Is God Particular?

[phipps]

Many Christians say, "I don't think it makes any difference what a person believes, as long as they are earnest about it" or "do we really have to obey God exactly?" Some say that it is impossible to obey God exactly and completely so we should just try to be as good as we can. Others think that we do not even need to try, since God will save us just the way we are.

What is the Bible’s answer to this important question? Does God mean precisely what He says? Or, may we vary His commandments and Word to fit our own convenience, doctrines and situations? There are many Bible stories on this subject but we will examine a few to help us discover that answer.

These stories are more than just interesting tales. They contain eternal lessons which will continue to speak to us as long as the world stands. In Romans15:4, we read this: "For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope." Put with that a text in 1 Corinthians 10:11: "Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come." In other words, these stories were given to guide us until the very end of time. If we want to know how to find the way into God's kingdom, we have to study the experiences of God's people as are recorded in His Word. We disregard these lessons at the peril of our own eternal life.

 

[phipps]

The first story is found in Genesis 2, it's not new to most Christians I'm sure. Its the story of Adam and Eve and their downfall. God placed our perfect parents in the lovely ideal setting of the Garden of Eden. They were surrounded by indescribable beauty. They were to live and enjoy all the pleasures of the garden except for one tree in the middle of the garden. God told them, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die” (Genesis 2:16-17). There was no question in the minds of Adam and Eve concerning the commandment of God. But Eve did not think it was really very important that she obey God exactly, so she ate a piece of fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said not to eat. As a result of this seemingly small deviation from God’s command the floodgates of misery, woe, sickness, suffering, death, strife and war were opened up for all of their descendents.

 

[phipps]

Cain was another person that did not think it was important to obey God exactly. He thought that he could choose the part of God’s command he wanted to follow, and so when God instructed them to bring a lamb as a sacrifice, he brought a sacrifice, but instead of a lamb, he brought the fruit of his own hands to offer to God. What response did he receive from God? “And the Lord respected Able and his offering, but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell. So God said to Cain, ‘Why are you angry? And why is your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is at the door” (Genesis 4:4-7). Cain was worshipping the Lord. He was even bringing an offering to the Lord, but he did not follow the divine instructions. His obedience was not exact.

 

[phipps]

So far we can see that God means exactly what He says, and that we cannot accommodate His commandments to meet our convenience. Our best efforts are wasted unless we do things exactly the way God says we should do them. Cain was right there at the altar with his fruit, but it did no good. God would not accept it. His offering was completely rejected.

We've learned from the story of Cain and Abel, and the story of Adam and Eve before them, that the results of disobedience in the smallest detail can be very tragic. When they refused to do things exactly as God commanded them some terrible results came on this world.

 

[Apheirox]

 

[phipps]

Now we go to the story of Saul. He was the first king of Israel and was chosen by God. He was a brilliant leader and a genius according to the Bible. Although the Lord had chosen him to be king over Israel, over the years he began to think he could do things on his own terms.

One day the prophet Samuel said to Saul, "Thus says the Lord of hosts: I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he ambushed him on the way when he came up from Egypt. Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey” (1 Samuel 15:2-3). Saul understood for the Bible tells us, "So Saul gathered the people together and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand men of Judah. And Saul came to a city of Amalek, and lay in wait in the valley" (1 Samuel 15:4-5).

The Amalekites had committed the unpardonable sin, and they were to be destroyed from the earth. After winning a tremendous victory under the blessing of God, Saul saw a beautiful flock of sheep and some cattle up on the hillside. They were so much fatter and nicer than any which he had seen in Israel that he began to toy with the idea of sparing them for sacrifices in the Sanctuary. Finally he yielded to the idea, and brought them back on his return from battle.

The prophet Samuel, in the meantime, had been suffering a great deal over this disobedient act of Saul. God had revealed it to him in a vision. In 1 Samuel 15:11 we read that Samuel cried to the Lord all night long over that thing. What a man of God he must have been! He understood the transgression of this leader of Israel, and he wept about it all night long, as he waited for Saul to come back from the battle. Early in the morning Samuel went out to meet Saul and immediately he heard the sound of animals. He said, "What then is this bleating of the sheep in my ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?” (verse 14). Saul began to rationalise. He said, "They have brought them from the Amalekites; for the people spared the best of the sheep and the oxen, to sacrifice to the Lord your God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed” (verse 15). He thought because they brought the best animals and they weren't saved for themselves but for sacrifices to God that that was fine.

Did Samuel say, "This is good. I hadn't thought about that, Saul. Since you brought it for a sacred use, God will surely accept it." Absolutely not! This is what he said: "Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, As in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, He also has rejected you from being king”(1 Samuel 15:22-23). That is what Samuel said to Saul, and right then and there the Holy Spirit left Saul, and he was a lost soul. Soon after that he committed suicide out on the battlefield of Gilboa.

What Saul did didn't seem to be very bad, and to Saul it was a small matter. But disobedience is disobedience. Sin is sin.

There are many stories of disobedience to God in the Old Testament like the disobedience of the antediluvians that culminated in the flood, Lot's wife, Israelites wandering in the wilderness for forty years, Aaron's disobedient sons Nadab and Abihu, Moses, David, Solomon, the disobedient prophet in 1 Kings 13, Eli and his sons, Jonah, Israel being taken captive etc.

What we learn from all these stories is that conscience is not a safe guide, not even for a man who has been chosen by God. A person may have an evil conscience, a defiled conscience, or a darkened conscience, all of these are Bible expressions. Our only safety must be in the Word of God. We cannot accept any other guiding influence in making decisions. There is no excuse good enough for disobeying God. If there had been any excuse at all, Saul certainly would have had it, wouldn't he? He was bringing those animals back to offer to God as sacrifice. But God said, No, I don't want them, even for that. I want obedience. Obedience is better than sacrifice, it's the biggest and best offering you can ever give to me. The Bible says, "To whomsoever ye yield yourself servants to obey, his servants ye are to whomsoever ye obey" (Romans 6:16). Saul had given his worship actually to someone else because he gave his obedience to someone other than God. He had made a god out of self.

 

[Bubbajay]

Cain was another person that did not think it was important to obey God exactly. He thought that he could choose the part of God’s command he wanted to follow, and so when God instructed them to bring a lamb as a sacrifice, he brought a sacrifice, but instead of a lamb, he brought the fruit of his own hands to offer to God. What response did he receive from God? “And the Lord respected Able and his offering, but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell. So God said to Cain, ‘Why are you angry? And why is your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is at the door” (Genesis 4:4-7). Cain was worshipping the Lord. He was even bringing an offering to the Lord, but he did not follow the divine instructions. His obedience was not exact.

Cain offered the works of his own hands which represents works salvation, of course God rejected it Able offered the lamb which represents Jesus Christ meaning his sacrifice is the only way, by grace through faith.

 

[phipps]

Cain offered the works of his own hands which represents works salvation, of course God rejected it Able offered the lamb which represents Jesus Christ meaning his sacrifice is the only way, by grace through faith.

That's true as well. There was a reason why God asked for a lamb to be offered and that's because it represented Christ's sacrifice for mankind. But Cain thought He would do what felt right instead of doing exactly what God asked of Him. There is always a reason why God tells us to do things exactly to the detail plus obedience is a sign of our love and faith in Him.

There is more than one lesson to be learnt from the story of Abel and Cain as is true of many stories in the Bible.

 

[Bubbajay]

Chastening of believers by God is something no one talks about for some reason. Works isn't always the sign of faith. I've known true believers that had backslidden into sin and it destroyed their lives, when any regular unsaved person wouldn't have been affected the same way. If a true believer falls into major sin like fornication, adultery, God will punish them in this world instead of the next. There's also many stories in the bible that affirm this, like Saul, Solomon, even David.

 

[phipps]

New Covenant Obedience

Some Christians may say, "Those are Old Testament stories but we are living in the New Covenant today.” But obedience as described in the New Testament is actually more stricter than of the Old Covenant (Read the Sermon on the Mount found in Matthew 5, 6 and 7).

In the New Covenant, Jesus said it is not enough to keep the law of God on the outside, we have to keep it from our heart. Jesus declared the necessity of obedience in John 5:28-29, “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” Jesus links the type of life that you live to your eternal destiny. Obedience or disobedience determines our eternal destiny.

The apostle Paul repeats the same warning as he speaks concerning God, “who will render to each one according to his deeds, eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to every one who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For an many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers or the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; . . .)” Romans 2:6-13.

James wrote on the same subject saying, “If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself,’ you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, ‘Do not commit adultery,’ also said, ‘Do not murder.’ Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty” (James 2:8-12). It is clear that James is talking about the moral law, the Ten Commandments. Breaking one of these commandments makes you guilty of breaking them all. Obedience or disobedience will determine the eternal destiny of men and women, boys and girls.

 

[phipps]

Obedience in the last days

The Bible predicts that obedience will distinguish God’s true people from His professed followers in the last days, when Jesus predicted that “Because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold” (Matthew 24:12). God’s last day people are described in Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman [the symbol of a church], and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring [the last of God’s people], who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”

God’s people in the last days will be commandment keepers. Again in Revelation 14:12 we read, “Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.” God’s people are here contrasted with the disobedient, those who receive the mark of the beast.

The last chapter of the Bible says again, “Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city” (Revelation 22:14). The next verse describes those who do not obey God’s commandments. Three times in the last three chapters of Revelation God contrasts the obedient with the disobedient, so we will not make a mistake. Eternal destiny is determined by whether you obey God exactly.

 

[Bubbajay]

New Covenant Obedience

New Covenant Obedience

Some Christians may say, "Those are Old Testament stories but we are living in the New Covenant today.” But obedience as described in the New Testament is actually more stricter than of the Old Covenant (Read the Sermon on the Mount found in Matthew 5, 6 and 7).

In the New Covenant, Jesus said it is not enough to keep the law of God on the outside, we have to keep it from our heart. Jesus declared the necessity of obedience in John 5:28-29, “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” Jesus links the type of life that you live to your eternal destiny. Obedience or disobedience determines oour eternal destiny.

The apostle Paul repeats the same warning as he speaks concerning God, “who will render to each one according to his deeds, eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to every one who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For an many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers or the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; . . .)” Romans 2:6-13.

James wrote on the same subject saying, “If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself,’ you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, ‘Do not commit adultery,’ also said, ‘Do not murder.’ Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty” (James 2:8-12). It is clear that James is talking about the moral law, the Ten Commandments. Breaking one of these commandments makes you guilty of breaking them all. Obedience or disobedience will determine the eternal destiny of men and women, boys and girls.

You believe in works salvation. faith alone determines our eternal destiny. By your own ideology Saul, Solomon, and David are all in hell.

You said "Jesus links the type of life that you live to your eternal destiny. Obedience or disobedience determines oour eternal destiny."

 

[elsbet]

Cain offered the works of his own hands which represents works salvation, of course God rejected it Able offered the lamb which represents Jesus Christ meaning his sacrifice is the only way, by grace through faith.

Indeed... Hebrews 11 confirms this (the whole chapter is about Faith in the old testament).

v. 4)​

By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did...​

Spoiler

By faith he was commended as righteous when God gave approval to his gifts. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

There is no verse indicating a lamb was to be offered-- we aren't told whether they were given direction or not.

(Genesis 4:4-7). Cain was worshipping the Lord. He was even bringing an offering to the Lord, but he did not follow the divine instructions. His obedience was not exact.

Cain did not fail due to a technicality. The bible plainly states--> Abel's Faith enabled him to offer the better sacrifice-- there is no other information offered.

Our best efforts are wasted unless we do things exactly the way God says we should do them.

There it is.

Our "best efforts" are wasted because they are meaningless, here--> you're implying "following the directions" trumps God-given Faith. That is false-- and so are the scenarios you have created.

Cain was not "worshipping God" in the sense you would have us believe... nor was he putting forth his "best effort." By that, I mean his actions were not a product of Faith; he was just going through the motions. Without faith, it is impossible to please Him.

The Amalekites were destroyed due to their treatment of Israel-- specifically, the incident when they attacked the rear guard (killing mostly women and children). Nothing indicates they committed the unpardonable sin, like the Pharisees.

Saul didn't fail on a technicality, either. He was lying when he told Samuel he saved the best sheep for sacrifice; he took them for spoils / plunder. His intentions were not good. In fact, he was in Carmel building a statue to himself, when Samuel found him. Faithless.

I assure you-- David did not follow the directions; and he paid in real time. But David never doubted God was exactly Who He said He was-- he believed God.

Like Paul warned the people in 1 Corinthians 10-- you can go through all the "holy" motions, but they will never save you.*

God wants us to yield our will to His.

Spoiler: FAITH (the yielded believer)

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).​

Spoiler: Reconciliation*

Now all things are of God, the One having reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and having given to us the ministry of reconciliation: how that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not reckoning their trespasses to them, and having put into us the word of reconciliation.

Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God is beseeching through us. We implore on behalf of Christ: Be reconciled to God. He made the One not having known sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

-

 

[phipps]

You believe in works salvation. faith alone determines our eternal destiny. By your own ideology Saul, Solomon, and David are all in hell.

You said "Jesus links the type of life that you live to your eternal destiny. Obedience or disobedience determines oour eternal destiny."

First of all hell does not exist yet. It will happen at the end when God will punish the unrighteous for all eternity. All those that are dead are in their graves awaiting their rewards when Jesus returns the second time. David and Solomon repented of their sins as the Bible tells us. Unfortunately Saul is lost because he did not repent and died in his sins.

Secondly I don't believe in works salvation nor will I ever in my right mind ever believe or teach it. We've had this discussion before and you still don't understand the point I'm making according to the Bible. Our Works cannot save us and are incapable of saving us. There is nothing we can do of ourselves to get us salvation. Salvation is a free gift of grace, received through faith. “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8). Our obedience is the fruit of salvation, its our expression of loyalty and appreciation to the God Who has saved us, “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments” (I John 2:3). Obedience is not something we can choose or escape. We have to be obedient to be saved but Christ gives us the power to obey. We can't do it on our own that's for sure.

This is connected to the faith and works as James wrote of in James 2:14-26. This means we cannot obey God without faith. The Bible also says obedience pleases God (John 8:29), and since we can please God only by faith (Hebrews 11:6), its obvious that obedience and faith are inseparable. Salvation comes by faith alone, but a true faith results in the fruit of obedience and good works. Obedience is faith in action. Works without faith is dead works.

Thirdly the Bible tells us we will be judged by our works. "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works" (Revelation 20:12) Why? Because our works show that we are saved by grace. Those who've accepted Christ's gift of salvation will have faith in Him and it will show in their works. Where there is grace, there are good works.

That is why Obedience or disobedience will determine our eternal destinies. It will be proof of our faith or not. It will be proof whether we submitted to Christ or not. That is what the Bible teaches.

 

[phipps]

@elsbet

There is no verse indicating a lamb was to be offered-- we aren't told whether they were given direction or not.

The Bible tells us, "Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground" (Genesis 4:2). Its obvious Abel offered a lamb as an offering to God since he was a keeper of sheep. And its what the Isrealites and Jews offered as an offering in the earthly sanctuary and Temple too before Christ's actual sacrifice for us.

Cain did not fail due to a technicality. The bible plainly states--> Abel's Faith enabled him to offer the better sacrifice-- there is no other information offered.

The Bible elaborates more on obedience and faith elsewhere in the Bible (we have to read on a subject in other parts of the Bible) to make it clear that faith and obedeince are inseperable. Where there is genuine faith in God, there is genuine obedience too.

There it is.

Our "best efforts" are wasted because they are meaningless, here--> you're implying "following the directions" trumps God-given Faith. That is false-- and so are the scenarios you have created.

I intend to post more on this as I am still posting in this thread, but we have to have faith to follow God's instructions exactly. We cannot do it of our own. God gives us the power to obey Him in everything.

Cain

was not "worshipping God" in the sense you would have us believe... nor was he putting forth his "best effort." By that, I mean his actions were not a product of Faith; he was just going through the motions. Without faith, it is impossible to please Him.

True, Cain had no faith (as I mentioned above) and that is why he chose not to obey God's instructions exactly as they were given to Him. However this thread is about God being particular, so I am not focussing too much on why Cain or the others disobeyed God.

The Amalekites

were destroyed due to their treatment of Israel-- specifically, the incident when they attacked the rear guard (killing mostly women and children). Nothing indicates they committed the unpardonable sin, like the Pharisees.

God does not kill people without having given them a chance to repent and come to Him. It doesn't have to be specifically mentioned in scripture all the time. We have so many stories and examples that prove God gives everyone of us a chance to choose. listen and obey Him. The Amalekites were killed not for only one reason though. The unpardonable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, its the rejection of the Holy Spirit continuously until God accepts our choice and removes the Holy Spirit from us. That is what happened to Amalekites and is why they were completely destroyed in the end.

Saul

didn't fail on a technicality, either. He was lying when he told Samuel he saved the best sheep for sacrifice; he took them for spoils / plunder. His intentions were not good. In fact, he was in Carmel building a statue to himself, when Samuel found him. Faithless.

Yes Saul was just making excuses for his disobedience to God. That is lying. Whatever the reasons for His disobedience though, the point is he disobeyed God and had been for a while. That last time was the nail in the coffin and God abandoned him forever.

I assure you-- David did not follow the directions; and he paid in real time. But David never doubted God was exactly Who He said He was-- he believed God.

My point is that God does not compromise with His commands and Word and will punish us all for being disobedient no matter who we are. David was punished but he also repented unlike Saul.

Like Paul warned the people in 1 Corinthians 10-- you can go through all the "holy" motions, but they will never save you.*

Paul is right. Works don't save us, works are the proof of if we are saved or not.

Faith

(4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).

Yes faith is a gift from God and it grows as we continue to grow in Christ. And when we have faith it leads us to obey which is also something we do by the power of God.​

​

Now all things are of God, the One having reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and having given to us the ministry of reconciliation: how that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not reckoning their trespasses to them, and having put into us the word of reconciliation.

Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God is beseeching through us. We implore on behalf of Christ: Be reconciled to God. He made the One not having known sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

Reconciliation to God is a process. We come to Christ when we are sinners and He works in our lives to transform us from the inside out. We have to submit to Him and let Him have rule of our hearts and lives. That is how we come to repent, confess and to start obeying Christ. Then we will have the ultimate reconciliation when Christ comes back the second time and will be with forever and ever.

 

[phipps]

But God isn’t particular about obedience on every detail, is He?

“Surely none of the men who came up from Egypt ... shall see the land ... because they have not wholly followed Me, except Caleb ... and Joshua ... for they have wholly followed the LORD” (Numbers32:11,12).

“Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God” (Matthew 4:4).

“You are My friends if you do whatever I command you” (John 15:14).

Indeed—He is particular. God’s people in Old Testament times learned this the hard way. Those who left Egypt for the Promised Land were a multitude in number. Of this group, only two, Caleb and Joshua, fully followed the Lord, and they alone entered Canaan. The others died in the wilderness. Jesus said we are to live by “every word” of the Bible. There is not one commandment too many or one commandment too few. They are all important!

 

[Bubbajay]

First of all hell does not exist yet. It will happen at the end when God will punish the unrighteous for all eternity. All those that are dead are in their graves awaiting their rewards when Jesus returns the second time. David and Solomon repented of their sins as the Bible tells us. Unfortunately Saul is lost because he did not repent and died in his sins.

Secondly I don't believe in works salvation nor will I ever in my right mind ever believe or teach it. We've had this discussion before and you still don't understand the point I'm making according to the Bible. Our Works cannot save us and are incapable of saving us. There is nothing we can do of ourselves to get us salvation. Salvation is a free gift of grace, received through faith. “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8). Our obedience is the fruit of salvation, its our expression of loyalty and appreciation to the God Who has saved us, “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments” (I John 2:3). Obedience is not something we can choose or escape. We have to be obedient to be saved but Christ gives us the power to obey. We can't do it on our own that's for sure.

This is connected to the faith and works as James wrote of in James 2:14-26. This means we cannot obey God without faith. The Bible also says obedience pleases God (John 8:29), and since we can please God only by faith (Hebrews 11:6), its obvious that obedience and faith are inseparable. Salvation comes by faith alone, but a true faith results in the fruit of obedience and good works. Obedience is faith in action. Works without faith is dead works.

Thirdly the Bible tells us we will be judged by our works. "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works" (Revelation 20:12) Why? Because our works show that we are saved by grace. Those who've accepted Christ's gift of salvation will have faith in Him and it will show in their works. Where there is grace, there are good works.

That is why Obedience or disobedience will determine our eternal destinies. It will be proof of our faith or not. It will be proof whether we submitted to Christ or not. That is what the Bible teaches.

No sense getting into the hell conversation since we had a whole thread on the subject, but I will say that your ideas about it come when one follows people like Ellen G. White instead of the bible. White was a known o cultist who wrote her works using "automatic writing" she also placed her writings on par with the bible itself. She was obviously influenced by freemasonry since on obelisk marks her and her husbands grave sites. Seventh Day Adventists is a false pseudo Christian cult that teaches works salvation.

 

[phipps]

No sense getting into the hell conversation since we had a whole thread on the subject, but I will say that your ideas about it come when one follows people like Ellen G. White instead of the bible. White was a known o cultist who wrote her works using "automatic writing" she also placed her writings on par with the bible itself. She was obviously influenced by freemasonry since on obelisk marks her and her husbands grave sites. Seventh Day Adventists is a false pseudo Christian cult that teaches works salvation.

Yes there is a whole thread on hell that shows biblically when people will get punished and its not right now is it? Not according to God's Word.

Where have I quoted Ellen G white in anything I've posted here? I've quoted the Bible only and shown you directly what it says about God being particular about obedience. So how has she come up at all in all of this? The only reason I can think of is that you have nothing to add to this discussion (that you started with me by the way) and have resorted to to this immature tactic. Its been used a few times on me and it does not work. It won't stop me from telling God's truth. Satan too uses such tactics but God's truth always spreads no matter how hard he tries to stop it.

And just because you say the SDA's are wrong doesn't make you right does it? They are right about God being particular, obedience to all God's commandments not just nine of them, about faith and works and more because that is what the Bible teaches whether you agree with them or not as I've shown you from the Bible. And I do know the difference between God's Word and Ellen G White so please don't patronise me and take me for a fool do you understand?

Anyway I doubt you know much about SDA's or Ellen G White for that matter that is why all you've posted is completely false. Ellen G White never placed her writings on par with the Bible itself and you would know that if you'd read any of her writings. She referred to her writings as the “lesser light” intended by God to lead men and women to the “greater light” of the Bible. The Bible is and always will be the standard of truth and the basic guide of life. No other message or writings can ever take the place of the word of God. It is the standard by which all who claim to have truth are to be tested. Throughout her writings, Ellen White fully recognized and emphasised the primacy of the Scriptures. Two brief, comprehensive sentences from the introduction to The Great Controversy, her most famous book state her view succinctly: “The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience.” In all her writings she always quoted the Bible.

Also in order to know if a person is/was affiliated with freemasonry we don't look at symbols on their grave sites that were put there after they died, we look at how they lived and what they taught. Ellen White did not teach masonic doctrine at all. She constantly indicted freemasons and secret societies in her writings. Each time she mentions them, she basically says that those who belong to such orders will be lost. Nobody should assume without proof that she was a freemason solely because she has an obelisk on her grave. Obelisks were a standard for gravestones during the time she lived. In fact, they represented one of the cheaper options. Read more about gravestone use in the US here, Association for Gravestone Studies.

Seventh Day Adventists is a false pseudo Christian cult that teaches works salvation.

I've clearly shown you that I don't believe in works salvation as taught in the Bible and I found out this truth in the SDA Chruch. So you insisting that they believe in works salvation does not make it the truth does it? The truth of God's Word is what matters here not what you think about SDA's or me.

As for SDA's being a pseudo Christian cult, do you have proof? What makes them a cult? Please share more information (with actual proof) because clearly you seem to know more than me who comes from an SDA background.

Its sad that you chose to resort to such behaviour because its immature. Do you think I haven't noticed how you've chosen to bow out of this discussion? If you had nothing to say, you should have just kept quiet. Goodbye.

 

[phipps]

Deception within Christianity.

But today there is a worldwide deception concerning the law of God. Some people think that you cannot keep it. Others think that you do not need to keep it. But the worst deception of all is when people think that they can change or adjust the requirements of God’s law, and that then they are keeping it when actually they are breaking it. (This is especially true when most Christians claim to be keeping God’s law while they are breaking the fourth commandment, the Sabbath commandment mentioned in Exodus 20:8-11).

Through Jesus, God’s mercy has been manifested to men, but mercy does not set aside justice. The law reveals the attributes of God’s character and not one jot or tittle of it can be set aside to meet man in his fallen condition. God did not change His law. He sacrificed Himself in Christ to redeem man from the curse of the law.

The law requires righteousness, a righteous life, and a perfect character. But this, man does not have and so he can not give it. He cannot meet the claims of God’s holy law, but Christ came down to earth as a man, lived a holy life and developed a perfect character. These He offers to give to man as a free gift, if man will receive it.

More than this, Christ imbues a man with the attributes of God’s own character so that He can develop, within this human being, the attributes of the divine character, that the principles of the Law might be fulfilled in the life of the Christian (Romans 8). By His life and death, Christ proved that God’s justice did not destroy His mercy as the devil’s deception claims. He showed that sin could be forgiven and that the law is righteous and can be perfectly obeyed. The law was not done away with, which would immortalize sin and place the whole world under Satan’s control.

Because the law could not be changed, Jesus died on the cross and established the law. However, Christ’s death on the cross is the very act which the devil claims destroyed the law. He has lead men to believe that the moral law, the Ten Commandments, were “nailed to the cross,” when in fact Christ came to do just the opposite.

Since the beginning of the great controversy between God and Satan, Satan has claimed that the law, spoken by God’s own voice, is faulty and that some specification can been set aside. The last great deception that Satan will bring upon the world will be on this same point. Bible prophecy foretells that in the last days Satan will assail one of God’s commandments, and lead men to keep a man-made law instead of God’s law.

Will the devil need to make you break the whole law? No, he knows that those who keep the whole law but offend in one point are guilty of all (James 2:10). He knows that if you consent deliberately to break one precept, that brings you under his control. So, the devil will work on the minds of men so that they will set up their laws to counterwork the Law of God and seek to compel the consciences of others to enforce their man-made laws.

This warfare against God’s law will continue until the end of time. Every man is going to be tested. Obedience or disobedience is the question to be decided by the whole world. Every single human being is going to choose between the law of God and the laws of men. Here the dividing line will be drawn. There will only be two classes. Every character will be fully developed, every person will demonstrate whether he will keep all the law of God.

 

[Lyfe]

The law of commandments will never become unimportant or irrelevant. They give us the knowledge of sin and act as a light in deep darkness. The whole duty of man is to fear God and keep his commandments.

That being said I really believe its important to regard the law of commandments in its proper place and through the light of the new covenant. The old covenant focused on the law of commandments, but in the new covenant we have something far greater - the holy spirit. God gave us a new heart made in the likeness of his own and came to dwell within us by his spirit. I really believe that we have to be careful to not give glory or preminance to something that was superseded by the glory of the ministration of the spirit. We were given the spirit to freely know the things of God, we have the mind of Christ. The law is a tutor, but in Christ we have the spirit. Paul said as many as are led by the spirit of God are the sons of God and if we are led by the spirit we are not under the law. In the new testament Paul always referenced and gave preminance to the holy spirit and his ability to give life and effect true change in the life of the saint. He emphasized that the law profited nothing. I really believe we as the saints of God ought to do the same, to recognize the superiority of Gods life giving spirit over the law. The holy spirit gives life and brings change, he leads and teaches. The holy spirit is GOD in us. The law does none of these things. The law of commandments told me and reminded me of the sin i had in my life. It was Gods spirit that changed me and gave me a new heart to acctually know God, a heart that by nature desires the things of the spirit. The law wasnt made for the righteous person or those in the beloved, because those in Christ have the spirit who is greater than the law. Paul told the Corinthians to examine themselves to see whether or not Jesus Christ was truly in them(through the spirit) because he believed they shouldnt need rebuke for things they should already be keen to through the spirit. He had to use the law which shoulsnt be neccesary for a child of God with the spirit. This is why Paul says the law was not made for the righteous person, but rather those without. In Christ we should have and be led by the spirit. I really believe that we ought to acknowledge the superiority and preminance of the spirit over the law. Paul did.

2 Corinthians 3:5-11
King James Version
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.