Is God competent or incompetent?

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I think what he means is that true love and faithfulness is only made possible by the existence of an alternative. Resistance to temptation qualifies loyalty -using your free will to CHOOSE to remain faithful to God despite temptation.
That’s how I saw it. I don’t think it is possible for those who wish to use sin and free will as a weapon to attack God with can possibly concede any logic to what I said as this would injure their argument.
 





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Free will to CHOOSE an alternative from God's will does exist. But falling to the consequences of this alternative by deviating from His will is the logical conclusion. Saying free will doesn't exist in this situation only works if you believe that God lives in time with us, knowing of our decisions as we make them, as opposed to Him existing outside of our reality.
Even I can virtually predict my kids actions and choices in advance without in any way being responsible for what they decide!
 





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You can’t manufacture literally perfect conditions for someone to fail, then punish them for failing. That’s masochistic. That isn’t free will, it’s a setup. Especially when you personally created every aspect of their very nature and have omniscience to know exactly what they will do in every circumstance.

You don’t put a pile of heroin in front of a heroin addict, play on all their mental health issues and then blame them solely for overdosing. You’d be tried and put in prison for facilitating homicide.
 





DevaWolf

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That’s how I saw it. I don’t think it is possible for those who wish to use sin and free will as a weapon to attack God with can possibly concede any logic to what I said as this would injure their argument.
I don't want to attack God or use any weapon against him, in fact I think he's probably a fine chap if he just created the universe and is neutral about it. It just gets different when he decided to torment for eternity those who didn't ask to come into existence.
 





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“If this being is omnipotent, then every occurrence, including every human action, every human thought, and every human feeling and aspiration is also His work; how is it possible to think of holding men responsible for their deeds and thoughts before such an almighty Being? In giving out punishment and rewards He would to a certain extent be passing judgment on Himself. How can this be combined with the goodness and righteousness ascribed to Him?" - Albert Einstein
 





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That’s how I saw it. I don’t think it is possible for those who wish to use sin and free will as a weapon to attack God with can possibly concede any logic to what I said as this would injure their argument.
A weapon to attack god with? Really? I can’t attack a god that doesn’t even exist and I’m entirely convinced the version of god you believe does not and has never existed. Pointing out the reasons why I believe so is not attacking.

There is logic to what your said, it just simply does not apply to what I said which u were supposedly responding to.
 





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“If this being is omnipotent, then every occurrence, including every human action, every human thought, and every human feeling and aspiration is also His work; how is it possible to think of holding men responsible for their deeds and thoughts before such an almighty Being? In giving out punishment and rewards He would to a certain extent be passing judgment on Himself. How can this be combined with the goodness and righteousness ascribed to Him?" - Albert Einstein
I noted the John Wayne comment you made earlier. I would observe that the Genetic Fallacy has two edges. Incisive, truthful observations are not invalidated by the poor character of the person making them and poor conclusions are not excused by the qualities of the good person suggesting them.
 





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If God knew everything from beginning to end and still gave man the ability to make their own choices, how is He responsible for those choices? The alternative would be to take away our free will altogether. To attribute the evil of men to God would be to claim He hasn't given us autonomy. Were that true, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
That’s just it, if God knows past present and future there is no choice. The only logical conclusion if your idea of God is correct ( it is not ) is predestination, which makes him Evil ( he is)
 





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That’s just it, if God knows past present and future there is no choice. The only logical conclusion if your idea of God is correct ( it is not ) is predestination, which makes him Evil ( he is)
As Zeno’s paradoxes indicate, it is quite possible to make an argument that is simultaneously logical and fallacious.

With regard to Zeno, his idea was that an arrow must go through an infinite number of half distances before it reached its target, therefore making it impossible for anybody to be shot by an arrow. His argument was impossible to answer for millennia till Planck and Quantum theory proved that reality is quantised.

In the same way, a full rebuttal of your charges against God can only really be made based on a full and true understanding of God’s eternality and foreknowledge. We don’t presently comprehend that, making observations like the ones you make appear cogent and logical. One thing it doesn’t make them is TRUE.
 





DevaWolf

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I think this where the line is that divides theists from non theists. It's just something we will never find agreement on, unless one of either of us switches their camp. To me and many others who question religion, this is simply incomprehensible. There is no way to refute God's all knowing, and how we interpret that as individuals creates the dividing line. For me it is one I cannot cross at this time in my life.
 





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I think this where the line is that divides theists from non theists. It's just something we will never find agreement on, unless one of either of us switches their camp. To me and many others who question religion, this is simply incomprehensible. There is no way to refute God's all knowing, and how we interpret that as individuals creates the dividing line. For me it is one I cannot cross at this time in my life.
I am not without empathy for people who feel they can’t see a way through to God. Things look different from the other side of the divide @DevaWolf - as I said, I will pray for you ;-)