If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose it?

[rainerann]

GCB you are on a roll today...

 

[Renegade]

 

[Thunderian]

Countries such as Egypt, Morocco, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan all have significant Christian and Jewish populations.

Significant in what way? There are an estimated 18 Jews living in Egypt. The only thing significant is that there are any there at all, and the numbers are pretty much the same for any given Muslim country.

As for the Christian community there ...

Christians pelted with ROCKS in shocking attack
Series of attacks in Egypt targeting Coptic Christians
Dozens of Egyptian Coptic Christians Murdered in Attack South of Cairo
Egypt security forces depriving Christians of rights

You may want to update your info.

 

[DesertRose]

Significant in what way? There are an estimated 18 Jews living in Egypt. The only thing significant is that there are any there at all, and the numbers are pretty much the same for any given Muslim country.

You know that large numbers lived in those countries historically so what are you getting at. We all know that Israelis have helped them to leave and migrate but that does not negate that they lived there and in peace?
Egypt has been in a state of civil war and civil unrest. In the not too distant past these things did not take place.
In North America mosques have been defaced and burned and ladies have had their hijabs pulled,etc I could give you long lists as well.
Your little blurb highlights that there are people who do wrong but this is in all communities.

You really have issues with understanding and not applying collective guilt don't you?

Jewish Rabbi : How Islam and Muslims treated Jews and the real threat to world peace

My week as a Muslim 2017

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Meh.
Tell it to pope Francis.

This thread, and the Paul thread are division in action, even though on a small scale. There is not much one can take away from either, aside from disgust at the intentionally obtuse.

Shake the dust from your feet, and all that.

Jesus said, "Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war.


Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

GCB you are on a roll today...

So far so good buddy.

Regards
DL

 

[SpektaCoolAir]

Significant in what way? There are an estimated 18 Jews living in Egypt. The only thing significant is that there are any there at all, and the numbers are pretty much the same for any given Muslim country.

As for the Christian community there ...

Christians pelted with ROCKS in shocking attack
Series of attacks in Egypt targeting Coptic Christians
Dozens of Egyptian Coptic Christians Murdered in Attack South of Cairo
Egypt security forces depriving Christians of rights

You may want to update your info.

"Their intention is to extinguish God's Light (by blowing) with their mouths: But God will complete (the revelation of) His Light, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it)."

(Qur'an, Sourah As-Saff (61), Verse (8))

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Sharia denies Muslin females full equality and makes all Muslim women second class citizens.

Sharia and Islam are slave holding ideologies that all free men will shun as the first duty od free people is to insure that all share that freedom.

Regards
DL

 

[SpektaCoolAir]

Sharia denies Muslin females full equality and makes all Muslim women second class citizens.

Sharia and Islam are slave holding ideologies that all free men will shun as the first duty od free people is to insure that all share that freedom.

Regards
DL

and you are just another waste of sperm that is worth no attention at all - no matter how desperate you are trying to get it with all the bullshit you produce.
talking a whole lotta shit for somebody that ain't even shit.

so no matter what you "say" it's like "whatever though"!

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

and you are just another waste of sperm that is worth no attention at all - no matter how desperate you are trying to get it with all the bullshit you produce.
talking a whole lotta shit for somebody that ain't even shit.

so no matter what you "say" it's like "whatever though"!

Attacking the messenger and not arguing against the message shows that you cannot refute the premise.

Regards
DL

 

[AspiringSoul]

Do you know what I think?
I think you're an idiot and the irony in your posts is astounding..

1) You generalise over billions of people based on the examples of a lot...but still only a very small minority.
Example
Say right now, in this world, there are 200,0000 fucked up evil minded muslims.
That is not even 0.002% of the population.
Furthermore it is better to understand people's conditions before you judge them. Billions are not even educated. Why judge a religion off the back of that? Why not judge the conditions ie the greed of emperors/kings/presidents.
Much of the hate in the middle east was a product of decades/centuries of tyranical leaders, post-colonion nationalism and conflicts along with constant western interference (britain, france, russia, america).


2) by thinking in such black/white extreme ways, you prove you're actually the same as those type of people, you see things in black/white. you hide behind a veiled idea of 'morality'...guess what, so do they.
Sure, you're passive..but the underlying ideas you hold would eventually lead to intolerance.
if there were 1.5billion gnostic christians, managing that many ESPECIALLY with constant interference from the evil side over centuries would no doubt lead to various extremities.

3) your views of the demiurge. Assuming a demiurge is the cause of all problems in life, why aren't you opposed to the ultimate God/Essence or whatever power allowing a demiurge to exist?
furthermore anything and everything that enables the cause of material attainment has to be considered evil and opposed.
So for example you would most certainly need to be against the media, movie, tv industries, major corporations.
Well, what have you done about it?

You wrote
We are not pacifists but historically have done our ideological fighting with good arguments instead of violence.

because 'good arguments' really change things don't they?

"hey porn industry, you people are wrong you know? gnosticism is the way forwardz, please stahp doing it"
i can see this working.


4) 'other ideologies'
you mean like Marxist russia where they persecuted religions on a level unheard of before?
did gnostic christians fight the soviet union or muslim jihadists?

conclusion: Yes we should actively oppose evil but it's like the Quran says


190 And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
191 And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
192 But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
193 And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Do you know what I think?
I think you're an idiot and the irony in your posts is astounding..

1) You generalise over billions of people based on the examples of a lot...but still only a very small minority.
Example
Say right now, in this world, there are 200,0000 fucked up evil minded muslims.
That is not even 0.002% of the population.
Furthermore it is better to understand people's conditions before you judge them. Billions are not even educated. Why judge a religion off the back of that? Why not judge the conditions ie the greed of emperors/kings/presidents.
Much of the hate in the middle east was a product of decades/centuries of tyranical leaders, post-colonion nationalism and conflicts along with constant western interference (britain, france, russia, america).


2) by thinking in such black/white extreme ways, you prove you're actually the same as those type of people, you see things in black/white. you hide behind a veiled idea of 'morality'...guess what, so do they.
Sure, you're passive..but the underlying ideas you hold would eventually lead to intolerance.
if there were 1.5billion gnostic christians, managing that many ESPECIALLY with constant interference from the evil side over centuries would no doubt lead to various extremities.

3) your views of the demiurge. Assuming a demiurge is the cause of all problems in life, why aren't you opposed to the ultimate God/Essence or whatever power allowing a demiurge to exist?
furthermore anything and everything that enables the cause of material attainment has to be considered evil and opposed.
So for example you would most certainly need to be against the media, movie, tv industries, major corporations.
Well, what have you done about it?

You wrote
We are not pacifists but historically have done our ideological fighting with good arguments instead of violence.

because 'good arguments' really change things don't they?

"hey porn industry, you people are wrong you know? gnosticism is the way forwardz, please stahp doing it"
i can see this working.


4) 'other ideologies'
you mean like Marxist russia where they persecuted religions on a level unheard of before?
did gnostic christians fight the soviet union or muslim jihadists?

conclusion: Yes we should actively oppose evil but it's like the Quran says


190 And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
191 And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
192 But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
193 And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

I stopped at idiot as I think that name callers are really looking at themselves.

Reciprocity is fair play and I am not interested in playing your name calling game.

If you believe what you said, why bother with me at all. I tend to ignore idiots.

Why would you bother with one that you name as such? That to me is what only an idiot would do.

Regards
DL

 

[AspiringSoul]

I stopped at idiot as I think that name callers are really looking at themselves.

Reciprocity is fair play and I am not interested in playing your name calling game.

If you believe what you said, why bother with me at all. I tend to ignore idiots.

Why would you bother with one that you name as such? That to me is what only an idiot would do.

Regards
DL

Look at what you called Allah and Yahweh ie the same God
Maybe if you learnt a thing or two you'd realize Jesus also worshipped the same God of Israel
Not once did Jesus attack God as the problem but he sure did look at hearts and minds of his nation...because that's the source of the God energy they were manifesting
Hence even Jesus told them the temple would be destroyed ...which means he endorsed their punishment...same God.
So your praise the "God of Jesus" is just fantasy that doesn't reflect the real truth.
I would give respect it you didn't claim to be a Christian.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Look at what you called Allah and Yahweh ie the same God
Maybe if you learnt a thing or two you'd realize Jesus also worshipped the same God of Israel
Not once did Jesus attack God as the problem but he sure did look at hearts and minds of his nation...because that's the source of the God energy they were manifesting
Hence even Jesus told them the temple would be destroyed ...which means he endorsed their punishment...same God.
So your praise the "God of Jesus" is just fantasy that doesn't reflect the real truth.
I would give respect it you didn't claim to be a Christian.

I do not claim to be a Christian so do not insult me by naming me that.

I am a Gnostic Christian. As John Lennon said, the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.
We are God seekers and not idol worshipers like Christians and Muslims.

I have labelled Yahweh and Allah correctly, immoral pricks, and my view is bolstered by the fact that no one is calling me out to prove it because they are afraid to look at them and their policies from a moral perspective and know they would lose the argument.

Are you game for that debate? If so, start an O.P. and I am there for that.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Not once did Jesus attack God
.

I see this as a false statement.

The way I read scriptures, Jesus dismissed the Jewish God as, like himself, here to serve man. Not to be served by man.

You might recall that Jesus came to the rescue of a man who was going to be stoned for working on the Sabbath.

Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. I extrapolate from that that he would also say that religions and Gods are created for man and not man for them.

The scriptural fact that he ascended to heaven and took control of the judgement seat at God's right hand and became the judge of man proves that what I put is accurate.

God is to serve us and not us serve God. God, at the end of the day, is a set of rules and laws and we create those to serve us. Right?

God is not here to be followed but rules and laws are. That is why Moses came down with laws/commandments and not with a God.

Regards
DL

 

[AspiringSoul]

I see this as a false statement.

The way I read scriptures, Jesus dismissed the Jewish God as, like himself, here to serve man. Not to be served by man.

You might recall that Jesus came to the rescue of a man who was going to be stoned for working on the Sabbath.

Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. I extrapolate from that that he would also say that religions and Gods are created for man and not man for them.

The scriptural fact that he ascended to heaven and took control of the judgement seat at God's right hand and became the judge of man proves that what I put is accurate.

God is to serve us and not us serve God. God, at the end of the day, is a set of rules and laws and we create those to serve us. Right?

God is not here to be followed but rules and laws are. That is why Moses came down with laws/commandments and not with a God.

Regards
DL

Not a single time did he ever dismiss God or say what you've said. He merely highlighted the corruption amongst the religious elite.

Furthermore the aspect of God which Jesus was trying to open the jews to...was God's Immanence, because there's a balance between His Transcendence and Immanence.

Unlike you, i don't jump to dumb conclusions and I can clearly see Jesus came as a fulfillment of the OT, not to reject it.
Your view that Yahweh was a prick...and a/the demiurge means Moses was def not representing the 'good side'
yet Jesus evidently believed in Moses
Matthew 17:3
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

basically you have absolutely no business ever associating yourself with the new testament

The NT directly quotes from the Torah. for example in Deuteronomy 18:18 the israelites lost consciousness when they HEARD the 'voice of God' (Yahweh) and so they asked for an intermediatery between themselves as Yahweh.
So in Deteronomy 18 theyre told

15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.


and this is later confirmed in the NT as Jesus Christ. So it's impossible to seperate them
UNLESS you believe in an alternative narrative which i suspect you do, that's completely seperate from these texts...and if that's the case then you evidently believe in 'another gospel'. More than that you believe in a different Jesus....one who could not possibly be the jewish messiah since the entire legitimacy of Jesus springs up from OT prophecies/ideas...and the OT=Yahweh.

 

[AspiringSoul]

I do not claim to be a Christian so do not insult me by naming me that.

I am a Gnostic Christian. As John Lennon said, the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.
We are God seekers and not idol worshipers like Christians and Muslims.

I have labelled Yahweh and Allah correctly, immoral pricks, and my view is bolstered by the fact that no one is calling me out to prove it because they are afraid to look at them and their policies from a moral perspective and know they would lose the argument.

Are you game for that debate? If so, start an O.P. and I am there for that.

Regards
DL

I've kind of already challenged your point here
if you believe Yahweh is an immoral prick then by that sake token the entire OT is false, thereby nullifying Jesus of the NT. your entire use of Jesus becomes N/A.
I would respect you if you were totally divorced from the entire abrahimic tradition
even a religion like sikhism, so so acknowledges the prophets and avatars and therefore it cannot totally divorce itself from their legitimacy.
According to the guru granth sahib, there is only one truth and ONE GOD but religions all have different ideas of who that God is. What's important is that we have a personal relationship with God and don't just follow empty rituals.

What ive done is brought up the idea of collective thoughtforms that manifest the God energy and therefore in my eyes Yahweh is not strictly speaking THE Absolute God...but a collective thoughtform of God that ultimately reflects the israelite/jewish mind. Therefore if there's any criticism of Yahweh, it is really for me, a criticism of the hearts and minds of that nation. However the way this works is

if they simply opened their hearts and minds to God's Mercy,they would receive it..but that also depends on their authenticity ie if they're worshipping money/power in place of God, then how well can they really manifest God's Mercy? what they see is a reflection of their own mind. This is a beast of a topic to understand though, you know, understanding the nature of unconscious hypocrisy and subsequent projects in the physical world.

Your criticism of Allah however is far worse given islam had developed a lot and the Quran makes it very clear throughout that Allah is ALL Merciful and bestows Mercy on anyone who sincerely seeks it.
The only questioning thing in islam is slavery, but if it helps in islam AT LEAST
-slaves have rights too..for example you couldn't force labour on a slave that he/she could not handle and also were meant to help. You couldn't just have sex with a slave in the form of straight up r*pe, it had to be consensual just like in a regular marraige. The legitimacy of sex with a slave is just in dealing with the 'legal' shariah stuff ie 'it is allowed' that's all. It's like saying 'you're allowed to have sex with an employee who you employ purely for sex'. It is also FAR superior to free slaves and not own them.
-Eternal hell fire.

care to show me what else is particularly cruel about Allah?
of course this is still alongside the theme ive discussed before, collective thoughtforms
thus in the modern age muslims are suffering heavily and what im questioning is the condition of the collective thoughtform and the dominant monkey mind narratives, bringing about our collective suffering.

what exactly has your religion offered as a superior truth?
jack shit, as far as im concerned
you mean to tell me it's 2000 years old but has so far accomplished very little? so all these people in 2000 years who had no knowledge of gnostic christianity could not know the 'true God/Essence' because the religion that's meant to be the truth, was disabled?
Like that's the best this God/Essence can do for us, whilst pissing all over us with 2 dominant religions that in your view are false religions?

 

[Alanantic]

No, because you're probably wrong. Lumping things together is how haters survive. There's good people and truth in all religions...along with the opposite.

 

[Aero]

I think that in some cases opposition is a clever way to latch onto things. From what I've learned is that all of these opposing ideologies borrowed from each other heavily. And history shows that they only helped each other. Religions, sects, and cults all trying to fight each other. Nobody won those fights. They just motivated each other. That's not the point of opposition, or is it?

From my angle opposing something gives you little room to maneuver. In a chess game that's like having your Queen boxed up. You would need to escalate your strategy. So picture that on a world wide scale, and it really does seem like a game. I don't doubt many people believe their opposition is justified but they aren't winning anything. That's why I don't think about things in those type of terms.

I appreciate people getting hype about their respective faiths though. That's my ideology. But it's not an argument. This isn't debate class and I'm not here to give points and hand out prizes. If you all seriously believe that there's some evil god out there. Than the only real method of opposition to take would be its absolute destruction. Fortunately I'm not sure I believe in such a deity. I think it's too convenient. Oh people act like animals? It must be Satan.

Suuuure it is. Like I said my ideology goes back to not thinking in certain terms. People are flawed. The world is imperfect. Healthy vs Unhealthy. By doing so I give myself room. I'm not clouding myself with emotions. I wouldn't crumble before Satan. I would Steal his pitchfork and rip his horns off

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Not a single time did he ever dismiss God

Who is sitting on the heavenly judgement seat?

Jesus is and that is dismissing God.

Furthermore the aspect of God which Jesus was trying to open the jews to...was God's Immanence, because there's a balance between His Transcendence and Immanence.

That is quite the assumption.

You have no way of knowing anything about the supernatural or God. If you do, tell us how you know.

Regards
DL