I dont know what to believe anymore

[Alice]

I've been reading about Illuminati since 2011. But Just now I've realized that most of the philosophers and pretty much all the thinkers from the 18 and 19 century were freemasons. Or some of them were inside ocultism like Jung. Name any thinker from Europe, from Rousseau to Freud. What should I believe in? Can we trust those guys? Were they working with Illuminati project to destroy human civilization and makes all confused? Or am I Just Being nuts?

 

[Helioform]

Yes, freemasonry is a form of hidden knowledge so this is why a lot of scientists and philosophers are/were freemasons. The masonic square and compass represents knowledge of geometry. No wonder they call God "The Great Architect of the Universe."

So can we trust them? I would say NO, because those who are in the know use their knowledge for evil purposes. Their system of brotherhood is used extensively to cover up crimes and protect criminals so this is why they are easy to infiltrate also.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I think it is rather like trying to understand the profile of a super-villain! If you were to put a mafia Don, with a MENSA IQ on trial, you might find that he was well able to produce an appealing, compelling story that makes the simple presentation of guilt by the NYPD look pedestrian and clumsy!

If you imagine that these folk (and the things they are in touch with) are buried deep in untruth, the deception they construct will be superbly sophisticated. Because of this you might expect the most elaborate and compelling spiritual counter-narrative to exist.

 

[Aero]

Jung is like a treasure trove of knowledge, and Freud had some pretty good ideas too. What I'm really wondering is, what technical jargon confuses you? And that's an open question to anyone BTW. Idk if I can explain it better for you, but I can try.

I think that most of you just want speculation. And I'm not going to blame it on a conspiracy, but it does kind of fit. This thread is a perfect example. You're not going to trust actual experts because of a conspiracy theory? So what some of you seem to be hinting at is the Illuminati took over everything. But your Religions somehow got a pass. Uh huh. Suuuure

The churches were the first things to get infiltrated, but that's besides the point. Just because they got infiltrated, doesn't mean all of the religious scholars are instantly discredited. Who uses that type of logic? The nuts term might be accurate, but in a Jungian sense it's actually perfectly stated. This is the guy quoted as saying "Show me a sane man, and I will make him insane"

Because everyone is nuts. It's called having an Ego, and it's not that complicated. It's some weird thing we have to deal with as humans. Along with the subconscious. It's another super weird thing where our nightmares come from.

 

[Vytas]

Freud was a complete fraud and idiot.Unholy jew trinity Freud-Darwin-Einstein. And amount of damage they did to humanity smh. And surely they were working with the "illuminati". First tell for me personally is media and mainstream reaction. If they promoting person and his works hard, im already very suspicious. For example whose who opposed Darwin were ridiculed and kicked out of scientific community, no wonder soon none existed. We learn in school about Edison not about Tesla... Truth is hard to come by these days. Be picky about your sources, use critical thinking, (learn how to do it).

Or am I Just Being nuts?

welcome to the family lol

 

[Illuminized]

Freemasonry used to be decent, although the inherent mysticism (based in Judaism and falsely identified with Pythagoras) coupled with the calumny from Catholics and some anti-Semites has resulted in it being represented as an overtly operational tool of "Satan", "NWO", etc. The Masons have the merit of being silent, they take oaths to maintain secrecy, and we do not even know how many Masons there are. Compare this state of affairs to the ruins of Theosophy. We actually owe it to individual Masons for translating historic Illuminati literature, which should put to rest the ludicrous idea that the 18th century Bavarian Illuminati is still in operation. Modern "Illuminati" has absolutely nothing to do with that one.

Freud pointed out the workings of the unconscious, but like apostle Paul, he has given a terrible formulation which has disorientated humanity. Darwin wasn't Jewish, his mention in the Protocols is an interpolation by the Christian editor, and he was actually preceded by Herbert Spencer.

Jung's analysis are pretty interesting, his assessment of Hitler, Stalin, and Mussolini is worth the read. He claimed he did not treat his patients as animals, but that he put his heart into his work.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I might be going against the conspiratorial grain here but it does appear that the "Protocols" are not quite what they are purported to be. Sorry if pointing this out offends anyone....

Extract

"If ever a piece of writing could produce mass hatred, it is this one. . . . This book is about lies and slander."
—Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is the most notorious and widely distributed antisemitic publication of modern times. Its lies about Jews, which have been repeatedly discredited, continue to circulate today, especially on the Internet. The individuals and groups who have used the Protocols are all linked by a common purpose: to spread hatred of Jews.

The Protocols is entirely a work of fiction, intentionally written to blame Jews for a variety of ills. Those who distribute it claim that it documents a Jewish conspiracy to dominate the world. The conspiracy and its alleged leaders, the so-called Elders of Zion, never existed.

THE ORIGIN OF A LIE

In 1903, portions of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion were serialized in a Russian newspaper, Znamya (The Banner). The version of the Protocols that has endured and has been translated into dozens of languages, however, was first published in Russia in 1905 as an appendix to The Great in the Small: The Coming of the Anti-Christ and the Rule of Satan on Earth,by Russian writer and mystic Sergei Nilus.

Although the exact origin of the Protocols is unknown, its intent was to portray Jews as conspirators against the state. In 24 chapters, or protocols, allegedly minutes from meetings of Jewish leaders, the Protocols "describes" the "secret plans" of Jews to rule the world by manipulating the economy, controlling the media, and fostering religious conflict.

Following the Russian Revolution of 1917, anti-Bolshevik émigrés brought the Protocols to the West. Soon after, editions circulated across Europe, the United States, South America, and Japan. An Arabic translation first appeared in the 1920s.

Beginning in 1920, auto magnate Henry Ford's newspaper, The Dearborn Independent, published a series of articles based in part on the Protocols. The International Jew, the book that included this series, was translated into at least 16 languages. Both Adolf Hitler and Joseph Goebbels, later the Nazi Minister of Propaganda, praised Ford and The International Jew.

FRAUD EXPOSED

In 1921, the London Times presented conclusive proof that the Protocols was a "clumsy plagiarism." The Times confirmed that the Protocols had been copied in large part from a French political satire that never mentioned Jews—Maurice Joly's Dialogue in Hell Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu (1864). Other investigations revealed that one chapter of a Prussian novel, Hermann Goedsche's Biarritz(1868), also "inspired" the Protocols.

THE NAZI ERA

Nazi party ideologue Alfred Rosenberg introduced Hitler to the Protocols during the early 1920s, as Hitler was developing his worldview. Hitler referred to the Protocols in some of his early political speeches, and, throughout his career, he exploited the myth that "Jewish-Bolshevists" were conspiring to control the world.

During the 1920s and 1930s, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion played an important part in the Nazis' propaganda arsenal. The Nazi party published at least 23 editions of the Protocolsbetween 1919 and 1939. Following the Nazis' seizure of power in 1933, some schools used the Protocols to indoctrinate students.

FRAUD EXPOSED

In 1935, a Swiss court fined two Nazi leaders for circulating a German-language edition of the Protocols in Berne, Switzerland. The presiding justice at the trial declared the Protocols"libelous," "obvious forgeries," and "ridiculous nonsense."

The US Senate issued a report in 1964 declaring that the Protocols were "fabricated." The Senate called the contents of the Protocols "gibberish" and criticized those who "peddled" the Protocolsfor using the same propaganda technique as Hitler.

In 1993, a Russian court ruled that Pamyat, a far-right nationalist organization, had committed an antisemitic act by publishing the Protocols.

Despite these repeated exposures of the Protocols as a fraud, it remains the most influential antisemitic text of the past one hundred years, and it continues to appeal to a variety of antisemitic individuals and groups.

THE PROTOCOLS TODAY

According to the US Department of State's "Report on Global Anti-Semitism" (2004), "The clear purpose of the [Protocols is] to incite hatred of Jews and of Israel."

In the United States and Europe, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and Holocaust deniers endorse and circulate the Protocols. Books based on the Protocols are available worldwide, even in countries with hardly any Jews such as Japan.

Many school textbooks throughout the Arab and Islamic world teach the Protocols as fact. Countless political speeches, editorials, and even children's cartoons are derived from the Protocols. In 2002, Egypt's government-sponsored television aired a miniseries based on the Protocols, an event condemned by the US State Department. The Palestinian organization Hamas draws in part on the Protocols to justify its terrorism against Israeli civilians.

The Internet has dramatically increased access to the Protocols. Even though many Web sites expose the Protocols as a fraud, the Internet has made it easy to use the Protocols to spread hatred of Jews. Today, a typical Internet search yields several hundred thousand sites that disseminate, sell, or debate the Protocols or expose them as a fraud."

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/mobile/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007058

You might say "of course, they would say that, wouldn't they?"

If they are all conspiring together, yes they would, however, if the "Protocols" were a pack of lies, they would wish to stand up to them...

 

[Aero]

I was expecting the whole science is bad speech from someone. Question. Is doing science going to attract demons to you? And that's a serious question. Rhetorical, but still very serious. Because it makes me think of the human condition in general. Like the act of being controversial in any field. The act of rebelling against anything is going to attract bad energy. That's why I'm an advocate for leaving these superstitions behind us.

If your beef is with the education system I totally get that. But I don't get this narrative of blaming a few people and forgetting these things happen everywhere. It's called politics. The Bible is full of it, and the history of your religions are full of it. People want power, they develop bias. It's not always a conspiracy to counter your spirituality. And it doesn't mean Satan was whispering in their ears. Well maybe he was, but I doubt it. Anyway I've seen nothing to convince me that survival of the fittest is wrong.

Modern psychology doesn't really follow Jung's theories. It's probably a requirement to learn them, and apply some of them. But Freud and others seemed to fuel an incentive to create new diseases. The business sense seemed to take over. Like it's not even about behavior anymore. And that's what it should be all about. You're learning about human behavior and yourself in the process, not treating a disease.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Aero - just so you know, I ended up studying Freud and Jung extensively while my wife trained as a Psychotherapist. Psychology has moved on from both but their conclusions are still in the foundations. During that time I came across a quotation from Milton which seemed to hit the point squarely....

"Much of the Soul they talk, but all awry;
And in themselves seek virtue; and to themselves
All glory arrogate, to God give none"
John Milton, Paradise Regained by John Milton
​

Jung was attracted to the occult in his pursuit of knowledge. He got some answers but, back to the thread, were those answers true?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newscientist.com/article/dn17023-why-two-geniuses-delved-into-the-occult/amp/

 

[Vytas]

Jung was decent, that why he left Freud, couldn't handle bull crap...

Eat the fish,and spit out the bones

 

[Alice]

Thank you all for your replies. english is not my first language, so sorry for any mistake. Someone asked what confuses me about the fact those guys were freemasons. I'm just gonna get 2 examples. I always believed that sex is not a sin or a bad thing. It is something that makes part of human nature. But then I opened up my eyes and started to see that everything in world media, from movies scenes to music stars, is all about sex. I know, sex sells. But there is a oversexualixation that is pretty weird. Since I believe that the world is ruled by you-know-who, I started to question my belief and if all this lets have sex all the time ideia it is right. The 20 century it is known for the sex revolution. And those ideas were basead in Freud's new discovery about human mind ande behavior. So were they using Freud 's knowlegde to persuate people to be more sexualy free? And if so, with what purpose?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Thank you all for your replies. english is not my first language, so sorry for any mistake. Someone asked what confuses me about the fact those guys were freemasons. I'm just gonna get 2 examples. I always believed that sex is not a sin or a bad thing. It is something that makes part of human nature. But then I opened up my eyes and started to see that everything in world media, from movies scenes to music stars, isso all about sex. I know, sex sells. But there is a oversexualixation that is pretty weird. Since I believe that the world is ruled by you-know-who, I started to question my belief and if all this lets have sex all the time ideia it is right. The 20 century it is known for the sex revolution. And those ideas were basead in Freud's new discovery about human mind ande behavior. So were they using Freud 's knowlegde to persuate people to be more sexualy free? And if so, with what purpose?

Is there anything inherently sinful in sex? Of course not, any more than there is something inherently sinful about food.

Sex without commitment may be wrong in the same sense that food without hunger is wrong - as you misuse them, you reap the consequences...

 

[Alice]

Sorry! I forgot the other example. Nietzsche influence on all thinkers and society from 20 century with all the "theres no such thing as right and wrong". That lead us to chaos, since theres no right and wrong. Its all relative. So were nietzsche idea his own crazy ideas then the illuminati started to using them or he was part of that secret society?

 

[z gharib]

Freud was a complete fraud and idio

"The case of Freud himself, founder of 'psychoanalysis', is quite typical in this
respect, for he never ceased to declare himself a materialist. One further remark:
why is it that the principal representatives of the new tendencies, like Einstein in
physics, Bergson in philosophy, Freud in psychology, and many others of less
importance, are almost all of Jewish origin, unless it he because there is something
involved that is closely hound up with the 'malefic' and dissolving aspect of nomadism
when it is deviated, and because that aspect must inevitably predominate in
Jews detached from their tradition?" Rene Guenon , the misdeed's of psychoanalysts 'The Reign of Quantity and The Sign of the Times'
".....that present-day
psychology considers nothing but the 'subconscious', and never
the 'superconscious', which ought logically to be its correlative;
there is no doubt that this usage expresses the idea of an extension
operating only in a downward direction, that is, toward the aspect
of things that corresponds, both here in the human being and elsewhere
in the cosmic environment, to the 'fissures' through which
the most 'malefic' influences of the subtle world penetrate, influences
having a character than can truthfully and literally be
described as 'infernal'. 2....."

.....psychoanalysts devote their attention, but with the difference
that in their case the things to be taken into consideration are
not simply human, but also to a great extent 'infra-human'; it is then
that we come into the presence, not only of a debasement, but of a
complete subversion; and every subversion, even if it only arises, at
least in the first place, from incomprehension and ignorance (than
which nothing is better adapted for exploitation to such ends), is
always inherently 'satanic' in the true sense of the word. Besides this,
the generally ignoble and repulsive character of psychoanalytical
interpretations is an entirely reliable 'mark' in this connection; and
it is particularly significant from our point of view, as has been
shown elsewhere, 4 that this very same 'mark' appears again in certain
spiritualist manifestations-anyone who sees in this no more
than a mere 'coincidence' must'surely have much good will, if
indeed he is not completely blind. In most cases the psychoanalysts
may well be quite as unconscious as are the spiritualists of what is
really involved in these matters; but the former no less than the latter
appear to be 'guided' by a subversive will making use in each case
of elements that are of the same order, if not precisely identical. This
subversive will, whatever may be the beings in which it is incarnated,
is certainly conscious enough, at least in those beings, and it
is related to intentions that are doubtless very different from any
that can be suspected by people who are only the unconscious
instruments whereby those intentions are translated into action. ...
Rene Guenon , the misdeed's of psychoanalysts 'The Reign of Quantity and The Sign of the Times'

guenon writes clearly about the misdeeds of these individuals - Bergson,Jung ,Freud and co.
in his books , the above mentioned 'Reign of Quantity ' and ' the crises of the modern world '
how this modern movements work as agents of counter tradition and subversion .

 

[DesertRose]

Can we trust those guys?

No

That lead us to chaos, since theres no right and wrong. Its all relative.

Bingo.

The Knights Templar changed their name to Freemasons.
They made Masjid Al Aqsa a stable for their horses.
They were the worst of the Crusaders.
We should just watch them and their theories go into the dustbin of history.

 

[Helioform]

I might be going against the conspiratorial grain here but it does appear that the "Protocols" are not quite what they are purported to be. Sorry if pointing this out offends anyone....

Extract

"If ever a piece of writing could produce mass hatred, it is this one. . . . This book is about lies and slander."
—Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is the most notorious and widely distributed antisemitic publication of modern times. Its lies about Jews, which have been repeatedly discredited, continue to circulate today, especially on the Internet. The individuals and groups who have used the Protocols are all linked by a common purpose: to spread hatred of Jews.

The Protocols is entirely a work of fiction, intentionally written to blame Jews for a variety of ills. Those who distribute it claim that it documents a Jewish conspiracy to dominate the world. The conspiracy and its alleged leaders, the so-called Elders of Zion, never existed.

THE ORIGIN OF A LIE

In 1903, portions of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion were serialized in a Russian newspaper, Znamya (The Banner). The version of the Protocols that has endured and has been translated into dozens of languages, however, was first published in Russia in 1905 as an appendix to The Great in the Small: The Coming of the Anti-Christ and the Rule of Satan on Earth,by Russian writer and mystic Sergei Nilus.

Although the exact origin of the Protocols is unknown, its intent was to portray Jews as conspirators against the state. In 24 chapters, or protocols, allegedly minutes from meetings of Jewish leaders, the Protocols "describes" the "secret plans" of Jews to rule the world by manipulating the economy, controlling the media, and fostering religious conflict.

Following the Russian Revolution of 1917, anti-Bolshevik émigrés brought the Protocols to the West. Soon after, editions circulated across Europe, the United States, South America, and Japan. An Arabic translation first appeared in the 1920s.

Beginning in 1920, auto magnate Henry Ford's newspaper, The Dearborn Independent, published a series of articles based in part on the Protocols. The International Jew, the book that included this series, was translated into at least 16 languages. Both Adolf Hitler and Joseph Goebbels, later the Nazi Minister of Propaganda, praised Ford and The International Jew.

FRAUD EXPOSED

In 1921, the London Times presented conclusive proof that the Protocols was a "clumsy plagiarism." The Times confirmed that the Protocols had been copied in large part from a French political satire that never mentioned Jews—Maurice Joly's Dialogue in Hell Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu (1864). Other investigations revealed that one chapter of a Prussian novel, Hermann Goedsche's Biarritz(1868), also "inspired" the Protocols.

THE NAZI ERA

Nazi party ideologue Alfred Rosenberg introduced Hitler to the Protocols during the early 1920s, as Hitler was developing his worldview. Hitler referred to the Protocols in some of his early political speeches, and, throughout his career, he exploited the myth that "Jewish-Bolshevists" were conspiring to control the world.

During the 1920s and 1930s, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion played an important part in the Nazis' propaganda arsenal. The Nazi party published at least 23 editions of the Protocolsbetween 1919 and 1939. Following the Nazis' seizure of power in 1933, some schools used the Protocols to indoctrinate students.

FRAUD EXPOSED

In 1935, a Swiss court fined two Nazi leaders for circulating a German-language edition of the Protocols in Berne, Switzerland. The presiding justice at the trial declared the Protocols"libelous," "obvious forgeries," and "ridiculous nonsense."

The US Senate issued a report in 1964 declaring that the Protocols were "fabricated." The Senate called the contents of the Protocols "gibberish" and criticized those who "peddled" the Protocolsfor using the same propaganda technique as Hitler.

In 1993, a Russian court ruled that Pamyat, a far-right nationalist organization, had committed an antisemitic act by publishing the Protocols.

Despite these repeated exposures of the Protocols as a fraud, it remains the most influential antisemitic text of the past one hundred years, and it continues to appeal to a variety of antisemitic individuals and groups.

THE PROTOCOLS TODAY

According to the US Department of State's "Report on Global Anti-Semitism" (2004), "The clear purpose of the [Protocols is] to incite hatred of Jews and of Israel."

In the United States and Europe, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and Holocaust deniers endorse and circulate the Protocols. Books based on the Protocols are available worldwide, even in countries with hardly any Jews such as Japan.

Many school textbooks throughout the Arab and Islamic world teach the Protocols as fact. Countless political speeches, editorials, and even children's cartoons are derived from the Protocols. In 2002, Egypt's government-sponsored television aired a miniseries based on the Protocols, an event condemned by the US State Department. The Palestinian organization Hamas draws in part on the Protocols to justify its terrorism against Israeli civilians.

The Internet has dramatically increased access to the Protocols. Even though many Web sites expose the Protocols as a fraud, the Internet has made it easy to use the Protocols to spread hatred of Jews. Today, a typical Internet search yields several hundred thousand sites that disseminate, sell, or debate the Protocols or expose them as a fraud."

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/mobile/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007058

You might say "of course, they would say that, wouldn't they?"

If they are all conspiring together, yes they would, however, if the "Protocols" were a pack of lies, they would wish to stand up to them...

The fraud part is the one about being a Jewish conspiracy. The rest is actually true and has been unfolding ever since the original text by Joly (who was a freemason).

I have read it all back at a time when I was not sure who exactly was running the show. The word Zion, comes from Sion or the sanskrit word for Sun. It goes back to the Priory of Sion, the secret society who was in charge of the Knights Templar in the middle ages and still exists today. The Priory (in the book Holy Blood Holy Grail) claims the Protocols are actually their own plan, and that they have been misunderstood as a malign thing rather than an attempt at putting a world leader in place that would be like a benevolent dictator.

 

[Illuminized]

I might be going against the conspiratorial grain here but it does appear that the "Protocols" are not quite what they are purported to be. Sorry if pointing this out offends anyone....

It's worth pointing out that Stalin identified anti-Semitism "as a phenomenon deeply hostile to the Soviet system". I don't think the Protocols are purely a fabrication. Just got to keep in mind that the translator, Sergei Nilus, was predisposed to mysticism.

Jung was attracted to the occult in his pursuit of knowledge. He got some answers but, back to the thread, were those answers true?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newscientist.com/article/dn17023-why-two-geniuses-delved-into-the-occult/amp/

"Even as a boy, Jung found himself drawn to the occult. This would become the root of his break with Freud." Tempted by demons or was he already familiar with it in some past life? I find the latter more plausible...

 

[elsbet]

Sorry! I forgot the other example. Nietzsche influence on all thinkers and society from 20 century with all the "theres no such thing as right and wrong". That lead us to chaos, since theres no right and wrong. Its all relative. So were nietzsche idea his own crazy ideas then the illuminati started to using them or he was part of that secret society?

Moral relativity.

We know right from wrong, inherently. I think those of us from *every* religion (or no religion), who found that our spirit recoiled at the thought, became candidates for (so-called) conspiracy theories.

I have no idea if Nietzsche was a member-- but one doesn't have to be an actual card-carrying member to support the dark agenda.

Edit
Looks like he was. I forgot about his Übermensch thing. The superman.

 

[Illuminized]

Sorry! I forgot the other example. Nietzsche influence on all thinkers and society from 20 century with all the "theres no such thing as right and wrong". That lead us to chaos, since theres no right and wrong. Its all relative. So were nietzsche idea his own crazy ideas then the illuminati started to using them or he was part of that secret society?

Nietzsche overreacted to the perverse morality of his times. He was not part of the agenda, but he certainly served them inadvertently after his death.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

It's worth pointing out that Stalin identified anti-Semitism "as a phenomenon deeply hostile to the Soviet system". I don't think the Protocols are purely a fabrication. Just got to keep in mind that the translator, Sergei Nilus, was predisposed to mysticism.

"Even as a boy, Jung found himself drawn to the occult. This would become the root of his break with Freud." Tempted by demons or was he already familiar with it in some past life? I find the latter more plausible...

What makes you believe in past lives, may I ask?