraham that his descendants would become a great nation and occupy the land of Canaan (Genesis 12:3, 17:4, 22:17). Because of Abraham's great faith, his descendants were blessed. This promise was repeated to Abraham’s son Isaac, and to his grandson Jacob.

Why did God bless Israel as a nation? "That Your way may be known on earth,Your salvation among all nations." Psalms 67:2. God chose the Israelites for a purpose and the purpose was to spread God's Word around the world to all nations. God told them, "The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples;" Deuteronomy 7:7.

The Old Testament is full of God's promises to His people Israel. But these were not one‐sided vows. They were two-sided covenants that required absolute compliance from both parties. After God helped the Israelites escape from Egypt, He entered into a covenant with them (Exodus 19:1-8). He said that Israel was to become a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. They were to spread God's light to all people on Earth (Isaiah 60:1-3). But this covenant was conditional to obedience.

There are many blessings in the Old Testament that were never fulfilled because of Israel's disobedience. Deuteronomy 28:1‐14 contains some of the most wonderful blessings that God gave to Israel but they were conditional to obedience. They were never fulfilled.

Over time Israel became more corrupted by sin and unfortunately did not keep God's commands, and became even more corrupt than the pagan nations around them (2 Kings 17:6-23). Disobedience stopped Israel from receiving many promised blessings. In fact, all of Israel's tribes (10 tribes) except Judah and Benjamin were carried away into captivity by the king of Assyria and they disappear from history altogether. A century and a half later, even Judah was plucked from the Promised Land and scattered in the Babylonian Empire. I have a forum on this subject. All through the Old Testament/Covenant, God's people would disobey Him and then He would punish them and for a while they would come to Him, then they would disobey Him again and they would go round in circles like that with God. That wasn't going to go on forever. So God gave Daniel the 70 week prophecy (Daniel 9:24-27) for literal Jews telling them that God had cut off a time for them and in that time they were to change but if they did not change that would be it for Israel as a nation.

The 70 weeks (490 years) finally came to an end with the stoning of Stephen in AD 34. After that the Christian Church assumed its role as the custodians of the gospel.

Did you know that the Jews put a Rabbinic curse in the Talmud that forbids people from reading Daniel 9:24-27? The curse says, "May the bones of the hands and the bones of the fingers decay and decompose, of him who turns the pages of the book of Daniel, to find out the time of Daniel 9:24-27, and may his memory rot from off the face of the earth forever." Why? What were they trying to hide? They understood that the 70-week prophecy (490 literal years), proves that Jesus was the Messiah. It is the greatest proof there is to Jews of Jesus' Messiahship. They can predict the time of the Messiah's anointing, putting the issue beyond doubt. Instead of repenting and believing the Messiah, they put a curse on His Word.

Lets be clear, God does not abandon anyone who comes to Him whether they are Jews or Gentiles. God never abandoned any Jews who accepted Him as Messiah and followed His precepts. The first Christians we read about in the Bible are Jews. However they are not going to be saved as a nation. They will be saved individually not together.



I've read Romans 11 a lot because this is one of the chapters that Zionists keep quoting. But you are missing the point of what Romans 11 and the whole New Testament is talking about on this subject. I'll try and explain this from another angle although I'm not good at explaining myself in words. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

You should remember that the early converts to Christianity were all Jews. For example, the group that was converted on the Day of Pentecost. So Paul when talking about the olive tree (Israel) says that some of those branches have been broken off (the unbelieving Jews). That means believing Jews were not broken off. Then he says that into this tree the believing Gentiles have been grafted. The olive tree represents Israel so the Gentiles are are drawing their sap and vitality from believing Jews who were not broken off. So believing Gentiles and Jews are now part of Israel. There is no distinction between them.

Paul then says that the broken off branches can be grafted back into Israel as long as they believe. The believing Gentiles are still in there. Jews won't and don't get grafted back in Israel altogether as a nation, they get grafted back in individually.



What Paul says in Romans 11:11 is not as simple as you make it out to be. After Israel rejected Christ, Jesus told the Jews that their kingdom was being taken from them (Matthew 21:43). That means the gospel was taken from them and given to the Gentiles. As I told you above God chose Israel as nation to spread the gospel around the world. It was always in His plan that through Israel all nations would learn of Him and worship and obey Him. Sadly that wasn't to be because of Israel's sins which included disobedience, arrogance, pride and exclusion of other nations.

In Romans 10:19 Paul says, "But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says: “I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation, I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.” Paul was saying that the he hoped the Jews would see the close relationship and blessings the Gentiles had with Christ and that would provoke them to return to Him through faith. He hoped this would make Jews consider their own salvation.



You've misinterpreted scripture again. Romans 11:25 does not cancel out Galatians 3:29 or all the other scripture in the New Testament that has made it clear that all who come to Christ are Abraham's seed. Which means they are Israel. The Bible does not contradict itself, if it seems like it is we have got to see what it says about the subject in other parts of the Bible.

The whole point of Romans 11 is Paul reaching out to Jews. Paul is answering the question he asked in verse 1. “Hath God cast away his people?” His answer, of course, is no, and his explanation is 1, that the blindness is only “in part,” and 2, that it is only temporary, “until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.”

The fullness of the Gospel means the fulfilment of the gospel being preached to all the world as was always God's intention. All the world will hear the gospel. In fact the gospel has been preached to all the world. The coming of Jesus is near. At this point, then, many Jews start coming to Jesus.

However Zionism teaches that all Jews are going to somehow miraculously accept Christ as the Messiah. Why would God do that for the Jews and not the whole world? Why would He favour Jews over all His people around the world? Its not biblical at all.

In Romans 11:26 it says “all Israel shall be saved .” This must not be understood to mean that every Jew will by some divine order have salvation in the end time. Nowhere do the Scriptures preach universalism for the entire human race or for a particular segment or nation of people. Paul was hoping to save some of them. "If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them." (Romans 11:14). Some accepted the Messiah, and some rejected Him, as it is with all people groups around the entire world since the creation of this world. Yes, many Jews will be converted but many won't either. They will do it individually too and not as a nation.

In conclusion, you've completely misunderstood Romans 11. The Gentiles who are grafted in to Israel are not going to leave unless they are disobedient like the Jews who were broken off for disbelief. As Paul says in Galatians 3:7-9, "those who have faith are children of Abraham." We see through Scripture that God foresaw and would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
What do you think of God saying He will be their God forever, though? Do you think He up and changed His mind about that? Did He break His covenant?

Genesis‬ ‭17:7‬ ‭
I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.​
‭‭
Sure, Israel didn’t always follow God but that’s why He sent them the prophets, right? He still wanted them to come back to Him.

God does say that He will bring Israel back into the land for His sake though, not because of them. It seems as though God has done that..wouldn’t you say? Though He hasn’t washed them clean yet.
Ezekiel 36:22-24
Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD," declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.​


You’re wrong about Daniel 9:24-27 and the stoning of Stephen being related. Because of the abomination of desolation where the anti is revealed. There is a treaty that is made for one week or 7 years where the Jews build a third temple and start sacrifices again...in the middle of the 7 years 3 1/2 years then the sacrifice is stopped and the desolation of abomination is committed by the anti.

I do think that Jews can be saved through Jesus..I also believe that they will be saved as a nation in the end when they will look upon the one they have pierced..that’s when they will all believe on Jesus.

I have more respect for you trying to debate me with your own words than a cut and paste job anyway...

Romans 11:24 talks about the natural branches being grafted into their own olive tree. So, yes that is talking about the Jews being put back in. Sure, it can happen individually but God has a plan for His remnant Jews.

And He has His plans for the saved from among the gentiles...but those plans don’t include replacing Israel..at least until the fullness of the gentiles comes in. And in fact we don’t replace them as God’s chosen people and we don’t replace them in the covenant God made to be their God forever.
 





Lisa

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#76
@Lisa



Both apostles preached to both Gentiles and Jews. In Romans 11 Paul is preaching to the Jews and he does so in other parts of the New Testament.

Have you forgotten about Cornelius the Centurion who was a God fearing man but a Gentile in the book of Acts chapter 10? An angel appeared to Cornelius in a dream and told him to send his men to Joppa for Peter. Cornelius did exactly as the angel instructed. Then Peter got a vision from God that told him to eat unclean food. Some Christians think this vision is God saying its okay to unclean foods but the vision wasn't about food at all. Peter had not understood that God intended for Gentiles to be preached to the gospel and to join Israel. God told him in Acts 10:15, "What God has cleansed you must not call common.”

Cornelius' men found Peter and invited him to go to his house where the two meet and share about their dream and vision. Then Peter delivers the Good News to the Gentiles: Peter says in verse 28, "You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean." He continues in verses 34-35, "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him." He continued to preach the gospel to the Gentiles but while he was still preaching, verses 44-48, "the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days. If you read Acts 11 you will see how the apostles and brethren reacted when they found out Peter had eaten and spent time with uncircumcised men.

Paul preached to more Gentiles than Peter but they both preached to Jews and Gentiles.



Let me post Romans 11:1-5 to understand what Paul is saying here in context.

"I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

What Paul is saying clearly is that even though Israel had rejected Christ, even though they'd killed the prophets and torn down His altars, God always had a people who believed in Him. Who did not abandoned Him. So even in Paul's day at that present time there was a remnant of Jews who believed in Christ.

All through out the ages from creation till the end God always has a remnant people. Despite Israel's disobedience there were always people who had faith in God. And it will be the same till Jesus returns. Satan always did and will make life difficult for the remnant but they always persevere. The dark ages is an example of what God's people went through but they did not compromise with their faith till death. The remnant are those who "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."



Biblically there is no third temple built on earth. I explained to you about a temple in heaven in which Jesus is the High Priest as Paul tells us in the book of Hebrews.

Hebrews 4:14-16, "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."

Hebrews 8:1-2, 5, "Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man. who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”

Hebrews 9:11-12, "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."

Hebrews 9:23-24, "It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us."

Are you going to reject the whole book of Hebrews and the New Testament as a whole on this subject and what it says about Jesus in the heavenly temple/sanctuary so you can continue to believe in the false doctrine about a third earthly temple with blasphemous sacrifices? An earthly temple with a high priest would be completely useless because we have a High Priest in heaven who pleads our cases before the throne of God.

1 John 2:1, "My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

1 Timothy 2:5-6, "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,"

Hebrews 8:6, "But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises."

Remember the Bible does not contradict itself so it cannot contradict the entire book of Hebrews and the New Testament can it?

You've misunderstood Revelation 11 as well. Two groups of people are mentioned here, “them that worship” and “the Gentiles.” The first group represents God’s true church, spiritual Israel, while the second (Gentiles) represents a false and corrupt church that professes to worship God but is not true to him.

This part “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there." Its not only the Temple that's being measured, its those who worship there. God’s true people are “measured,” which means they are being judged, while the others are not "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles." I've posted about this on the Pre advent judgement in heaven which takes place before Jesus returns. In that judgement, the only ones being judged are those who have confessed their sins and had them transferred to the temple (the heavenly temple). So this judgment or measurement is to determine whether those who profess to be Christians are really Christ’s faithful people.



Again this contradicts the entire book of Hebrews and the New Testament. So it can't be right can it? I can't go into the explanation of it because it will be too long and I've already explained too much as it is. If you read the whole of Revelation 11 it says that the witnesses are killed then resurrected. The two witness are not what you think they are.

I will reiterate what I said in my previous post to you, the earthly temple/sanctuary was a place where they sacrificed animals for the remission of sins. When the lamb was put on the altar it was to signify Jesus’ great sacrifice for our sins as the only way to find pardon and enter into eternal life. The earthly sanctuary also represented Christ’s mediatory role. As the people went to the priest and watched him perform the duty of mediation in the holy and most holy place, they were to understand that we cannot approach God without Christ interceding on our behalf. So Jesus not only fulfils the role of the lamb that was sacrificed, but also the priest who steps between God and us and shows that our sins have been covered by His blood. We have been made worthy of salvation because we are covered in His righteousness, not our own. After Jesus died on the cross for our sins once and for all (Romans 6:10, Hebrews 10:10, 1 Peter 3:18), there was no point to sacrificing animals for the remission of sins ever again. So if the Jews sacrifice animals again for the remission of sins, wouldn't that be denying Jesus' sacrifice for our sins? Hebrews 9:12 says, "Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption." Is this a lie or is what your doctrine says not biblical? I've already posted what Paul says in the book of Hebrews about what Jesus is doing in the heavenly temple as High priest and mediator for us all. Who are going to believe, your doctrine or the Word of God?



Oh my Lisa, how can you misinterpret the Bible so much like this. Again this is contradicting Hebrews and the New Testament. I can't go into a deep explanation for Daniel 9:27 because I have to explain it from Daniel 8 where Daniel gets a vision of a Ram and a Goat. Its too long. However a week in prophetic symbology means seven literal years. The prophecy in Daniel 9:27 said that Jesus would confirm the covenant, or the great plan of salvation, with many for one prophetic week (seven literal years). But Jesus was crucified in the middle of that final week that was allotted to His chosen nation. Jesus' disciples preached to the Jews for that final three and a half years, until the nation officially rejected the gospel message in AD 34 when Stephen, a righteous deacon, was publicly stoned.

"He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering." This is talking about Jesus' death that will end sacrifices and offerings. At the time Jesus died, the temple veil was torn into two sections from top to bottom (Matthew 27:50, 51), indicating that Jesus had caused the sacrificial system to cease by His death as the Lamb of God.



No it doesn't make sense because you're all over the place and contradicting the Bible left, right and centre. I already explained what the abomination of desolation is and that is what Jesus was talking about. Its the truth when not taken out of context.



All who choose Christ are a chosen people according to God's Word. Jews are not more special than Gentiles because of their DNA. that is not biblical at all.



God's covenant is unbreakable for all those who choose Him, have faith and submit to Him. Paul has already told us who Israel is and he does not contradict Himself. All who have faith in God are all Abraham's seed. So I'll stick to this truth.



The believing Gentiles and believing Jews are all part of Israel. The Jews who be re-grafted will come individually like the Gentiles. Not as a nation. As individuals Jews can still have salvation; as individuals they are no different from anyone else. As a nation, too, they are no different: all need Jesus but those who will accept Jesus as Messiah will come to Christ individually. All the promises of Israel and all scripture are for God's people. All those who were/are grafted on the olive tree. Today true Christians are that people if they "continue in His (God's) goodness." Romans11:22.



This is why what you're saying contradicts the Word of God. When studying the Bible, we must compare Scripture with Scripture, "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line: here a little and there a little" (Isaiah 28:10). We must remember that the Bible is not one book but 66 books written over a period of 1500 years. That very fact allows us to use the Bible to interpret itself. When we do this, we will discover truth.

We must not ignore parts of the Bible that don't suit us, or discard portions of the Bible as not applicable, or add our own words to it.
"For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:18-19). This applies to the whole Bible.

If we come across a text that seems to contradict other texts, we can safely assume that we do not have a complete understanding of the doctrine that is being studied. Reading the text in context is important. But equally important is to look at the verse in context with all other verses on the same subject. God's Word never changes, and certainly never contradicts itself. If we believe this, then we can have parameters for interpreting Scripture. God cannot lie. If He says one thing in one part of the Bible, He cannot be saying something else elsewhere. Only one understanding can be the right one. Of course it goes without saying that as we study the word of God we should ask Him for His Spirit to enlighten us.
My texts don’t contradict each other though. You seem to be only able to see what you want to see with the texts you quote.
Yes, there is the Good News now and that has become the way of salvation and because of that no temples or sacrifices need to be made. But the Jews who rejected Jesus don’t know that. They think that they do need a new temple and to reinstate sacrifices to become close to God...just like in the OT. And the Bible is clear that another temple will be rebuilt and the antichrist will come into the holy of Hokies of that temple and defile it. That’s all future end times prophecies that we are drawing nearer to.

The Jews are still God’s chosen people, that will never end for them and they are the apple of God’s eye...just because of their blood, their relationship to Abraham.

Looks like it’s a public mourning and return to God for the Jews.
Zechariah‬ ‭12:10-14‬ ‭
I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves.​
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#77
My texts don’t contradict each other though. You seem to be only able to see what you want to see with the texts you quote.
Yes, there is the Good News now and that has become the way of salvation and because of that no temples or sacrifices need to be made. But the Jews who rejected Jesus don’t know that. They think that they do need a new temple and to reinstate sacrifices to become close to God...just like in the OT. And the Bible is clear that another temple will be rebuilt and the antichrist will come into the holy of Hokies of that temple and defile it. That’s all future end times prophecies that we are drawing nearer to.

The Jews are still God’s chosen people, that will never end for them and they are the apple of God’s eye...just because of their blood, their relationship to Abraham.

Looks like it’s a public mourning and return to God for the Jews.
Zechariah‬ ‭12:10-14‬ ‭​

I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves.​
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Except, this is not true for people who claim to be Jews but are not, as Christ says twice in the Revelation. Since they are not Jews, even though they lie by claiming to be Jews, it means that not only are they NOT descended from Abraham, it also means they are NOT God's Chosen people and that they never were. The Ashkenazis are Japhetihtes, which means they don't have a single drop of Abraham's blood in their veins.

God caused both the first Temple (that was built by Solomon ben David - 4th king of The United Kingdom of Israel and Judah) and then the second Temple (rebuilt by Herod, who was an Idumean/Edomite convert to Judaism, and who was therefore not related to nor descended from Judah/Jewdah of Israel) to be demolished.

The Bible does not say that another Temple will be allowed to be built by humans (Matt. 24:2, Rev. 21:22).

That’s all future end times prophecies that we are drawing nearer to.
In Ezekiel 35-36 and 11:14 it was prophesied about the inhabitants of Seir (Idumean zionists) that would in the end times take possession of the Holy Land and claim it as theirs and keep the Children of Israel out:

Ezekiel 11:15 Son of man, thy brethren, [even] thy brethren, the men of thy kindred, and all the House of Israel wholly, [are] they unto whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, Get you far from the "I AM": unto us is this land given in possession (Idumean zionists - 1948).
 





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#78
@Lisa

What do you think of God saying He will be their God forever, though? Do you think He up and changed His mind about that? Did He break His covenant?

Genesis‬ ‭17:7‬ ‭
I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.​
Yes God said He will be their Father and He is. God does not lie or change His mind and His word. But God did not say He will only be the Father of only literal Jews did He? After all He created this world all that is in it including all the people who He loves as much as He did/does love Israel. The New Covenant tells us that Israel had now become universal. All who accept Christ are now Israel regardless of of where they are from or what DNA they have.

Sure, Israel didn’t always follow God but that’s why He sent them the prophets, right? He still wanted them to come back to Him.
God does say that He will bring Israel back into the land for His sake though, not because of them. It seems as though God has done that..wouldn’t you say? Though He hasn’t washed them clean yet.
Ezekiel 36:22-24
Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD," declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.​
Yes God sent them prophets and do you know what the Jews did to them? Jesus told them Himself. In Matthew 23:37-39 Jesus laments over Jerusalem because He knew as a nation they were about to be cut off. As a collective people their blessings were about to end.

"“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

It was God’s desire to save Israel, but it was their will to turn away. There was nothing left but to pronounce judgment, and Jesus did this in Matthew 23:38, “Your house is left to you desolate” Israel suffered severely and Jews were dispersed over the world. The expression left desolate is contained in a simple verb meaning to be left alone. God left Israel alone as a nation.

You now know that Israel is universal that includes both believing Jews and Gentiles.

You’re wrong about Daniel 9:24-27 and the stoning of Stephen being related. Because of the abomination of desolation where the anti is revealed. There is a treaty that is made for one week or 7 years where the Jews build a third temple and start sacrifices again...in the middle of the 7 years 3 1/2 years then the sacrifice is stopped and the desolation of abomination is committed by the anti.
I'm not wrong and do you know why? First, the Jews understood Daniel 9 :24-27 and banned anyone from reading those verses because they clearly knew who the Messiah was and the time He was on earth. Secondly, when you add the years from the start of the 2300 years which the 70 weeks/490 years is part of, they end in the year Stephen was stoned to death. Thirdly the Bible talks about the abomination of desolation in other parts of the Bible and if you compare scripture with scripture it becomes obvious what it is. i explained that to you. The seven years are not about any treaty. The seven years are the last years of probation for Israel in Daniels Prophecy in which Jesus came and died in the middle of, which ended sacrifices. Only Jesus' death could end the sacrifices offered at the temple.

I do think that Jews can be saved through Jesus..I also believe that they will be saved as a nation in the end when they will look upon the one they have pierced..that’s when they will all believe on Jesus.
Yes Jews and anyone else who chooses Christ and His precepts will be saved. Just because you believe something doesn't make it true. The Word of God is truth and it does not say anywhere that entire nations are going to be saved. We are all going to be saved individually and that includes Jews. They are not an exception to the rule. God treats everyone equally. Unless you're saying the Jews are more special to God than everyone else. What do you think that says about God's character?

I have more respect for you trying to debate me with your own words than a cut and paste job anyway...
I tried but I still needed help because my writing is abysmal.

Romans 11:24 talks about the natural branches being grafted into their own olive tree. So, yes that is talking about the Jews being put back in. Sure, it can happen individually but God has a plan for His remnant Jews.
Yes but don't dismiss the fact that wild shoots (Gentiles) are grafted on the olive tree too. That means as I said before, they are now part of Israel. God is not going to kick the Gentiles out is He? God has a plan for remnant Jews who are universal. Israel is for Jews and Gentiles. They are all grafted on the olive Tree individually. Jews have got to accept Jesus individually like the rest of the world.

Did you know in the Old Testament Gentiles also became part of Israel? God told them to accept Gentiles within their households but I can't get the scriptures right now. One of the Gentiles I remember is Ruth. So even in the Old Covenant God accepted Gentiles who believed in Him.

And He has His plans for the saved from among the gentiles...but those plans don’t include replacing Israel..at least until the fullness of the gentiles comes in. And in fact we don’t replace them as God’s chosen people and we don’t replace them in the covenant God made to be their God forever.
Then you disagree with the Bible don't you? I mean its so clear that the true Christian Church is Israel and that it is universal. Believing Jews are not separated from believing Gentiles in the Bible.

Paul wrote, "They are not all Israel, which are of Israel." Romans 9:6. That means, not all are part of God's spiritual Israel who are of the literal nation of Israel. Paul continued, "That is, They which are the children of the flesh [physical descendants of Abraham], these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9:8. The children of the flesh are only natural descendants of Abraham, but the children of the promise are counted as the true seed. Today any person, Jew or Gentile can become a part of this spiritual nation of Israel through faith in Jesus Christ.
 





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I've thought alot about this question too and yes, it is. Although the bible also talks about not liking jews so its a bit two side divided but it is prophecy.
 





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#80
My texts don’t contradict each other though. You seem to be only able to see what you want to see with the texts you quote.
Yes, there is the Good News now and that has become the way of salvation and because of that no temples or sacrifices need to be made. But the Jews who rejected Jesus don’t know that. They think that they do need a new temple and to reinstate sacrifices to become close to God...just like in the OT. And the Bible is clear that another temple will be rebuilt and the antichrist will come into the holy of Hokies of that temple and defile it. That’s all future end times prophecies that we are drawing nearer to.

The Jews are still God’s chosen people, that will never end for them and they are the apple of God’s eye...just because of their blood, their relationship to Abraham.

Looks like it’s a public mourning and return to God for the Jews.
Zechariah‬ ‭12:10-14‬ ‭​

I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves.​
‭‭

My texts don’t contradict each other though. You seem to be only able to see what you want to see with the texts you quote.
They do contradict each other and the Bible too. You are taking scripture out of context and making it fit in with your doctrine. You're not letting the Bible interpret itself. I say this kindly and not in a judgemental way.

Yes, there is the Good News now and that has become the way of salvation and because of that no temples or sacrifices need to be made. But the Jews who rejected Jesus don’t know that. They think that they do need a new temple and to reinstate sacrifices to become close to God...just like in the OT. And the Bible is clear that another temple will be rebuilt and the antichrist will come into the holy of Hokies of that temple and defile it. That’s all future end times prophecies that we are drawing nearer to.
When Jesus died for all our sins that included all mankind including Jews whether they accepted Him or not. So all they have to do is come to Christ and accept Him as their personal Saviour and submit to Him as we all have to. They do not have to build a temple nor does the Bible say there is going to be a third earthly temple built here on earth. The temple we read about is the one Jesus is in right now as our High Priest and mediator. It is from there that He will come back for His people when He returns the second time. Unless you want to cancel an entire subject from the Bible in the New Testament.

We read about the heavenly temple in the book of Revelation too. Revelation 3:12, 7:9, 7:15, 11:19, 21:22.

This is copy and pasted from my forum.

"In one place, Revelation clearly ties the heavenly temple-sanctuary to the earthly tabernacle-sanctuary: “After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened.” (Revelation 15:5). The phrase “the tabernacle of the testimony” is used in the Old Testament to designate the earthly sanctuary (Numbers 1:50), because it enshrined within its walls the tables of the Decalogue, known as “The Testimony.” Within the heavenly temple, John also observed the seven-branched lampstand (menorah) of the earthly sanctuary (Revelation 1:12-13; 4:5) and the golden altar before the throne (Revelation 8:3; 9:13)."

By the Jews building the temple they are blaspheming Jesus and denying His sacrifice on the cross. What would the purpose of sacrificing an animal for the remission of sins really accomplish when Jesus already sacrificed Himself once and for all? What would be the point of an earthly high priest? We already have a High Priest in heaven advocating for us. An earthly temple would be completely pointless. That's why a third earthly temple is not biblical at all.

I urge you to read my forum on the heavenly temple/sanctuary. As I told you it is a very important subject as there are 20 odd chapters that talk about this subject. So that tells us how important it is to understand Jesus' role as our High Priest and mediator in the heavenly temple.

Zionists always use 2 Thessalonians 2:4 to argue that a third temple will definitely be rebuilt that the anitchrist will sit on. Now that you know Israel is universal and includes both Jews and Gentiles in the New Covenant, that means the antichrist power would seat itself over the church of God claiming the worship that belongs only to Jesus Christ. The temple is not literal because the literal one is in heaven with our High Priest advocating for us. Historically, some protestant scholars have applied Paul’s words to the papal power, and to its influence within Christianity.I agree with them. The antichrist is the papacy and Lord knows it has exalted itself above all that is called God since the Church came into existence and will do till the end.

The Jews are still God’s chosen people, that will never end for them and they are the apple of God’s eye...just because of their blood, their relationship to Abraham.

Looks like it’s a public mourning and return to God for the Jews.‬ ‭
Not in the New covenant. I think I'm going to post on the Old and New Covenants sometime next year too. Many Christians don't understand what they are. They don't understand why the New Covenant had to replace the Old one. Its a long subject that needs a lot of study from the entire Bible.

Zechariah‬ ‭12:10-14‬ ‭
I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves.​
I've repeatedly told you the meaning of what Israel is and how that changed in the New covenant. I didn't make this up you know. Its God's Word. Any promises for Israel are fulfilled in spiritual Israel in the New Covenant. That is the real Israel now.

I can't say any more than this on this subject to you. I pray that God will reveal the truth of this subject to you. God bless.
 





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