Is chivalry dead?

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#62
I don’t know any woman who has yelled at or made fun of a man for opening the door for them or paying on a date. Some women may want to go Dutch on dates so their dates don’t feel like they are owed something for paying and that’s perfectly reasonable.
I don’t know any woman who has yelled at or made fun of a man for opening the door for them or paying on a date. Some women may want to go Dutch on dates so their dates don’t feel like they are owed something for paying and that’s perfectly reasonable.
That is interesting. I have not seen it done, but I have heard women speak about how they do not care for the gesture. it comes across as if they are weak. they do not feel flattered at all.

I have also heard women speak of being offended by a man insisting on paying. Women to me seem a bit more rough around the edges. I think a lot of ladies would prefer to be called a b*@#! than a wh*$#, which results in this hard exterior.
 





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#64
That is interesting. I have not seen it done, but I have heard women speak about how they do not care for the gesture. it comes across as if they are weak. they do not feel flattered at all.

I have also heard women speak of being offended by a man insisting on paying. Women to me seem a bit more rough around the edges. I think a lot of ladies would prefer to be called a b*@#! than a wh*$#, which results in this hard exterior.
Your confusing - or whoever thinks like that is confusing - a show of strength with consideration. Holding the door open for someone is CONSIDERATE. I hold the door open for people all the time - whoever is behind me male or female and I will rush ahead to grab the door for someone carrying stuff, the elderly, children, women with children etc. I do not rush ahead to grab the door for a man because there’s no reason.

This is basic consideration for other people. If someone is offended by that they are seriously confused. I’ve never seen or heard of anyone actually being offended by this however and I assume this is just a bogey man story put forth to tarnish feminism.

As for the paying on dates thing women have many valid reasons to be wary of someone paying for them on dates. There are many men who tend to think paying for a date or some certain number of dates entitles them to sex or things of a sexual nature. That they are owed it as recompense. If a woman would rather opt out of that at the very least uncomfortable situation and at worst potentially violent situation that is her right. This again isn’t about being stronger or emasculating men. This is about protecting yourself.
 





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#66
Yes we get screwed from all sides. You could say feminism helps hold us down while the economic system gets busy.
But it really doesn't, dude. If anything, it's one of many possible catalysts to get people to realize much of our world is socially constructed.

What I meant by altruism is that both sexes make huge sacrifices and instead of celebrating selfless care with gratitude as is tradition, it becomes something you dole out with "I don't need your help" and "you don't deserve my help" sentiment abounding.
I don't know a single feminist that thinks someone doesn't deserve their help. I know a few that might say they don't need help in certain circumstances... But the same goes for anyone.

To affirm your understanding, I don't think taking more from a spouse for the sake of equality is important. How does it sound to endlessly measure our contributions instead of going out to protest.
Umm... No health measures contributions if both are contributing, dude...

Anyway, I don't get in any sense that you're curious, like I'm curious about your train of thought on rapists. How would you feel if anything bad you said about chivalry, I blamed on feudalism instead, declaring chivalry untarnished.
All I said about chivalry is it never really existed. As we see it today, it came from fictional stories.
 





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#67
...and what, you think feminism has nothing to do with bringing this about?
Because it sure hasn't fostered the opposite, even taking everything you say at face value.
And "all that comes out is ignorance" is just one of these cliché -ist Orwellian insults.
How is feminism responsible for your lack of social skills and personality?
Hmm interesting point. I am one of the people who needs to grow up!!

Although I see validity in your point, I do prefer to be treated as my definition of a lady. I don't throw a tantrum if I am not treated how I feel a lady should be treated, but I was raised to have expectations of how a man will treat me.

Being from the south makes a bit of a difference in regard to this concept for me :))
Has nothing to do with you being from a certain place. Everyone has a type and prefers to be treated a certain way.

The important thing is recognizing that just because someone isn't your type doesn't mean they are unattractive to every man/woman/aeroplane out there.
 





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#68
And date paying thing is subjective. I feel like whoever is asking the other out should be paying unless you're already together.

Even then I do not believe in splitting the bill. One can order an item worth 100 bucks and other 20 bucks and the split makes it unfair.
Separate bills all the way.
 





rex

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#69
Who cares what came first, jess. It's not a simple case of "A causes B causes C". Also so what if something is a reaction - just because it's a reaction doesn't automatically justify or even explain it.
blaming feminism for someone’s innate lack of social skills?
What do you mean "innate" social skills? Like we're born with them? No, they are (un)developed.

And I wasn't "blaming" which relinquishes responsibility. This may be a naive notion, but an institution like feminism might theoretically want to actually improve people's relationships, a practical thing everyone cares about. Instead it hasn't done shit for it and we see perpetually worsening gender relations. I expect you'd claim it's only incidentally correlated, and caused by something else entirely.

Allowing your rather hostile moving of the goalposts, there are things that hamper men's (social) development. It's having fewer father figures, attending school systems that increasingly cater to female-type development, shirking moral feminist landmines instead of playing and exploring and developing, all before any hint of aggression enters the picture. Less to be proud of, less desire and capacity to be nice. On top of that, extra competition for the jobs that enable economic stability. And so we connect the concerted efforts of feminism to the very characteristics panamana is complaining about.

Care has opportunity costs the elite wants us to ignore, and care =/= results.
 





rex

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#71
As for the paying on dates thing women have many valid reasons to be wary of someone paying for them on dates. There are many men who tend to think paying for a date or some certain number of dates entitles them to sex or things of a sexual nature. That they are owed it as recompense. If a woman would rather opt out of that at the very least uncomfortable situation and at worst potentially violent situation that is her right. This again isn’t about being stronger or emasculating men. This is about protecting yourself.
This is basic common wisdom and good to keep in mind for everybody, especially in this context. Preferably, everything is better communicated between the parties as well.
much of our world is socially constructed
Ha no shit but social constructions aren't automatically bad. Wow, feels weird to have to say that. Now I can't help but feel you're misreading everything else on purpose.
 





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#72
Who cares what came first, jess. It's not a simple case of "A causes B causes C". Also so what if something is a reaction - just because it's a reaction doesn't automatically justify or even explain it.

What do you mean "innate" social skills? Like we're born with them? No, they are (un)developed.

And I wasn't "blaming" which relinquishes responsibility. This may be a naive notion, but an institution like feminism might theoretically want to actually improve people's relationships, a practical thing everyone cares about. Instead it hasn't done shit for it and we see perpetually worsening gender relations. I expect you'd claim it's only incidentally correlated, and caused by something else entirely.

Allowing your rather hostile moving of the goalposts, there are things that hamper men's (social) development. It's having fewer father figures, attending school systems that increasingly cater to female-type development, shirking moral feminist landmines instead of playing and exploring and developing, all before any hint of aggression enters the picture. Less to be proud of, less desire and capacity to be nice. On top of that, extra competition for the jobs that enable economic stability. And so we connect the concerted efforts of feminism to the very characteristics panamana is complaining about.

Care has opportunity costs the elite wants us to ignore, and care =/= results.
I have to seriously disagree with your contention that it doesn’t matter which came first. It is of the utmost importance in being able to evaluate who the true enemy was and still is. It isn’t women. It isn’t feminism. It is the capital/industrialist class 1000%.

Prior to the industrial revolution families were the center of the universe. A woman’s role in the home, raising children, helping on the farm or with her husbands trade was given the utmost respect. Families lived in tight knit communities with extended family and life long friends nearby and ready to help and pitch in. When industrialization happened all of this changed over night and so substantially that we have not recovered since. Women lost their place in the home - no longer did they have the family farm or business to work in, living in cities required additional expenses and women often had to enter the official work force to make ends meet, raising children was outsourced to schools, there was no more family and friends around for a social or helping network etc etc. Even things such as the invention of the vacuum or the sewing machine changed women’s roles and expectations so greatly leaving them without their place in the world seeking out a new one.

Second wave feminism sprung out of this context as a direct response to it. Ignoring that means you are constantly fighting against the wrong enemy. Rolling back women’s rights or the effects of feminism will do nothing to fix the root of the problem. You want to change things? Go after their cause.

If I have a fever and I take Tylenol without investigating why I have the fever I may get rid of the fever but I’m not getting rid of the disease. And without antibiotics that disease will continue to fester. The Tylenol will mask the symptoms good enough to allow the disease to destroy me. Maybe even kill me.


As for social skills... women having choices and choosing to not engage with a person who lacks them is not the cause of that person not having social skills. Feminism didn’t cause that. Maybe before feminism when there were arranged marriages that person would have gotten laid regardless but the answer here isn’t to force some poor woman to marry an asshole, it’s to help that asshole acquire social skills so people want to be around him.
 





rex

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#75
help that asshole acquire social skills so people want to be around him.
I just outlined some ways those assholes are forestalled in their development and social skill acquisition, with feminism having a guiding hand in that. Becoming confused, browbeaten, bitter, less accomplished and actually less worthy. Not by comparison to women because most no one cares about that except feminists, but just by themselves as human beings.
It isn’t feminism. It is the capital/industrialist class 1000%.
You implicate this capital/industrialist class but exculpate one of its major tools.
Maybe you bought that gun originally but your enemy is pointing it at you.
 





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#76
Your confusing - or whoever thinks like that is confusing - a show of strength with consideration. Holding the door open for someone is CONSIDERATE. I hold the door open for people all the time - whoever is behind me male or female and I will rush ahead to grab the door for someone carrying stuff, the elderly, children, women with children etc. I do not rush ahead to grab the door for a man because there’s no reason.

This is basic consideration for other people. If someone is offended by that they are seriously confused. I’ve never seen or heard of anyone actually being offended by this however and I assume this is just a bogey man story put forth to tarnish feminism.

As for the paying on dates thing women have many valid reasons to be wary of someone paying for them on dates. There are many men who tend to think paying for a date or some certain number of dates entitles them to sex or things of a sexual nature. That they are owed it as recompense. If a woman would rather opt out of that at the very least uncomfortable situation and at worst potentially violent situation that is her right. This again isn’t about being stronger or emasculating men. This is about protecting yourself.
Hmm you seem to think that I disagree with you. But hey I appreciate your opinion! I won't say much more, you are already pretty confused. I'll share my fake boogie man stories with people who appreciate them ;)
 





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#77
How is feminism responsible for your lack of social skills and personality?
Has nothing to do with you being from a certain place. Everyone has a type and prefers to be treated a certain way.

The important thing is recognizing that just because someone isn't your type doesn't mean they are unattractive to every man/woman/aeroplane out there.
That is very true. I think most people need to hear this. Your cup of tea is another mans bag of s@*!
 





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#78
Ha no shit but social constructions aren't automatically bad. Wow, feels weird to have to say that. Now I can't help but feel you're misreading everything else on purpose.
Social constructs aren't automatically bad but people shouldn't be forced to follow them.

And I don't see how I am. You're the one that seems to think feminism is something that it isn't. I mean what you ever actually read any essays by feminists? Or do you just know thing second-hand.
 





rex

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#80
Whatever essays academic scholars send to each other are fairly self-contained and matter little. It's the massive propaganda, funding, policy, regulations, cultural wars that matter. And I think it's ignoble to hide behind the justifications and intentions that are presented.

Flaunting social constructions has repercussions and men don't always pick up the pieces. I'm saying, be aware.