Idolatry in Christianity Cross-Examined......

TempestOfTempo

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Lets see if the "Christians" who are so keen to stir up drama in the IC/E thread will be just as quick to answer some questions here......
- When and where was Jesus actually born?
- Why do you continue to accept and peddle a totally false and historically inaccurate narrative and timeline regarding Jesus?
- Is the convenience of having modern, secular holidays based on pagan rituals, rites and dates more important to you than celebrating the actual foundations of your faith?
- Why do you eat pork? Jesus was a Jewish rabbi. Did he consume pork? Was it lawful for him or his followers at the time?
- Why is a graven, false image of Jesus promoted worldwide? He didnt look like a Caucasian man. Jesus was a Palestinian, Jewish man and would have looked so.... as is confirmed by his Biblical descriptions eh?
1538173387112.png
1538173482628.png
 
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dandelion25

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- When and where was Jesus actually born?
Jesus was born in Bethlehem, in December just a bit over 2000 years ago.

- Why do you continue to accept and peddle a totally false and historically inaccurate narrative and timeline regarding Jesus?
Do we do that? What exactly is the totally true and historically accurate narrative and timeline regarding Jesus?

- Is the convenience of having modern, secular holidays based on pagan rituals, rites and dates more important to you than celebrating the actual foundations of your faith?
We actually do celebrate the actual foundations of our faith. Christmas (Christ mass) is all about God incarnating as a human and Easter (Pascha) is about the same God-Man's defeat of death through resurrection. What's "secular" or "pagan" about that?

- Why do you eat pork? Jesus was a Jewish rabbi. Did he consume pork? Was it lawful for him or his followers at the time?
Jesus has fulfilled the Law and as such the ceremonial laws of the OT, like not eating pork or other non-kosher animals, does not apply anymore.
Matt 15:11 "A man is not defiled by what enters his mouth, but by what comes out of it."
Acts 10:9-16 "
9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds.13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”

14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven."

- Why is a graven, false image of Jesus promoted worldwide? He didnt look like a Caucasian man. Jesus was a Palestinian, Jewish man and would have looked so.... as is confirmed by his Biblical descriptions eh?
For traditional, historic depictions of Jesus go for the Byzantine icons such as the one below.
1538193451445.png
The western paintings styles have changed numerous times according to change in their art techniques. Tbh I really don't see that much difference between the traditional icons and most of the later western depictions, but I guess some people are overly obsessed about it.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Idolatry in the Church Prophecied in Revelation

Revelation 2 - Thyatira (literally "continuing sacrifice")

18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28 And I will give him the morning star.

29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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81k3DW1pt8L._SL1500_.jpg

Hislop delves into the idolatrous roots of the Roman Catholic Church and makes the connections between its icons and traditions right back to Nimrod, Semeramis and Tammuz. It really is worth reading, being one of the classic works on the questions you bring up.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Two-Babylons-Only-Fully-Complete-ebook/dp/B01BT52N04/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1538197295&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=the+two+babylons,+alexander+hislop

From the Intro

"In his work on “The Two Babylons” Dr. Hislop has proven conclusively that all the idolatrous systems of the nations had their origin in what was founded by that mighty Rebel, the beginning of whose kingdom was Babel (Gen. 10:10)."--A. W. Pink, The Antichrist (1923)

There is this great difference between the works of men and the works of God, that the same minute and searching investigation, which displays the defects and imperfections of the one, brings out also the beauties of the other. If the most finely polished needle on which the art of man has been expended be subjected to a microscope, many inequalities, much roughness and clumsiness, will be seen. But if the microscope be brought to bear on the flowers of the field, no such result appears. Instead of their beauty diminishing, new beauties and still more delicate, that have escaped the naked eye, are forthwith discovered; beauties that make us appreciate, in a way which otherwise we could have had little conception of, the full force of the Lord's saying, "Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: and yet I say unto you, That even Solomon, in all his glory, was not arrayed like one of these." The same law appears also in comparing the Word of God and the most finished productions of men. There are spots and blemishes in the most admired productions of human genius. But the more the Scriptures are searched, the more minutely they are studied, the more their perfection appears; new beauties are brought into light every day; and the discoveries of science, the researches of the learned, and the labours of infidels, all alike conspire to illustrate the wonderful harmony of all the parts, and the Divine beauty that clothes the whole.

If this be the case with Scripture in general, it is especially the case with prophetic Scripture. As every spoke in the wheel of Providence revolves, the prophetic symbols start into still more bold and beautiful relief. This is very strikingly the case with the prophetic language that forms the groundwork and corner-stone of the present work. There never has been any difficulty in the mind of any enlightened Protestant in identifying the woman "sitting on seven mountains," and having on her forehead the name written, "Mystery, Babylon the Great," with the Roman apostacy."
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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@TempestOfTempo

To the first questions of the OP...

"- When and where was Jesus actually born?"
"- Why do you continue to accept and peddle a totally false and historically inaccurate narrative and timeline regarding Jesus?"

With questions like these it is easy to quote "internal evidence" i.e. the Bible or those sympathetic to its message, but for the purposes of objectivity, "hostile witnesses" are often a respected method that historians use to check claims. Questions like "who is writing this", "what do they gain by saying this" etc are questions we should be asking.

If @VigilantCitizen ever decided to delete my account and content from this forum, it would leave an imprint of interractions, even from those who disliked and disagreed with me. In the same way, real people and especially those who cause a stir will often leave external evidences of their lives behind.

Your question has prompted me to look at the issue of "hostile witnesses" deeper and cont me £2 to buy a book on Amazon. I will mirror the same question across to the Islamic thread....

I will read the book, report back on what I find and hopefully answer some of your questions in the process.

71B9QknXrML._SL1500_.jpg

"If you ask people about the existence of Christ, they usually fall into one of three camps: the faithful who sing his praises, the atheists who consider him a mythological creation, and the skeptics who fall somewhere in between.

But regardless of your personal feelings about Jesus of Nazareth, little doubt remains that he was a real person who once walked this earth. A wealth of historical accounts exist to assure us of this—with many of the most compelling coming from nonbelievers themselves.

Hostile Witnesses is an examination of the best historical evidence for Christ’s existence, particularly the evidence provided to us by the most unexpected of sources. From the pagans of ancient Rome, to Jewish and Muslim writings, these accounts create a solid fact-based history of Jesus’s life on earth…one that believers and nonbelievers will find equally compelling.

Whether you are established in your beliefs or just now embarking on a journey of faith, join author Curtis Grant Parker as he reveals the truth about the historical Jesus—and discover the opportunity to make your own decisions about his status as Lord God and Savior."
 

phipps

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Lets see if the "Christians" who are so keen to stir up drama in the IC/E thread will be just as quick to answer some questions here......
- When and where was Jesus actually born?
- Why do you continue to accept and peddle a totally false and historically inaccurate narrative and timeline regarding Jesus?
- Is the convenience of having modern, secular holidays based on pagan rituals, rites and dates more important to you than celebrating the actual foundations of your faith?
- Why do you eat pork? Jesus was a Jewish rabbi. Did he consume pork? Was it lawful for him or his followers at the time?
- Why is a graven, false image of Jesus promoted worldwide? He didnt look like a Caucasian man. Jesus was a Palestinian, Jewish man and would have looked so.... as is confirmed by his Biblical descriptions eh?
View attachment 15873
View attachment 15874
There has always been idolatry since the world fell to sin. We read about how the Israelites always fell in and out idolatry in The Bible. God always condemned and punished them for it. Idolatry is anything that replaces God in our lives. Whether its other gods, money, sport, entertainment etc. God tells He is a jealous God.

Exodus 20:4-6
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


There are many Christian religions and doctrines out there but Bible Christians should steer clear of idolatry. Many things within Christianity are not biblical. Sunday is not the Sabbath, Christmas ( was and still is the commemorative day of the birth of the sun god) and Easter (did not originate for the purpose of celebrating Christ, but rather for the purpose of worshipping the mother goddess Ishtar) are pagan celebration days that the Catholic church "turned" into Christian celebration days. Its no coincidence that many Christian and Catholic celebration days happen to be on pagan holy days.

Eating pork and other banned foods in the Bible including alcohol and drugs is wrong too and I started a forum about the original diet and the old testament dietary laws https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-original-diet-of-mankind-and-the-old-testament-dietary-laws-do-they-still-apply.4467/. Many Christians today think they were done away with and were only meant for Jews. But just as God wanted Jews to be healthy, so He wants us to be healthy physically, mentally and spiritually too. God is concerned about everything to do with us including what we eat and drink.

As Christians we should strive to do only what God asks and obey His word. In order to do that we need to read His word and ask for guidance and understanding of His word. We need to be strong enough to choose to obey God rather than men. Obedience to God's law demonstrates our love for Him. Very few Christians do this.
 
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Hubert

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Lets see if the "Christians" who are so keen to stir up drama in the IC/E thread will be just as quick to answer some questions here......
- When and where was Jesus actually born?
- Why do you continue to accept and peddle a totally false and historically inaccurate narrative and timeline regarding Jesus?
- Is the convenience of having modern, secular holidays based on pagan rituals, rites and dates more important to you than celebrating the actual foundations of your faith?
- Why do you eat pork? Jesus was a Jewish rabbi. Did he consume pork? Was it lawful for him or his followers at the time?
- Why is a graven, false image of Jesus promoted worldwide? He didnt look like a Caucasian man. Jesus was a Palestinian, Jewish man and would have looked so.... as is confirmed by his Biblical descriptions eh?
-Bethlehem, or the general area, a little over two thousand years ago, the exact date is unknown.
-What inaccuracies are you referring to, the date of his birth? If that is it, it's because the exact date isn't really important.
-These aren't mutually exclusive. The way Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus has changed over the years. There is nothing wrong with that.
-Because it is delicious.
-That was the Catholics. They were trying to spread Christianity throughout Europe, so they made Jesus look European.
 

Violette

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I agree with everything Hubert said. He was born in Bethlehem, the exact date isn’t known and doesn’t matter but I’d assume it was some time in the spring. Christians and most people understand that man made holidays don’t actually mean anything. It’s just a date everyone agreed to celebrate on. It’s called compromise. If you celebrate your anniversary on the same day as some important pagan holiday are you now pagan? Lol come on dude. If we did known exact dates and descriptions people would obsess over them, forgetting what really matters. I don’t eat pork or any meat really but Jesus and I both agree that what comes out of your heart is what matters, not what you place in your stomach. Clean and unclean foods have scientifically been proven to be just as “healthy” so when people say God declared some foods clean because they’re healthier then they’d be admitting science is more proven than God....Chicken is considered clean but more people get sick from it than pork, in fact peoplrget sick from chicken more than any other food. The food laws were made because geographically pigs and other unclean animals would not thrive there and they would be hard to preserve. Now we understand microbiology and sanitation. And no the passage about Jesus declaring all foods clean isn’t really about the Pharisees tradition when Mark is writing to gentiles who wouldn’t have even known what that was. Your insistence on people celebrating specific dates sounds like idolatry more than anything. Rites and rituals don’t matter, your relationship with God does.
 

TempestOfTempo

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So Im seeing various responses regarding the questions of idolatry from the posters here. That is really exciting because although I was baptized and raised as a Roman Catholic, I have been in the fold of Islam for about 15 years now. So I had some idea about the issue from my previous time spent inside the Catholic faith, but I felt is was important to ask people whom are still Christian themselves about these issues.

Im going to continue to read and reply to the comments here but it seems like we are actually staying on track regarding the topic so Id like to thank everyone for the non-confrontational stance and encourage us to continue to address these perceived inconsistencies with respect for both our community here and for the Christians who might read the thread.

As far as I believe, I have stated before and will state again here:
- Jesus was an actual man who walked the Earth. His existence has been verified. He was a real human being, a man and not a myth.
- Jesus preformed many miracles while on earth. Those loaves and fish didnt come from nowhere to feed the masses and they didnt come from magic. Those sick people didnt heal themselves, it was the Prince of Peace, on authority of God almighty.
- Jesus was for the downtrodden. His focus was the masses. The lost souls whom the Roman Empire and Jewish hierarchy had cast aside. Jesus was with the poor and needy, the orphans, terminally ill, the winos and addicts, the prostitutes, thieves and killers. From among those who the ruling elite had deemed disposable, Jesus didnt hesitate to claim them as his followers.
- Jesus was not afraid to speak truth to power. He defied Satan's direct temptation as well as the allure of worldly stature and material gains. He advocated for those abused by his own people and called out the Jewish religious and political power structure. He stood tall against their perversion of the Judaism, their oppression of fellow mankind and their hoarding/tainting of the monotheistic faith.
- Jesus was persecuted and ultimately taken to heaven, where he waits to return to Earth and lead the victorious charge against the anti-christ.

The main issue I see thus far in the discussion is the minimizing of the intentional "whitening" of Jesus. To me, its a very serious, and politically motivated form of blasphemous idolatry, and Id like to discuss it more. I also agree that most modern Christians hearts are sincere in their feelings towards holidays like Easter and Christmas. But that doesnt change the fact that there is a wealth of evidence suggesting that these are based on pagan/Egyptian/etc. holidays and rites which the Roman Empire and others co-opted into Christianity. They have since been co-opted here, in the US at least, to become vehicles for shameless, violent economic exploitation.
 
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Bacsi

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So Im seeing various responses regarding the questions of idolatry from the posters here. That is really exciting because although I was baptized and raised as a Roman Catholic, I have been in the fold of Islam for about 15 years now. So I had some idea about the issue from my previous time spent inside the Catholic faith, but I felt is was important to ask people whom are still Christian themselves about these issues.

Im going to continue to read and reply to the comments here but it seems like we are actually staying on track regarding the topic so Id like to thank everyone for the non-confrontational stance and encourage us to continue to address these perceived inconsistencies with respect for both our community here and for the Christians who might read the thread.

As far as I believe, I have stated before and will state again here:
- Jesus was an actual man who walked the Earth. His existence has been verified. He was a real human being, a man and not a myth.
- Jesus preformed many miracles while on earth. Those loaves and fish didnt come from nowhere to feed the masses and they didnt come from magic. Those sick people didnt heal themselves, it was the Prince of Peace, on authority of God almighty.
- Jesus was for the downtrodden. His focus was the masses. The lost souls whom the Roman Empire and Jewish hierarchy had cast aside. Jesus was with the poor and needy, the orphans, terminally ill, the winos and addicts, the prostitutes, thieves and killers. From among those who the ruling elite had deemed disposable, Jesus didnt hesitate to claim them as his followers.
- Jesus was not afraid to speak truth to power. He defied Satan's direct temptation as well as the allure of worldly stature and material gains. He advocated for those abused by his own people and called out the Jewish religious and political power structure. He stood tall against their perversion of the Judaism, their oppression of fellow mankind and their hoarding/tainting of the monotheistic faith.
- Jesus was persecuted and ultimately taken to heaven, where he waits to return to Earth and lead the victorious charge against the anti-christ.

The main issue I see thus far in the discussion is the minimizing of the intentional "whitening" of Jesus. To me, its a very serious, and politically motivated form of blasphemous idolatry, and Id like to discuss it more. I also agree that most modern Christians hearts are sincere in their feelings towards holidays like Easter and Christmas. But that doesnt change the fact that there is a wealth of evidence suggesting that these are based on pagan/Egyptian/etc. holidays and rites which the Roman Empire and others co-opted into Christianity. They have since been co-opted here, in the US at least, to become vehicles for shameless, violent economic exploitation.
Turning a human being into God is wrong and quite silly.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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...The main issue I see thus far in the discussion is the minimizing of the intentional "whitening" of Jesus. To me, its a very serious, and politically motivated form of blasphemous idolatry, and Id like to discuss it more. I also agree that most modern Christians hearts are sincere in their feelings towards holidays like Easter and Christmas. But that doesnt change the fact that there is a wealth of evidence suggesting that these are based on pagan/Egyptian/etc. holidays and rites which the Roman Empire and others co-opted into Christianity. They have since been co-opted here, in the US at least, to become vehicles for shameless, violent economic exploitation.
I think if I had grown up in Catholicism I would have many of these questions tbh. There are not really any of the points you make on the deviation from true Christianity that I disagree with in the points above ^.
 

dandelion25

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So Im seeing various responses regarding the questions of idolatry from the posters here. That is really exciting because although I was baptized and raised as a Roman Catholic, I have been in the fold of Islam for about 15 years now. So I had some idea about the issue from my previous time spent inside the Catholic faith, but I felt is was important to ask people whom are still Christian themselves about these issues.

Im going to continue to read and reply to the comments here but it seems like we are actually staying on track regarding the topic so Id like to thank everyone for the non-confrontational stance and encourage us to continue to address these perceived inconsistencies with respect for both our community here and for the Christians who might read the thread.

As far as I believe, I have stated before and will state again here:
- Jesus was an actual man who walked the Earth. His existence has been verified. He was a real human being, a man and not a myth.
- Jesus preformed many miracles while on earth. Those loaves and fish didnt come from nowhere to feed the masses and they didnt come from magic. Those sick people didnt heal themselves, it was the Prince of Peace, on authority of God almighty.
- Jesus was for the downtrodden. His focus was the masses. The lost souls whom the Roman Empire and Jewish hierarchy had cast aside. Jesus was with the poor and needy, the orphans, terminally ill, the winos and addicts, the prostitutes, thieves and killers. From among those who the ruling elite had deemed disposable, Jesus didnt hesitate to claim them as his followers.
- Jesus was not afraid to speak truth to power. He defied Satan's direct temptation as well as the allure of worldly stature and material gains. He advocated for those abused by his own people and called out the Jewish religious and political power structure. He stood tall against their perversion of the Judaism, their oppression of fellow mankind and their hoarding/tainting of the monotheistic faith.
- Jesus was persecuted and ultimately taken to heaven, where he waits to return to Earth and lead the victorious charge against the anti-christ.

The main issue I see thus far in the discussion is the minimizing of the intentional "whitening" of Jesus. To me, its a very serious, and politically motivated form of blasphemous idolatry, and Id like to discuss it more. I also agree that most modern Christians hearts are sincere in their feelings towards holidays like Easter and Christmas. But that doesnt change the fact that there is a wealth of evidence suggesting that these are based on pagan/Egyptian/etc. holidays and rites which the Roman Empire and others co-opted into Christianity. They have since been co-opted here, in the US at least, to become vehicles for shameless, violent economic exploitation.
I understand how some people really see the connection between Christmas and a pagan holiday, since Saturnalia were celebrated in Rome. However, Easter (which is called that only in English and maybe German, other languages refer to it as Pascha) is celebrated as the fulfilled, Christian version of the Jewish Pascha/Passover. The bases for it are clearly biblical, it's date is calculated according to the Jewish lunar calendar, so it corresponds with Passover and there is historical evidence suggesting early Christians celebrated is as early as in 165 AD.

As to the images, again it's a western thing, that happened way after their split from the east. The traditional depictions of biblical figures can be found in the Icons, which present them as relatively Levantine Greek/Middle Eastern/North African looking people that occupied those lands at the time. As for the different racial depictions (some African Christians have pictures of black Jesus, and some Chinese/Korean Christians create pictures of Chinese/Korean Jesus), I personally find them interesting aesthetically, but I don't think they should be widespread, since reinterpretation of the historical look of Jesus takes away from the key point of Christianity, that God the Word/Logos, incarnated as a fully human person and entered the history.
So please don't project your issues with the Catholics onto the whole of Christianity.
 

phipps

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I understand how some people really see the connection between Christmas and a pagan holiday, since Saturnalia were celebrated in Rome. However, Easter (which is called that only in English and maybe German, other languages refer to it as Pascha) is celebrated as the fulfilled, Christian version of the Jewish Pascha/Passover. The bases for it are clearly biblical, it's date is calculated according to the Jewish lunar calendar, so it corresponds with Passover and there is historical evidence suggesting early Christians celebrated is as early as in 165 AD.

As to the images, again it's a western thing, that happened way after their split from the east. The traditional depictions of biblical figures can be found in the Icons, which present them as relatively Levantine Greek/Middle Eastern/North African looking people that occupied those lands at the time. As for the different racial depictions (some African Christians have pictures of black Jesus, and some Chinese/Korean Christians create pictures of Chinese/Korean Jesus), I personally find them interesting aesthetically, but I don't think they should be widespread, since reinterpretation of the historical look of Jesus takes away from the key point of Christianity, that God the Word/Logos, incarnated as a fully human person and entered the history.
So please don't project your issues with the Catholics onto the whole of Christianity.

Early Christians did not celebrate passover because the lamb that was sacrificed during the feast represented the death of Jesus. The sacrifice of a lamb on passover would no longer be necessary. In fact the Lord would make sure that the sacrifice would not take place any longer. As Jesus breathed out His last breath outside the city, there was absolute chaos inside the temple. There was an earthquake and the curtain separating the Holy and the Most Holy rooms was torn in two from top to bottom. Mark 15:37-38 : “And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.”

Matthew 27:50-51 gives more detail: "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up his ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent."

Passover has nothing to do with Easter at all. The two were different celebrations by different groups of people. The Jews celebrated Passover and still do and Christians celebrate Easter which was instituted by the Catholic Church.

"The only time the word “Easter” is found in the Bible (Acts 12:4), it is there by mistranslation. The word in the original Greek is “Passover.” Jesus died at the time of the Passover feast, but the Passover is not Easter and Jesus did not die at Easter time. Easter is an ancient spring festival. Long before the time of Christ, the pagan goddess Ishtar, or sometimes known as Astarte or Ashtoreth, was worshipped in different countries. Our modern practice of sunrise worship originates from the pagan festival honoring Ishtar."

As Christians we should stick to doing what God asks us to do rather than celebrate man made traditions that are not based in the Bible but in paganism.
 
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free2018

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Sep 8, 2018
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So Im seeing various responses regarding the questions of idolatry from the posters here. That is really exciting because although I was baptized and raised as a Roman Catholic, I have been in the fold of Islam for about 15 years now. So I had some idea about the issue from my previous time spent inside the Catholic faith, but I felt is was important to ask people whom are still Christian themselves about these issues.

Im going to continue to read and reply to the comments here but it seems like we are actually staying on track regarding the topic so Id like to thank everyone for the non-confrontational stance and encourage us to continue to address these perceived inconsistencies with respect for both our community here and for the Christians who might read the thread.

As far as I believe, I have stated before and will state again here:
- Jesus was an actual man who walked the Earth. His existence has been verified. He was a real human being, a man and not a myth.
- Jesus preformed many miracles while on earth. Those loaves and fish didnt come from nowhere to feed the masses and they didnt come from magic. Those sick people didnt heal themselves, it was the Prince of Peace, on authority of God almighty.
- Jesus was for the downtrodden. His focus was the masses. The lost souls whom the Roman Empire and Jewish hierarchy had cast aside. Jesus was with the poor and needy, the orphans, terminally ill, the winos and addicts, the prostitutes, thieves and killers. From among those who the ruling elite had deemed disposable, Jesus didnt hesitate to claim them as his followers.
- Jesus was not afraid to speak truth to power. He defied Satan's direct temptation as well as the allure of worldly stature and material gains. He advocated for those abused by his own people and called out the Jewish religious and political power structure. He stood tall against their perversion of the Judaism, their oppression of fellow mankind and their hoarding/tainting of the monotheistic faith.
- Jesus was persecuted and ultimately taken to heaven, where he waits to return to Earth and lead the victorious charge against the anti-christ.

The main issue I see thus far in the discussion is the minimizing of the intentional "whitening" of Jesus. To me, its a very serious, and politically motivated form of blasphemous idolatry, and Id like to discuss it more. I also agree that most modern Christians hearts are sincere in their feelings towards holidays like Easter and Christmas. But that doesnt change the fact that there is a wealth of evidence suggesting that these are based on pagan/Egyptian/etc. holidays and rites which the Roman Empire and others co-opted into Christianity. They have since been co-opted here, in the US at least, to become vehicles for shameless, violent economic exploitation.
I grew up Catholic and to some extent am a nominal Catholic. I think my family has the book, the Two Babylons.
There was no white Christ. That's never been an issue for me. Cesar Borgia was not Christ.
Besides that, I do not worship Christ. I follow Christ.
 

dandelion25

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Early Christians did not celebrate passover because the lamb that was sacrificed during the feast represented the death of Jesus. The sacrifice of a lamb on passover would no longer be necessary. In fact the Lord would make sure that the sacrifice would not take place any longer. As Jesus breathed out His last breath outside the city, there was absolute chaos inside the temple. There was an earthquake and the curtain separating the Holy and the Most Holy rooms was torn in two from top to bottom. Mark 15:37-38 : “And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.”

Matthew 27:50-51 gives more detail: "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up his ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent."

Passover has nothing to do with Easter at all. The two were different celebrations by different groups of people. The Jews celebrated Passover and still do and Christians celebrate Easter which was instituted by the Catholic Church.

"The only time the word “Easter” is found in the Bible (Acts 12:4), it is there by mistranslation. The word in the original Greek is “Passover.” Jesus died at the time of the Passover feast, but the Passover is not Easter and Jesus did not die at Easter time. Easter is an ancient spring festival. Long before the time of Christ, the pagan goddess Ishtar, or sometimes known as Astarte or Ashtoreth, was worshipped in different countries. Our modern practice of sunrise worship originates from the pagan festival honoring Ishtar."

As Christians we should stick to doing what God asks us to do rather than celebrate man made traditions that are not based in the Bible but in paganism.
Yes, the Passover lamb represented Christ, so there is no more need to sacrifice it for Passover. But it was still celebrated, just without the lamb. However, keeping the Paschal feast is very much Biblical, and as such was practiced by early Christians.
1 Cor 5:7-8 "7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."
Pascha is celebrated and has been celebrated since the early days of Christianity as a remembrance of Christ's death and most importantly resurrection.
As I've mentioned before, Easter is an english word for the holiday and it is of Germanic origin. The whole Christian world calls it Pascha/Passover. The first Christians didn't speak English, they called it Pascha and celebrated it as the commemoration of Jesus' resurrection. The claim that Easter comes from Ishtar has been debunked by multiple scholars.
Also, Ishtar and Inanna were goddesses of war and sex, associated with planet Venus. Idk what practices of "sunrise worship" you're talking about but I'm sure as hell they don't come with this goddess. Never in any culture or form she was worshiped under had anything to do with the sun.
 

phipps

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Messages
4,236
Yes, the Passover lamb represented Christ, so there is no more need to sacrifice it for Passover. But it was still celebrated, just without the lamb. However, keeping the Paschal feast is very much Biblical, and as such was practiced by early Christians.
1 Cor 5:7-8 "7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."
Pascha is celebrated and has been celebrated since the early days of Christianity as a remembrance of Christ's death and most importantly resurrection.
As I've mentioned before, Easter is an english word for the holiday and it is of Germanic origin. The whole Christian world calls it Pascha/Passover. The first Christians didn't speak English, they called it Pascha and celebrated it as the commemoration of Jesus' resurrection. The claim that Easter comes from Ishtar has been debunked by multiple scholars.
Also, Ishtar and Inanna were goddesses of war and sex, associated with planet Venus. Idk what practices of "sunrise worship" you're talking about but I'm sure as hell they don't come with this goddess. Never in any culture or form she was worshiped under had anything to do with the sun.
Why would early Christians celebrate Passover without the most important aspect of the feast? The apostles in the New testament didn't celebrate Passover because they understood what it stood for. All the feasts pointed to Jesus and Paul especially taught that they were done away with. With Jesus’ death on the cross, the sacrificial system, with all its feasts and festivals came to an end. Paul explains it beautifully in Colossians 2:13-17. This passage explains that the ceremonial law was nailed to the cross. That is, with Jesus’ crucifixion, it was made null and void. For this reason, people can no longer judge God’s people if they do not keep the holy days and Sabbath days of the ceremonial law.

The early Christians would have understood that by keeping the feasts and festivals of the Old Testament, in part or in whole, they would be rejecting Jesus Christ as their Saviour. They would have rejected Him as “the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world” (John 1:29).

So was Paul contradicting himself in I Corinthians 5? No. The Bible does not contradict itself. Obviously the message was different in that chapter and had nothing to do with celebrating passover. If your read the whole chapter its talking about people in that Church who have fornicated. Paul is telling them not to keep company with them. He says, starting from verse 4 "In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." Unleavened bread was bread without yeast. Yeast is used in the Bible as a symbol for sin. Jesus says, “I am the bread of life” (John 6:35), so the unleavened bread symbolized Jesus Christ who was without sin. He explains himslf better in the next verses. "I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."

In fact Christ instituted the communion service in place of the services that had been a part of the sanctuary service including passover. Luke 22:19-20. "And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you." My point is we should only be obedient to God's word. No matter what the intentions were or why the man made traditions were created, they do not count. They are meaningless. When Jesus returns, He will judge us according to His word not human traditions. That is why some will be shocked not to make it to heaven. Matthew 7:21-23, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
 

dandelion25

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Sep 28, 2018
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Why would early Christians celebrate Passover without the most important aspect of the feast? The apostles in the New testament didn't celebrate Passover because they understood what it stood for. All the feasts pointed to Jesus and Paul especially taught that they were done away with. With Jesus’ death on the cross, the sacrificial system, with all its feasts and festivals came to an end. Paul explains it beautifully in Colossians 2:13-17. This passage explains that the ceremonial law was nailed to the cross. That is, with Jesus’ crucifixion, it was made null and void. For this reason, people can no longer judge God’s people if they do not keep the holy days and Sabbath days of the ceremonial law.

The early Christians would have understood that by keeping the feasts and festivals of the Old Testament, in part or in whole, they would be rejecting Jesus Christ as their Saviour. They would have rejected Him as “the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world” (John 1:29).

So was Paul contradicting himself in I Corinthians 5? No. The Bible does not contradict itself. Obviously the message was different in that chapter and had nothing to do with celebrating passover. If your read the whole chapter its talking about people in that Church who have fornicated. Paul is telling them not to keep company with them. He says, starting from verse 4 "In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." Unleavened bread was bread without yeast. Yeast is used in the Bible as a symbol for sin. Jesus says, “I am the bread of life” (John 6:35), so the unleavened bread symbolized Jesus Christ who was without sin. He explains himslf better in the next verses. "I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."

In fact Christ instituted the communion service in place of the services that had been a part of the sanctuary service including passover. Luke 22:19-20. "And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you." My point is we should only be obedient to God's word. No matter what the intentions were or why the man made traditions were created, they do not count. They are meaningless. When Jesus returns, He will judge us according to His word not human traditions. That is why some will be shocked not to make it to heaven. Matthew 7:21-23, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Again, we have sources saying Christians celebrated Easter/Passover as early as 165 AD. They didn't sacrifice the lamb, because they did not have to, but they did celebrate it as a remembrance of Jesus' death and resurrection. Even with the extended fragment of 1 Corinthians it still tells clearly to keep the feast.
As to the Eucharist I agree completely. It's why it is celebrated every every day in the Apostolic Churches. And why it is the key point of celebration of Holidays/Feast Days, such as Christmas and Easter/Pascha.
And yes, just going through the rituals and feasts without heart is worthless, but that's been said even in the OT. That doesn't mean that those feasts and holidays have no meaning. They should be celebrated properly.
 

TempestOfTempo

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I understand how some people really see the connection between Christmas and a pagan holiday, since Saturnalia were celebrated in Rome. However, Easter (which is called that only in English and maybe German, other languages refer to it as Pascha) is celebrated as the fulfilled, Christian version of the Jewish Pascha/Passover. The bases for it are clearly biblical, it's date is calculated according to the Jewish lunar calendar, so it corresponds with Passover and there is historical evidence suggesting early Christians celebrated is as early as in 165 AD.

As to the images, again it's a western thing, that happened way after their split from the east. The traditional depictions of biblical figures can be found in the Icons, which present them as relatively Levantine Greek/Middle Eastern/North African looking people that occupied those lands at the time. As for the different racial depictions (some African Christians have pictures of black Jesus, and some Chinese/Korean Christians create pictures of Chinese/Korean Jesus), I personally find them interesting aesthetically, but I don't think they should be widespread, since reinterpretation of the historical look of Jesus takes away from the key point of Christianity, that God the Word/Logos, incarnated as a fully human person and entered the history.
So please don't project your issues with the Catholics onto the whole of Christianity.
Thank you for your reply.
However the images in question, while of certain being from a "western thing" perspective and motivation..... are employed by most Christian individuals and groups. The blasphemous image of Jesus is most certainly not just a Catholic issue.
 

TempestOfTempo

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Joined
Jan 29, 2018
Messages
8,100
Early Christians did not celebrate passover because the lamb that was sacrificed during the feast represented the death of Jesus. The sacrifice of a lamb on passover would no longer be necessary. In fact the Lord would make sure that the sacrifice would not take place any longer. As Jesus breathed out His last breath outside the city, there was absolute chaos inside the temple. There was an earthquake and the curtain separating the Holy and the Most Holy rooms was torn in two from top to bottom. Mark 15:37-38 : “And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.”

Matthew 27:50-51 gives more detail: "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up his ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent."

Passover has nothing to do with Easter at all. The two were different celebrations by different groups of people. The Jews celebrated Passover and still do and Christians celebrate Easter which was instituted by the Catholic Church.

"The only time the word “Easter” is found in the Bible (Acts 12:4), it is there by mistranslation. The word in the original Greek is “Passover.” Jesus died at the time of the Passover feast, but the Passover is not Easter and Jesus did not die at Easter time. Easter is an ancient spring festival. Long before the time of Christ, the pagan goddess Ishtar, or sometimes known as Astarte or Ashtoreth, was worshipped in different countries. Our modern practice of sunrise worship originates from the pagan festival honoring Ishtar."

As Christians we should stick to doing what God asks us to do rather than celebrate man made traditions that are not based in the Bible but in paganism.
I am interested in what denomination you belong to. Your advise sounds correct.
 
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