Is Feminism Going Too Far?

[Dryad]

So, I read VC's views of feminism on his thread:

In the 20th century, I believe that feminism had clear and valid demands (eg the right to vote). It was about equality, which was a noble cause. But in the 21th century, feminism morphed into a vicious monster, fueled by outright hatred of men. It takes pleasure in destroying lives, careers and reputations through misguided outrage. I believe that the entire movement was co-opted by the elite in a wider agenda of suppressing masculinity and its inherent attributes. Feminism today does not seek to live in harmony and equality with men, it seeks to hinder and emasculate men, waging a war against them.

In short, I believe that the proverbial pendulum went too far and it needs to go back.

This got me thinking... as a female, I see feminism as a good thing generally. The odds are still stacked against women in some ways: for instance, we can't really go out at night without worrying about the risk of getting sexually harassed on the street, or worst case scenario, raped. If we want children we have to take at least some time out of our careers, meaning that over the entire length of our working life, we end up earning less than men (and probably lose out on quite a few promotions). There are still tiny little everyday examples of sexism, like when a salesman asks if you've checked with your husband before you commit to buying that new car or double glazing (this one seems surprisingly common!)

When VC talks about feminism destroying lives, I am guessing perhaps he is referring to men who are falsely accused of r*pe, and possibly men who are cut out of their children's lives? Obviously these are horrible things to happen to any man, but I'm not sure if the total number of cases like this would actually add up to MORE than the discrimination women face...?

So I'm curious: in what ways do you think feminism has swung too far and started working to the detriment of men?

 

[Kung Fu]

So, I read VC's views of feminism on his thread:



This got me thinking... as a female, I see feminism as a good thing generally. The odds are still stacked against women in some ways: for instance, we can't really go out at night without worrying about the risk of getting sexually harassed on the street, or worst case scenario, raped. If we want children we have to take at least some time out of our careers, meaning that over the entire length of our working life, we end up earning less than men (and probably lose out on quite a few promotions). There are still tiny little everyday examples of sexism, like when a salesman asks if you've checked with your husband before you commit to buying that new car or double glazing (this one seems surprisingly common!)

When VC talks about feminism destroying lives, I am guessing perhaps he is referring to men who are falsely accused of r*pe, and possibly men who are cut out of their children's lives? Obviously these are horrible things to happen to any man, but I'm not sure if the total number of cases like this would actually add up to MORE than the discrimination women face...?

So I'm curious: in what ways do you think feminism has swung too far and started working to the detriment of men?

You thinking that you need feminism today is a sign that the brainwashing that the elite have in works is working perfectly.

You speak about the odds being stacked against women yet it's males that go out to war and die, it's mainly men in jail for the pettiest of acts, shelters mainly house only women, men have the higher suicide rate, men are mostly homeless, and etc.

Also, please don't use your perceived biological implications as an excuse for discrimination. I can give you reasons but I hope you know why I say this.

 

[Aero]

I think feminism itself is a good thing. But I think the movement has had some counterproductive moments, or ideas. What I mean specifically is, we still have women sleeping their way to the top. And they might be making the smartest move! I feel like a lot of feminists are just sitting around waiting for all the Men to get together and figure it all out. That will never happen.

Women are just generally not united with each other. They will get together for the rallies and events, but the reality is most of them don't like each other. That's a serious problem when you're trying to have a "movement". A movement needs to be laser focused on a few key issues, and if resources are misplaced it's not movement.

I think that Education for young boys and girls is key and should be marked by a million infrared dots. Because none of us are going to convince some Frat boys to stop date raping girls. Their moms would literally have to catch them all in the act, or someone would have to point a gun to everyone of their heads.

 

[Dryad]

Aero I totally agree with this:

I think that Education for young boys and girls is key and should be marked by a million infrared dots. Because none of us are going to convince some Frat boys to stop date raping girls. Their moms would literally have to catch them all in the act, or someone would have to point a gun to everyone of their heads.

Education absolutely is the key. After all, for years boys and girls have had the message that if a girl gets raped it's because she deserves it, it was due to the amount she drank, what she wore etc.

Kung Fu has it occurred to you that perhaps you're the one who's been brainwashed? Men have had centuries of male privilege and it's only been in the last century or so that women have been "allowed" to catch up with the right to vote etc. "Feminism" aka "Women wanting to have equal rights" isn't something the Elite have fed us, we came up with it all by ourselves It's a natural reaction to being kept down.

As for your statistics... well, for a start I'll just address the Western world, because obviously if we look at the worldwide issues we'd have to include countries where women DON'T yet have the right to vote, or drive, or any number of little privileges that have been hard-won in US culture.

it's males that go out to war and die

Women have fought hard to be ALLOWED into the military. Plus most of the world leaders are men, and they're the ones starting those wars...

it's mainly men in jail for the pettiest of acts,

Petty acts like what? Murder? r*pe? Do you have any helpful links to crime statistics? You might also be interested in reading this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11342408/Are-men-natural-born-criminals-Prison-numbers-dont-lie.html

shelters mainly house only women

Because they're being protected from the men who have been violent towards them...

men have the higher suicide rate, men are mostly homeless, and etc

I don't know why this should be, but I suspect that whether or not men suffer from MORE mental health issues than women, it's possible they see it as more of a taboo and a weakness and don't seek help because of the unhelpful expectations on their masculinity!

I don't mean for this post to come across as man-bashing, but I wanted to directly address Kung Fu's points!

 

[Kung Fu]

Kung Fu has it occurred to you that perhaps you're the one who's been brainwashed? Men have had centuries of male privilege and it's only been in the last century or so that women have been "allowed" to catch up with the right to vote etc. "Feminism" aka "Women wanting to have equal rights" isn't something the Elite have fed us, we came up with it all by ourselves It's a natural reaction to being kept down.

You're the one eating from the elites pockets and hands in regards to feminism but perhaps I might be the brainwashed one?

As for your statistics... well, for a start I'll just address the Western world, because obviously if we look at the worldwide issues we'd have to include countries where women DON'T yet have the right to vote, or drive, or any number of little privileges that have been hard-won in US culture.

You do know that feminism started and still is aimed towards middle-class white women? White middle class women can't speak for other women and this exactly what many women of colour are telling these feminists. Feminism mainly deals with the "troubles" of white middle class women. Feminism has been made in the West for the West so please don't bring up anything outside of the West.

Women have fought hard to be ALLOWED into the military. Plus most of the world leaders are men, and they're the ones starting those wars...

If they fought so hard to be in the military why are they not on the front lines and going into wars?

I guess you haven't heard about Hillary Clinton. She was the one that spearheaded Libya and she was the one wanting to go straight into Syria and bomb the whole place to smithereens.

Petty acts like what? Murder? r*pe? Do you have any helpful links to crime statistics? You might also be interested in reading this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11342408/Are-men-natural-born-criminals-Prison-numbers-dont-lie.html

Use your brain a little why don't you. US jails are full of black men in there for acts such as stealing cookies on their third offense and or for smoking and or carrying marijuana.

You want some statistics on jail and women. Coming right up.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/men-women-prison-sentence-length-gender-gap_n_1874742.html

Because they're being protected from the men who have been violent towards them...

Let me guess CNN and or Fox told you that, right? Or did you read a 1960s novel that convinced you of that?

Funny how Harvard studies disagree with you. http://newscastmedia.com/harvard_study.htm

I don't know why this should be, but I suspect that whether or not men suffer from MORE mental health issues than women, it's possible they see it as more of a taboo and a weakness and don't seek help because of the unhelpful expectations on their masculinity!

I wonder why men suffer more mental health problems could it possibly be because of going to war, having to support a family, losing everything when they get divorced, having their kids ripped away from them, spending long jail sentences, and etc.

I don't mean for this post to come across as man-bashing, but I wanted to directly address Kung Fu's points!

Let's dance.

 

[Aero]

Well people have to fight for their own rights. If Men want to lessen some of the burdens, than let women at the big boys table! Seems like a simple solution there.

 

[Dryad]

Let's dance.

Ha ha, ok

First, regarding the brainwashing. Why do you think I have been brainwashed, simply for thinking women should have the same rights as men? Isn't that a fairly basic desire for a harmonious society? I'm not asking for women to have special privileges, just the same basic stuff men have without thinking about, like the ability to walk down the street without getting lewd comments yelled at us, equal pay for equal work blah blah. I think you have been raised (by society / media etc) to think that maybe men ARE inherently superior, so when women start edging towards what you see as your territory, it makes you kind of angry.

If they fought so hard to be in the military why are they not on the front lines and going into wars?

They are. http://taskandpurpose.com/6-women-who-fought-in-direct-combat-in-iraq-and-afghanistan/

I guess you haven't heard about Hillary Clinton. She was the one that spearheaded Libya and she was the one wanting to go straight into Syria and bomb the whole place to smithereens.

Right, Hillary Clinton was doing that single-handedly, was she? No men involved? Let's not forget, she DIDN'T get to be president.... because people would still rather vote in a male reality TV star and businessman with a dubious level of success (http://www.snopes.com/2016/08/01/donald-trumps-bankruptcies/) than a woman with experience. (Obviously I know there is more to the election that this and I don't want to derail this thread, but it's pretty interesting to me that the US still hasn't managed to vote in a female president.)

Use your brain a little why don't you. US jails are full of black men in there for acts such as stealing cookies on their third offense and or for smoking and or carrying marijuana.

Yeah, because there is a racism problem where black men are sentenced ridiculously harshly.

Let me guess CNN and or Fox told you that, right? Or did you read a 1960s novel that convinced you of that?

I don't watch CNN or Fox (What 1960s novel are you talking about, BTW?)

According to refuge.org.uk, "Four times as many women as men are killed by a current or former partner. Two women a week are killed as a result of domestic violence in England and Wales." Obviously domestic violence is horrible no matter who is doing it, but there is a difference in the likelihood of it resulting in lasting damage or death, when men and women (generally) have such different levels of physical strength.

I feel like this thread is getting a little derailed into a "Who's better, men or women?" which wasn't my intention. (Because we're all equal obviously ) I wanted to hear some examples of feminism going "too far" as VC put it. I guess I'm interested in media because that's a pretty good reflection of where we're at as a society.

I know a lot of people were very mad that the Ghostbusters remake was female-led, but how many more movies have there been with a mostly male cast and women only presented as secretaries or sex objects? There would have to be a million female-led remakes before they'd begin to approach the number of male-dominated stories.

Similarly, one example I remember from this site was when VC was talking about some TV show (and I'm sorry, I can't remember which it was) and there was like, a naked man who had been murdered, and VC said something like "imagine the outcry if this was a woman!" And I kind of laughed because I think men (and some women) honestly don't NOTICE how many TV shows are littered with the dead bodies of nubile young women. (Although plenty of horrid fashion pictures of this nature have been featured in VC's symbolic pics of the month.) It's like the film / TV industry has a fetish for dead women, and we're all so used to it that we only notice when they throw in a man once in a while.

 

[Aero]

The male response to the Ghostbusters remake was simply inexcusable. The same is true for those "Gamergate" guys. Women don't act like this, it's only the immature little boys out there.

Carl Jung said that men and women view the opposite sex differently depending on how they are progressing through the "Individuation" process. So basically to make a long story short, Eventually a healthy mind is supposed to view the opposite sex as a true equal. And I believe that this process is being deliberately stunted in Men. And it's not about holding power over women, I think it's just about keeping men emotionally dumb.

 

[Kung Fu]

Ha ha, ok

First, regarding the brainwashing. Why do you think I have been brainwashed, simply for thinking women should have the same rights as men? Isn't that a fairly basic desire for a harmonious society? I'm not asking for women to have special privileges, just the same basic stuff men have without thinking about, like the ability to walk down the street without getting lewd comments yelled at us, equal pay for equal work blah blah.

Tell me what rights in society do men have that women don't?

Men walk down the street and also receive lewd comments. Tell me more about this equal pay? For the exact same job do men make more than women?

They are. http://taskandpurpose.com/6-women-who-fought-in-direct-combat-in-iraq-and-afghanistan/

http://taskandpurpose.com/6-women-who-fought-in-direct-combat-in-iraq-and-afghanistan/

What's the ratio when compared to women vs. men?

Right, Hillary Clinton was doing that single-handedly, was she? No men involved? Let's not forget, she DIDN'T get to be president.... because people would still rather vote in a male reality TV star and businessman with a dubious level of success (http://www.snopes.com/2016/08/01/donald-trumps-bankruptcies/) than a woman with experience. (Obviously I know there is more to the election that this and I don't want to derail this thread, but it's pretty interesting to me that the US still hasn't managed to vote in a female president.)

Indeed she was when it came to Libya. She was in charge of that whole disaster. Her response to everything is to go in and bomb them. She orchestrated the whole thing and then used the men to go in and die for her phony cause. Now tell me how that's any different to any of the other male leaders?

She didn't get elected because people knew she was a war monger along with breaking the law on numerous occasions and nothing happened to her. The fact that she didn't win had nothing to do wit her gender but her policies.

Yeah, because there is a racism problem where black men are sentenced ridiculously harshly.

Did you convienantly forget to see that men get longer jail sentences than women do for the exact same crimes or are you going to deflect from that issue?

According to refuge.org.uk, "Four times as many women as men are killed by a current or former partner. Two women a week are killed as a result of domestic violence in England and Wales." Obviously domestic violence is horrible no matter who is doing it, but there is a difference in the likelihood of it resulting in lasting damage or death, when men and women (generally) have such different levels of physical strength.

Domestic violence is horrible but to don't pretend like women hold the monopoly over it like feminists and the media claim when I clearly showed you an academic peer-reviewed article from one of the biggest universities in the world that clearly showed that women were 70% of the time to initiate domestic violence. Feminism is all about equality then in that case if women don't want to be hit than perhaps they shouldn't be starting fights that they can get hurt in.

I feel like this thread is getting a little derailed into a "Who's better, men or women?" which wasn't my intention. (Because we're all equal obviously ) I wanted to hear some examples of feminism going "too far" as VC put it. I guess I'm interested in media because that's a pretty good reflection of where we're at as a society.

You wanted to play the victim card and I played your game and now you want to stop?

You just stated men are physically stronger while due to biological reasons women had to take time off work. If that's the case in what manner do you believe men and women to be equal?

Giving women full authority on their "reproductive rights" makes it a lose-lose situation for males even though it takes two to make a baby.

Women getting lighter jail sentences for the exact same crimes.

I can go on if you want?

I know a lot of people were very mad that the Ghostbusters remake was female-led, but how many more movies have there been with a mostly male cast and women only presented as secretaries or sex objects? There would have to be a million female-led remakes before they'd begin to approach the number of male-dominated stories.

People were mad at the Ghostbusters remake because it originally was about nerdy and quirky MALE scientists and that's what made it great. They changed that and it flopped just like how the Fantastic Four movie flopped when they made the TWIN brother of the WHITE girl black.

Similarly, one example I remember from this site was when VC was talking about some TV show (and I'm sorry, I can't remember which it was) and there was like, a naked man who had been murdered, and VC said something like "imagine the outcry if this was a woman!" And I kind of laughed because I think men (and some women) honestly don't NOTICE how many TV shows are littered with the dead bodies of nubile young women. (Although plenty of horrid fashion pictures of this nature have been featured in VC's symbolic pics of the month.) It's like the film / TV industry has a fetish for dead women, and we're all so used to it that we only notice when they throw in a man once in a while.

What VC said made total sense. Women hits man nothing happens. Man hits women, man goes to jail. Man gets hit in the nuts everyone laughs. Women gets hit in the vagina, people swarm her to make sure she's okay.

 

[mecca]

When VC talks about feminism destroying lives, I am guessing perhaps he is referring to men who are falsely accused of r*pe, and possibly men who are cut out of their children's lives? Obviously these are horrible things to happen to any man, but I'm not sure if the total number of cases like this would actually add up to MORE than the discrimination women face...?

Feminists actually are against these things as well. I watched this video and a lot of feminist organization's leaders said they were against these things that negatively affect men. They it's a result of sexism and they want to get rid of it. They want equality.

 

[mecca]

You do know that feminism started and still is aimed towards middle-class white women? White middle class women can't speak for other women and this exactly what many women of colour are telling these feminists. Feminism mainly deals with the "troubles" of white middle class women. Feminism has been made in the West for the West so please don't bring up anything outside of the West.

Feminism has been moving towards supporting all women for a while now. Feminists today are grouping together to focus on the people who need it most because they were previously overlooked by the feminist movements before.

 

[Kung Fu]

Feminists actually are against these things as well. I watched this video and a lot of feminist organization's leaders said they were against these things that negatively affect men. They it's a result of sexism and they want to get rid of it. They want equality.

Funny how since feminism has gotten more funding and power the less it has done anything for men. There's a reason it's called the "Feminist" movement and not a human rights movement.

 

[mecca]

If they fought so hard to be in the military why are they not on the front lines and going into wars?

There are women who do that. The draft will most probably be opened to females soon. (I think the draft should be gotten rid of all together though)

Did you convienantly forget to see that men get longer jail sentences than women do for the exact same crimes or are you going to deflect from that issue?

You're right, that does happen. Feminists would be opposed to things like this because it's not equal. The thing is, feminists typically focus on issues female's face so problems like this are probably being solved by other groups.

 

[mecca]

Eventually a healthy mind is supposed to view the opposite sex as a true equal.

Guess I have a healthy mind.

 

[Faker He-Man]

I've noticed the focus is on equality instead of freedom. I don't want women and men to be "equal", I want them to be free. Free your mind and your ass will follow. <-Truth

 

[mecca]

Funny how since feminism has gotten more funding and power the less it has done anything for men. There's a reason it's called the "Feminist" movement and not a human rights movement.

It's a movement that focuses on females because females were seen as second class citizens and are treated way worse than men. But since feminists support equality, they are also against the mistreatment of men. There are plenty of feminists who are helping to solve men's issues. There are also other groups that help men and realize the ways the system is against them.

 

[mecca]

I've noticed the focus is on equality instead of freedom. I don't want women and men to be "equal", I want them to be free. Free your mind and your ass will follow. <-Truth

Why not equal and free?

 

[Faker He-Man]

Why not equal and free?

Sort of redundant, though. Don't you agree?

It's mind games, NLP type stuff.. keeping people focused on "equality" is obviously a distraction that changes the subject into arguing over who has it worse, as evidenced in this very thread. Just my two cents.

 

[Tatilina]

Tell me what rights in society do men have that women don't?

Men walk down the street and also receive lewd comments. Tell me more about this equal pay? For the exact same job do men make more than women?



What's the ratio when compared to women vs. men?



Indeed she was when it came to Libya. She was in charge of that whole disaster. Her response to everything is to go in and bomb them. She orchestrated the whole thing and then used the men to go in and die for her phony cause. Now tell me how that's any different to any of the other male leaders?

She didn't get elected because people knew she was a war monger along with breaking the law on numerous occasions and nothing happened to her. The fact that she didn't win had nothing to do wit her gender but her policies.




Did you convienantly forget to see that men get longer jail sentences than women do for the exact same crimes or are you going to deflect from that issue?




Domestic violence is horrible but to don't pretend like women hold the monopoly over it like feminists and the media claim when I clearly showed you an academic peer-reviewed article from one of the biggest universities in the world that clearly showed that women were 70% of the time to initiate domestic violence. Feminism is all about equality then in that case if women don't want to be hit than perhaps they shouldn't be starting fights that they can get hurt in.



You wanted to play the victim card and I played your game and now you want to stop?

You just stated men are physically stronger while due to biological reasons women had to take time off work. If that's the case in what manner do you believe men and women to be equal?

Giving women full authority on their "reproductive rights" makes it a lose-lose situation for males even though it takes two to make a baby.

Women getting lighter jail sentences for the exact same crimes.

I can go on if you want?



People were mad at the Ghostbusters remake because it originally was about nerdy and quirky MALE scientists and that's what made it great. They changed that and it flopped just like how the Fantastic Four movie flopped when they made the TWIN brother of the WHITE girl black.



What VC said made total sense. Women hits man nothing happens. Man hits women, man goes to jail. Man gets hit in the nuts everyone laughs. Women gets hit in the vagina, people swarm her to make sure she's okay.

I absolutely believe that women who want to be equal to men have to be treated as men in every way, including fighting. If a man hits a woman, you knock her ass out!

 

[mecca]

Sort of redundant, though. Don't you agree?

It's mind games, NLP type stuff.. keeping people focused on "equality" is obviously a distraction that changes the subject into arguing over who has it worse, as evidenced in this very thread. Just my two cents.

I guess if everyone got together and focused on all of our freedom, equality would just naturally come about. Maybe...