Infinityloop
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Likewise, @Red Sky at Morning if Christianity was true, how you you know?
If Christianity was false, how would you know?
- Thread starter Infinityloop
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Red Sky at Morning
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As a metaphor, I think this might be a good one. The new £20 note has certain features built in to it which are used to identify it as genuine.
In the same way, there are certain things built into the Bible that give many thinking Christians confidence in the veracity of its message. These are verifiable from the outside and make a good place to start as a non-Christian.
In addition, Christian experience itself is a great evidence of the reliability of Christianity. This is an internal evidence and is not one that would provide the objectivity that you might be interested in right now.
For the contrast, see C.S. Lewis’s “Meditation in a Toolshed” which @elsbet kindly reminded me of earlier.
I was standing today in the dark toolshed. The sun was shining outside and through the crack at the top of the door there came a sunbeam. From where I stood that beam of light, with the specks of dust floating in it, was the most striking thing in the place. Everything else was almost pitch-black. … Then I moved, so that the beam fell on my eyes. Instantly the whole previous picture vanished. I saw no toolshed, and (above all) no beam. Instead I saw, framed in the irregular cranny at the top of the door, green leaves moving on the branches of a tree outside and beyond that, 90 odd million miles away, the sun. Looking along the beam, and looking at the beam are very different experiences.
...you get one experience of a thing when you look along it and another when you look at it,” he wondered, “Which is the ‘true’ or ‘valid’ experience?” He lamented that “for the last fifty years or so… the people who look at things have had it all their own way; the people who look along things have simply been brow-beaten.”
It has even come to be taken for granted that the external account of a thing somehow refutes or “debunks” the account given from inside. “All these moral ideals which look so transcendental and beautiful from inside”, says the wiseacre, “are really only a mass of biological instincts and inherited taboos.” And no one plays the game the other way round by replying, “If you will only step inside, the things that look to you like instincts and taboos will suddenly reveal their real and transcendental nature.”
...you get one experience of a thing when you look along it and another when you look at it,” he wondered, “Which is the ‘true’ or ‘valid’ experience?” He lamented that “for the last fifty years or so… the people who look at things have had it all their own way; the people who look along things have simply been brow-beaten.”
It has even come to be taken for granted that the external account of a thing somehow refutes or “debunks” the account given from inside. “All these moral ideals which look so transcendental and beautiful from inside”, says the wiseacre, “are really only a mass of biological instincts and inherited taboos.” And no one plays the game the other way round by replying, “If you will only step inside, the things that look to you like instincts and taboos will suddenly reveal their real and transcendental nature.”
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Red Sky at Morning
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Further to the previous post, considering the “external” evidences for Christianity, good places to start might be “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel,
I would also strongly suggest a study into fulfilled (and unfulfilled prophecy in the Bible). One of my favourite introductions to this is looking at the macro level prophetic overview set out in the first 11 books of the Bible. Here each book is a piece of a greater whole!
I can also recommend digging into some of the hidden numeric layers (e.g. the heptadic structure of the Torah etc) that powerfully hint at a guiding hand beyond any mere human in the authorship and inspiration behind scripture.
I would also strongly suggest a study into fulfilled (and unfulfilled prophecy in the Bible). One of my favourite introductions to this is looking at the macro level prophetic overview set out in the first 11 books of the Bible. Here each book is a piece of a greater whole!
I can also recommend digging into some of the hidden numeric layers (e.g. the heptadic structure of the Torah etc) that powerfully hint at a guiding hand beyond any mere human in the authorship and inspiration behind scripture.
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Christianity is false.
Christianity is a collection of man made opinions based on the Bible.
Jesus Christ is true and so is the Bible but Christianity is false.
If you don't get out of religion and into a relationship with Jesus Christ... you are truly living on the edge.
Christianity is a collection of man made opinions based on the Bible.
Jesus Christ is true and so is the Bible but Christianity is false.
If you don't get out of religion and into a relationship with Jesus Christ... you are truly living on the edge.
Red Sky at Morning
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It might be worth saying that not everything that claims to be Christianity is Christianity.
Colossians 1
Paul's Suffering for the Chruch
(2 Corinthians 11:16-33)
24Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: 25Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 29Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
Either we have Christ within us... or we don't.
Lisa
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How is that?
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Christianity is a collection of religions based on the Bible... but what's important is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
Most christians today are not in such a relationship but just part of one of the many christian religions.
Christianity is false but Jesus Christ is true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
Non-Christian sources used to study and establish the historicity of Jesus include the c. first century Jewish historian Josephus and Roman historian Tacitus. These sources are compared to Christian sources, such as the Pauline letters and synoptic gospels, and are usually independent of each other; that is, the Jewish sources do not draw upon the Roman sources. Similarities and differences between these sources are used in the authentication process.[37][38][39][39][40]
In Books 18 and 20 of Antiquities of the Jews, written around AD 93 to 94, Josephus twice refers to the biblical Jesus. The general scholarly view holds that the longer passage, known as the Testimonium Flavianum, most likely consists of an authentic nucleus that was subjected to later Christian interpolation or forgery.[41][42] On the other hand, Josephus scholar Louis H. Feldman states that "few have doubted the genuineness" of the reference found in Antiquities 20, 9, 1 to "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James".[43][44][45][46]
Tacitus, in his Annals (written c. AD 115), book 15, chapter 44,[47] describes Nero's scapegoating of the Christians following the Fire of Rome. He writes that founder of the sect was named Christus (the Christian title for Jesus); that he was executed under Pontius Pilate; and that the movement, initially checked, broke out again in Judea and even in Rome itself.[48] Some scholars question the historical value of the passage on various grounds.[49]
Lisa
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To Christians He is a loving God who saves us...
What religions are you thinking Christianity is a collection of? And are you lumping catholicism in with it?
I agree that there is deceptive theology and practices in the church today, but there can be true Christians who worship God and follow Him through His word, the Bible.
There are true Christians... but many are not.
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I do not think there are any true Christians except for Gnostic Christians, and we are not really Christians in the sense you mean.
If we go by the standard Jesus set in scriptures, that being that any who had faith or belief in him could do all he did and more, then there are no real Christians.
Regards
DL
Right very few true Christians.
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Sure there are but they tend to end up persecuted and martyred.
We know false Christianity because their doctrine isn't based on the Bible entirely.
How do we know the Bible is true?
1- Prophecy.
The Bible says, “I am the Lord. … New things I declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them” (Isaiah 42:8, 9).
“I am God … declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done” (Isaiah 46:9, 10).
Bible predictions of future events that have come to pass dramatically confirm the divine inspiration of Scripture. These are just a few examples of fulfilled Bible prophecies:
1. Four world empires would arise: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome
(Daniel chapters 2, 7, 8).
2. Cyrus to be the warrior to capture Babylon (Isaiah 45:1-3).
3. Egypt would never again have a commanding position among the nations (Ezekiel 29:14, 15 30:12, 13).
4. Earth-shaking calamities and fear toward the end of time (Luke 21:25, 26).
5. Moral degeneracy and decline of spirituality in the last days (2 Timothy 3:1-5).
2- Statements about the natural world in the Bible confirmed by science.
The Bible says, “The entirety of Your word is truth” (Psalm 119:160).
The Holy Spirit, who guided each Bible writer, always speaks the truth. Here are just a few Bible statements confirmed by science:
1. “He hangs the earth on nothing” (Job 26:7). This scientific fact is mentioned in Job, the Bible’s oldest book.
2. “He … sits above the circle of the earth” (Isaiah 40:22). The Bible said the earth is round centuries before it was confirmed by scientists.
3. “To establish a weight for the wind” (Job 28:25). Long before science verified it, the Bible reported that air has weight.
3- Bible’s historical statements are accurate.
The Bible says, “I, the Lord, speak righteousness, I declare things that are right” (Isaiah 45:19).
Sometimes evidence might not yet be available to prove certain historical claims found in Scripture, but evidence has repeatedly surfaced proving the validity of the Bible. Note the following:
1. For years sceptics said the Bible was unreliable because it mentions the Hittite nation (Deuteronomy 7:1) and cities like Nineveh (Jonah 1:1, 2) and Sodom (Genesis 19:1), all of which they denied ever existed. But now modern archaeology has confirmed that all three did exist.
2. Critics also said that the kings Belshazzar (Daniel 5:1) and Sargon (Isaiah 20:1) never existed. Again, their existence has since been confirmed.
3. Sceptics said the Bible record of Moses was not reliable because it mentions writing (Exodus 24:4) and wheeled vehicles (Exodus 14:25), which they said didn’t exist in his time. Today we know they did.
4. At one time, the 39 kings of ancient Israel and Judah were known only from the Bible record; thus, critics doubted their existence. But when archaeologists found independent ancient records that mention many of these kings, the Bible record was proved accurate once again.
Critics of the Bible have been proven wrong repeatedly as new discoveries have confirmed biblical people, places, and events.
4- The Bible’s statements about health are still relevant in today’s world.
The Bible says, “Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers” (3 John 1:2).
God wants His creation to be happy and healthy. Following are just a few examples of Bible health principles that confirm its divine inspiration:
1. Cover body waste with dirt (Deuteronomy 23:12, 13).
Moses’ command that body waste should be buried outside Israel’s encampment was thousands of years ahead of its time. When human waste is not properly disposed of, disease can quickly spread via the water supply. This Bible counsel has saved millions of lives throughout history.
2. Leave alcoholic beverages alone (Proverbs 23:29–32).
If everyone followed this Bible advice, millions of alcoholics would become sober, helpful citizens; millions of broken families would be reunited; thousands of lives would be saved from drunk driving; and government and business leaders would make clear-minded decisions.
3. Don’t overeat. “Put a knife to your throat if you are a man given to appetite” (Proverbs 23:2). In Luke 21:34, Christ specifically warned against “carousing” (intemperance) in the last days. Overeating, a form of intemperance, is responsible for many degenerative diseases.
4. Keep your body clean. “Be clean” (Isaiah 52:11).
5. Put full trust in the Lord. “The fear of the Lord leads to life, and he who has it will abide in satisfaction” (Proverbs 19:23). Trust in the Lord strengthens health and life. “My son, give attention to my words … for they are life to those who find them, and health to all their flesh” (Proverbs 4:20, 22). Health comes from obedience to God’s commands and from putting full trust in Him.
5- The Bible proves its divine inspiration.
The Bible says, “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God” (2 Timothy 3:16).
One of the greatest miracles of the Bible is its unity. Just ponder these amazing facts:
The 66 books of the Bible were written:
1. On three continents.
2. In three languages.
3. By about 40 different people (such as kings, shepherds, scientists, attorneys, an army general, fishermen, priests, and a physician)
4. Over a period of about 1,500 years
5. On the most controversial subjects
6. By people who, in most cases, had never met
7. By authors whose education and background varied greatly
Yet, though it seems totally inconceivable, the 66 books maintain harmony with one another. And even when new concepts on a certain subject are expressed, they do not undermine what other Bible writers say on the same subject.
This is almost too amazing to believe! Ask people who have viewed the same event to give a report of what happened and you’ll discover that their stories will often differ widely and will contradict each other in some way. Yet the Bible, penned by 40 writers over a 1,500-year period, reads as if it was written by one mind. And indeed it was: “Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:21). The Holy Spirit “moved” them all; He is the real Bible author.
6- More evidence of Bible inspiration is found in the lives of people.
The Bible says, “If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new” (2 Corinthians 5:17).
The changed lives of those who follow Jesus and obey Scripture provide some of the most convincing proofs of the Bible’s divine inspiration. The drunk becomes sober; the immoral person becomes pure; the addicted becomes free; the profane person becomes reverent; the fearful person becomes courageous; and the cruel person becomes kind.
7- Jesus demonstrated His confidence and belief in Scripture.
Jesus said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone’ … It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’ … For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve’ ” (Matthew 4:4, 7, 10).
“Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth” (John 17:17).
Jesus quoted from Scripture when He was tempted by Satan. He also said the Bible is truth (John 17:17). Jesus quoted Scripture as the authority for everything He was teaching.
amazingfacts.org
No other holy book can make all these claims and more all at once. Only the Bible fulfils all these criteria and more.
How do we know the Bible is true?
1- Prophecy.
The Bible says, “I am the Lord. … New things I declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them” (Isaiah 42:8, 9).
“I am God … declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done” (Isaiah 46:9, 10).
Bible predictions of future events that have come to pass dramatically confirm the divine inspiration of Scripture. These are just a few examples of fulfilled Bible prophecies:
1. Four world empires would arise: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome
(Daniel chapters 2, 7, 8).
2. Cyrus to be the warrior to capture Babylon (Isaiah 45:1-3).
3. Egypt would never again have a commanding position among the nations (Ezekiel 29:14, 15 30:12, 13).
4. Earth-shaking calamities and fear toward the end of time (Luke 21:25, 26).
5. Moral degeneracy and decline of spirituality in the last days (2 Timothy 3:1-5).
2- Statements about the natural world in the Bible confirmed by science.
The Bible says, “The entirety of Your word is truth” (Psalm 119:160).
The Holy Spirit, who guided each Bible writer, always speaks the truth. Here are just a few Bible statements confirmed by science:
1. “He hangs the earth on nothing” (Job 26:7). This scientific fact is mentioned in Job, the Bible’s oldest book.
2. “He … sits above the circle of the earth” (Isaiah 40:22). The Bible said the earth is round centuries before it was confirmed by scientists.
3. “To establish a weight for the wind” (Job 28:25). Long before science verified it, the Bible reported that air has weight.
3- Bible’s historical statements are accurate.
The Bible says, “I, the Lord, speak righteousness, I declare things that are right” (Isaiah 45:19).
Sometimes evidence might not yet be available to prove certain historical claims found in Scripture, but evidence has repeatedly surfaced proving the validity of the Bible. Note the following:
1. For years sceptics said the Bible was unreliable because it mentions the Hittite nation (Deuteronomy 7:1) and cities like Nineveh (Jonah 1:1, 2) and Sodom (Genesis 19:1), all of which they denied ever existed. But now modern archaeology has confirmed that all three did exist.
2. Critics also said that the kings Belshazzar (Daniel 5:1) and Sargon (Isaiah 20:1) never existed. Again, their existence has since been confirmed.
3. Sceptics said the Bible record of Moses was not reliable because it mentions writing (Exodus 24:4) and wheeled vehicles (Exodus 14:25), which they said didn’t exist in his time. Today we know they did.
4. At one time, the 39 kings of ancient Israel and Judah were known only from the Bible record; thus, critics doubted their existence. But when archaeologists found independent ancient records that mention many of these kings, the Bible record was proved accurate once again.
Critics of the Bible have been proven wrong repeatedly as new discoveries have confirmed biblical people, places, and events.
4- The Bible’s statements about health are still relevant in today’s world.
The Bible says, “Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers” (3 John 1:2).
God wants His creation to be happy and healthy. Following are just a few examples of Bible health principles that confirm its divine inspiration:
1. Cover body waste with dirt (Deuteronomy 23:12, 13).
Moses’ command that body waste should be buried outside Israel’s encampment was thousands of years ahead of its time. When human waste is not properly disposed of, disease can quickly spread via the water supply. This Bible counsel has saved millions of lives throughout history.
2. Leave alcoholic beverages alone (Proverbs 23:29–32).
If everyone followed this Bible advice, millions of alcoholics would become sober, helpful citizens; millions of broken families would be reunited; thousands of lives would be saved from drunk driving; and government and business leaders would make clear-minded decisions.
3. Don’t overeat. “Put a knife to your throat if you are a man given to appetite” (Proverbs 23:2). In Luke 21:34, Christ specifically warned against “carousing” (intemperance) in the last days. Overeating, a form of intemperance, is responsible for many degenerative diseases.
4. Keep your body clean. “Be clean” (Isaiah 52:11).
5. Put full trust in the Lord. “The fear of the Lord leads to life, and he who has it will abide in satisfaction” (Proverbs 19:23). Trust in the Lord strengthens health and life. “My son, give attention to my words … for they are life to those who find them, and health to all their flesh” (Proverbs 4:20, 22). Health comes from obedience to God’s commands and from putting full trust in Him.
5- The Bible proves its divine inspiration.
The Bible says, “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God” (2 Timothy 3:16).
One of the greatest miracles of the Bible is its unity. Just ponder these amazing facts:
The 66 books of the Bible were written:
1. On three continents.
2. In three languages.
3. By about 40 different people (such as kings, shepherds, scientists, attorneys, an army general, fishermen, priests, and a physician)
4. Over a period of about 1,500 years
5. On the most controversial subjects
6. By people who, in most cases, had never met
7. By authors whose education and background varied greatly
Yet, though it seems totally inconceivable, the 66 books maintain harmony with one another. And even when new concepts on a certain subject are expressed, they do not undermine what other Bible writers say on the same subject.
This is almost too amazing to believe! Ask people who have viewed the same event to give a report of what happened and you’ll discover that their stories will often differ widely and will contradict each other in some way. Yet the Bible, penned by 40 writers over a 1,500-year period, reads as if it was written by one mind. And indeed it was: “Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:21). The Holy Spirit “moved” them all; He is the real Bible author.
6- More evidence of Bible inspiration is found in the lives of people.
The Bible says, “If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new” (2 Corinthians 5:17).
The changed lives of those who follow Jesus and obey Scripture provide some of the most convincing proofs of the Bible’s divine inspiration. The drunk becomes sober; the immoral person becomes pure; the addicted becomes free; the profane person becomes reverent; the fearful person becomes courageous; and the cruel person becomes kind.
7- Jesus demonstrated His confidence and belief in Scripture.
Jesus said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone’ … It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’ … For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve’ ” (Matthew 4:4, 7, 10).
“Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth” (John 17:17).
Jesus quoted from Scripture when He was tempted by Satan. He also said the Bible is truth (John 17:17). Jesus quoted Scripture as the authority for everything He was teaching.
amazingfacts.org
No other holy book can make all these claims and more all at once. Only the Bible fulfils all these criteria and more.