Red Sky at Morning
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Is "Molinism" the key to the free will and predestination paradox?
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Daciple
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Yes sir, I would definitely choose Molinism over Calvinism or Arminianism!! I dont think many people have ever heard of it, I wish I had more time to go over it on here, but with the new baby and work it is hard to find time to dedicate to these topics as I would like. I created that Thread and it was my desire to get some discussions about it, but since I have been busy I didnt have time to keep up on it, maybe this thread will get this ideology out there for others to understand...
Red Sky at Morning
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I was intrigued when thinking about the incident with Abraham, Sarah and Abimalech in Gen 20...
"6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her. 7 Now then, return the man's wife, for he is a prophet, so that he will pray for you, and you shall live. But if you do not return her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.”
The king had done nothing to Sarah but God knew that if he hadn't have kept him from her, he definitely would have!
To me this looks like a good example of "middle knowledge" in action.
"6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her. 7 Now then, return the man's wife, for he is a prophet, so that he will pray for you, and you shall live. But if you do not return her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.”
The king had done nothing to Sarah but God knew that if he hadn't have kept him from her, he definitely would have!
To me this looks like a good example of "middle knowledge" in action.
Daciple,
Your signature, Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. is very meaningful to you, I'm sure. It, of course, is the Great Commission, the command given by Christ, after His resurrection, to the 11 disciples, only - search and see. When Christ told this to the 11, He first made sure than no one else was around. He also said in vs 16 that whoever believed and was baptized would be saved - obviously baptism is not a rule for salvation in today's period of pure grace. The Great Commission is not the marching orders for the Church today. Christendom has a nasty little habit of assuming everything in the Gospels and the Acts apply to us today when both of these periods were solely directed to Israel (and some Gentiles that were grafted into Israel during Acts for the sole purpose of provoking Israel to jealousy). The 11 or 12 never even got started doing this. It is a future thing, when the 12 have been resurrected and Israel will be a blessing to the nations, as promised many times. We are told by Paul, the only apostle to us Gentiles, in 2Tim 4:5, to all do the work of an evangelist but that's a totally different deal than the so-called Great Commission, given only to the 11 (or, 12).
Your signature, Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. is very meaningful to you, I'm sure. It, of course, is the Great Commission, the command given by Christ, after His resurrection, to the 11 disciples, only - search and see. When Christ told this to the 11, He first made sure than no one else was around. He also said in vs 16 that whoever believed and was baptized would be saved - obviously baptism is not a rule for salvation in today's period of pure grace. The Great Commission is not the marching orders for the Church today. Christendom has a nasty little habit of assuming everything in the Gospels and the Acts apply to us today when both of these periods were solely directed to Israel (and some Gentiles that were grafted into Israel during Acts for the sole purpose of provoking Israel to jealousy). The 11 or 12 never even got started doing this. It is a future thing, when the 12 have been resurrected and Israel will be a blessing to the nations, as promised many times. We are told by Paul, the only apostle to us Gentiles, in 2Tim 4:5, to all do the work of an evangelist but that's a totally different deal than the so-called Great Commission, given only to the 11 (or, 12).
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Daciple
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Meh you are wrong, again. The Great Commission is given to me and you, we are to preach the gospel to every creature, I hope that you do what your Lord and Savior commanded you sir...
Your Dispensationalism has even ruined your ability to discern the very most important thing we are Commanded to do by Jesus Himself, that is so sad to see. I hope you give up your Elitism and follow the Command of Christ to spread the Gospel!!!
Red Sky at Morning
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I was driving along today and overtook a girl driving a mini who had a flat tyre on the front. The traffic was fast and it was inconvenient so I didn't flash at her car or wave to her...
After a bit more driving I noticed she was oblivious to her danger, listening to her radio and singing along.
The traffic ground to a halt as there was an accident ahead. All of a sudden I realised this girl could be next and I was desperate for my lane to catch hers so I could tell her, but the chance passed me by.
I say this because it might have inconvenienced me for a moment to share an uncomfortable truth with her, but now I hope she realised further down the road despite me.
I don't want to feel that way when I meet Jesus and he asks me what I did with the people he put in my path.
Hope this makes sense @Daciple ...
After a bit more driving I noticed she was oblivious to her danger, listening to her radio and singing along.
The traffic ground to a halt as there was an accident ahead. All of a sudden I realised this girl could be next and I was desperate for my lane to catch hers so I could tell her, but the chance passed me by.
I say this because it might have inconvenienced me for a moment to share an uncomfortable truth with her, but now I hope she realised further down the road despite me.
I don't want to feel that way when I meet Jesus and he asks me what I did with the people he put in my path.
Hope this makes sense @Daciple ...
Wrong as usual, on all points. I'm not one of the 11 and neither are you. Where in the Bible does it say that Gentile Christendom is to take over the Great Commission? Where does it say that anyone but the 11 were to perform the Great Commission? Nowhere. Another wrong assumption ommonly made by fundamentalist Christians. Jesus Christ told the 11 and only the 11. Who gives you the authority to take this over? It certainly wasn't Jesus Christ. If the Bible doesn't say it, it's not true. If you can't answer these questions, it is proof you are wrong
Like I said, Paul said to do the work of an evangelist. That's spreading the gospel but it isn't the Great Commission
You just bully your way in and push people around. I don't think you've ever had to prove what you preach. You would fail it that since you certainly don't know your Bible.
BTW, calling Jesus Christ by His common earthly name, Jesus, is a insult to Him. He has been raised and glorified. His name is now Jesus Christ or, probably more correct, Christ Jesus.
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Daciple
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@cfowen Lets take a moment and step back and survey what is really going on here, can I ask has anything you have stated in this Thread pertain to Molinism whatsoever? Looking at your posts I will go with no it does not, so may I ask why are you mentioning anything you have stated thus far in this particular Thread? Do you like to derail Threads, is that your intention on the forum?
2nd let us notice what it is you have chosen to do and or say in this Thread, one in which OUGHT to be about Molinism. In this Thread so far all I have seen is that you have chosen to single me out concerning the Scripture I have in my signature, and within that mindset have desired to basically dissuade me and of course our fellow readers from following the Command of Christ to preach the gospel to the World. Do you really think that is the best use of your time on this site, dissuading a Christian from their desire to preach the Gospel in lieu of your misguided understanding and systematic theology? I personally wouldnt choose to do such a thing, if one is Born Again then I would desire to support them in their endeavor of preaching the Gospel, even if they dont hold the same ideologies concerning Dispensationalism or whatever other Theology they attest to save Damnable Doctrine of which ones difference in Eschatology is by no means Salvation Dependent.
However I see that what is more important to you at the moment is this desire to assert yourself as being more correct on your Theology than I am because I chose in a wholly different Thread to reject your personal interpretations and the little denomination that you have aligned yourself with concerning Dispensationalism. Clearly this has gotten under your skin and upset you in some way, possible you do not like when others publicly reject your opinions on Scriptures? When they offer a dissent viewpoint and challenge your assertions? I am not sure but it has caused you to bleed your disagreement on that into a thread that literally has absolutely nothing to do with such things. That sort of thing is usually frowned upon, but hey brother you do you, derail away I suppose...
From the very few exchanges we have had concerning this subject, I would liken you in your Dispensationalism as the equivalent to Hyper Calvinism in the Calvinist ideologies, you are exceedingly niche in your beliefs and then look down upon anyone who dares disagrees. Hopefully we wont see you go as far as they do and start declaring others Lost because they dont accept your overstated yet exceedingly narrow (and incorrect) viewpoints of which pretty much no one in History actually agrees with...
I am sure as we continue dialogue and you state more and more of your positions that even your own Dispensationalist brethren will begin to disagree with you, and I suppose at that point you can stand upon your mounds of degrees and scholars and tell them just how much more intelligent you are then they and how as usual they are wrong too...
Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
So what are some of the essential aspects of the Great Commission?
1) Baptising in the name of the Father Son and the Holy Ghost
2) Teach to observe what Christ commanded
3) Go into the World and preach to every creature
4) Signs follow to confirm the Commission was given (important to remember)
5) Repentance in the Name of Jesus
6) Remain at Jerusalem UNTIL the Power on High comes
7) Baptism in the Holy Ghost (another thing important to remember)
Now lets look at Scripture and see if these thing EVER were passed to Gentiles:
Acts 10:10 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
So we see Peter preach to the Gentiles here (something you say he didnt do, but only to the Jews which again is wrong) and they receive the Holy Ghost and confirm it with Signs, just as Scripture says will happen for those who are doing the Great Commission. Are there are other instances of the Gentiles/Non Apostles performing baptisms, showing signs, teaching about Christ, ect?
Acts 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
Here we see Phillip who is NOT the Apostle Phillip and what do learn about him?
Acts 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
So Philip who is NOT an Apostle, preached Christ, performed miracles, baptized people, preach and baptized a Gentile yet you would want to tell me that he was NOT part of the Great Commission? Clearly he does the identical things Christ commanded, therefore we can be certain that the Great Commission was extended to him and ALL those who were spread from the 1st Church in Jerusalem outwards after the death of Stephen. The Great Commission began with the 11, then clearly extended to these 7 and as we see later continues to extend to Paul and then onto the Gentiles as it us who now do what? Preach the Gospel, baptize in the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost and are indwelled with the Holy Ghost and teach others what Christ commanded ect ect ect...
Paul who was NOT one of the 11 completely fulfills all of these exact things.
1) Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
2) Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
3) Acts 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth
4) Acts 28:3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
4 And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
5) Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
7) Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
So clearly Paul fulfilled every mark (save wait at Jerusalem) that is Commanded in the Great Commission. I mean I dont know about you but it is my lifes goal and hope to do everything contained in the Great Commission, when Christ spoke it, He spoke it personally to me. If you dont want to participate in the Great Commission then so be it, but if you are save then I know for a fact THAT will be your desire, if it isnt then well you might want to make sure that you have been Born Again and not just a believer in mind puffed up on vain knowledge as opposed to a believer from the heart. Thats between you and God tho brother. If you are looking for a verse that says Gentiles go be the Great Commission then yep its not in there, but if we simply read what Jesus Commanded, then look at the lives of those in the Bible and how we structure our walk and desire (well those who are saved at least) then it is blatantly obvious that we are all to participate in the Great Commission. I hope you dont let a systematic theology ruin your chance to participate in the most wonderful of all Commands besides Repentance unto Salvation that the Lord Jesus Christ spoke to you...
Anywho, are we going to continue to derail this Thread with your personal vendetta against me for daring to reject your Hyper Dispensationalism, or would you like to speak about Molinism?
Do you know what Molinism is? Are you in favor or against it? Why or why not? Do you lean more towards Calvinism or Arminianism? Why? Which one of these ideologies fits the best with your Hyper Dispensationalism?
Do us all a favor if you decided you want to continue this personal vendetta against me, start a different Thread, let us try and respect Red here and keep our posts on Topic, or I guess continue your derailment, up to you brother...
2nd let us notice what it is you have chosen to do and or say in this Thread, one in which OUGHT to be about Molinism. In this Thread so far all I have seen is that you have chosen to single me out concerning the Scripture I have in my signature, and within that mindset have desired to basically dissuade me and of course our fellow readers from following the Command of Christ to preach the gospel to the World. Do you really think that is the best use of your time on this site, dissuading a Christian from their desire to preach the Gospel in lieu of your misguided understanding and systematic theology? I personally wouldnt choose to do such a thing, if one is Born Again then I would desire to support them in their endeavor of preaching the Gospel, even if they dont hold the same ideologies concerning Dispensationalism or whatever other Theology they attest to save Damnable Doctrine of which ones difference in Eschatology is by no means Salvation Dependent.
However I see that what is more important to you at the moment is this desire to assert yourself as being more correct on your Theology than I am because I chose in a wholly different Thread to reject your personal interpretations and the little denomination that you have aligned yourself with concerning Dispensationalism. Clearly this has gotten under your skin and upset you in some way, possible you do not like when others publicly reject your opinions on Scriptures? When they offer a dissent viewpoint and challenge your assertions? I am not sure but it has caused you to bleed your disagreement on that into a thread that literally has absolutely nothing to do with such things. That sort of thing is usually frowned upon, but hey brother you do you, derail away I suppose...
No sir, I do not believe I am wrong and billions of Christians since the Resurrection of Christ agree with me and would disagree with you, however as we have found out in the other thread you care not for FACTS concerning these things and cling to your Elitist view that you and the very tiny amount of people who accept your personal interpretations are the only ones who are dividing the Scriptures correctly. I will align myself with how the Apostles and the people who knew the Apostles discerned these verses as opposed to some guy on the internet 2000 yrs later with his new interpretations.
From the very few exchanges we have had concerning this subject, I would liken you in your Dispensationalism as the equivalent to Hyper Calvinism in the Calvinist ideologies, you are exceedingly niche in your beliefs and then look down upon anyone who dares disagrees. Hopefully we wont see you go as far as they do and start declaring others Lost because they dont accept your overstated yet exceedingly narrow (and incorrect) viewpoints of which pretty much no one in History actually agrees with...
I am sure as we continue dialogue and you state more and more of your positions that even your own Dispensationalist brethren will begin to disagree with you, and I suppose at that point you can stand upon your mounds of degrees and scholars and tell them just how much more intelligent you are then they and how as usual they are wrong too...
What is the essence of the Great Commission? Lets look at the Scriptures to see what the Great Commission comprised of ( which you say we are NOT to partake in NOR have the Apostles fulfilled these things, both incorrect)
Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
So what are some of the essential aspects of the Great Commission?
1) Baptising in the name of the Father Son and the Holy Ghost
2) Teach to observe what Christ commanded
3) Go into the World and preach to every creature
4) Signs follow to confirm the Commission was given (important to remember)
5) Repentance in the Name of Jesus
6) Remain at Jerusalem UNTIL the Power on High comes
7) Baptism in the Holy Ghost (another thing important to remember)
Now lets look at Scripture and see if these thing EVER were passed to Gentiles:
Acts 10:10 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
So we see Peter preach to the Gentiles here (something you say he didnt do, but only to the Jews which again is wrong) and they receive the Holy Ghost and confirm it with Signs, just as Scripture says will happen for those who are doing the Great Commission. Are there are other instances of the Gentiles/Non Apostles performing baptisms, showing signs, teaching about Christ, ect?
Acts 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
Here we see Phillip who is NOT the Apostle Phillip and what do learn about him?
Acts 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
So Philip who is NOT an Apostle, preached Christ, performed miracles, baptized people, preach and baptized a Gentile yet you would want to tell me that he was NOT part of the Great Commission? Clearly he does the identical things Christ commanded, therefore we can be certain that the Great Commission was extended to him and ALL those who were spread from the 1st Church in Jerusalem outwards after the death of Stephen. The Great Commission began with the 11, then clearly extended to these 7 and as we see later continues to extend to Paul and then onto the Gentiles as it us who now do what? Preach the Gospel, baptize in the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost and are indwelled with the Holy Ghost and teach others what Christ commanded ect ect ect...
Paul who was NOT one of the 11 completely fulfills all of these exact things.
1) Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
2) Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
3) Acts 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth
4) Acts 28:3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
4 And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
5) Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
7) Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
So clearly Paul fulfilled every mark (save wait at Jerusalem) that is Commanded in the Great Commission. I mean I dont know about you but it is my lifes goal and hope to do everything contained in the Great Commission, when Christ spoke it, He spoke it personally to me. If you dont want to participate in the Great Commission then so be it, but if you are save then I know for a fact THAT will be your desire, if it isnt then well you might want to make sure that you have been Born Again and not just a believer in mind puffed up on vain knowledge as opposed to a believer from the heart. Thats between you and God tho brother. If you are looking for a verse that says Gentiles go be the Great Commission then yep its not in there, but if we simply read what Jesus Commanded, then look at the lives of those in the Bible and how we structure our walk and desire (well those who are saved at least) then it is blatantly obvious that we are all to participate in the Great Commission. I hope you dont let a systematic theology ruin your chance to participate in the most wonderful of all Commands besides Repentance unto Salvation that the Lord Jesus Christ spoke to you...
Sure its not, Philip hit every single mark of the Great Commission yet he isnt one of the 11, Paul hit every single mark of the Great Commission yet isnt one of the 11, if you get Born Again and follow Christ then you will hit all the marks, but sure brother tell yourself that you are not to partake in the Great Commission if that makes you feel better about your Theology...
Is that right, let me ask have you been on this board before? Have you and I had a discussion prior to today or maybe the one other time in the past month? Or are you going to base this opinion on the ONE conversation we had because I disagree with your Theology, gave an extensive reply to why I believe it is wrong and called you out on the fact that your opinion would essentially make you of a .0000001% of all of humanity that "correctly" divides the Word of God which is an Elitist and absurd thing to believe? I would like to know of other conversations we have had because I surely dont remember ever speaking to you...
Ha thats rich, I take it you havent actually been on these boards very long at all. You can ask anyone on here even those who vehemently disagree with me that I have over the past 9 years on this board been fully proving via the Word of God everything that I believe, state and preach. We (not you and I but the general we) may not agree on interpretations but to say I have never had to prove what I preach on this board is nonsensical. I have done it above, I gave a very detailed explanation (regardless of your opinion concerning it) of why what you said in the other Thread is incorrect and have written extensively on most every subject Biblical or Secular that is spoken about on this Board. But hey go ahead and think that because I disagree with YOU in particular that I have never had to back up my beliefs before...
I know my Bible, but lets get it straight what you really mean to say is, I would fail because I dont agree with you. According to you only you and an insanely tiny amount of people "know their Bible" and if any of us dont fall into this insanely narrow viewpoint of discerning the Word of God we actually know nothing about the Bible. Just come right out and say it, because THAT is essentially what you are saying to everyone on this Forum, and clearly are saying to me. You literally dont know ANYTHING about my position on ANY Doctrine OTHER than I dont agree with Dispensationalism and specifically above and beyond YOUR Elitist Hyper Cracked Out Version of Dispensationalism. That is ALL you know of me, yet you are saying I can not back up my beliefs and dont know the Bible. Smh, anything you say there Boss...
Anywho, are we going to continue to derail this Thread with your personal vendetta against me for daring to reject your Hyper Dispensationalism, or would you like to speak about Molinism?
Do you know what Molinism is? Are you in favor or against it? Why or why not? Do you lean more towards Calvinism or Arminianism? Why? Which one of these ideologies fits the best with your Hyper Dispensationalism?
Do us all a favor if you decided you want to continue this personal vendetta against me, start a different Thread, let us try and respect Red here and keep our posts on Topic, or I guess continue your derailment, up to you brother...
I apologize for not keeping to the subject. It was that your signature had driven me up a wall since I first saw it. I could care less about continuing this but, if you want to, start a new thread, maybe called Fundamentalism vs Dispensationalism. Or, you could go here, to the deception in the Church thread, and read my list of 40 things that are false doctrine in today's Church.They're about 2/3 of the way down on the 5th page. That should really set you off
https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/deception-in-the-church.2322/page-5
https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/deception-in-the-church.2322/page-5