If God is done with Israel, what happens now?

[AspiringSoul]

Smh quote the Bible out of context and then call it a prophetic LAW...

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Smh quote the Bible out of context and then call it a prophetic LAW...

I think law is an overstatement, as people are apt to make when trying to emphasise a point.

I think it is more accurate to say a "frequently observed scriptural pattern we do well to be aware of" but that makes for a long title ;-)

 

[TokiEl]

No the children aren't the church FFS...
I have already quoted revelation 12...her children obey the commandments AND believe in Jesus. The two together have no basis in Christianity.
You have no connection to the wilderness. In the old testament the wilderness was always Paran.
Even Paul said the Jews were in Sinai which is in Arabia (the real Sinai in modern day said

In Rev 12 the woman is a picture of Israel who came on plane loads to what was a waste wilderness... but now blooming again because of the Jews reviving the land. Israel's or the woman's offspring are the true Church... Christians who actually obey the Ten Commandments and have a testimony of how Jesus Christ came into their lives and changed them for good.

As for the holocaust...so that means it's justified to colonise Palestinian land and homes? They Palestinians have lived in the land longer than the Jews

Israel is God's own land. So Muslims have no business there. They are squatters... and violent ones at that.

Of course everyone knows the Israelis have a lot in common with Nazis
Netenyahu has even gone on record to say Hitler was good and innocent Lololol.
Historically rome/Europe was the persecturor of Jews.

The mufti of Jerusalem went to Berlin and talked with Hitler about the growing Jewish nuisance in Israel. When the Jews began to come back in numbers in the 1880s... the relationship between them and Muslims went sour. And absolutely devoid of any goodwill Islam attacked those few Jews who were rescued from the Holocaust.

The dragon is waging war against Islam.

The dragon could care less about his servile servants. At the end of the day you are just food to him.

 

[AspiringSoul]

I stopped at Israel as a wilderness...Jesus wept.

 

[AspiringSoul]

I think law is an overstatement, as people are apt to make when trying to emphasise a point.

I think it is more accurate to say a "frequently observed scriptural pattern we do well to be aware of" but that makes for a long title ;-)

Most prophecies are not repeated
The only ones that are...are already given in plain writing
Ie
The whore of Babylon as a repeat of ancient babylon.
Look man you can doubt me but read Habakkuk 2 about Babylon...then read Zechariah 5 about the Jews. It's telling us the Jews as the wicked woman will be taken to Babylon until her house is built there. This is pretty much telling us about the whore of Babylon. You can find multiple connected themes in either chapter and then u can also gain insight from Jeremiah 2, 3.

Then there are the Beast prophecies ie about Rome
the legs of iron..past.
the feet of iron/clay..present and future

I'm not stupid but these Christians are liars who have misinterpreted Daniels prophecies about the Greek empires ie king of the north and south and then due to their utter hatred for islam..applied them to Islam.
they've imagined some Muslim or Catholic antichrist who persecuted Jews and tried to fit it in. Then they've claimed "law of repetition".

I'm not zealous...but seeing such utter ignorance and lies has made me lose nearly all respect for faux Christians.

There isn't one dumb statement but too many. Just look at eltokiels posts....
Jesus himself said God would kick out the Jews (fulfilled in 70ad) and replace them with other more deserving tenants.
Yet this guy claims Muslims are squatters and violent ones.
The longest lasting period of peace in the holy land has occured under Muslim rule. Enough Jews have also attested to that fact.

The violence only came during the crusades, colonialism and presence of zionists.
Before Muslims...it was byzantines Jews and sassanids.and before that the Romans and Greeks etc.

Also the holy land was not a wilderness.
The Ezekiel 38 prophecy of gog and Magog says it will be at some point and that is a post Euphrates war , antichrist and he felt post mystery Babylon context.
I have no doubt one day they're all going to slaughter each other on a mass scale.
Ezekiel 38 is messianic...a land with no borders or walls.

I have already spoken of this...I was mocking how trump and Israel are all about walls and yet trump is compared to Cyrus the Great...an actual messiah.

I feel sorry for anyone who can't even see what is most obvious...it is a mockery of God's true religion and he idea of the messianic kingdom.

 

[bible_student]

We should all be striving our utmost, on a daily basis, to be living by the two great Commandments given in The Law and the two new Commandments brought from God by Jesus, as the Koran also confirms.

The two Great Commandments are written in the Gospels of Matthew:-

22:36 Master, which [is] the Great Commandment in The Law?
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the First and Great Commandment.
22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two Commandments hang all The Law and the Prophets.

and Mark:-

12:29 And Jesus answered him, The First of all the Commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength and serve Him only: this [is] the First commandment.
12:31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
12:32 And the lawyer said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the Truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but He:
12:33 And to love Him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
12:34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the Kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him [any question].

The two New Commandments that Jesus brought from God are these:

John
13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Matthew
7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

If we put these four Commandments together and a person loves and serves only God and His Laws and truly loves his neighbour as much as he loves himself and in the manner that Jesus did (and he gave his life for you) how could you possibly wrong anyone, whom you love as much as you love yourself and are willing to give your life for? You cannot and therefore you will automatically not break The Law and not suffer as Paul said, any of the curses or penalty clauses. Jesus said, "Whatsoever you do to any man, you do it to me."

The Moral Law of the Torah is still in effect today as it will be forever* - Matthew 5:17-20.

Jesus came to abolish the priesthood except for himself alone as the sole representative of the priesthood, being both High-Priest and King, after the order of Melchizedek.

He told his followers including the apostles and it is written in the Gospel of Matthew, that they must not be priests (rabbi) and must not be called father:-

23:8 But be not ye called priest (etc.): for One is your Teacher, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
23:9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.

Jesus told his true followers, and it is written, again in Matthew, that they must not go to church and must not pray in church or in public, as the hypocrites do.

6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the churches and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father in private; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Therefore the parts of The Old Covenant that relate to the priesthood, churches and the animal sacrifices, for redemption from sin, are now obsolete.

* - As confirmed by the Koran - the Gospel of Unity - the 3rd part of the bible that God gave to Mohammed.

Sura
3:1. A. L. M. (Almighty. Loving. Merciful.)
3:2. Allah (God). There is no God but He,- the Living, the Self-Existing (YHWH - "I AM"), Eternal.
3:3. It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it and He sent down The Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the Criterion (of Judgment between right and wrong).

7:55. Call on your Lord with humility and in private: for God loveth not those who trespass beyond bounds.

32:22. And who does more wrong than one to whom are recited the Signs of his Lord, and who then turns away therefrom? Verily from those who transgress We shall exact (due) Retribution.
32:23. We did indeed aforetime give the Book (Torah) to Moses: be then not in doubt of its (The Torah) reaching (thee): and We made it a Guide to the Children of Israel.

Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the holy ones: here [are] they that KEEP the Commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[Thunderian]

I got excited there thinking you were going to even Attempt to answer each point but as usual you guys are a failure at this game.

No one answers you because your interpretation of scripture is bizarre and no one has a single common reference with you.

 

[AspiringSoul]

No one answers you because your interpretation of scripture is bizarre and no one has a single common reference with you.

the whole point of answering someone is to present a better perspective or disagree and offer reasons why.
My opinion differs from yours...but the references are all in the bible and im very thorough when mentioning the chapters/verses. So we're still dealing with the same content.


you are referring to the Revelation 12 interpretation where ive stated that the 'wilderness' is a reference to islam.

6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God
When the israelites fled Egypt, they also went to the wilderness and we know it is arabia ie saudi territory. Ron Wyatt's videos on this are full of evidence. So the woman fleeing to the wilderness to escape persecution, totally a no-brainer with regards to it's location.

Can you present anything better? i already know you can't.

Now how this is/was fulfilled i cant obv say since God knows the extent of intermixing and conversion and where it leaves the 'remnant'.
Then you consider the context...byzantine-sassanid wars, fall out...jews did escape to arabia.
'place prepared by God'
this is a subjective one from my perspective yet i know you deny islam's legitimacy even though isaiah 42 too said

Let the wilderness and its cities lift up their voices,
The villages where Kedar lives.
Let the inhabitants of [c]Sela shout for joy,
Let them shout joyfully from the tops of the mountains.
12
Let them give glory to the Lord
And declare His praise in the islands and coastlands.
13
The Lord will go forth like a warrior,
He will stir up His zeal like a man of war;
He will shout out, yes, He will raise a war cry.
He will prevail [mightily] against His enemies.

islam's relationship with the holy land, presence on the temple mt, belief in Jesus (as His Word and messiah) etc obv are not some coincidence, but even texts like the above lend weight to my argument. You have no place with this text, they dont speak about your religion or land.
Even the attacks on islam as 'violent' 'spread by the sword' ironically are what verse 13 above is suggestion.
dont YOU people call my prophet 'prophet of DOOM'?

The Lord will go forth like a warrior,
He will stir up His zeal like a man of war;
He will shout out, yes, He will raise a war cry.
He will prevail [mightily] against His enemies.

Then you have articles like this
https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/so-what-did-the-muslims-do-for-the-jews-1.33597
So, what did the Muslims do for the Jews?
The JC Essay

• Islam saved Jewry. This is an unpopular, discomforting claim in the modern world. But it is a historical truth.

it's true, the byzantines had just massacred 20000 jews in jerusalem. They banned them from returning..after the byzantine-sassanid wars. So islams appearance in a key time, saved jews. When you apply this to the Rev 12 prophecy, it makes perfect sense.

We KNOW the dragon and beast are part of the same system, but we know the beast is Rome (Daniel proves that). We know it was rome that persecuted jews...so to escape from rome, where did they go?


so that she would be nourished there for a thousand two hundred and sixty days

from the time umar conquered Jerusalem to 1948 minus the crusade era.

637 to 1099=462
1187 to 1948=761
1223 solar years, put into lunar years it comes to very very close to 1260 yrs
surely this is not a coincidence...it never is.

17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went off to wage war on the rest of her children (seed), those who keep and obey the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus [holding firmly to it and bearing witness to Him].

'rest of her children' ie the lost tribes....?
For example the Pashtun in Afghanistan are lost tribes....who's bombing them???

i cant make this up

obey the commandments of God and believe in Jesus? along with all the other text above, this applies to muslims.




Secondly
tokiel talked about muslims as violent squatters...but totally forgot the parable of tenants, or the history of israelites/jews when it comes to violence.
i mean Jesus said

Mark 12
4 Then he sent another servant to them; they struck this man on the head and treated him shamefully. 5 He sent still another, and that one they killed. He sent many others; some of them they beat, others they killed.
6 “He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’
7 “But the tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8 So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

9 “What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others

So to forget all of this as tokiel did, it is comical.



furthermore ive gone into detail 3-4 times inc with you on Mystery babylon's identity...i have given clear reference points
Habakkuk 2 (about babylon)
Zecheriah 5 (a prophecy about the jewish nation/wicked woman becoming the new babylon..it references clearly the curse as 'charging interest' ie the one who swears falsely, the witness and the theif, this is a clear reference to usury)
Jeremiah 2, 3 (full of linked themes to the above 2 chapters). adulteress, whore, worships stones/trees, referenced in the above chapters also)
Matthew 23:27
and when this is all properly understood in light of modern events/politics/economics and social dynamics and you compare to Rev 17/18
there is not a person on earth who could tell me im wrong, it is all there...crystal clear.



you won't even find a flaw in my position, for example im the only muslim who's highlighted Quran chapter 17 where God tells us HE can bless the jews again..but they will be judged if they are evil again. verse 104 in that chapter also clearly tells us about the future redemption of israel/the messianic kingdom. So i am not biased in a sense of denying what is promised to the nation. I believe in the patriarchs, believe in the story, promises etc.
YOU are the ones who've forgotten large parts of it
for example God's promise to ismael? totally rejected and forgotten. A promise like that to Hagar was supposed to be fulfilled....and islam is the fulfillment.
God blessed ishmael, christians absolutely hate him (due to their hatred of islam more than anything).


modern israel is in every way possible anti-messianic, that does mean anti-christ right? think about it
the messianic kingdom, a land with no borders/walls, weapons
'not my might nor power, but by my spirit'

israel, is the complete opposite. it is comical when israel has built walls and you're all praising trump aka 'let's build a huge wall'
and then claiming he is the new Cyrus (who was a messiah!!)
it is also funny since, the whole 'first time in 2000 years' arguments are a riot...considering jews nearly built their temple in thr 7th century AD in the lifetime of prophet Mohammad...and the structure was destroyed by christians.

BUT
personally, i feel that arab nationalism and post-colonial islamic revivalism, aswell as false promises from the british....all coming head to head with zionist ideology led to the arab-israeli conflict.
i have no problem with jews building a third temple...i dont regard the mosque on it 'the third holiest site in islam' because the entire temple mount itself IS the masjid al aqsa. I don't believe muslims should have built it...and i don't believe Umar built it (it contradicts his own words).

 

[AspiringSoul]

@bible_student I appreciate your approach, but the Quran is not a gospel. It commemorates the gospel given to christians.
The injeel, in my understanding is summed up in the Beatitudes ie the 'good news of the kingdom of heaven'

 

[elsbet]

@AspiringSoul

The two together have no basis in Christianity.

Technically, that is Christianity. By their fruits you will know them. Js.

 

[Violette]

@bible_student I appreciate your approach, but the Quran is not a gospel. It commemorates the gospel given to christians.

How? It denies a lot of the gospel’s key principles....like the crucifixion and resurrection. That’s a pretty big discrepancy

 

[elsbet]

We should all be striving our utmost, on a daily basis, to be living by the two great Commandments given in The Law and the two new Commandments brought from God by Jesus, as the Koran also confirms.

The two Great Commandments are written in the Gospels of Matthew:-

22:36 Master, which [is] the Great Commandment in The Law?
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the First and Great Commandment.
22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two Commandments hang all The Law and the Prophets.

and Mark:-

12:29 And Jesus answered him, The First of all the Commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength and serve Him only: this [is] the First commandment.
12:31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
12:32 And the lawyer said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the Truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but He:
12:33 And to love Him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
12:34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the Kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him [any question].

The two New Commandments that Jesus brought from God are these:

John
13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Matthew
7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

If we put these four Commandments together and a person loves and serves only God and His Laws and truly loves his neighbour as much as he loves himself and in the manner that Jesus did (and he gave his life for you) how could you possibly wrong anyone, whom you love as much as you love yourself and are willing to give your life for? You cannot and therefore you will automatically not break The Law and not suffer as Paul said, any of the curses or penalty clauses. Jesus said, "Whatsoever you do to any man, you do it to me."

The Moral Law of the Torah is still in effect today as it will be forever* - Matthew 5:17-20.

Jesus came to abolish the priesthood except for himself alone as the sole representative of the priesthood, being both High-Priest and King, after the order of Melchizedek.

He told his followers including the apostles and it is written in the Gospel of Matthew, that they must not be priests (rabbi) and must not be called father:-

23:8 But be not ye called priest (etc.): for One is your Teacher, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
23:9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.

Jesus told his true followers, and it is written, again in Matthew, that they must not go to church and must not pray in church or in public, as the hypocrites do.

6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the churches and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father in private; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Therefore the parts of The Old Covenant that relate to the priesthood, churches and the animal sacrifices, for redemption from sin, are now obsolete.

* - As confirmed by the Koran - the Gospel of Unity - the 3rd part of the bible that God gave to Mohammed.

Sura
3:1. A. L. M. (Almighty. Loving. Merciful.)
3:2. Allah (God). There is no God but He,- the Living, the Self-Existing (YHWH - "I AM"), Eternal.
3:3. It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it and He sent down The Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the Criterion (of Judgment between right and wrong).

7:55. Call on your Lord with humility and in private: for God loveth not those who trespass beyond bounds.

32:22. And who does more wrong than one to whom are recited the Signs of his Lord, and who then turns away therefrom? Verily from those who transgress We shall exact (due) Retribution.
32:23. We did indeed aforetime give the Book (Torah) to Moses: be then not in doubt of its (The Torah) reaching (thee): and We made it a Guide to the Children of Israel.

Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the holy ones: here [are] they that KEEP the Commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

No offense but the quran is not part of the Bible.

Spoiler

 

[DesertRose]

No offense but the Quran is not part of the Bible.

Agreed. May God guides us and keep us on His straight path. Ameen

https://quran.com/?local=en

caption under the video:
This is a short interview with a renowned Bible scholar who talks about why he left Christianity. Remember to never give up on God Almighty if you want to be guided call on the Creator alone and He will guide you. ...... learn more visit www.TheDeenShow.com

 

[AspiringSoul]

How? It denies a lot of the gospel’s key principles....like the crucifixion and resurrection. That’s a pretty big discrepancy

It depends on how deep your knowledge of the contexts really really goes..and you also have to consider the hikmah/wisdom in any verse inc in the bible.
Throughout the Quran, Allah has spoken of the Scripture AND the Wisdom, ie Allah revealed both to His messengers.
Now read the verse in my sig...so you have to understand there are much deeper contexts behind certain types of verses.

For example..many muslims insist on saying that the only truth is 'Quran and sunnah (hadith)'
GREAT....no worries..but

here's a test
Chapter 17 is called Al-Isra and is named after the night journey of the prophet SAW where he was 'transported' to Jerusalem (like Ezekiel was). There he led a prayer on the Temple Mt where every previous prophet stood behind him. Even though they've passed away, this was a kind of 'transfiguration' experience.
Now this chapter 17 is in the context relevant to Jerusalem/the temple mount.

check out these verses

4. And We conveyed to the Children of Israel in the Scripture: You will commit evil on earth twice, and you will rise to a great height.
5. When the first of the two promises came true, We sent against you servants of Ours, possessing great might, and they ransacked your homes. It was a promise fulfilled.
6. Then We gave you back your turn against them, and supplied you with wealth and children, and made you more numerous.
7. If you work righteousness, you work righteousness for yourselves; and if you commit evil, you do so against yourselves. Then, when the second promise comes true, they will make your faces filled with sorrow, and enter the Temple as they entered it the first time, and utterly destroy all that falls into their power.
8. Perhaps your Lord will have mercy on you. But if you revert, We will revert. We have made Hell a prison for the disbelievers.

Now, to appreciate these verses, to understand the depth of these events..one would have to read the entire bible...
without ever reading the bible, there is no chance a muslim would even begin to understand 'what happened'.
I mean i sit here and i talk with ease about prophecies in Daniel, Habakkuk, Zechariah, Jeremiah etc and that'sjust talking about Babylon. Then you have the backstory of what happened during the Roman invasion/destruction of Jerusalem.

Are you with me so far?
In fact just read verse 8 again
8. Perhaps your Lord will have mercy on you. But if you revert, We will revert. We have made Hell a prison for the disbelievers.
(revert to your sins)

When Allah is saying 'Perhaps your Lord will have mercy on you' what most people who read this would not even know is that during this specific time, the Jews had just returned to control Jerusalem under Sassanid support (kind of like zionist israel under british/american support). That period lasted 23 years.
However, it also leaves room for the future ie it means God could at ANY time of His choosing, have 'Mercy' on the jews and make them a nation again.
How many muslims even know this? so the general consensus of muslims is irrelevant to me on certain matters...as far as i can see most muslims do not grasp this.

Now let me go further, here is verse 104
104. After him, We said to the Children of Israel, “Inhabit the land, and when the promise of the Hereafter arrives, We will bring you all together.”
in the context this verse is actually referring to the messianic kingdom, but read this translation/interpretation
now read others

(5) And We said to the Children of Israel after him: "Dwell in the land, then, when the final and the last promise comes near [i.e. the Day of Resurrection or the descent of Christ ['Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) عليهما السلام on the earth], We shall bring you altogether as mixed crowd (gathered out of various nations). (Tafsir Al-Qurtubi,).
(سورة الإسراء, Al-Israa, Chapter #17, Verse #104)

(4) And We said after Pharaoh to the Children of Israel, "Dwell in the land, and when there comes the promise of the Hereafter, We will bring you forth in [one] gathering."
(سورة الإسراء, Al-Israa, Chapter #17, Verse #104)


(2) And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.
(سورة الإسراء, Al-Israa, Chapter #17, Verse #104)
^^
This is the Pickthall translation. Pickthall was a convert to islam, a former christian..this helps in his interpretation here.

5) And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment.
(سورة الإسراء, Al-Israa, Chapter #17, Verse #104)


(2) And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land (of promise)": but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.
(سورة الإسراء, Al-Israa, Chapter #17, Verse #104)

^^
notice these words are in past tense, notice how it differs completely from the rest.



Now i'll do the same with Surah 4:157
(1) That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
(سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)

(1) And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
(سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)

(1) And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
(سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)


(1) And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them [the resemblance of 'Îsa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)], and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) عليهما السلام]:
(سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)
^^
This is the Mohsin Khan translation, in his versions he writes his own interpretation [in brackets like this]. Notice how he is claiming the replacement theory?
This is actually a dangerous technique because this way he's influencing people's opinions using his own, ie 'adding' to the Quran. It may be in brackets but it is still sneaky.

Now the next one is even worse
(2) And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
(سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)


What i said before also applies here. When a person has no knowledge of previous scriptures/contexts..their interpretation/translation will reflect their own ignorance.


Here's my own OPINION/interpretation using this translation

(1) That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
(سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)

firstly you have to think about how historically most muslims didnt even really think about this topic. It's only in the post-colonial english speaking context where these debates became commonplace. Then people like Ahmad Deedat came and others with other interpretations. These views were on film, audio and book format and shared all over the english speaking muslim world. After that youtube made it all 'blow up' so in alarge way even your assumptions about this verse are influenced by these modern contexts.

So here's how mine differs and i'll give obvious answers why

1) That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary

WHO are 'they'? the christians, romans, jews? that would be wrong. Yet most don't know.
in the truest context, the SADUCDEE sect.
What did the sadducees believe? they believe in the body. They disbelieved in the resurrection, the afterlife etc.

See the pharisees believed in spirituality and were hellenised, they even believed in reincarnation. The pharisees were money/power hungry but you can even see in the Gospel accounts, the pharisees did not have a theological disagreement with Jesus. They tried to challenge him but were shut down each time, they were silenced, knowing he is right. They didnt follow him because he exposed the big pharisee rabbis.

However the sadducees, whole diff game. They wanted him DEAD. They threw stones at him and were certainly the ones who caused the crucifixion.
so in the context the 'THEY' part of the verse is very important and an area EVERY other interpretation ive ever read has missed out on.


Does this additional knowledge change anything?
it changes a lot..because now we're considering this in a context that applies to thier (the sadducees) mindset.

but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them,

So they didnt kill or crucify him........it only appeared that way.
What does that mean? if it appeared to them....how so?
You know where the muslim replacement theory comes from? it is a very bad interpretation of the gnostic text, the 'gnostic apocalypse of Peter'
http://gnosis.org/naghamm/apopet.html
read it..
(im not claiming to believe in this text per se, but i am sharing it for yoyu to grasp what other muslims have been misinterpreting in the first place)

When he had said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said "What do I see, O Lord? That it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughing on the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?"

The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me."

get it? muslims have been so damn stupid they've even misinterpreted this text and assumed some other dude took on the likeness of Jesus.

YET in the same text it later says
he whom they crucified is the first-born, and the home of demons, and the stony vessel in which they dwell, of Elohim, of the cross, which is under the Law. But he who stands near him is the living Savior, the first in him, whom they seized and released, who stands joyfully looking at those who did him violence, while they are divided among themselves. Therefore he laughs at their lack of perception, knowing that they are born blind

What this actually means is that the physical body is not the real self, it is made in the likeness of the spirit. That is all.


So going back to the verse in the Quran
but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them,
he certainly did, in the physical form, die, get crucified..
but the key point is, the sadducees believed this meant he was DEAD, never to return again, no resurrection, no afterlife, just death..an athiestic death.
get it?

The Quran makes it clear that this is not the case in general eg
Pickthall: Think not of those, who are slain in the way of Allah, as dead. Nay, they are living. With their Lord they have provision.
in islam, if one puts the carnal self to death in the persuit of Allah...ie gives up all attachments to wordly things and then dies for the 'sake of Allah'..that person is a martyr and is 'not dead but alive'.
get it?
even if they die a physical death, this is merely the illusion/appearance of death.

Actually to go deeper, in islam...when we die in the physical, our soul is imprisoned in the grave ie hades/sheol. There, the soul remains attached to this world and suffers according to the depth of it's attachments until it is finally rid of sin, or it remains there until the day of judgement.
THIS IS DEATH!!..the imprisonment in barzakh, is death. We are told a 99 headed serpent bites us according to our 'sins'.
the serpent is our carnal soul...the 'biting' represents the extent we suffer when we cannot fulfill our earthly desires.

So to be free from the carnal/serpent imprisonment in the grave, means to be alive. It i said the martyrs are like birds in paradise, free...to roam where they want, totally alive.

To anyone out there christian or muslim who attacks my views above and says 'your views are different' 'no one agrees'
it is just ignorance of the collective truth we share because i know christianity cant disagree
ie Acts 2 Peter even said 'for death had no hold on him'
ie the grave rejected him...
furthermore...there are muslims who will say
"in the hadith it says Jesus is going to die and be buried, that means he hasnt died already because you only die once"
yet...Lazarus died twice!!..


And if all of this is not enough, then i urge you to read the book of Wisdom chapter 2 & 3 because everything ive said, is also said there (in prophecy).


As for the resurrection..
there is nothing writen about it whatsoever.
You have to appreciate that Allah revealed the Quran with the wisdom of considering it's target audience
do you think new arab muslims were capable of understanding matters that even the jews with all their knowledge and philosophy couldnt grasp?

 

[Violette]

It depends on how deep your knowledge of the contexts really really goes..and you also have to consider the hikmah/wisdom in any verse inc in the bible.
Throughout the Quran, Allah has spoken of the Scripture AND the Wisdom, ie Allah revealed both to His messengers.
Now read the verse in my sig...so you have to understand there are much deeper contexts behind certain types of verses.

For example..many muslims insist on saying that the only truth is 'Quran and sunnah (hadith)'
GREAT....no worries..but

here's a test
Chapter 17 is called Al-Isra and is named after the night journey of the prophet SAW where he was 'transported' to Jerusalem (like Ezekiel was). There he led a prayer on the Temple Mt where every previous prophet stood behind him. Even though they've passed away, this was a kind of 'transfiguration' experience.
Now this chapter 17 is in the context relevant to Jerusalem/the temple mount.

check out these verses

4. And We conveyed to the Children of Israel in the Scripture: You will commit evil on earth twice, and you will rise to a great height.
5. When the first of the two promises came true, We sent against you servants of Ours, possessing great might, and they ransacked your homes. It was a promise fulfilled.
6. Then We gave you back your turn against them, and supplied you with wealth and children, and made you more numerous.
7. If you work righteousness, you work righteousness for yourselves; and if you commit evil, you do so against yourselves. Then, when the second promise comes true, they will make your faces filled with sorrow, and enter the Temple as they entered it the first time, and utterly destroy all that falls into their power.
8. Perhaps your Lord will have mercy on you. But if you revert, We will revert. We have made Hell a prison for the disbelievers.

Now, to appreciate these verses, to understand the depth of these events..one would have to read the entire bible...
without ever reading the bible, there is no chance a muslim would even begin to understand 'what happened'.
I mean i sit here and i talk with ease about prophecies in Daniel, Habakkuk, Zechariah, Jeremiah etc and that'sjust talking about Babylon. Then you have the backstory of what happened during the Roman invasion/destruction of Jerusalem.

Are you with me so far?
In fact just read verse 8 again
8. Perhaps your Lord will have mercy on you. But if you revert, We will revert. We have made Hell a prison for the disbelievers.
(revert to your sins)

When Allah is saying 'Perhaps your Lord will have mercy on you' what most people who read this would not even know is that during this specific time, the Jews had just returned to control Jerusalem under Sassanid support (kind of like zionist israel under british/american support). That period lasted 23 years.
However, it also leaves room for the future ie it means God could at ANY time of His choosing, have 'Mercy' on the jews and make them a nation again.
How many muslims even know this? so the general consensus of muslims is irrelevant to me on certain matters...as far as i can see most muslims do not grasp this.

Now let me go further, here is verse 104
104. After him, We said to the Children of Israel, “Inhabit the land, and when the promise of the Hereafter arrives, We will bring you all together.”
in the context this verse is actually referring to the messianic kingdom, but read this translation/interpretation
now read others

(5) And We said to the Children of Israel after him: "Dwell in the land, then, when the final and the last promise comes near [i.e. the Day of Resurrection or the descent of Christ ['Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) عليهما السلام on the earth], We shall bring you altogether as mixed crowd (gathered out of various nations). (Tafsir Al-Qurtubi,).
(سورة الإسراء, Al-Israa, Chapter #17, Verse #104)

(4) And We said after Pharaoh to the Children of Israel, "Dwell in the land, and when there comes the promise of the Hereafter, We will bring you forth in [one] gathering."
(سورة الإسراء, Al-Israa, Chapter #17, Verse #104)


(2) And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.
(سورة الإسراء, Al-Israa, Chapter #17, Verse #104)
^^
This is the Pickthall translation. Pickthall was a convert to islam, a former christian..this helps in his interpretation here.

5) And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment.
(سورة الإسراء, Al-Israa, Chapter #17, Verse #104)


(2) And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land (of promise)": but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.
(سورة الإسراء, Al-Israa, Chapter #17, Verse #104)

^^
notice these words are in past tense, notice how it differs completely from the rest.



Now i'll do the same with Surah 4:157
(1) That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
(سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)

(1) And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
(سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)

(1) And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
(سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)


(1) And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them [the resemblance of 'Îsa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)], and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) عليهما السلام]:
(سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)
^^
This is the Mohsin Khan translation, in his versions he writes his own interpretation [in brackets like this]. Notice how he is claiming the replacement theory?
This is actually a dangerous technique because this way he's influencing people's opinions using his own, ie 'adding' to the Quran. It may be in brackets but it is still sneaky.

Now the next one is even worse
(2) And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
(سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)


What i said before also applies here. When a person has no knowledge of previous scriptures/contexts..their interpretation/translation will reflect their own ignorance.


Here's my own OPINION/interpretation using this translation

(1) That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
(سورة النساء, An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)

firstly you have to think about how historically most muslims didnt even really think about this topic. It's only in the post-colonial english speaking context where these debates became commonplace. Then people like Ahmad Deedat came and others with other interpretations. These views were on film, audio and book format and shared all over the english speaking muslim world. After that youtube made it all 'blow up' so in alarge way even your assumptions about this verse are influenced by these modern contexts.

So here's how mine differs and i'll give obvious answers why

1) That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary

WHO are 'they'? the christians, romans, jews? that would be wrong. Yet most don't know.
in the truest context, the SADUCDEE sect.
What did the sadducees believe? they believe in the body. They disbelieved in the resurrection, the afterlife etc.

See the pharisees believed in spirituality and were hellenised, they even believed in reincarnation. The pharisees were money/power hungry but you can even see in the Gospel accounts, the pharisees did not have a theological disagreement with Jesus. They tried to challenge him but were shut down each time, they were silenced, knowing he is right. They didnt follow him because he exposed the big pharisee rabbis.

However the sadducees, whole diff game. They wanted him DEAD. They threw stones at him and were certainly the ones who caused the crucifixion.
so in the context the 'THEY' part of the verse is very important and an area EVERY other interpretation ive ever read has missed out on.


Does this additional knowledge change anything?
it changes a lot..because now we're considering this in a context that applies to thier (the sadducees) mindset.

but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them,

So they didnt kill or crucify him........it only appeared that way.
What does that mean? if it appeared to them....how so?
You know where the muslim replacement theory comes from? it is a very bad interpretation of the gnostic text, the 'gnostic apocalypse of Peter'
http://gnosis.org/naghamm/apopet.html
read it..
(im not claiming to believe in this text per se, but i am sharing it for yoyu to grasp what other muslims have been misinterpreting in the first place)

When he had said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said "What do I see, O Lord? That it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughing on the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?"

The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me."

get it? muslims have been so damn stupid they've even misinterpreted this text and assumed some other dude took on the likeness of Jesus.

YET in the same text it later says
he whom they crucified is the first-born, and the home of demons, and the stony vessel in which they dwell, of Elohim, of the cross, which is under the Law. But he who stands near him is the living Savior, the first in him, whom they seized and released, who stands joyfully looking at those who did him violence, while they are divided among themselves. Therefore he laughs at their lack of perception, knowing that they are born blind

What this actually means is that the physical body is not the real self, it is made in the likeness of the spirit. That is all.


So going back to the verse in the Quran
but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them,
he certainly did, in the physical form, die, get crucified..
but the key point is, the sadducees believed this meant he was DEAD, never to return again, no resurrection, no afterlife, just death..an athiestic death.
get it?

The Quran makes it clear that this is not the case in general eg
Pickthall: Think not of those, who are slain in the way of Allah, as dead. Nay, they are living. With their Lord they have provision.
in islam, if one puts the carnal self to death in the persuit of Allah...ie gives up all attachments to wordly things and then dies for the 'sake of Allah'..that person is a martyr and is 'not dead but alive'.
get it?
even if they die a physical death, this is merely the illusion/appearance of death.

Actually to go deeper, in islam...when we die in the physical, our soul is imprisoned in the grave ie hades/sheol. There, the soul remains attached to this world and suffers according to the depth of it's attachments until it is finally rid of sin, or it remains there until the day of judgement.
THIS IS DEATH!!..the imprisonment in barzakh, is death. We are told a 99 headed serpent bites us according to our 'sins'.
the serpent is our carnal soul...the 'biting' represents the extent we suffer when we cannot fulfill our earthly desires.

So to be free from the carnal/serpent imprisonment in the grave, means to be alive. It i said the martyrs are like birds in paradise, free...to roam where they want, totally alive.

To anyone out there christian or muslim who attacks my views above and says 'your views are different' 'no one agrees'
it is just ignorance of the collective truth we share because i know christianity cant disagree
ie Acts 2 Peter even said 'for death had no hold on him'
ie the grave rejected him...
furthermore...there are muslims who will say
"in the hadith it says Jesus is going to die and be buried, that means he hasnt died already because you only die once"
yet...Lazarus died twice!!..


And if all of this is not enough, then i urge you to read the book of Wisdom chapter 2 & 3 because everything ive said, is also said there (in prophecy).


As for the resurrection..
there is nothing writen about it whatsoever.
You have to appreciate that Allah revealed the Quran with the wisdom of considering it's target audience
do you think new arab muslims were capable of understanding matters that even the jews with all their knowledge and philosophy couldnt grasp?

I cant see your sig I’m on mobile. I use to believe the flesh was just a shell for our real selves, our spiritual selves, but I don’t really believe that anymore. God created us in unison with flesh and spirit I don’t think we were created that way exclusively for the material world. There’s believers wearing clothes in revelations and Jesus returned in the flesh so I’d assume we’ll follow suit? Idk. I appreciate the in depth explaination but it’s almost 4 am and I just finished studying so I don’t have the motivation to read long posts but I did read most of it. You seem to be in a minority as far your beliefs go. You’re saying that quran says Jesus did die physically but he lived on spiritually through martyrdom? My original point is that the majority of Muslims don’t believe in Jesus’ death or resurrection at all due to what the Quran claims. That may just be due to poor interpretation which seems to be what you’re suggesting but it’s a widely held belief nonetheless. We can debate the resurrection for sure but the crucifixion was a real event, for the Quran to say ‘they crucified him not’ is simply false. And if that isn’t what that verse is suggesting then why would Allah allow so many of his followers to interpret scripture incorrectly? When it comes to Christ I’m definitely more persuaded to believe the gospels, early church testimonies, and the evident growth of Christianity after the alleged resurrection over a claim from a religion created 600 years after Jesus’ earthly ministry. No shade meant, that’s just how I feel. Also I don’t interpret that verse from Acts as the grave rejecting him, he conquered death...the grave never had hold on him to reject him.
even if they die a physical death, this is merely the illusion/appearance of death.
You lost me here... when is it actually death and not just the illusion? When unbelievers die? Anyone who believes in life after death already loosely believes what you’re saying... that there’s life after death, youre just diminishing the significance of physical death for some reason.
There’s nothing written about the resurrection whatsoever? I know you’ve read the Bible...it’s fine if you don’t agree believe it happened but this is why I’m confused by you saying the Quran commemorates that Bible when they contradict each other. Why disregard the book that’s centered around Jesus on a topic about him? The resurrection is written in th NT and prophesied in the OT. Outside the Bible? Yes there are writings from early Christians that mention the resurrection. A non Christian source? I doubt it but that doesn’t disprove anything. If someone witnessed the resurrection they probably would become a Christian . The historical evidence and context for the resurrection is pretty impressive and cohesive to just be a lie. There were multiple eye witness who had nothing to gain from lying, early testimony, all very familiar with Jesus so they wouldn’t confuse him with someone else and James didn’t even follow Jesus until he saw him after the resurrection. I also have to wonder why someone would make the story up but use a group women as witnesses to the empty tomb when their testimony would’ve been seen as worthless in that time? Wouldn’t they just say it was men to make their story more believable? The emergence of the Christian church is ofter overlooked but it supports the events and aftermath of the Gospel logically IMO. So many believers were willing to suffer and die horrible deaths for the sake of the Gospel. If the resurrection didn’t happen I’m supposed to believe the disciples didn’t see Jesus get crucified or resurrected then proceeded to go and lie about it only to be martyred for it?¿? People do not die for things they know to be false. Christianity wouldn’t exist without the resurrection.

I’ll read the wisdom chapters when I have free time later.

 

[AspiringSoul]

@Violette Thank you for replying thoughtfully. i'm going to actually read what you wrote later but i just noticed YET another blatant lie in the translation/interpretation by muslims and have to illustrate my point yet again with that.

See the verses from Surah 17 I had quoted

4. And We conveyed to the Children of Israel in the Scripture: You will commit evil on earth twice, and you will rise to a great height.
5. When the first of the two promises came true, We sent against you servants of Ours, possessing great might, and they ransacked your homes. It was a promise fulfilled.
6. Then We gave you back your turn against them, and supplied you with wealth and children, and made you more numerous.
7. If you work righteousness, you work righteousness for yourselves; and if you commit evil, you do so against yourselves. Then, when the second promise comes true, they will make your faces filled with sorrow, and enter the Temple as they entered it the first time, and utterly destroy all that falls into their power.
8. Perhaps your Lord will have mercy on you. But if you revert, We will revert. We have made Hell a prison for the disbelievers.

due to the severe number of outright lies and false assumptions by these muslim translators (they are old generation idiots most of them, seriously, i give no respect to such lies)
The 2 punishments in the context are the events leading to the destruction of the temples ie babylon and rome. Events foretold in Daniel's prophecies.

Notice verse 7 here is speaking in future context? that's because whoever wrote this, was thinking of modern israel...future temple, antichrist contexts...he wasnt thinking of the past context because he had no knowledge of the actual details, probably never ever studied the bible.

Then, when the second promise comes true, they will make your faces filled with sorrow, and enter the Temple as they entered it the first time, and utterly destroy all that falls into their power.

wow just wow, at the next one, i cant believe i overlooked it
8. Perhaps your Lord will have mercy on you. But if you revert, We will revert. We have made Hell a prison for the disbelievers.

translator is saying 'revert to islam' in a modernised context
whereas in the other translations it reads like this...and i criticise other translations but at least they didnt get this bit so wrong.

[And said], "If you do good, you do good for yourselves; and if you do evil, [you do it] to yourselves." Then when the final promise came, [We sent your enemies] to sadden your faces and to enter the temple in Jerusalem, as they entered it the first time, and to destroy what they had taken over with [total] destruction.

[Then Allah said], "It is expected, [if you repent], that your Lord will have mercy upon you. But if you return [to sin], We will return [to punishment]. And We have made Hell, for the disbelievers, a prison-bed."


whatever people think of me, they often tell me 'you're not a real muslim' which pisses me off because how am i not? the only other guy ironically who is becoming famous these days for dissing muslim historical consensus on many issues of fiqh/religious rulings is Mufti Abu Layth (english speaking pakistani brit from birmingham...and he is hilarious at times). On here the likes of colgate have claimed he is a non-muslim.
In my view muslims are modern gentile jews..same shit exists in our religion as it did during the hellenistic era preceding Jesus Christ.

So here's another example of how muslim interpretors have told lies
remember how muslims often/usually say the bible is corrupt? how did that view originate?
it's in the interpretations/translations..
(1) So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
(سورة البقرة, Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #79)

YET if you study the Quran it clearly speaks of the torah and gospel in the 'present' tense (meaning when these verses were revealed in the 7th century) as 'the truth' 'a guidance and light' (not paste tense).
In the hadith there are examples like when prophet Mohammad SAW was asked to judge a case of adultery by the jews, ie maybe they were testing him? but they brought the mattr to him, he asked them to bring the torah..he placed it on a cushion and said "I believe in you" (speaking to the book), it was not writen in arabic so he asked the jewish rabbi to read the verses and asked a jewish-muslim convert to translate the meaning..the Stoning verses were read and that was his judgement, he told the jews to follow the torah. In the context if the torah was altered as muslims claim then this would contradict those claims by default. since we know lterations of the torah are usually attributed to 'ezra the scribe' by muslims themselves.

The verse ive quoted is of course reminiscent of what is in Jeremiah "the lying hand of the scribe" ie they write their own meanings in translations/interpretations and claim it is the Word of God..and the greatest irony here is muslims often read this and SAY "see the jews have corrupted their book, dont read it, it isnt trustworthy"
contradicting the Quran and attacking the Torah at the same time, that is major.

Furthermore, in hadiths it is also explained that the jews used to recite the torah in arabic and tell the muslims the 'meaning' and muslims were warned by the prophet 'neither reject nor accept what they say because something might be true or false, just say "we believe in what Allah has revealed"'

In our time, people are running rampant with all kinds of attacks/lies on every side, it's kind of making me sick tbh, that's why i have to expel it on this forum or elsewhere because it annoys me how people just cant see what is most obvious and easy to understand.

the verse in my sig, reads

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

 

[AspiringSoul]

that's why if any muslim studies the Quran or even non-muslim they NEED to have a certain level of overall knowledge.
the verses related to the jewish temple's destruction, can't even be understood without bible study.

another example is whenever muslims act arrogant and say "Quran and sunnah only"
the word Jahannum in the Quran is derived from aramaic Gehenna...derived from a context that has biblical/judaic and hellenised roots inc the 'valley of hinnom' so it relates to the symbolic imagery too.
a jew aware of the valley of hinnom through direct experience ie perhaps even seeing the place in person, would be more equipped to appreciate the idea of Gehenna...and hence Jahannum.
.
Same with the Quran's use of the word KALAM (Word) of Allah.
to understand this as a muslim, one would need to know about it's greek origin (the Logos) aswell as how Philo introduced it to judaism (the Image of God and Son of God terminology).

point is, it is not right for people to assume things about islam when they relate to the bible/christianity/judaism when they come from the ave muslim.
Furthermore when the prophet warned people, there was no google back then. So it's not like anyone could quickly verify what someone was translating/interpreting or do a comparison, learn the etymology etc.
since that time, there are all manner of tools available to understand the bible.


For example, Deuteronomy 18:18 is typically understood by muslim dawah/missionary men as 'a prophecy of prophet Mohammad'
they have said that 'one of your bretheren' means 'ishmael was isaac's brother and therefore the ismaelites are the 'brothers' of the israelites and therefore it refers to prophet Mohammad SAW.
Yet, in my limited capacity, i first read this verse, looked up the hebrew/jewish context and listened to the recitation in hebrew
the word BRETHREN, is recited as 'ummati'
ummati means 'from the nation' ie for example i am a muslim ummati. So it means this prophet spoken of in Deuteronmy 18:18 would have to be an ummati ie an israelite/jew. Then i found that this was confirmed as Jesus!!

majority/minority, makes no diff, Jesus was the messiah and the minority. The rabbis all around him, called him a blasphemer and disbeliever and a magician and all sorts more.

 

[bible_student]

@bible_student I appreciate your approach, but the Quran is not a gospel. It commemorates the gospel given to christians.
The injeel, in my understanding is summed up in the Beatitudes ie the 'good news of the kingdom of heaven'

@AspiringSoul Thank you. Perhaps, this just depends on how one personally chooses to define the word "gospel". I see it as being a gospel (and know of others who also see it like this). Since "gospel" can simply mean "good news" and since one of the main themes (if it's not the main theme running throughout the Quran) is that of unity, between all those who believe:

Say: "O People of the Book (Bible)! come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, lords and patrons other than God." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are "True in Faith" (bowing to God's Will). - 3:64

Peace be upon you, bible_student

 

[bible_student]

No offense but the quran is not part of the Bible.

Spoiler

That (shown in the spoiler) is actually Hadithism, which happens to be against the Quran (7:55). If you meant that, then yes you are correct, it is not part of the bible (neither is it part of the quran). But sadly, most people will just argue, without actually thinking about it and what the scripture teaches, and carry on blindly defending their man-made religious traditions.

Just like Catholicism, or Christian Denomination-alism (ALL of them) is not part of the Bible either, but just made up, man made "religious" conventions and traditions (division), that was not taught by Christ or any of the prophets.

 

[elsbet]

Agreed. May God guides us and keep us on His straight path. Ameen

https://quran.com/?local=en

caption under the video:
This is a short interview with a renowned Bible scholar who talks about why he left Christianity. Remember to never give up on God Almighty if you want to be guided call on the Creator alone and He will guide you...

I'm surprised you look to an Agnostic, who claims he essentially outgrew his belief in God, for support, here.

Interesting.


"... the more sophisticated I became in my theological views and in my understanding of the world and our place in it....

"Suffering increasingly became a problem for me and my faith. How can one explain all the pain and misery in the world if God—the creator and redeemer of all—is sovereign over it, exercising his will both on the grand scheme and in the daily workings of our lives? Why, I asked... "

Link