In The Beginning

[Douglas Summers]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him. And without Him, was not anything made that was made. (John 1:1-3)
In The beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. The etymology of the word God here in Hebrew is "El", "Elah", "Elohim", Meaning the Strong one. And how does that apply, "He creates". "Elah" which is between "El" and "Elohim" is the strong one who is to be worshiped. And "Elohim" (a plural noun) or a uni-plural noun and carries the meaning of, God, "The strong and faithful one who is to be worshiped. Genesis 1:1 to 11:9, God dealt with all mankind the same, But God had predestined Israel beforehand at the creation of the world. But even before He created the earth, he had called out His Church beforehand (Eph. 1:4). From Gen. 11:10 to Malachi 4:6, The Jew is primarily in view. Other nations and people are mentioned, only as they touch Israel.

The four Gospels are primarily about Israel, The Church only mentioned as future And the Acts to Revelation Chapter 4 are to and about the Church. All of the warnings and events to come are Church doctrine....not Israel. This is where most teachings go off the teaching of the Gospel. Claiming the promises of Israel to the Church has done more to hinder the Gospel then all other things combined.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Douglas Summers

I think there a lot of well meaning Christians who confuse the notion of us inheriting the promises God made to Israel with the belief that ethnic Israel ceased to factor in Gods plans (and are branded with the mark of Cain). I think those taking this position might think that henceforth, unfulfilled prophetic passages mentioning Israel actually apply to the Church.

 

[Douglas Summers]

@Douglas Summers

I think there a lot of well meaning Christians who confuse the notion of us inheriting the promises God made to Israel with the belief that ethnic Israel ceased to factor in Gods plans (and are branded with the mark of Cain). I think those taking this position might think that henceforth, unfulfilled prophetic passages mentioning Israel actually apply to the Church.

Yes Red, that is why they can't understand the rapture for one thing, They think the Scriptures in 1 Corinthians 15: 51-57 is the resurrection of everyone, But the Church here is in view, along with 1 Thes. 4: 13-18 and 2 Thes. 2: 1-12 to name a few.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Yes Red, that is why they can't understand the rapture for one thing, They think the Scriptures in 1 Corinthians 15: 51-57 is the resurrection of everyone, But the Church here is in view, along with 1 Thes. 4: 13-18 and 2 Thes. 2: 1-12 to name a few.

Unfortunately you can’t make anyone understand anything they are not minded to understand!

 

[Mark Sunnyfield]

The church is Israel. The rapture doctrine is setting people up to lose their faith when it doesn't happen. The modern day "Jews" are not and are the Synagogue of Satan. Zionist Talmudic Judaism is the Whore of Babylon.

 

[Lisa]

The rapture doctrine is setting people up to lose their faith when it doesn't happen

I think so too.

 

[Vytas]

The church is Israel. The rapture doctrine is setting people up to lose their faith when it doesn't happen. The modern day "Jews" are not and are the Synagogue of Satan. Zionist Talmudic Judaism is the Whore of Babylon.

What are Christians then?
Those who believe in post -trib....after all they already saw, won't be broken by that either, meaning if it doesn't happen...Anyhow without agreement about exact date it's hard to lose anything...

 

[Lisa]

What are Christians then?
Those who believe in post -trib....after all they already saw, won't be broken by that either, meaning if it doesn't happen...Anyhow without agreement about exact date it's hard to lose anything...

I think he means they’ll lose their faith because their faith is in not being here. That’s what I think anyway, not sure that’s what Mark thinks.

However, there’s got to be a reason for people to turn on each other and hate each other, perhaps that’s it?

Mark‬ ‭13:12
Brother will betray brother to death​

‭‭

 

[Vytas]

I think he means they’ll lose their faith because their faith is in not being here. That’s what I think anyway, not sure that’s what Mark thinks.

However, there’s got to be a reason for people to turn on each other and hate each other, perhaps that’s it?

Mark‬ ‭13:12​

Brother will betray brother to death​

‭‭

People hate each other right now just fine....Personal experiences lol.
You can't lose something you don't have...

 

[Lisa]

People hate each other right now just fine....Personal experiences lol.
You can't lose something you don't have...

Do they hate each other to the death? Jesus says brother will betray brother...I don’t think that’s happening yet myself. It seems to happen when people fall away, so honestly it could happen when the pre trib rapture doesn’t happen.

Matthew‬ ‭24:10‬ ‭
At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.​

‭‭
Actually you can lose faith..aka as falling away from the faith and we know because the Spirit explicitly tells us this will happen.

‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.​

 

[Vytas]

Do they hate each other to the death? Jesus says brother will betray brother...I don’t think that’s happening yet myself. It seems to happen when people fall away, so honestly it could happen when the pre trib rapture doesn’t happen.

Matthew‬ ‭24:10‬ ‭​

At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.​

‭‭
Actually you can lose faith..aka as falling away from the faith and we know because the Spirit explicitly tells us this will happen.

‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭​

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.​

You have very good opinion about the world. Let's say 1/10th of the world are genuine christians, I'm really generous here, doesn't come even close to that. Half of them believe in rapture and 1/3 of that half in pre trib. With that number could we get at least one rogue Christian in every city? (World has more cities than just US, clarifying just in case ).
How I see it it's a natural process... Little by little we coming close to that. Brother killing brother? Mothers are killing their own kids, born/unborn just a piece of meat. It requires no special event to get little worse, it will...

 

[Lisa]

You have very good opinion about the world. Let's say 1/10th of the world are genuine christians, I'm really generous here, doesn't come even close to that. Half of them believe in rapture and 1/3 of that half in pre trib. With that number could we get at least one rogue Christian in every city? (World has more cities than just US, clarifying just in case ).
How I see it it's a natural process... Little by little we coming close to that. Brother killing brother? Mothers are killing their own kids, born/unborn just a piece of meat. It requires no special event to get little worse, it will...

I think a significant portion of Christians are pre trib actually and they all seem to be focused on not being here for the tribulation. I don’t know exactly how many, but there were tons of copies of left behind bought in the day. I bought them and I believed in the pre trib then.


‭‭

 

[Vytas]

What is "left behind" ? Book ?

 

[Lisa]

What is "left behind" ? Book ?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Behind

They were a series of books about the end times that begins with the pre trib rapture and then people becoming Christians after that who are left to deal with the tribulation.

 

[Vytas]

I heard of the author, I thought he was debunked year's ago.
And who changed your opinion ?

 

[Lisa]

I heard of the author, I thought he was debunked year's ago.
And who changed your opinion ?

Idk if he was debunked or not, I know that he was highly thought of and was an expert on the end times. Many of the sermons and theology about the rapture and end times had roots in what he said.

My opinion started changing when I realized that the pre trib couldn’t be true, if God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow then how is it that He would save people before the great tribulation. That started to not make sense to me..then and I hate to admit this, but Steven Anderson (yes, that Steven Anderson) did a movie that I first saw a written outline of pre wrath then saw his movie on Alex Jones..when I used to watch Alex Jones, anyway.
That turned the tide for me. Plus I had remembered something the pastor of the church I was attending said.. “I preach pre trib but I have been thinking that the trib wont happen until the end, but I can’t preach that because everyone believes pre trib.” And I thought at the time that I would have like to have heard the unpreached sermon.

 

[ThisGirlWoke]

Idk if he was debunked or not, I know that he was highly thought of and was an expert on the end times. Many of the sermons and theology about the rapture and end times had roots in what he said.

My opinion started changing when I realized that the pre trib couldn’t be true, if God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow then how is it that He would save people before the great tribulation. That started to not make sense to me..then and I hate to admit this, but Steven Anderson (yes, that Steven Anderson) did a movie that I first saw a written outline of pre wrath then saw his movie on Alex Jones..when I used to watch Alex Jones, anyway.
That turned the tide for me. Plus I had remembered something the pastor of the church I was attending said.. “I preach pre trib but I have been thinking that the trib wont happen until the end, but I can’t preach that because everyone believes pre trib.” And I thought at the time that I would have like to have heard the unpreached sermon.

So, you believe in the mid tribulation rapture then? Because if you think God will save us from the GREAT Tribulation, that's literally the remaining half years of the entire 7 years total. The first 3 and a half years are not gonna start that bad until they start including the mark, and the GREAT tribulation is when God will have his 7 angels unleash his anger. "The wine of the wrath of God will be poured full strength", on those with the mark.

But during that time, he isn't going to return because instead, he's gonna seal us with his name on our foreheads meaning there is NO mid tribulation rapture. There is also NO post tribulation rapture because exactly at the end of the 7 years, Jesus will return NOT THE GATHER HIS PEOPLE (Because he did so already pre-trib, that's why he always tells us blessed is he who watches for my return) BUT to slay the wicked and begin the 1,000 years.

So therefore, there is NO mid or post tribulation rapture because the 1,000 years starts and what does Jesus do when he returns during that time? Starts the 1,000 years. What does he do before the entire tribulation actually start? He gets his people. The ones remaining, some of them will die, "And I John, saw those who were beheaded for their testimony of Jesus", some of them will get sealed "And the angels went forth to the four corners of the earth and sealed the name of God on their foreheads", and US the ones who got raptured will be returning BEHIND Jesus on white horses!

 

[Lisa]

So, you believe in the mid tribulation rapture then? Because if you think God will save us from the GREAT Tribulation, that's literally the remaining half years of the entire 7 years total. The first 3 and a half years are not gonna start that bad until they start including the mark, and the GREAT tribulation is when God will have his 7 angels unleash his anger. "The wine of the wrath of God will be poured full strength", on those with the mark.

But during that time, he isn't going to return because instead, he's gonna seal us with his name on our foreheads meaning there is NO mid tribulation rapture. There is also NO post tribulation rapture because exactly at the end of the 7 years, Jesus will return NOT THE GATHER HIS PEOPLE (Because he did so already pre-trib, that's why he always tells us blessed is he who watches for my return) BUT to slay the wicked and begin the 1,000 years.

So therefore, there is NO mid or post tribulation rapture because the 1,000 years starts and what does Jesus do when he returns during that time? Starts the 1,000 years. What does he do before the entire tribulation actually start? He gets his people. The ones remaining, some of them will die, "And I John, saw those who were beheaded for their testimony of Jesus", some of them will get sealed "And the angels went forth to the four corners of the earth and sealed the name of God on their foreheads", and US the ones who got raptured will be returning BEHIND Jesus on white horses!

I believe in the pre wrath rapture. That happens right before God’s wrath starts with the 7th trumpet. Revelation 8

The first 6 seals seem pretty bad actually..Revelation 6

When do you think God seals people on their foreheads? The only part that says anything about that is for the Jews, the sealing of the 144,000.
Revelation 7:4-8

You seem to have revelations mixed up a bit, honestly. There is a rapture for the church but it doesn’t come in the beginning.

The 5th seal tells us that there will be Christians on the earth during the tribulation because those people will be martyred. Revelation 6:9-11
Paul also talks about it saying the dead will rise first and then we who remain will go next. 1Thessalonians 4:13-18
Not only that but before that can even happen, the apostasy and the antichrist will be revealed first..
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
The antichrist will not be revealed until the mid point Daniel 11:31..so it’s at least till the mid point..
We are also told that our job is going before governors and kings asa testimony to them.
Mark 13:9
Finally we don’t land up in heaven until Revelation 7:9-14 with verse 14 saying

Revelation‬ ‭7:14‬ ‭
I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.​

The white robes also mirror the color of the robes the martyrs are wearing under the alter.

​

Even Jesus tells us..

John‬ ‭17:15‬ ‭
“I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.”​

‭‭So why would Jesus say don’t take them out of the world but takes us out of the word before we can go before governors and kings as a testimony to them, before martyrs are martyred and last but not least before we are told the multitude came out of the great tribulation in revelation 7:14? There is no pre trib rapture that is a myth.

 

[Mark Sunnyfield]

Revelations says the Beast will be given power to make war with the saints and to overcome them. The image of the Beast will know who is worshipping it and who isn't, which I believe to be Ai and the social credit score system, and it will only be Christians who can resist- only those whose names are written in the Lambs book of life. The ones who don't worship and are caught will be beheaded. This is why it says many who are last shall be first, because these will be the most tested believers of all the ages. Also, it says Jesus will return like lightening in the heavens and all eyes will see him. The "rapture" lie is assuming Jesus will secretly return unseen, then come back a 3rd time.

 

[ThisGirlWoke]

I believe in the pre wrath rapture. That happens right before God’s wrath starts with the 7th trumpet. Revelation 8

The first 6 seals seem pretty bad actually..Revelation 6

When do you think God seals people on their foreheads? The only part that says anything about that is for the Jews, the sealing of the 144,000.
Revelation 7:4-8

You seem to have revelations mixed up a bit, honestly. There is a rapture for the church but it doesn’t come in the beginning.

The 5th seal tells us that there will be Christians on the earth during the tribulation because those people will be martyred. Revelation 6:9-11
Paul also talks about it saying the dead will rise first and then we who remain will go next. 1Thessalonians 4:13-18
Not only that but before that can even happen, the apostasy and the antichrist will be revealed first..
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
The antichrist will not be revealed until the mid point Daniel 11:31..so it’s at least till the mid point..
We are also told that our job is going before governors and kings asa testimony to them.
Mark 13:9
Finally we don’t land up in heaven until Revelation 7:9-14 with verse 14 saying

Revelation‬ ‭7:14‬ ‭​

I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.​

The white robes also mirror the color of the robes the martyrs are wearing under the alter.

​

Even Jesus tells us..

John‬ ‭17:15‬ ‭​

“I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.”​

‭‭So why would Jesus say don’t take them out of the world but takes us out of the word before we can go before governors and kings as a testimony to them, before martyrs are martyred and last but not least before we are told the multitude came out of the great tribulation in revelation 7:14? There is no pre trib rapture that is a myth.

By "Keep them out of the world", he means he will not save them from the worldly things of this world. Actually, this verse has nothing to do with the rapture. You know how God says we are going to experience trials? Also most people assume Christians are perfect once they receive Christ. We all know that's NOT true as we STILL go through trials.

There are times we're with God and there's times we don't want to be around him. We aren't perfect, we will make mistakes whether willingly or not. That's because we are humans. We will fail sometimes, and sometimes we will win. As long as we continue to humble ourselves in Christ, that's how we continue to be saved.

"But to keep them from the evil one", means satan will go after Gods elect obviously he likes to target his people, but God also said even though we will experience trials and pain, he won't let it overwhelm us. So that's what he means by this verse. He means we will still be in pain, but he won't allow satan's TEMPTATIONS to overwhelm us.

Overall, this verse has nothing to do with the rapture.


And by "These are they who have COME OUT of the great tribulation", Johns vision given by God explains how the sealed were NOT hurt but PROTECTED from his wrath.

Whether you believe it or not, when we talk about rapture, we mean the gathering away of the church. Why do you think Jesus says to be on the lookout? We aren't staying here during tribulation because by the end of the 7 years only the wicked and the ones with the mark will be on earth. THAT IS WHY Jesus comes back as a KING. To do what? ONLY to slay the wicked and start the 1,000 hence the Millenium title in the Bible anyways! That's all he is doing! He is not gonna rapture us up as he's coming back on a white horse. Who's the people behind him then? The verse says Jesus will come back as a conquering king on a white horse and his people behind him in fresh white garments. Who are these people! These are those who were raptured, and those who were left behind but died for their faith once they received Jesus!

When he sets up the Holy City, the 144,000 are going but they won't get caught up because before he even sets up the city, he and his people will immediately begin slaying the wicked before taking their place in the kingdom for 1,000 years.