Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any particular garment?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Is it moral to force men or women to wear veils or any particular garment?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cwOqKfEYTg&feature=em-subs_digest-vrecs

I ask this question, because forcing people to do so, seems to go against the notions of freedom, liberty, equality and fraternity. It is an insult to our fiduciary duty to each other.

In many countries, be it a religious, political or social custom; women and men are forced to wear particular garments, veils or beards are two examples of this.

Does this practice of using force go against our fiduciary duty to women and men?

These Golden Rules exists in most religions and cultures.

No one likes to be forced to do anything, this is irrefutable.

In some cultures, force is used to have men and women kowtow to the culture or religion. This is a poor and immoral ideology.

I believe that obliging people to submit to any political, social or religious norm, --- without a just cause, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?

Regards
DL

 

[mecca]

It's immoral to force anything on anyone. People should be able to choose what they want to wear. Many people choose to wear religious garments and that's their right. No one has the right to enforce other people to wear them though.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

It's immoral to force anything on anyone. People should be able to choose what they want to wear. Many people choose to wear religious garments and that's their right. No one has the right to enforce other people to wear them though.

What and where in either the Bible or Qur'an are religious garments suggested?

Further. I think these say that religions and spirituality are for the mind and not for the body.

John 6 ; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Clothing are cultural traditions and not religious traditions.

Am I interpreting those scriptures correctly?

Regards
DL

 

[Haich]

Can I ask why you're interested in this subject if you aren't Muslim, have no desire to follow mainstream Christianity and are happy with being a Gnostic Bishop?

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Can I ask why you're interested in this subject if you aren't Muslim, have no desire to follow mainstream Christianity and are happy with being a Gnostic Bishop?

As a free man who believes in freedom of speech, it is my first duty to try to insure that all share the freedom I have.

The limits to freedom of speech should be the narrowest standard possible and that freedom should not be hindered without a just cause.

Forcing or demanding that people do anything, like wear certain garments or grow beards, exceeds that narrow limit to freedom of speech and expression. All such constraints are an insult to freedom of thought, speech and expression.

We are no longer slaves and should not be forced to wear expressions of slavery to an ideology or religion.

Religions are to speak to our souls only and not to our bodies.

Muslims say they venerate Jesus and yet ignore his sayings.

John 6 ; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Are you a free man? What is your first duty to humanity if not to insure that all share in that freedom?

Regards
DL




Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I am not surprised that so few in this place can offer a moral judgement.

Regards
DL

 

[Glad 2 know]

Interesting topic. With all due respect I will add that forcing someone to wear anything uncomfortable/unreasonable because of beliefs that don't come from the Bible is not loving. The scripture at 1 Timothy 2:9,10 encourages women to dress appropriately, modestly and with soundness of mind. It does not only apply to women though.
God doesn't force anyone to do anything, look at the number of people that don't worship him vs the number that do. So we can see that he loves us by giving us the freedom to make our own choices. So if God doesn't force us to do anything, why do humans force others? He wants us to do things out of our own heart, not because we're being forced. Plus he wants us to feel moved to please Him, not other imperfect human beings.
That's why when Jesus came to earth, he pointed out how the religious leaders where burdening people with heavy loads that went beyond the requirements of the Law but they themselves did not budge the loads with one of their fingers. Luke 11:46
That's why when we come to know our Creator and what he requires of us, we feel compelled to be the best we can be for Him.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Interesting topic. With all due respect I will add that forcing someone to wear anything uncomfortable/unreasonable because of beliefs that don't come from the Bible is not loving. The scripture at 1 Timothy 2:9,10 encourages women to dress appropriately, modestly and with soundness of mind. It does not only apply to women though.
God doesn't force anyone to do anything, look at the number of people that don't worship him vs the number that do. So we can see that he loves us by giving us the freedom to make our own choices. So if God doesn't force us to do anything, why do humans force others? He wants us to do things out of our own heart, not because we're being forced. Plus he wants us to feel moved to please Him, not other imperfect human beings.
That's why when Jesus came to earth, he pointed out how the religious leaders where burdening people with heavy loads that went beyond the requirements of the Law but they themselves did not budge the loads with one of their fingers. Luke 11:46
That's why when we come to know our Creator and what he requires of us, we feel compelled to be the best we can be for Him.

Some Muslims try to read apparel restrictions in their holy books just as you do in yours.

Why would you think that the bible has moral authority, given that it is a book that begins with a talking serpent and donkey and is obviously a book of allegory and myth?

You do not believe in talking animals. Right?

Regards
DL

 

[Colonel Valerio]

No. It is an unnatural shame of our biological bodies. I’m not advocating nudism here but there is nothing ugly or unclean with our bodies.

Turbans aside it’s rooted in oppressing women.

Non Serviam brother Bishop, Non Serviam.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

No. It is an unnatural shame of our biological bodies. I’m not advocating nudism here but there is nothing ugly or unclean with our bodies.

Turbans aside it’s rooted in oppressing women.

Non Serviam brother Bishop, Non Serviam.

The oppression of women is standard fare for the religious. Damn their evil hearts.

Slaves live to oppress the lesser/lower slaves.

"Whoever imagines himself a favorite with God, holds other people in contempt.
Whenever a man believes that he has the exact truth from God, there is in that man no spirit of compromise.
He has not the modesty born of the imperfections of human nature; he has the arrogance of theological certainty and the tyranny born of ignorant assurance. Believing himself to be the slave of God, he imitates his master, and of all tyrants, the worst is a slave in power." --Robert Ingersoll

Regards
DL

 

[Scars512]

Well, we certainly require some clothing in our society. There are laws against nudity. There are even more stringent laws for women than men in that regard. How is requiring the breasts and genitals be covered any different than requiring the face or other parts? How we dress and what we choose to cover is based on an agreed upon moral framework for the society in which we live.

I'm certainly glad that we have laws requiring clothing. And not so much because I can't handle seeing the nude bodies of others. (Although, to be honest, the vast majority of naked bodies aren't going to be something you particularly want to see -- mine included in that). I simply can't handle the idea of having naked people touch my food or sitting on a chair naked after another naked person has sat there before me. It is a hygiene issue for me.

In my opinion, I don't think veils should be forced on women, but if a woman chooses to wear one for religious purposes, I don't think it should be banned either. I mean forcing a woman to show her face is just as abusive as forcing a woman to cover it. We ought to be able decide (within some basic agreed upon limits) exactly how much skin we are willing to show. I personally wear practically a burkini when I am at the beach. My decision to do that is not religious but is based on my fair skin and an allergy to sunscreen, so I have to stay covered up to prevent sunburn. But I've seen people get bent out of shape over women wearing a burkini at the beach when they wouldn't have a problem with my outfit or a nun wearing a habit. If the outrage is only reserved for a particular religion's garments -- it is fueled by bigotry and not some strong desire to "liberate" women from oppression.

 

[Scars512]

The oppression of women is standard fare for the religious. Damn their evil hearts.

Slaves live to oppress the lesser/lower slaves.

"Whoever imagines himself a favorite with God, holds other people in contempt.
Whenever a man believes that he has the exact truth from God, there is in that man no spirit of compromise.
He has not the modesty born of the imperfections of human nature; he has the arrogance of theological certainty and the tyranny born of ignorant assurance. Believing himself to be the slave of God, he imitates his master, and of all tyrants, the worst is a slave in power." --Robert Ingersoll

Regards
DL

Not every religious person believes this, though. I'm a Christian -- but I don't believe we are the chosen people of God. In fact, I've always been taught that God chooses everyone. What makes you a Christian is that you choose God. It is your choice that matters (since we have free will). I know some denominations believe in pre-destination and all that, but not every single one. But it irks me when I see other people constantly claiming Christians believe this or that as if we are a monolithic unit that possesses some type of hive mind. People who toss about statements that paint billions of people with a broad brush are no different than people who throw out racial stereotypes as if they are absolute facts.

I see dogmatic atheists and dogmatic religious fanatics as nothing more than two sides of the same coin. Both are convinced they are right and are not able to brook any views that challenge that notion.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Well, we certainly require some clothing in our society. There are laws against nudity. There are even more stringent laws for women than men in that regard. How is requiring the breasts and genitals be covered any different than requiring the face or other parts? How we dress and what we choose to cover is based on an agreed upon moral framework for the society in which we live.

I'm certainly glad that we have laws requiring clothing. And not so much because I can't handle seeing the nude bodies of others. (Although, to be honest, the vast majority of naked bodies aren't going to be something you particularly want to see -- mine included in that). I simply can't handle the idea of having naked people touch my food or sitting on a chair naked after another naked person has sat there before me. It is a hygiene issue for me.

In my opinion, I don't think veils should be forced on women, but if a woman chooses to wear one for religious purposes, I don't think it should be banned either. I mean forcing a woman to show her face is just as abusive as forcing a woman to cover it. We ought to be able decide (within some basic agreed upon limits) exactly how much skin we are willing to show. I personally wear practically a burkini when I am at the beach. My decision to do that is not religious but is based on my fair skin and an allergy to sunscreen, so I have to stay covered up to prevent sunburn. But I've seen people get bent out of shape over women wearing a burkini at the beach when they wouldn't have a problem with my outfit or a nun wearing a habit. If the outrage is only reserved for a particular religion's garments -- it is fueled by bigotry and not some strong desire to "liberate" women from oppression.

Irrelevant because if women are just ignored when their religious men abuse them, then we are not doing our duty to our citizens by allowing it.

What is your duty to those who are forced to be slaves to their religions and husbands?

Why should free people just sit back and have immoral men show their immoral power against our female citizens?

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

What makes you a Christian is that you choose God.

Hogwash. Your bible says god chooses who he will give his grace to believe and who he will dent that grace to.

Read your bible for Christ's sake.

Both are convinced they are right and are not able to brook any views that challenge that notion.

Correct. It is demonstrable that one ideology is based on reality while the other is based on fantasy.

Which school do you think is closer to the truth?

Regards
DL

 

[Scars512]

Hogwash. Your bible says god chooses who he will give his grace to believe and who he will dent that grace to.

Read your bible for Christ's sake.



Correct. It is demonstrable that one ideology is based on reality while the other is based on fantasy.

Which school do you think is closer to the truth?

Regards
DL

Actually, that belief is only found in certain sects of Christianity. It really isn't universal. The Old Testament clearly states that God favors his chosen people -- the Jews. However, the New Testament says that Christ changed that. "For ye are all the the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." -- Galatians 3: 26 - 29. So, if you accept Christ, you belong to God. The doors are open for anyone -- not just a "chosen few". Whether you can enter or not is based upon the choice you make to believe or not. That is not predestination. That is a result of a choice you make. So, yes, I have read my bible. As you well know, the differences in denominations really boils down to interpretation -- not that one has or has not read portions of it.

Obviously, being a Christian, I think that the belief is God is closer to the truth or I would not believe it. My point is merely that someone who is CERTAIN and WITHOUT DOUBT that God exists is no different than an atheist who is CERTAIN and WITHOUT DOUBT that God does not exists. If we are being intellectually honest -- as I believe we always should be -- NONE of us can answer that question with certainty. Can I prove that God exists through the scientific method? No. But the absence of proof is not the proof of absence. I'm perfectly at peace with you choosing not to believe. All I ask is that you respect my right to choose to believe. My point was that both fanatical Christians and fanatical atheists are so intent of forcing other people to accept their beliefs that they basically are guilty of the same bad behavior. Your comments kind of prove that point.

 

[DesertRose]

Just dropped in for a sec, this might be an interesting video for the fairer posters.
Dressing modesty is beautiful and honorable in my opinion and as @mecca stated people should not be forced one way or the other.
Dialogue always works better than blind judgement and bigoted stereotyping.
Egyptian women choose the veil

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Actually, that belief is only found in certain sects of Christianity. It really isn't universal. The Old Testament clearly states that God favors his chosen people -- the Jews. However, the New Testament says that Christ changed that. "For ye are all the the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." -- Galatians 3: 26 - 29. So, if you accept Christ, you belong to God. The doors are open for anyone -- not just a "chosen few". Whether you can enter or not is based upon the choice you make to believe or not. That is not predestination. That is a result of a choice you make. So, yes, I have read my bible. As you well know, the differences in denominations really boils down to interpretation -- not that one has or has not read portions of it.

Obviously, being a Christian, I think that the belief is God is closer to the truth or I would not believe it. My point is merely that someone who is CERTAIN and WITHOUT DOUBT that God exists is no different than an atheist who is CERTAIN and WITHOUT DOUBT that God does not exists. If we are being intellectually honest -- as I believe we always should be -- NONE of us can answer that question with certainty. Can I prove that God exists through the scientific method? No. But the absence of proof is not the proof of absence. I'm perfectly at peace with you choosing not to believe. All I ask is that you respect my right to choose to believe. My point was that both fanatical Christians and fanatical atheists are so intent of forcing other people to accept their beliefs that they basically are guilty of the same bad behavior. Your comments kind of prove that point.

Atheists do not use inquisitions and jihads due to not having good moral tenets to sell their views by.

Stop making foolish inapplicable comparisons as atheists can prove their point while you cannot.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Dialogue always works better than blind judgement and bigoted stereotyping.

True. But you cannot get honest discussions from idol worshiping fools and hypocrites.

They are always hiding decent discussions behind their supernatural shield.

Dumb is as dumb does.

Regards
DL

 

[DesertRose]

"There is no one to share His dominion, nor does He take an aide or supporter from His creatures. He is nearer to man than man's own jugular vein." (Al-Qur'an 50:16)
Enjoy this video. Bye.
5 Misconceptions about God اللّٰه

 

[Lisa]

Works never works unless God planned it. People can wear whatever headgear they want but that doesn’t make them holy or pleasing to the one true God. Forcing people to wear headgear also doesn’t make the forcer or the victim holy either.