Is God Particular?

[elsbet]

This is the crux...

Reconciliation to God is a process.

That is a lie.
Reconciliation to God is not a process.

Spoiler: Reconciled - Romans 5

Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life! Not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Spoiler: Reconciled - 1 Corinthians 5

All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s trespasses against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

The bottom line is you are going out of your way to make God appear less accessible to those who do not believe, by portraying Him and the finished work of Christ, as something they are NOT.

We have been reconciled to God through the work of the cross-- God has done ALL THE WORK to reconcile us to Himself, already. The blood of Christ paid that debt in full.

Spoiler: FAITH (the yielded believer)

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people.
In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it.
The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).

-

 

[Bubbajay]

Yes there is a whole theread on hell that shows biblically when people will get punished and its not right now is it? Not according to God's Word.

Where have I quoted Ellen G white in anything I've posted here? I've quoted the Bible only and shown you directly what it says about God being particular about obedience. So how has she come up at all in all of this? The only reason I can think of is that you have nothing to add to this discussion (that you started with me by the way) and have resorted to to this immature tactic. Its been used a few times on me and it does not work. It won't stop me from telling God's truth. Satan too uses such tactics but God's truth always spreads no matter how hard he tries to stop it.

And just because you say the SDA's are wrong doesn't make you right does it? They are right about God being particular, obedience to all God's commandments not just nine of them, about faith and works and more because that is what the Bible teaches whether you agree with them or not as I've shown you from the Bible. And I do know the difference between God's Word and Ellen G White so please don't patronise me and take me for a fool do you understand?

Anyway I doubt you know much about SDA's or Ellen G White for that matter that is why all you've posted is completely false. Ellen G White never placed her writings on par with the Bible itself and you would know that if you'd read any of her writings. She referred to her writings as the “lesser light” intended by God to lead men and women to the “greater light” of the Bible. The Bible is and always will be the standard of truth and the basic guide of life. No other message or writings can ever take the place of the word of God. It is the standard by which all who claim to have truth are to be tested. Throughout her writings, Ellen White fully recognized and emphasised the primacy of the Scriptures. Two brief, comprehensive sentences from the introduction to The Great Controversy, her most famous book state her view succinctly: “The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience.” In all her writings she always quoted the Bible.

Also in order to know if a person is/was affiliated with freemasonry we don't look at symbols on their grave sites that were put there after they died, we look at how they lived and what they taught. Ellen White did not teach masonic doctrine at all. She constantly indicted freemasons and secret societies in her writings. Each time she mentions them, she basically says that those who belong to such orders will be lost. Nobody should assume without proof that she was a freemason solely because she has an obelisk on her grave. Obelisks were a standard for gravestones during the time she lived. In fact, they represented one of the cheaper options. Read more about gravestone use in the US here, Association for Gravestone Studies.


I've clearly shown you that I don't believe in works salvation as taught in the Bible and I found out this truth in the SDA Chruch. So you insisting that they believe in works salvation does not make it the truth does it? The truth of God's Word is what matters here not what you think about SDA's or me.

As for SDA's being a pseudo Christian cult, do you have proof? What makes them a cult? Please share more information (with actual proof) because clearly you seem to know more than me who comes from an SDA background.

Its sad that you chose to resort to such behaviour because its immature. Do you think I haven't noticed how you've chosen to bow out of this discussion? If you had nothing to say, you should have just kept quiet. Goodbye.

Its obvious you know nothing about the chastening of the Lord, read about it in hebrews. It says if a believer doesn't receive chastening in this life they're bastards, meaning the Spirit of God is not with them.

Yes White claims her writings are on par with the apostles, even giving your own writings the title "lesser light" is blasphemous, especially when they were received by devils via automatic writing. Yes I've read some of her writings, she claimed when Jesus would return he'd return through the constellation Orion, Orion is significant in the occult. Where does the bible mention Orion?

Yes you 100% teach works based salvation. You clearly stated that our works have a say in our eternal destination. You also claimed reconciliation is a process, and a process always denotes works. You're a heretic.

SDA also teaches that keeping the Saturday Sabbath is nesessary for salvation, and that the a Sunday Sabbath law is the mark of the beast. No wonder you believe what you do. You're part of a pseudo Christian cult founded by freemasons just like the Mormon church.

 

[phipps]

@Lyfe,

The law of commandments will never become unimportant or irrelevant. They give us the knowledge of sin and act as a light in deep darkness. The whole duty of man is to fear God and keep his commandments.

True.

That being said I really believe its important to regard the law of commandments in its proper place and through the light of the new covenant. The old covenant focused on the law of commandments, but in the new covenant we have something far greater - the holy spirit.

The Holy Spirit existed in the Old Covenant. It has always existed and is what led people to choose God and obey Him. The Holy Spirit did not just appear in the New Covenant. Don't forget the Holy Spirit is God and has always existed and worked for the salvation of man too. Here a few verses in the Old Testament about the Holy Spirit: 2 Samuel 23:2, Isaiah 63:10-14, Psalms 104:30, 139:7. He is not spoken much of in the Old Testament but many times the Holy Spirit is hinted about.

God gave us a new heart made in the likeness of his own and came to dwell within us by his spirit. I really believe that we have to be careful to not give glory or preminance to something that was superseded by the glory of the ministration of the spirit. We were given the spirit to freely know the things of God, we have the mind of Christ. The law is a tutor, but in Christ we have the spirit.

We are led to Christ by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit works within us as we grow in our faith and character changes changes into the likeness of Christ. It also leads us to obey God's commandments. As I posted in a previous post above God's people are commandment keeping people and its God who gives and grows our faith and the powere to obey. I'll post on this later.

Paul said as many as are led by the spirit of God are the sons of God and if we are led by the spirit we are not under the law.

Yes Paul said that but He also said in Romans 6:15, "What then? Shall we sin (break the law) because we are not under law but under grace?" His answer in the same verse was "Certainly not!" In the strongest possible language, Paul states that being under grace does not give us license to break the law. In Romans 3:19 Paul said, "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." Here Paul equates being under the law with being "guilty before God." In other words, those who are under the law are guilty of breaking it and are under the condemnation of it. This is why Christians are not under it. They are not breaking it, they're not guilty and condemned by it. Therefore, they are not under it but, rather, are under the power of grace instead. Later in his argument, Paul points out that the power of grace is greater than the power of sin. This is why he states so emphatically, "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace." Grace overrules the authority of sin, giving power to obey God's law. When we have grace, we have faith, we love God and are loyal to Him so naturally we obey Him.

This is exactly what I posted to you in the other thread.

In the new testament Paul always referenced and gave preminance to the holy spirit and his ability to give life and effect true change in the life of the saint. He emphasized that the law profited nothing.

Actually Paul emphasised and gave prominence to Christ who sacrificed Himself on our behalf. When Paul wrote about the law in context to Christian conduct, he said we had to obey the law and it was valid. For example, when Paul listed the various forms of human wickedness in 1 Timothy 1:8-10, he said, "We know that the law is good" (verse 8). The law on it own profits nothing. We have to have faith that comes to us from God in order to obey the law.

I really believe we as the saints of God ought to do the same, to recognize the superiority of Gods life giving spirit over the law. The holy spirit gives life and brings change, he leads and teaches.

You're wrong on this. The Holy Spirit leads us to obey because its the law the points out how sinful we are. It leads to us repent and turn away from our sinful lives and to change gradually and to walk on the right path to heaven to be with God forever. None of this can be done without obedience to God. That is why the Bible says in Revelation 14:12, “Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”

The holy spirit is GOD in us. The law does none of these things. The law of commandments told me and reminded me of the sin i had in my life. It was Gods spirit that changed me and gave me a new heart to acctually know God, a heart that by nature desires the things of the spirit.

The Holy Spirit leads us to Christ and His Truth, "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment" (John 16:7-8).

Yes the law shows us what sin is and in order not to sin again we must obey them. Why? Because love for God produces fruits of obedience. The Holy Spirit is promised to those who seek to live in harmony with God’s Word and we cannot live in harmony with God's Word while wilfully breaking the law. If we desire the things of the Spirit, obeying God is one of them. We cannot skip obedience as true Christians I'm afraid.

The law wasnt made for the righteous person or those in the beloved, because those in Christ have the spirit who is greater than the law. Paul told the Corinthians to examine themselves to see whether or not Jesus Christ was truly in them(through the spirit) because he believed they shouldnt need rebuke for things they should already be keen to through the spirit.

The law was made for everyone that even Christ who was sinless obeyed it while on this earth and hence why He was the only human never to sin.

He had to use the law which shoulsnt be neccesary for a child of God with the spirit. This is why Paul says the law was not made for the righteous person, but rather those without. In Christ we should have and be led by the spirit. I really believe that we ought to acknowledge the superiority and preminance of the spirit over the law. Paul did.

You have gravely misunderstood Paul. Paul taught that the law should be obeyed but obeying it would not save us. Rather we obey because we are saved. Because we are under grace and no longer slaves to sin. The Holy Spirit does not do away with the law, It leads us to obey it.

 

[Bubbajay]

This is the crux...


That is a lie.
Reconciliation to God is not a process.

Spoiler: Reconciled - Romans 5

Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life! Not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Spoiler: Reconciled - 1 Corinthians 5

All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s trespasses against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

The bottom line is you are going out of your way to make God appear less accessible to those who do not believe, by portraying Him and the finished work of Christ, as something they are NOT.

We have been reconciled to God through the work of the cross-- God has done ALL THE WORK to reconcile us to Himself, already. The blood of Christ paid that debt in full.

Spoiler: FAITH (the yielded believer)

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people.
In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it.
The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).

-

The bible defines faith, and it is trust. Faith comes by hearing the gospel, which is the power of God. It defines it in verse 1 and 6


Hebrews11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

 

[Lyfe]

@Lyfe,


True.


The Holy Spirit existed in the Old Covenant. It has always existed and is what led people to choose God and obey Him. The Holy Spirit did not just appear in the New Covenant. Don't forget the Holy Spirit is God and has always existed and worked for the salvation of man too. Here a few verses in the Old Testament about the Holy Spirit: 2 Samuel 23:2, Isaiah 63:10-14, Psalms 104:30, 139:7. He is not spoken much of in the Old Testament but many times the Holy Spirit is hinted about.


We are led to Christ by the Holy Spirit. the Holy Spirit works within us as we grow in our faith and character changes changes into the likeness of Christ. It also leads us to obey God's commandments. As I posted in a previous post above God's people are commandment keeping people and its God who gives and grows our faith and the powere to obey. I'll post on this later.


Yes Paul said that but He also said in Romans 6:15, "What then? Shall we sin (break the law) because we are not under law but under grace?" His answer in the same verse was "Certainly not!" In the strongest possible language, Paul states that being under grace does not give us license to break the law. In Romans 3:19 Paul said, "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." Here Paul equates being under the law with being "guilty before God." In other words, those who are under the law are guilty of breaking it and are under the condemnation of it. This is why Christians are not under it. They are not breaking it, theyare not guilty and condemned by it. Therefore, they are not under it but, rather, are under the power of grace instead. Later in his argument, Paul points out that the power of grace is greater than the power of sin. This is why he states so emphatically, "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace." Grace overrules the authority of sin, giving power to obey God's law. When we have grace, we have faith, we love God and are loyal to Him so naturally we obey Him.

This is exactly what I posted to you in the other thread.


Actaully Paul emphaised and gave prominence to Christ who sacrificed Himself on our behalf. When Paul wrote about the law in context to Christian conduct, he said we had to bey the law and it was valid. For example, when Paul listed the various forms of human wickedness in 1 Timothy 1:8-10, he said, "We know that the law is good" (verse 8). The law on it own profits nothing. We have to have faith that comes to us from God in order to obey the law.


You'r wrong on this. The Holy Spirit leasds us to obey because its the law the points oout how sinful we are. It leads to repent and turn away from our sinful lives and to change gradually and to walk on the right path to heaven to be with God forever. None of this can be done with obedience to God. That is why the Bible says in Revelation 14:12, “Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”


The Bible does not say that the Holy Spirit is God in us. The Holy Spirit leads us to Christ and His Truth, "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment" (John 16:7-8).

Yes the law shows us what sin is and in order not to sin again we must obey them. Why? Because love for God produces fruits of obedience. The Holy Spirit is promised to those who seek to live in harmony with God’s Word and we cannot live in harmony with God's Word while wilfully breaking the law. If we desire the things of the Spirit, obeying God is one of them. We cannot skip obedience as true Christians I'm afraid.


The law was made for everyone that even Christ who was sinless obeyed while on this earth and hence why He was the only human never to sin.


You have gravely misunderstood Paul. Paul taught that the law should be obeyed but obeying it would not save us. Rather we obey because we are saved. Because we are under grace and no longer slaves to sin. The Holy Spirit does not do away with the law, It leads us to obey it.

The law of commandments was a shadow that tesitifed of the reality, but was never the reality in itself. The reality is Christ. Your mindset is that the holy spirit gives us the power to keep the law when in actuality the holy spirit and regeneration is to make us into new creatures in Christ. It was to completely change our nature. You need to view the old covenant in light of the new one, not vice versa. The holy spirit wasnt given to us to obey the law. He was given to us to change our nature. What good is the law for someone who is born again and regenerate, to someone with a new nature? The law was just there until the fullness of the time of reformation(Hebrews 9). The law was never the reality. It was a mere shadow that testified of the reality.

You are in essence building up again what was torn down and making yourself a transgressor all over again(Galatiana 2:18). Under the light of the law you can only be a sinner and law breaker, nothing more. You are under obligation to keep it without fail and if you fail in one jot then you are in essence breaking all the law. You cant pick and choose which parts to keep and that even applies to you. The law works wrath and the the power of sin is the law. You rebuild the law and you only make yourself a transgressor all over again and you are under obligation to keep THE WHOLE law. If you sin once you break the entire law. Why are you promoting the law when you dont even keep it?

 

[elsbet]

The bible defines faith, and it is trust. Faith comes by hearing the gospel, which is the power of God. It defines it in verse 1 and 6


Hebrews11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Indeed... if you would like to read further on those, in case I didn't link above-- here is the --> LINK

 

[phipps]

That is a lie.
Reconciliation to God is not a process.

What is with all the spoilers that are not really spoilers. Just say it directly, I prefer it that way.

I don't deny the scripture you've posted truth but does that mean we are fully reconciled to God? No! As we are sanctified and our faith grows and walk in His precepts the the closer we get to God. And the process can be stopped too if we choose to walk away like king Saul did. The reconciliation will be complete only when Christ returns the second time and His people will be with Him forever. That is also the truth of the Bible.

The bottom line is you are going out of your way to make God appear less accessible to those who do not believe, by portraying Him and the finished work of Christ, as something they are NOT.

You're the one who is misunderstanding me I'm afraid. When we come to Christ we are spiritually immature and then as we are sanctified and grow in Christ our relationship becomes more mature. How does that make God less accessible to those who do not believe? God is accessible to all of us at any time but you can't compare a new Christian to one who has been a Christian for years. I'm talking about those who have a true relationship with God. And its these mature Christians who can teach and help the new Christians in Christ.

We have been reconciled to God through the work of the cross-- God has done ALL THE WORK to reconcile us to Himself, already. The blood of Christ paid that debt in full.

When Christ said, "It is finished" it didn mean all He had to do for mankind was finished. It meant the part of sacrificing Himself for us was finished. But Christ still had/has work to do in the heavenly sanctuary on behalf of repentant sinners as the Bible teaches especially in the book of Hebrews. He moved into the heavenly sanctually to continue work there as our High Priest. Hebrews 7:25 says, "Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." Making intercession means Christ goes before the Father and pleads on our behalf when we choose to come to Him and repent.

Faith

(4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people.
In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it.

I agree. Faith and everything else involved with faith is a gift from God.

The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4)

True and part of the persuasion of His will is obedience.

 

[Bubbajay]

Indeed... if you would like to read further on those, in case I didn't link above-- here is the --> LINK

I was just wanting to post the biblical definition. Sometimes they differ a bit from definitions from other sources. It mentions confidence isn't the total meaning, when confidence and trust are the same thing in reality.

 

[Bubbajay]

What is with all the spoilers that are not really spoilers. Just say it directly, I prefer it that way.

I don't deny the scripture you've posted truth but does that mean we are fully reconciled to God? No! As we are sanctified and our faith grows and walk in His precepts the the closer we get to God. And the process can be stopped too if we choose to walk away like king Saul did. The reconciliation will be complete only when Christ returns the second time and His people will be with Him forever. That is also the truth of the Bible.


You're the one who is misunderstanding me I'm afraid. When we come to Christ we are spiritually immature and then as we are sanctified and grow in Christ our relationship becomes more mature. How does that make God less accessible to those who do not believe? God is accessible to all of us at any time but you can't compare a new Christian to one who has been a Christian for years. I'm talking about those who have a true relationship with God. And its these mature Christians who can teach and help the new Christians in Christ.



When Christ said, "It is finished" it didn mean all He had to do for mankind was finished. It meant the part of sacrificing Himself for us was finished. But Christ still had/has work to do in the heavenly sanctuary on behalf of repentant sinners as the Bible teaches especially in the book of Hebrews. He moved into the heavenly sanctually to continue work there as our High Priest. Hebrews 7:25 says, "Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." Making intercession means Christ goes before the Father and pleads on our behalf when we choose to come to Him and repent.


I agree. Faith and everything else involved with faith is a gift from God.


True and part of the persuasion of His will is obedience.

Always mixing faith with obediance. We are only justified by obediance/works in the eyes of man, since man cannot see another mans heart. God knows our hearts, and doesn't need proof of our faith.

 

[phipps]

@Lyfe

The law of commandments was a shadow that tesitifed of the reality, but was never the reality in itself. The reality is Christ. Your mindset is that the holy spirit gives us the power to keep the law when in actuality the holy spirit and regeneration is to make us into new creatures in Christ. It was to completely change our nature.

We cannot be regenerated by the Holy Spirit and become new creatures in Christ while not obeying the law. Paul said in Romans 3:31, "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law” The Bible teaches that grace is like a governor’s pardon to a prisoner. It forgives him, but it does not give him the freedom to break another law as I explained to you in the other thread. The forgiven person, living under grace, will actually want to keep God’s law in his or her gratitude for salvation. A person who refuses to keep God’s law, saying that he is living under grace, is sorely mistaken.

You need to view the old covenant in light of the new one, not vice versa.

Why do you think that obedience is an Old Covenant concept only. Obedience is very much an essential part of the New Covenant as well. A saving faith is a faith that is demonstrated in obedience.

The holy spirit wasnt given to us to obey the law. He was given to us to change our nature.

I have not implied that the Holy Spirit is given to us to obey the law. The Holy Spirit works out in our life the characteristics of Jesus Christ and part of that is obedience. When Jesus was on earth He was fully obedient that He never sinned. He is our example.

What good is the law for someone who is born again and regenerate, to someone with a new nature?

Part of changing our nature and becoming like Christ is obedience. There are other aspects but obedience is one of them. This, none of us can escape. In fact the Bible says, "And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him” (Acts 5:32). So the Holy Spirit leads us to conversion, leads us to realise we are sinful and starts regenerating our hearts so that we are willing to obey God. The Holy Spirit then leads us to obey God and as we obey, we are sanctified (ongoing process) and enabled to be even more obedient which is essential for our growth.

The law was just there until the fullness of the time of reformation(Hebrews 9). The law was never the reality. It was a mere shadow that testified of the reality.

No and I'm afraid you've completely misunderstood Hebrews 9 which is about the heavenly sanctuary and Christ as our High Priest and Mediator there. That process all began when Christ sacrificed himself to bear our sins on our behalf.

The law is reality and do you remember what Jesus said about it? He said, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled" (Matthew 5:17-18). Jesus asserted that He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill (or keep) it. Instead of doing away with the law, Jesus magnified it as the perfect guide for holy living. He said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15). So the law is not a mere shadow, not according to the Bible.

You are in essence building up again what was torn down and making yourself a transgressor all over again(Galatiana 2:18). Under the light of the law you can only be a sinner and law breaker, nothing more. You are under obligation to keep it without fail and if you fail in one jot then you are in essence breaking all the law.

You have misunderstood the Bible on obedience. When you're under grace its not an obligation to obey the law nor should it feel like that. Its a pleasure to obedient because you're grateful to Christ who has redeemed you. You love him, have faith in Him and obeying Him is not burdensome. "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).

You cant pick and choose which parts to keep and that even applies to you.

No one should pick and choose what to obey from God's commands. We should obey it all.

The law works wrath and the the power of sin is the law.

Where in the Bible does it say the law works wrath and the power of sin is law? Can you please show me those passages from the Bible?

You rebuild the law and you only make yourself a transgressor all over again and you are under obligation to keep THE WHOLE law. If you sin once you break the entire law. Why are you promoting the law when you dont even keep it?

Again you do not understand what the Bible teaches about obedience. God does not expect us to be perfect immediately after we come to Him but He expects us to be willing to obey and to submit to Him. We give God consent to do His Work in us through the Holy Spirit. As we grow in Christ and become more obedient we sin less and less but we will sin here and there in our Christian journey. That is where we confess our sins to God and ask Him to forgive us. Complete obedience is not something that happens overnight that is for sure. Its a process as I explained above.

I'm sorry but I had other things to do so I could not respond to you immediately. I hope you study the Bible on this subject because obedience is essential to us being saved. That is truth of God's Word. This doesn't mean I'm there yet because I'm not but that should not stop me from telling the truth of God. God bless.

 

[Bubbajay]

There's no such thing as a "saving faith" that involves obedience or works.


Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work

 

[elsbet]

I was just wanting to post the biblical definition. Sometimes they differ a bit from definitions from other sources. It mentions confidence isn't the total meaning, when confidence and trust are the same thing in reality.

The concordance at biblehub.com isn't a "dictionary"-- and the post is not defining faith in a general sense. It is specific to the context in the bible.

It says the Faith given by God is distinct from (our) human belief or confidence-- yet involves it.

Spoiler: distinct

If something is distinct from something else of the same type, it is different or separate from it.

And it is distinct-- the Faith given to us by God should not be confused with the trust or confidence we have in Him.

Faith "...is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people."

https://biblehub.com/greek/4102.htm

If you want to discuss further, I'll make a new thread-- or you can-- so this thread isn't further derailed.
-

 

[phipps]

God Requires Total Obedience

Every part of God’s law needs to be obeyed. Partial obedience is rebellion. James makes it clear that the Ten Commandments in its entirety will be the law applied in the final Judgment. “For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, ‘Do not commit adultery, also said, ‘Do not murder.’ Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty” (James 2:10-12). The Ten Commandments (not nine of them!) will be the standard in the judgment. We will be judged by this “law of liberty.”

The Bible is the map—a guidebook with all the instructions, warnings, and information on how to safely reach that kingdom.To disregard any of it leads us away from God and His kingdom. The universe of God is one of law and order—including natural, moral, and spiritual. Breaking any of these laws has fixed consequences. If the Bible had not been given, people would have sooner or later discovered, by trial and error, that the great principles of the Bible exist and are true. When ignored, they result in sickness, torment, and unhappiness of every kind. Thus, the words of the Bible are not merely advice that we can accept or ignore without consequences. The Bible even tells what these consequences are and explains how to avoid them. A person cannot live any way he wishes and still become Christlike—any more than a builder can ignore the blueprints for a house without running into trouble. This is why God wants us to follow the blueprint of Holy Scripture. There is no other way to become like Him and, thus, be fitted for a place in His kingdom. There is simply no other way to true happiness.

Obedience is the highest form of worship, “To obey is better than sacrifice” (I Samuel 15:22). John, the apostle of love, has strong words regarding God’s law. “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (I John 2:3-4).

Obedience develops Christian character. The Bible teaches that true love to God doesn’t really exist without obedience. Nor can a person be truly obedient without a love and appreciation for God. So obedience is evidence of our love for the Lord and our concern for our fellow men. True love and obedience are like conjoined twins. When separated, they die. Obedience demonstrates the power of Christ to transform lives, and therefore strengthens Christian witness.

 

[phipps]

Faith and Obedience.

Biblically obedience is a result of faith. God does not ask obedience without conviction, without foundation on faith.

“In order to stand fast in the truth we need to have a living, active faith in God and his Word. Without such faith it is impossible to please God; for ‘whatsoever is not of faith is sin,.” Obedience without faith is sin (Romans 14:23).

Faithless obedience often results in pride, self-exaltation, and comparison to other human beings.

“The faith that is required is not a mere assent to doctrines; it is the faith that works by love and purifies the soul. Humility, meekness, and obedience are not faith, but they are the effects, or fruits, of faith.” SW.

God wants obedience for the right reasons. He asks His children to obey His commandments because they believe, trust, that He implemented these commandments and guidelines for their own good. Not because others are watching, not because it will make them look good in the church, not to brag or to “earn the right” to pass judgment on others. But because obedience is pleasing to God. To be acceptable in heaven’s sight, this obedience must be motivated by faith—trust in and love of God.

When the life of the Christian has been transformed there will be visible changes in lifestyle, and they will yearn to share their experience and to bring others to Christ so they too may experience His life-changing power.

But how does a Christian experience this transformation? Through faith in God and daily choices. Conviction of principles and outward signs of faith rarely happen in a day. They are the result of small choices every day. Every day we are given the opportunity to choose faith-based obedience.

“Implicit trust in God's power to save, and its effect on the life and character, do not come in a moment. These heavenly graces are acquired by the experience of years. By a life of holy endeavour and firm adherence to the right, the people of God seal their destiny,” SW.

May God give us grace and strength every day to obey Him by faith.

 

[Bubbajay]

The concordance at biblehub.com isn't a "dictionary"-- and the post is not defining faith in a general sense. It is specific to the context in the bible.

It says the Faith given by God is distinct from (our) human belief or confidence-- yet involves it.

Spoiler: distinct

If something is distinct from something else of the same type, it is different or separate from it.

And it is distinct-- the Faith given to us by God should not be confused with the trust or confidence we have in Him.

Faith "...is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people."

https://biblehub.com/greek/4102.htm

If you want to discuss further, I'll make a new thread-- or you can-- so this thread isn't further derailed.
-

I disagree that faith is a gift from God, that view sounds like Calvinism. Anyways no need to make a thread. The bible says grace is a gift from God, and that faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Hearing the gospel preached draws people to him.

 

[Lyfe]

We cannot be regenerated by the Holy Spirit and become new creatures in Christ while not obeying the law.

This is completely false and unbiblical. Spiritual rebirth and regeneration is a result of salvation and coming to Christ. You dont get regenerated while obeying the law. You dont receive the holy spirit and become regenerated for obeying the law. It is something that happens at the very moment of salvation when one receives Christ and becomes born again. If this is what you believe then you are deceived.

This is all the more I will entertain this thread though. I have spent more than enough time engaging in subjects like this.

 

[phipps]

We cannot be regenerated by the Holy Spirit and become new creatures in Christ while not obeying the law.

This is completely false and unbiblical. Spiritual rebirth and regeneration is a result of salvation and coming to Christ. You dont get regenerated while obeying the law. You dont receive the holy spirit and become regenerated for obeying the law. It is something that happens at the very moment of salvation when one receives Christ and becomes born again. If this is what you believe then you are deceived.

This is all the more I will entertain this thread though. I have spent more than enough time engaging in subjects like this.

It is Biblical if you read most of what the Bible says on obedience. I posted this scripture in my previous response post to you, "And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him” (Acts 5:32). Do you disagree with this?

The Bible tells us, "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment" (John 16:8). So the Holy Spirit will convict us of what is wrong, and right. He will also impress on us of the consequences of our choices and judgement. That leads us to repent and start obeying God. Choosing to obey God gives Christ consent to work in us and change us from the inside out so that we have Christ like characteristics.

John 14:26, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." The Holy Spirit teaches us all things about living the Christian life, and brings all things to our remembrance what Jesus has taught and part of that is obedience. Our responsibility is to flood our minds with the truths of God’s word so that the Holy Spirit can bring it back as is needed.

You cannot take obedience out of the salvation equation I'm afraid. The Bible is absolutely clear about that. “If you love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15).

Only the obedient will make it to the New Kingdom and be with Christ forever.

“If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17).

“He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him” (Hebrews 5:9).

God does not promise eternal life to those who merely make a profession of faith or are church members or are baptized, but rather to those who do His will, which is revealed in Scripture. Of course, this obedience is possible only through Christ.

This is the unaltered truth of the Bible. God bless.

 

[Lyfe]

The holy spirit fell upon the gentiles as they heard the word of God and believed. I would refer you back to when Peter witnessed to Cornelius and the gentiles. You really believe that the gentiles who came to Christ and later brought the gospel to the rest of the world knew or kept the law before hearing the gospel and getting saved? They were lost and living in sin.

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Galatians 3:2

You are wrong and have your understanding of salvation backwards.

 

[Lyfe]

I would encourage you to do a study on regeneration and what it is. Not only regeneration, but covenant theology and the faithfulness God promised to David. God promised to punish and chastise David if he went astray, but to also never remove his love toward him.


Your theology teaches that we work synergistically in compliance to God by the help of the holy spirit. Salvation is an act of God that changes someone at the very core of their nature. Desires to obey and please God dont even come from you. They are God given and a result of being changed inwardly by the holy ghost. If you had not been changed you would have zero desire for the things of God or to live a Godly life. You dont comply with them. Therefore its important to acknowledge those desires for what they are and who they come from and not attribute them to something within yourself that lead you to work with God.

They are a part of you in your very nature and a result of being regenerated. God has removed your heart of stone and replaced it with a completely new heart to know him, he has put his spirit within you. You are a new man. A new creature. You have a new nature. This is what results in your new attitude toward sin and God, and as a result you do the things of God. You dont comply with your own nature. You do according to it, because its your nature.

 

[phipps]

@Lyfe

The holy spirit fell upon the gentiles as they heard the word of God and believed. I would refer you back to when Peter witnessed to Cornelius and the gentiles. You really believe that the gentiles who came to Christ and later brought the gospel to the rest of the world knew or kept the law before hearing the gospel and getting saved? They were lost and living in sin.

You continually misunderstand me because you don't understand the subject at hand. I'm talking about people who are convicted and have chosen to come to Christ and submit to Him. Of course before the Gentiles found Christ they were living in sin and not keeping the law. I won't deny that. But after they were convicted by the Holy Spirit and found Christ, the Holy Spirit started the job of fully converting them from the inside out.

Cornelius had already been converted but like all of us the Holy was leading him to more of God's truths even before Peter witnessed to them for the Bible tells us, "There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always” (Acts 10:1-2). Now the Bible doesn't tell us how Cornelius came to be a devout man but it wasn't through Peter.

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Galatians 3:2

No one receives the spirit by the works of the law. Good works which obedience is part of are out of love for God because we are saved through Christ's grace. I've never implied otherwise and it would be against the Word of God.

What does hearing of faith mean biblically then? Romans 10:17 says, "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." So maybe one day you hear someone teach the Gospel and it stirs something in you. That is the Holy Spirit making you curious to know more. Then perhaps you want to find out where you can hear more about Christ and find someone teaching it and you decide to go to a Church to hear more. But you want to know even more and you decide to get a Bible to study more about Christ. So your faith grows as you continue to feed your mind on spiritual truth. This includes listening to the Holy Spirit too who is now convicting you.

You are wrong and have your understanding of salvation backwards.

I may not know everything on the subject and I'm still learning but I am not wrong. In your case you have dismissed entire passages of scripture that I've shown you and are using other scripture to work against the scripture I've shown you. Remember the Bible does not contradict itself, its people who make it come across like that by misinterpreting it. The word of God always harmonises.

The Bible tells us what we must do to be saved and obedience is one of those things whether you agree with it or not. That truth won't change whether you agree with it or not. Other things we cannot take out of the salvation equation are repentance, the grace of God, faith in and of Jesus, love, baptism and various other things that I have not mentioned too.

Obedience is the basis on which the redeemed will regain the right to the Tree of Life in heaven (Revelation 22:14).